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aus+uk / uk.tech.digital-tv / Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

SubjectAuthor
* Digital HDMI modulators and LCNBob Latham
`* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNSH
 +* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNBob Latham
 |`* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNSH
 | `* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNSH
 |  `* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNBob Latham
 |   `* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNSH
 |    `* Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNBob Latham
 |     `- Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNSH
 `- Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCNBob Latham

1
Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<5951b6f09dbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 20:32:09 +0100
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 by: Bob Latham - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:32 UTC

What is the safest value to set the LCN for a digital modulator or 3?

Some value not used by Freeview obviously but where?

As with everything I do these days I consider what is the best state
to leave things should I drop dead and leave it for my wife. An
impossible thing to answer but the book that comes with one modulator
suggests 800, 801 etc.. Yes, I realise this area is reserved for
"second finds" when scanning but my aerial system is very well
filtered so no seconds and presumably Freeview will leave the 800
range alone.

So that's where I've been setting them but things are not straight
forward. I noticed though that the LCN I set in the modulator didn't
seem to make any difference, it seemed as though the TV stored them
from 800 onwards first found first stored so the lowest frequency
modulator is at 800 and the highest frequency modulator 802
regardless of the LCN settings in the modulator. Step outside the 800
range and the LCN setting works as expected.

Today I discovered that it's even more complex. JVC tvs faced with an
LCN in the 800s store the channels in frequency order but Sony TVs
use the Service ID. This means to get the same channel numbers on
both types of TV you need the frequency and the Service IDs in the
same order. Horrible.

Does anyone have a better idea for the LCN setting?

There is nothing in the 300, 400 or 900 range that I can see.

Another idea I've had is to pick numbers already used by freeview on
the assumption that if the TVs see my modulators first (lower
frequency) then the Freeview channel will become a second find and
get bounced to 800s. So maybe pick 3 LCN numbers never to be watched.
Trouble is, things change.

Is there a range of numbers reserved for none broadcast or home
users? Too much to expect I suppose?

Thanks.

Bob.

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<sdkk4a$13pb$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: i.love.s...@spam.com (SH)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:12:41 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: SH - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 21:12 UTC

On 25/07/2021 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:
> What is the safest value to set the LCN for a digital modulator or 3?
>
> Some value not used by Freeview obviously but where?
>
> As with everything I do these days I consider what is the best state
> to leave things should I drop dead and leave it for my wife. An
> impossible thing to answer but the book that comes with one modulator
> suggests 800, 801 etc.. Yes, I realise this area is reserved for
> "second finds" when scanning but my aerial system is very well
> filtered so no seconds and presumably Freeview will leave the 800
> range alone.
>
> So that's where I've been setting them but things are not straight
> forward. I noticed though that the LCN I set in the modulator didn't
> seem to make any difference, it seemed as though the TV stored them
> from 800 onwards first found first stored so the lowest frequency
> modulator is at 800 and the highest frequency modulator 802
> regardless of the LCN settings in the modulator. Step outside the 800
> range and the LCN setting works as expected.
>
> Today I discovered that it's even more complex. JVC tvs faced with an
> LCN in the 800s store the channels in frequency order but Sony TVs
> use the Service ID. This means to get the same channel numbers on
> both types of TV you need the frequency and the Service IDs in the
> same order. Horrible.
>
> Does anyone have a better idea for the LCN setting?
>
> There is nothing in the 300, 400 or 900 range that I can see.
>
> Another idea I've had is to pick numbers already used by freeview on
> the assumption that if the TVs see my modulators first (lower
> frequency) then the Freeview channel will become a second find and
> get bounced to 800s. So maybe pick 3 LCN numbers never to be watched.
> Trouble is, things change.
>
> Is there a range of numbers reserved for none broadcast or home
> users? Too much to expect I suppose?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>

I have 10 analogue monds here. When I switch to 10 HDMI mods, I'll be:

Setting them all in frequency order at 50 to 68

and set the LCNs to 990, 991 ..... 998 and 999 in the same order as the
mods frequencies.

Glad you are getting on well with the Triax TMB2000... Did you manage to
sort out your Magic eyes picking up stray Brierley Hill? :-)

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<5952110d57bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:56:25 +0100
Organization: None
Lines: 57
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 11:56 UTC

In article <sdkk4a$13pb$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
> On 25/07/2021 20:32, Bob Latham wrote:

> > What is the safest value to set the LCN for a digital modulator
> > or 3?

> I have 10 analogue monds here. When I switch to 10 HDMI mods, I'll
> be:

Be careful which modulators you buy. The Edision DVB-T modulator seen
here...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edision-HDMI-Modulator-Full-Distribution-Black/dp/B00KBXKJ2A
as far as I can see, has a problem with the LCN setting. Even if set
to ITC it doesn't have any effect at all on the TVs in our house but
does work with a Sony DVD recorder from 2005, the only item to
respond.

On the other hand, the dual Conexer DMHD02 works fine and you can set
one LCN to 305 and the other to 226 as an example and they work fine
just so long as you don't allocate in the 800s.

> Setting them all in frequency order at 50 to 68

Yes I can see why. No possibility of there every being a broadcast on
those channels ever again and you can filter them out permanently
from the aerial.

I use the very low end for my modulators simply because it means the
TVs will "see" then first when tuning and that helps if you're aim is
to use the LCN 800 group. I may change on that later especially if I
replace the Edision.

> and set the LCNs to 990, 991 ..... 998 and 999 in the same order as
> the mods frequencies.

Have you any reason to consider the 900s to be safe at all?

> Glad you are getting on well with the Triax TMB2000... Did you
> manage to sort out your Magic eyes picking up stray Brierley Hill?

Pretty much yes, an attenuator fitted between the magic eye module
and the TV set of a few dBs drops the signal picked up by the sensor
lead into the noise floor whilst making the required signal only
marginally weaker.

Actually, I had a problem on Saturday after a temporary lash up to
get the dual conexer working and had BH leaking in all over. Turned
out, the metre of coax I'd used wasn't double screened. I'm now
looking at my coax bits bin and thinking I should throw away anything
not double screened.

Thanks.

Bob.

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<sdmqih$br5$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: i.love.s...@spam.com (SH)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:14:55 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: SH - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:14 UTC

Conexer... is that a brand via Labgear?

I want to switch to digital mods from Analogue ones but the cost of
conversion will not go past SWMBO that easily.... :-(

I did find some Satlink ones on AliExpress that was the cheapest I'd
ever seen:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32996105114.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7da36ef639Hf4l&algo_pvid=bad9dc9f-ccca-460e-9935-810ba9ae2031&algo_exp_id=bad9dc9f-ccca-460e-9935-810ba9ae2031-0

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<sdmr13$i2r$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: i.love.s...@spam.com (SH)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:22:41 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: SH - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:22 UTC

On 26/07/2021 18:14, SH wrote:
>
> Conexer... is that a brand via Labgear?
>
> I want to switch to digital mods from Analogue ones but the cost of
> conversion will not go past SWMBO that easily.... :-(
>
> I did find some Satlink ones on AliExpress that was the cheapest I'd
> ever seen:
>
>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32996105114.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7da36ef639Hf4l&algo_pvid=bad9dc9f-ccca-460e-9935-810ba9ae2031&algo_exp_id=bad9dc9f-ccca-460e-9935-810ba9ae2031-0
>

Doh... not Labgear.. Antiference...

Had a quick online shopping browse....

https://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=conexer

Ouch.....

The quad unit is more than double than the cost of 4 individual satlinks!

The dual unit is more than double the cost of 2 individual satlinks.....

Mind you, it can deal with composite video which teh Satlinks cannot do
which would suit my CCTV cameras...

I had thought about upgrading my CCTV cams to AH/TVI/CVI and use a
converter to HDMI to then us ethe Satlinks on.

https://www.videcon.co.uk/ahd-tvi-cvi-video-to-hdmi-converter-vhd-ahd-conv/

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<595236e228bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 19:49:38 +0100
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:49 UTC

In article <sdmr13$i2r$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
> On 26/07/2021 18:14, SH wrote:

> I want to switch to digital mods from Analogue ones but the cost
> of conversion will not go past SWMBO that easily.... :-(

Oh yes, not cheap.

> I did find some Satlink ones on AliExpress that was the cheapest
> I'd ever seen:

> The quad unit is more than double than the cost of 4 individual
> satlinks!

Yes and too much of eggs in one basket plus I believe (could be
wrong) that the device uses two *adjacent* UHF channels to deliver 4
signal paths.

> The dual unit is more than double the cost of 2 individual
> satlinks.....

For me, eventually I think I'll end up with two of these. No
requirement for adjacent UHF channels.

Also power is an issue. These units draw around 10 watts each 24/7
but if you do two in one box it's a bit more efficient.

> Mind you, it can deal with composite video which teh Satlinks
> cannot do which would suit my CCTV cameras...

Are you sure? I've got one and I've seen no sign of that.

> I had thought about upgrading my CCTV cams to AH/TVI/CVI and use a
> converter to HDMI to then us ethe Satlinks on.

> https://www.videcon.co.uk/ahd-tvi-cvi-video-to-hdmi-converter-vhd-ahd-conv/

Don't have much experience with CCTV stuff.

Bob.

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<sdn4lr$12dl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: i.love.s...@spam.com (SH)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:07:22 +0100
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 by: SH - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:07 UTC

>
>> The quad unit is more than double than the cost of 4 individual
>> satlinks!
>
> Yes and too much of eggs in one basket plus I believe (could be
> wrong) that the device uses two *adjacent* UHF channels to deliver 4
> signal paths.

Adjacent channels are not an issue for DTT, I've seen DTT transmitters
use 3 DTT channels in consecutive order.

DTT does not have vestigial sidebands (VSB) or Double sidebands (DSB)
like analogue does.

>> The dual unit is more than double the cost of 2 individual
>> satlinks.....
>
> For me, eventually I think I'll end up with two of these. No
> requirement for adjacent UHF channels.

Adjacent digital channels are not an issue really.

> Also power is an issue. These units draw around 10 watts each 24/7
> but if you do two in one box it's a bit more efficient.
>
>> Mind you, it can deal with composite video which teh Satlinks
>> cannot do which would suit my CCTV cameras...
>
> Are you sure? I've got one and I've seen no sign of that.

Well teh models I've been looking at were analogue video and stereo
audio inputs and they didn't have HDMI inputs....

It does sound you and I are looking at different models as you use HDMI
outputs from yoru set top boxes?

The ones I saw were:

https://cpc.farnell.com/antiference/dmsd01/digital-modulator-single-sd-dvb/dp/AP02862?st=conexor

https://cpc.farnell.com/antiference/dmsd02/digital-modulator-twin-sd-dvb/dp/AP02864?st=conexor

https://cpc.farnell.com/antiference/dmsd04/digital-modulator-quad-sd-dvb/dp/AP02865?st=conexor

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:39:25 +0100
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:39 UTC

In article <sdn4lr$12dl$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:

> >
> >> The quad unit is more than double than the cost of 4 individual
> >> satlinks!
> >
> > Yes and too much of eggs in one basket plus I believe (could be
> > wrong) that the device uses two *adjacent* UHF channels to
> > deliver 4 signal paths.

> Adjacent channels are not an issue for DTT, I've seen DTT
> transmitters use 3 DTT channels in consecutive order.

I know that but that isn't the point of interest. I have 3 UHF
channels here that don't have anything detectable on them from the
aerial. They are C22, C25, C28 and I use those for my modulators just
in case. That's why I'm put off by two *forced* adjacent channels.

> Adjacent digital channels are not an issue really.

Not in the way you thought I meant no but that's not my reasoning.

> > Also power is an issue. These units draw around 10 watts each
> > 24/7 but if you do two in one box it's a bit more efficient.
> >
> >> Mind you, it can deal with composite video which teh Satlinks
> >> cannot do which would suit my CCTV cameras...
> >
> > Are you sure? I've got one and I've seen no sign of that.

> Well teh models I've been looking at were analogue video and
> stereo audio inputs and they didn't have HDMI inputs....

> It does sound you and I are looking at different models as you use
> HDMI outputs from yoru set top boxes?

Indeed.

Bob.

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<sdoo6h$em6$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: i.love.s...@spam.com (SH)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 11:46:28 +0100
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 by: SH - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 10:46 UTC

On 26/07/2021 21:39, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <sdn4lr$12dl$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
> SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> The quad unit is more than double than the cost of 4 individual
>>>> satlinks!
>>>
>>> Yes and too much of eggs in one basket plus I believe (could be
>>> wrong) that the device uses two *adjacent* UHF channels to
>>> deliver 4 signal paths.
>
>> Adjacent channels are not an issue for DTT, I've seen DTT
>> transmitters use 3 DTT channels in consecutive order.
>
> I know that but that isn't the point of interest. I have 3 UHF
> channels here that don't have anything detectable on them from the
> aerial. They are C22, C25, C28 and I use those for my modulators just
> in case. That's why I'm put off by two *forced* adjacent channels.
>

I use the Triax TMB2000 to channel shift from the TV aerials to free up
ch 55 & 56 and resolve co-channel transmitters ..... (before Mux 8 got
closed) from both Sandy & Oxford

So CH 55 and 56 from both Oxford and Sandy got shifted down to Ch 28, 30
and 38 and 39...... (and I have Sutton Coldfield, Oxford, Sandy Heath
and Waltham all combined here)

So if you can get a cable up with the modulator outputs onto one of the
spare aerial inputs, it s a doddle. :-)

S.

Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN

<595abbfbd4bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Digital HDMI modulators and LCN
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:53:04 +0100
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 by: Bob Latham - Thu, 12 Aug 2021 07:53 UTC

In article <sdkk4a$13pb$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:

> I have 10 analogue monds here. When I switch to 10 HDMI mods, I'll
> be:

> Setting them all in frequency order at 50 to 68

> and set the LCNs to 990, 991 ..... 998 and 999 in the same order as
> the mods frequencies.

I think you may need to revise that plan..

Testing I've done on TVs here (6 of them) says that although there is
no issue setting the LCN in the modulator to any 3 digits you like,
it's a different story as to if the TVs will accept it.

Any LCN set in the 800s or 900s is ignored on all my TVs. The
channel(s) are then pushed to 800, 801, 802 etc. first come first
served basis.

I can't be 100% certain it's the TVs rejecting 800,900 LCN, it could
be the modulators but I doubt it, certainly no indication of that.

Setting LCNs in 200 and 300 ranges worked fine.

YMMV.

Cheers,

Bob.

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