Having landed myself with much too much work I knew there was only one
thing I coud do: take a day off and jump on the train for a day out. I
decided that Bennerley Viaduct, recently opened to pedestrians, would
be a good place to visit, especially as there are plenty of waterways
to walk along in the area.

The first hurdle was, as ever, the byzantine ticketing system. I
normally book with GA (who use Trainline) and, if travelling north,
tend to drive a few miles to Audley End where I can catch the XC
service to Peterborough or Birmingham, saving a change of train. The
booking engine offered me reasonable fares and I almost went ahead.
But it occurred to me that I'd probably need to use EMR between Ely
and Nottingham. As I no longer needed XC maybe I should try booking
from my local station, Bishop's Stortford, after all? I was offered
some very expensive fares, via London, but suppressed them by adding
Cambridge as a via point. I now had fares to Ilkeston which were LOWER
than from Audley End, despite the distance being longer.

I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
said was valid only via Nottingham.

When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.

I was running early on the way back and faced a 40-minute wait at
Nottingham. I wondered how the grippers would react if I tried to
retrun via London, as my ticket didn't seem to prohibit such a
journey. But rather than chance it I waited for the train in place
serving beer. Better safe than sorry.

My complaint? Having several, apparently indistinguishable tickets for
each fare type and route. It's crazy. I still don't know why my ticket
was cheaper than others. My booked return journey was via Nottingham,
Leicester and Peterborough so it isn't, say, a TOC lock.

Anyway, it was a good journey. A 379 to Cambridge, a Basil to Ely, a
156 (not 158) to Nottingham and a 195 to Ilkeston. What a contrast the
last one is to a Pacer, which is what I expect they'd have put up with
a couple of years ago.

The return was another 195, a 158, an ex-Gatex 387 and a 720. Seven
types of train, all on time, all clean and tidy. And all very lightly
loaded. The bulk of my journey in each direction was on the two-car
EMR service. There were about three or four people in my carriage in
each direction, despite the outward journey being at what I would
expect to be a busy time of 0844 from Ely.

But the viaduct is superb. Well worth my battle with the booking
engine and the cost of fares, with railcard, of under £60. And I got
to see a small industrial engine adjacent ot the main line somehwre,
but I've forgotton where!

On 20.01.2022 20:29, Ken wrote:

<SNIP>
> The first hurdle was, as ever, the byzantine ticketing system. I
> normally book with GA (who use Trainline) and, if travelling north,
> tend to drive a few miles to Audley End where I can catch the XC
> service to Peterborough or Birmingham, saving a change of train. The
> booking engine offered me reasonable fares and I almost went ahead.
> But it occurred to me that I'd probably need to use EMR between Ely
> and Nottingham. As I no longer needed XC maybe I should try booking
> from my local station, Bishop's Stortford, after all? I was offered
> some very expensive fares, via London, but suppressed them by adding
> Cambridge as a via point. I now had fares to Ilkeston which were LOWER
> than from Audley End, despite the distance being longer.
>
> I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
> fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
> been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
> via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
> selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
> super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
> said was valid only via Nottingham.
>
> When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
> nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
> main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
> note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
> or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
> ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
> happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
</SNIP>

Ken, glad you enjoyed the trip. I have followed the Bennerley Viaduct
story with great interest.

I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
traveller. Here the only distinction is whether you are travelling on a
regional, Intercity or ICE train.

Just my little rant. :-)

Am 21.01.2022 um 10:35 schrieb Eddie King:
> On 20.01.2022 20:29, Ken wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>> The first hurdle was, as ever, the byzantine ticketing system. I
>> normally book with GA (who use Trainline) and, if travelling north,
>> tend to drive a few miles to Audley End where I can catch the XC
>> service to Peterborough or Birmingham, saving a change of train. The
>> booking engine offered me reasonable fares and I almost went ahead.
>> But it occurred to me that I'd probably need to use EMR between Ely
>> and Nottingham. As I no longer needed XC maybe I should try booking
>> from my local station, Bishop's Stortford, after all? I was offered
>> some very expensive fares, via London, but suppressed them by adding
>> Cambridge as a via point. I now had fares to Ilkeston which were LOWER
>> than from Audley End, despite the distance being longer.
>>
>> I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
>> fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
>> been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
>> via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
>> selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
>> super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
>> said was valid only via Nottingham.
>>
>> When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
>> nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
>> main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
>> note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
>> or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
>> ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
>> happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
> </SNIP>
>
> Ken, glad you enjoyed the trip. I have followed the Bennerley Viaduct
> story with great interest.
>
> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
> traveller. Here the only distinction is whether you are travelling on a
> regional, Intercity or ICE train.

Actually, you are wrong in your interpretation of the German situation;
it is pretty similar to the British situation (simple for 99% of the
passengers, difficult when exploring edge cases).

The main difference is that the German ticketing system does not print
routing codes but routing points, e.g. Heidelberg - Mannheim / Darmstadt
- Frankfurt means the ticket from Heidelberg to Frankfurt is valid via
Mannheim, via Darmstadt and all routes in between those two extremes.

The standard routes are always covered but with a route based ICE ticket
from Munich to Hamburg, are you allowed to go via Nuremberg - Frankfurt
- Cologne? Are you allowed to go via Mannheim - Frankfurt - Erfurt -
Berlin?
When buying a train-based ticket, the surprise is more in the fare than
in validity: when there wer building works near Bad Hersfeld, the IC
line Farankfurt - Erfurt was diverted via Kassel and Bebra. Due to the
need of reversing in Kassel, they scheduled an official stop there.
Unwanted side-effect: the ticketing system asked for a higher price for
a ticket from Frankfurt to Erfurt, even thought he detour was not
voluntary (according to the ticketing rules, the usual price would have
been applied).

Rolf

On 21.01.2022 11:18, Rolf Mantel wrote:

>
> Actually, you are wrong in your interpretation of the German situation;
> it is pretty similar to the British situation (simple for 99% of the
> passengers, difficult when exploring edge cases).
>

Of course there well always be exceptional cases, but I think you might
have missed the point I was trying to make, namely, that compared to the
almost inpenetrable jungle of the UK ticketing system (at least to an
infrequent traveller), here it is fairly simple and a great deal easier
to understand. Also the DB Navigator does make ticketing enquiries
and/or purchase quite straightforward.

On 21/01/2022 09:35, Eddie King wrote:

> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
> traveller.

We have that. It's just expensive to buy such tickets, and people buy
cheaper options.

Don't Germans have to know what is and isn't an intercity train, and it
is more important to know who the operator is than here?

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/01/2022 09:35, Eddie King wrote:
>
>> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
>> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
>> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
>> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
>> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
>> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
>> traveller.
>
> We have that. It's just expensive to buy such tickets, and people buy
> cheaper options.
>
> Don't Germans have to know what is and isn't an intercity train, and it
> is more important to know who the operator is than here?

But that’s very easy because the train number (shown on all information
displays) starts IC for InterCity trains, EC for EuroCity trains (same
pricing) and ICE for ICE trains.

--
Jeremy Double

Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 20.01.2022 20:29, Ken wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>> The first hurdle was, as ever, the byzantine ticketing system. I
>> normally book with GA (who use Trainline) and, if travelling north,
>> tend to drive a few miles to Audley End where I can catch the XC
>> service to Peterborough or Birmingham, saving a change of train. The
>> booking engine offered me reasonable fares and I almost went ahead.
>> But it occurred to me that I'd probably need to use EMR between Ely
>> and Nottingham. As I no longer needed XC maybe I should try booking
>> from my local station, Bishop's Stortford, after all? I was offered
>> some very expensive fares, via London, but suppressed them by adding
>> Cambridge as a via point. I now had fares to Ilkeston which were LOWER
>> than from Audley End, despite the distance being longer.
>>
>> I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
>> fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
>> been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
>> via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
>> selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
>> super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
>> said was valid only via Nottingham.
>>
>> When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
>> nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
>> main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
>> note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
>> or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
>> ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
>> happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
> </SNIP>
>
> Ken, glad you enjoyed the trip. I have followed the Bennerley Viaduct
> story with great interest.
>
> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
> traveller. Here the only distinction is whether you are travelling on a
> regional, Intercity or ICE train.
>

That in itself is a distinction which would be unworkable in the UK.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <j9bjugdp0p6dr7cbfe96f299lbbsb4c3mv@4ax.com>, at 19:29:36 on
Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:

>I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
>fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
>been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
>via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
>selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
>super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
>said was valid only via Nottingham.

As ever, the Balkanisation is almost entirely due to various "cut price
deals", and a certain way to circumvent the grief is to buy an SOR.

Or you can chip away at the
cheaper-fare-for-accepting-ever-more-restrictions until diminishing
returns kicks in.

>When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
>nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
>main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
>note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
>or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
>ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
>happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
>
>I was running early on the way back and faced a 40-minute wait at
>Nottingham. I wondered how the grippers would react if I tried to
>retrun via London, as my ticket didn't seem to prohibit such a
>journey. But rather than chance it I waited for the train in place
>serving beer. Better safe than sorry.
>
>My complaint? Having several, apparently indistinguishable tickets for
>each fare type and route. It's crazy. I still don't know why my ticket
>was cheaper than others. My booked return journey was via Nottingham,
>Leicester and Peterborough so it isn't, say, a TOC lock.

There is some specific "Bermuda Triangle" effect in the West Midlands,
for people travelling from East Anglia.

I think it's related to routes where pricing for routes into Birmingham
from the east has been more than from Derby/Nottingham towards the
south. As a result a friend was able to get a ticket to somewhere in the
vicinity of Burton On Trent, via Derby, much cheaper, despite it being
noticeably further.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/01/2022 19:32, Jeremy Double wrote:
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 21/01/2022 09:35, Eddie King wrote:
>>
>>> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
>>> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
>>> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
>>> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
>>> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
>>> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
>>> traveller.
>>
>> We have that. It's just expensive to buy such tickets, and people buy
>> cheaper options.
>>
>> Don't Germans have to know what is and isn't an intercity train, and it
>> is more important to know who the operator is than here?
>
> But that’s very easy because the train number (shown on all information
> displays) starts IC for InterCity trains, EC for EuroCity trains (same
> pricing) and ICE for ICE trains.

I've seen people using the wrong tickets on Frankfurt Flughafen<>Hbf
trains. And AIUI there are places in the far northwest where you can't
assume a white train with a red stripe needs an IC ticket.

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/01/2022 19:32, Jeremy Double wrote:
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 21/01/2022 09:35, Eddie King wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have to say that, being used to the ticketing process here in Germany,
>>>> I find the UK ticketing process an inpenetrable maze. Utterly ridiculous
>>>> in my humble opinion, how can anyone understand it? Why can't it be
>>>> simplified with a ticket from A to B useable on almost every route that
>>>> gets you there at more or less any time of the day without having to
>>>> look up a number of restriction codes there to trap the unwary
>>>> traveller.
>>>
>>> We have that. It's just expensive to buy such tickets, and people buy
>>> cheaper options.
>>>
>>> Don't Germans have to know what is and isn't an intercity train, and it
>>> is more important to know who the operator is than here?
>>
>> But that’s very easy because the train number (shown on all information
>> displays) starts IC for InterCity trains, EC for EuroCity trains (same
>> pricing) and ICE for ICE trains.
>
> I've seen people using the wrong tickets on Frankfurt Flughafen<>Hbf
> trains. And AIUI there are places in the far northwest where you can't
> assume a white train with a red stripe needs an IC ticket.

Wrong tickets between Frankfurt Flughafen and Hauptbahnhof have become much
less significant since they instituted the separate Fernbahnhof and
Regionalbahnhof. I remember when it was maybe 3 or 5 Deutschmarks Zuschlag
if you got on the wrong train, and IIRC that applied to D trains as well as
ICs.

--
Jeremy Double

In message <fbmnug1f1vb87ot442rq9dkbbckb84ca5q@4ax.com>, at 10:20:02 on
Sat, 22 Jan 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 07:16:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <j9bjugdp0p6dr7cbfe96f299lbbsb4c3mv@4ax.com>, at 19:29:36 on
>>Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>>I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
>>>fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
>>>been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
>>>via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
>>>selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
>>>super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
>>>said was valid only via Nottingham.
>>
>>As ever, the Balkanisation is almost entirely due to various "cut price
>>deals", and a certain way to circumvent the grief is to buy an SOR.
>
>Well, yes, but my super off peak didn't seem to apply any real
>restrictions whatsoever other than via Nottingham. There didn't seem
>to be a peak that I was banned from. Getting to Ilkeston other than
>via Nottingham is possible, via Sheffield, but not a journey that an
>OJP would offer.
>>
>>Or you can chip away at the
>>cheaper-fare-for-accepting-ever-more-restrictions until diminishing
>>returns kicks in.
>>
>>>When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
>>>nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
>>>main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
>>>note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
>>>or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
>>>ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
>>>happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
>>>
>>>I was running early on the way back and faced a 40-minute wait at
>>>Nottingham. I wondered how the grippers would react if I tried to
>>>retrun via London, as my ticket didn't seem to prohibit such a
>>>journey. But rather than chance it I waited for the train in place
>>>serving beer. Better safe than sorry.
>>>
>>>My complaint? Having several, apparently indistinguishable tickets for
>>>each fare type and route. It's crazy. I still don't know why my ticket
>>>was cheaper than others. My booked return journey was via Nottingham,
>>>Leicester and Peterborough so it isn't, say, a TOC lock.
>>
>>There is some specific "Bermuda Triangle" effect in the West Midlands,
>>for people travelling from East Anglia.
>>
>>I think it's related to routes where pricing for routes into Birmingham
>>from the east has been more than from Derby/Nottingham towards the
>>south. As a result a friend was able to get a ticket to somewhere in the
>>vicinity of Burton On Trent, via Derby, much cheaper, despite it being
>>noticeably further.
>
>I expect, as ever, the tiniest hint that anyone could game the system,
>even if it's just one bloke called Stan, causes the railways to impose
>rule after rule. q.v. ALRR restrictions.

Many of the restrictions are designed to permit the sale of
locally-priced cheaper fares (which are needed for both political and
pragmatic reasons) co-existing with longer distance fares that go
through one of the cheaper areas.

That's also the reason why split-ticketing works, although of course
splitting tickets will almost always restrict the routing you can use
because you are constrained to travel through all the split-points.

Mobile phones are anther industry where the tariff is highly aligned
with an anti-gaming philosophy. For example, now we've dropped out of
the EU's no-roaming-charges regime, some operators have decided to
continue with a poor relation, with restrictions such as "free roaming,
but only for 180 days a year". Which means you can't be permanently
using a SIM roaming from another territory.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <fbmnug1f1vb87ot442rq9dkbbckb84ca5q@4ax.com>, at 10:20:02 on
> Sat, 22 Jan 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 07:16:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <j9bjugdp0p6dr7cbfe96f299lbbsb4c3mv@4ax.com>, at 19:29:36 on
>>> Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I was offered very many fares. I ws offered one very cheap advance
>>>> fare but it was later than I wanted to travel, but there must have
>>>> been about eight different return fares offered, from super off-peak
>>>> via off-peak to open, plus the option to click to see even more. I
>>>> selected the cheapest fare offered for the trains I wanted to use, a
>>>> super off-peak. I clicked to read about the restrictions and all it
>>>> said was valid only via Nottingham.
>>>
>>> As ever, the Balkanisation is almost entirely due to various "cut price
>>> deals", and a certain way to circumvent the grief is to buy an SOR.
>>
>> Well, yes, but my super off peak didn't seem to apply any real
>> restrictions whatsoever other than via Nottingham. There didn't seem
>> to be a peak that I was banned from. Getting to Ilkeston other than
>> via Nottingham is possible, via Sheffield, but not a journey that an
>> OJP would offer.
>>>
>>> Or you can chip away at the
>>> cheaper-fare-for-accepting-ever-more-restrictions until diminishing
>>> returns kicks in.
>>>
>>>> When I collected the physical tickets I saw the restriction code, CJ.
>>>> nre.co.uk describes the restriction as barring me from some Midland
>>>> main line trains that I was never going to go anywhere near. There's a
>>>> note referring you to restriction 2V when the route is not via London
>>>> or via Peterborough (which seems to cover my journey) that seems to
>>>> ban morning peak travel, but it isn't clear and the grippers were
>>>> happy enough wtih the ticket I proffered.
>>>>
>>>> I was running early on the way back and faced a 40-minute wait at
>>>> Nottingham. I wondered how the grippers would react if I tried to
>>>> retrun via London, as my ticket didn't seem to prohibit such a
>>>> journey. But rather than chance it I waited for the train in place
>>>> serving beer. Better safe than sorry.
>>>>
>>>> My complaint? Having several, apparently indistinguishable tickets for
>>>> each fare type and route. It's crazy. I still don't know why my ticket
>>>> was cheaper than others. My booked return journey was via Nottingham,
>>>> Leicester and Peterborough so it isn't, say, a TOC lock.
>>>
>>> There is some specific "Bermuda Triangle" effect in the West Midlands,
>>> for people travelling from East Anglia.
>>>
>>> I think it's related to routes where pricing for routes into Birmingham
>>> from the east has been more than from Derby/Nottingham towards the
>>> south. As a result a friend was able to get a ticket to somewhere in the
>>> vicinity of Burton On Trent, via Derby, much cheaper, despite it being
>>> noticeably further.
>>
>> I expect, as ever, the tiniest hint that anyone could game the system,
>> even if it's just one bloke called Stan, causes the railways to impose
>> rule after rule. q.v. ALRR restrictions.
>
> Many of the restrictions are designed to permit the sale of
> locally-priced cheaper fares (which are needed for both political and
> pragmatic reasons) co-existing with longer distance fares that go
> through one of the cheaper areas.
>
> That's also the reason why split-ticketing works, although of course
> splitting tickets will almost always restrict the routing you can use
> because you are constrained to travel through all the split-points.
>
> Mobile phones are anther industry where the tariff is highly aligned
> with an anti-gaming philosophy. For example, now we've dropped out of
> the EU's no-roaming-charges regime, some operators have decided to
> continue with a poor relation, with restrictions such as "free roaming,
> but only for 180 days a year". Which means you can't be permanently
> using a SIM roaming from another territory.

As far as I know, even when we were in the EU you weren’t supposed to be
permanently roaming. It’s been in the small print. Interestingly many EU
operators still include UK in their free roaming bundles. I’ve not done an
exhaustive check, but the few packages I checked were like that. The other
general impression I gained was that EU sim only deals were more expensive
than ours.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:20:02 +0000, Ken wrote:
> Well, yes, but my super off peak didn't seem to apply any real
> restrictions whatsoever other than via Nottingham. There didn't seem to
> be a peak that I was banned from. Getting to Ilkeston other than via
> Nottingham is possible, via Sheffield, but not a journey that an OJP
> would offer.

That's one thing that does annoy me - Off peak tickets that don't have a
time restriction.

Unless it's changed recently, the only period return between Sheffield
and Crewe is an Off Peak ticket - with restriction code 8A, "Valid on any
train". In my opinion, all tickets with that restriction should be
changed to anytime returns.

Of course there is a reason - this ticket is valid only for one day on
the outward journey, rather than four, and bans break of journey. But
that's hardly a good reason to call it "off peak".

If the ticketing system is supposed to be "simplified", the only
difference between Anytime, Off Peak, and Super Off Peak should be the
time you're allowed to use it.

Mike

In message <ssh551$v2i$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:41 on Sat, 22 Jan
2022, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:20:02 +0000, Ken wrote:
>> Well, yes, but my super off peak didn't seem to apply any real
>> restrictions whatsoever other than via Nottingham. There didn't seem to
>> be a peak that I was banned from. Getting to Ilkeston other than via
>> Nottingham is possible, via Sheffield, but not a journey that an OJP
>> would offer.
>
>That's one thing that does annoy me - Off peak tickets that don't have a
>time restriction.
>
>Unless it's changed recently, the only period return between Sheffield
>and Crewe is an Off Peak ticket - with restriction code 8A, "Valid on any
>train". In my opinion, all tickets with that restriction should be
>changed to anytime returns.

Anytime Day Return, perhaps.

>Of course there is a reason - this ticket is valid only for one day on
>the outward journey, rather than four, and bans break of journey. But
>that's hardly a good reason to call it "off peak".
>
>If the ticketing system is supposed to be "simplified", the only
>difference between Anytime, Off Peak, and Super Off Peak should be the
>time you're allowed to use it.
>
>Mike

--
Roland Perry

On 22/01/2022 14:42, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 10:20:02 +0000, Ken wrote:
>> Well, yes, but my super off peak didn't seem to apply any real
>> restrictions whatsoever other than via Nottingham. There didn't seem to
>> be a peak that I was banned from. Getting to Ilkeston other than via
>> Nottingham is possible, via Sheffield, but not a journey that an OJP
>> would offer.
>
> That's one thing that does annoy me - Off peak tickets that don't have a
> time restriction.
>
> Unless it's changed recently, the only period return between Sheffield
> and Crewe is an Off Peak ticket - with restriction code 8A, "Valid on any
> train". In my opinion, all tickets with that restriction should be
> changed to anytime returns.
>
> Of course there is a reason - this ticket is valid only for one day on
> the outward journey, rather than four, and bans break of journey. But
> that's hardly a good reason to call it "off peak".
>
> If the ticketing system is supposed to be "simplified", the only
> difference between Anytime, Off Peak, and Super Off Peak should be the
> time you're allowed to use it.

Another reason for having "off peak" tickets valid all day is so they
can be unavailable on the train, forcing anyone who didn't buy before
boarding to cough up a not-a-penalty-fare for the "Anytime" ticket.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>> As far as I know, even when we were in the EU you weren’t supposed to be
>> permanently roaming. It’s been in the small print. Interestingly many EU
>> operators still include UK in their free roaming bundles. I’ve not done an
>> exhaustive check, but the few packages I checked were like that.
>
> I believe you're correct - there is a "reasonable use" roaming
> clause in the contract for both my UK and Romanian SIM cards.
> That said, my UK SIM has now been roaming for a decade and
> Vodafone have never complained - but I do take care to very
> rarely actively use it. (I have it in my phone's second SIM slot
> so it is always connected to the network - but I rarely make
> calls and don't enable data; the only reasons I keep it are
> sentimentality and because Vodafone's daily flat-rate global
> roaming facility is particularly handy in China to get Internet
> without the great firewall.)
>
>> The other
>> general impression I gained was that EU sim only deals were more expensive
>> than ours.
>
> Seems implausible. UK internet (and who uses a mobile for anything
> else these days?) is far from cheap, it seems unlikely that would
> be any different for mobile. My Romanian SIM-only contract gives
> unlimited domestic calls/texts, 20GB of data, 300mins of
> international calls, and of course free EU roaming for
> 8eur/month. The nearest equivalent Vodafone deal I can find is
> £10/month.
>

I was more thinking of Western European contracts. Germany seems to be more
expensive than UK (and curiously bills on a 4 week rather than a monthly
cycle). Eastern countries are likely to be cheaper because of the generally
lower wage levels. I guess each market charges whatever it can get away
with.

Am 21.03.2022 um 08:28 schrieb Tweed:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>> As far as I know, even when we were in the EU you weren’t supposed to be
>>> permanently roaming. It’s been in the small print. Interestingly many EU
>>> operators still include UK in their free roaming bundles. I’ve not done an
>>> exhaustive check, but the few packages I checked were like that.
>>
>> I believe you're correct - there is a "reasonable use" roaming
>> clause in the contract for both my UK and Romanian SIM cards.
>> That said, my UK SIM has now been roaming for a decade and
>> Vodafone have never complained - but I do take care to very
>> rarely actively use it. (I have it in my phone's second SIM slot
>> so it is always connected to the network - but I rarely make
>> calls and don't enable data; the only reasons I keep it are
>> sentimentality and because Vodafone's daily flat-rate global
>> roaming facility is particularly handy in China to get Internet
>> without the great firewall.)
>>
>>> The other
>>> general impression I gained was that EU sim only deals were more expensive
>>> than ours.
>>
>> Seems implausible. UK internet (and who uses a mobile for anything
>> else these days?) is far from cheap, it seems unlikely that would
>> be any different for mobile. My Romanian SIM-only contract gives
>> unlimited domestic calls/texts, 20GB of data, 300mins of
>> international calls, and of course free EU roaming for
>> 8eur/month. The nearest equivalent Vodafone deal I can find is
>> £10/month.
>
> I was more thinking of Western European contracts. Germany seems to be more
> expensive than UK (and curiously bills on a 4 week rather than a monthly
> cycle). Eastern countries are likely to be cheaper because of the generally
> lower wage levels. I guess each market charges whatever it can get away
> with.

German mobile phone used to be quite expensive, due to the very
competitive auctions for UMTS frequencies (I haven't seen 4-week billing
but that might be a sales trick by one carrier to make the prices look
lower, my SIMs have monthly bills).
Austrian mobile phone used to be quite cheap, because they were making
their money from the tourists' roaming charges.

With new EU regulations, the prices are likely to align a bit mroe in
the long term.