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aus+uk / uk.tech.digital-tv / Re: Bilsdale

SubjectAuthor
* Bilsdalewilliamwright
+* Re: BilsdaleSH
|+- Re: BilsdaleSH
|+* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
||+* Re: BilsdaleAndy Burns
|||+* Re: BilsdaleMB
||||+* Re: BilsdaleTweed
|||||`* Re: BilsdaleWoody
||||| +* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
||||| |+* Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
||||| ||`* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
||||| || +* Re: BilsdaleJava Jive
||||| || |`- Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
||||| || +- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
||||| || `* Re: BilsdaleRoderick Stewart
||||| ||  `* Re: BilsdaleSH
||||| ||   `- Re: BilsdaleJava Jive
||||| |`* Re: BilsdaleMax Demian
||||| | +- Re: BilsdaleJava Jive
||||| | `* Re: Bilsdalecharles
||||| |  `* Re: BilsdaleMB
||||| |   `* Re: Bilsdalecharles
||||| |    `- Re: BilsdalePaul Ratcliffe
||||| +* Re: BilsdaleTweed
||||| |+* Re: BilsdaleDavid Woolley
||||| ||`- Re: BilsdaleTweed
||||| |`* Re: BilsdaleIndy Jess John
||||| | +- Re: BilsdaleTweed
||||| | +* Re: BilsdaleSH
||||| | |+- Re: Bilsdalecharles
||||| | |`* Re: BilsdaleDavid Woolley
||||| | | `* Re: BilsdaleAndy Burns
||||| | |  +- Re: BilsdaleAndy Burns
||||| | |  `* Re: BilsdaleIan Jackson
||||| | |   `* Re: BilsdaleIndy Jess John
||||| | |    `- Re: BilsdaleIan Jackson
||||| | `* Re: BilsdaleDavid Woolley
||||| |  `* Re: BilsdaleMB
||||| |   `- Re: BilsdaleDavid Woolley
||||| `- Re: BilsdaleAndy Burns
||||+* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
|||||+* Re: BilsdaleNY
||||||`- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
|||||`- Re: BilsdalePaul Ratcliffe
||||`- Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
|||+* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
||||`- Re: BilsdaleMB
|||`- Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
||`* Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
|| `* Re: BilsdaleBrian Gregory
||  `* Re: BilsdaleTweed
||   `* Re: BilsdaleAshley Booth
||    +* Re: BilsdaleDavid Woolley
||    |`- Re: BilsdaleMartin
||    `* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
||     `* Re: BilsdaleAshley Booth
||      +* Re: Bilsdaledonkey.derby
||      |+- Re: BilsdaleAshley Booth
||      |`- Re: BilsdaleAshley Booth
||      `- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
|`- Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
+* Re: Bilsdaletim...
|`- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
+* Re: BilsdaleRichard Tobin
|`- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
+- Re: BilsdaleVir Campestris
+* Re: BilsdaleBrian Gaff \(Sofa\)
|`* Re: BilsdaleWoody
| +* Re: Bilsdalecharles
| |`* Re: Bilsdalecharles
| | +- Re: BilsdaleIan Jackson
| | `* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |  `* Re: BilsdaleIan Jackson
| |   +* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |   |`* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |   | `* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |   |  `* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |   |   +- Re: BilsdaleRoderick Stewart
| |   |   `- Re: BilsdaleMax Demian
| |   `* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |    `* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |     +* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |     |+* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |     ||`* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| |     || +- Re: BilsdaleJava Jive
| |     || `- Re: BilsdaleMax Demian
| |     |+- Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
| |     |`* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| |     | +- Re: BilsdaleJava Jive
| |     | `- Re: BilsdalePaul Ratcliffe
| |     +- Re: BilsdaleMB
| |     +* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
| |     |+* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |     ||`* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
| |     || `* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| |     ||  +* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
| |     ||  |`* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| |     ||  | +* Re: BilsdaleMark Carver
| |     ||  | |+- Re: Bilsdalecharles
| |     ||  | |`- Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| |     ||  | `* Re: BilsdaleMB
| |     ||  `* Re: Bilsdaletony sayer
| |     |+* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| |     |`- Re: Bilsdaletony sayer
| |     `- Re: Bilsdaletony sayer
| +* Re: BilsdaleTweed
| +* Re: Bilsdalewilliamwright
| `- Re: BilsdalePaul Ratcliffe
`* Re: BilsdaleSH

Pages:12345678
Re: Bilsdale

<sg831l$242$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26074&group=uk.tech.digital-tv#26074

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:55:44 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: NY - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:55 UTC

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:iopd1jFevhmU1@mid.individual.net...
> NY wrote:
>
>> In my experience, DTV is *better* than analogue
>
> I'd say the same as you and Tweed really, but I don't live anywhere very
> hilly.

Where we lived before (at the top of Whitwell Hill near Malton) we had line
of sight of Bilsdale, with no incursions into the centre of the lower lobe
of the Fresnel zone (according to JavaJive's reception site - get well soon,
web-site!). Likewise for the temporary house where we lived near Leyburn -
but we were much further away.

Where we live now, there is perfect line of sight to Belmont (though it's
about 60 miles away), *apart from a pesky ridge of hills about 1/2 a mile
away* which intrudes almost to the centre of the beam (ie it cuts out the
lower half). JJ's site doesn't predict reception from *any* transmitter. But
we still get good reception. There are a few more glitches than on
satellite, so I use satellite for anything that I want to keep and
terrestrial for watch-and-delete programmes. That's with an aerial which I
presume is grouped for Belmont analogue, because it doesn't get any signal
around COM7 UHF 55 (746 MHz), only reception for PSB1 UHF 22 (482 MHz) -
COM4 UHF 30 (546 MHz). A wideband aerial might not have quite as good SNR so
it's not worth paying to get it upgraded in order to get COM7 since that
will be disappearing eventually.

I'm not sure what real SNR we get, but TVHeadend quotes a value of about
25-30 dB as reported by a PCTV 292e USB tuner - if those figures are
meaningful ;-) That's after a distribution amplifier (ONE FOR ALL SV9604)
which claims 23 dB of gain.

Re: Bilsdale

<sg83ab$45a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@nowhere.fr (Alexander)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:00:55 +0100
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 by: Alexander - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:00 UTC

I note that the Whitby relay of Bilsdale is now being fed via the BBC
Intelsat transponder - surprising as I thought relay stations were just
simple transposers (as per analogue days)? Obviously you'd need DVB-T
modulators etc. to re-mux and rebroadcast these satellite feeds.

I assume the Intelsat streams are already encoded with the appropriate
bitrates and other parameters for Freeview, whereas the Astra2 feeds
being used to supply non-BBC SD channels at Arncliffe Wood will
presumably need to be decoded and then re-encoded from scratch at the
transmitter?

Would it not have been easier for Arncliffe Wood to use Eston Nab
as its source (which, I assume, is continuing to use Pontop Pike?)

Re: Bilsdale

<iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:07:26 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:07 UTC

On 26/08/2021 14:00, Alexander wrote:
> I note that the Whitby relay of Bilsdale is now being fed via the BBC
> Intelsat transponder - surprising as I thought relay stations were just
> simple transposers (as per analogue days)? Obviously you'd need DVB-T
> modulators etc. to re-mux and rebroadcast these satellite feeds.
>
> I assume the Intelsat streams are already encoded with the appropriate
> bitrates and other parameters for Freeview, whereas the Astra2 feeds
> being used to supply non-BBC SD channels at Arncliffe Wood will
> presumably need to be decoded and then re-encoded from scratch at the
> transmitter?
>
> Would it not have been easier for Arncliffe Wood to use Eston Nab
> as its source (which, I assume, is continuing to use Pontop Pike?)
>
The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
channel etc.

The 27.5 W feed has carried PSB 1 and 3 feeds for over ten years. ITV/4
are playing catch up !

However, yes, at Whitby etc dishes have been rigged, plus other gubbins
to get the signals into the transmitters

Re: Bilsdale

<sg840u$914$2@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:12:23 +0100
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 by: NY - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:12 UTC

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and Freesat
> boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each channel etc.

Is that 11306H shown on https://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2E-2F-2G.html as being
"new" from 14 Aug 2021?

Re: Bilsdale

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:16:13 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:16 UTC

On 26/08/2021 14:12, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
>> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
>> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
>> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
>> Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
>> channel etc.
>
> Is that 11306H shown on https://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2E-2F-2G.html as
> being "new" from 14 Aug 2021?

That's the chappie !

Re: Bilsdale

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Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:44:15 +0100
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 by: NY - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:44 UTC

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iopigtFg05dU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 26/08/2021 14:12, NY wrote:
>> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
>>> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
>>> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
>>> Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
>>> channel etc.
>>
>> Is that 11306H shown on https://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2E-2F-2G.html as
>> being "new" from 14 Aug 2021?
>
> That's the chappie !

And it works, too! Well it did once I'd changed the mux's definition from
DVB-S2 to DVB-S in TVHeadend. All other parameters were unchanged from when
it used to transmit an HD colour-bars channel.

Silly question: why do they only need to make up a PSB2 and not also PSB1
and PSB3? Is there a situation where some relays can see PSB1 and PSB3 from
another terrestrial transmitter but can't see PSB2?

Re: Bilsdale

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:54:26 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:54 UTC

On 26/08/2021 14:44, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:iopigtFg05dU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 26/08/2021 14:12, NY wrote:
>>> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
>>>> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this
>>>> 'event'.
>>>> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
>>>> Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
>>>> channel etc.
>>>
>>> Is that 11306H shown on https://www.lyngsat.com/Astra-2E-2F-2G.html
>>> as being "new" from 14 Aug 2021?
>>
>> That's the chappie !
>
> And it works, too! Well it did once I'd changed the mux's definition
> from DVB-S2 to DVB-S in TVHeadend. All other parameters were unchanged
> from when it used to transmit an HD colour-bars channel.
>
> Silly question: why do they only need to make up a PSB2 and not also
> PSB1 and PSB3? Is there a situation where some relays can see PSB1 and
> PSB3 from another terrestrial transmitter but can't see PSB2?

PSB 1 and 3 are at 27.5W on Intelsat 901. That's been the BBC's RBS
method since DSO. ITV/4 (PSB 2) have not had an RBS system for DTT
(until now !)

Re: Bilsdale

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From: non...@nowhere.fr (Alexander)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:47:45 +0100
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 by: Alexander - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:47 UTC

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
> Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
> channel etc.
>
> The 27.5 W feed has carried PSB 1 and 3 feeds for over ten years. ITV/4
> are playing catch up !

In fairness, it makes more sense financially to deploy the 'RBS'
satellite feed when needed, than to leave the thing running for
a decade with nobody using it, as per the BBC arrangement -
satellite space isn't exactly cheap to rent.

I hadn't spotted the special Astra 2 feed. Are they using the
same (presumably not DVB-S standard) specs as the BBC one?

Re: Bilsdale

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:09:11 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:09 UTC

On 26/08/2021 15:47, Alexander wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:iopi0eFfu0uU1@mid.individual.net...
>> The D3/4 (aka PSB 2) feed on Astra 28.2 is a hastily arranged pre
>> assembled mux and SI to feed Whitby (and other sites) for this 'event'.
>> They are not using the DTH programme streams that domestic Sky and
>> Freesat boxes use. That would require a separate receivers for each
>> channel etc.
>>
>> The 27.5 W feed has carried PSB 1 and 3 feeds for over ten years. ITV/4
>> are playing catch up !
> In fairness, it makes more sense financially to deploy the 'RBS'
> satellite feed when needed, than to leave the thing running for
> a decade with nobody using it, as per the BBC arrangement -
> satellite space isn't exactly cheap to rent.
>
>
That's like saying only buy car insurance, just before you have an
accident !

The RBS feeds often get used at a number of relay stations that have
poor off air feeds, and they drop out during atmospheric 'lift' conditions.
I think there's a couple that rely solely on it.

Re: Bilsdale

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From: non...@nowhere.fr (Alexander)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:22:00 +0100
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 by: Alexander - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:22 UTC

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:iopp4oFh9feU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 26/08/2021 15:47, Alexander wrote:
>
>> In fairness, it makes more sense financially to deploy the 'RBS'
>> satellite feed when needed, than to leave the thing running for
>> a decade with nobody using it, as per the BBC arrangement -
>> satellite space isn't exactly cheap to rent.
>>
>>
> That's like saying only buy car insurance, just before you have an
> accident !
>
> The RBS feeds often get used at a number of relay stations that have
> poor off air feeds, and they drop out during atmospheric 'lift' conditions.
> I think there's a couple that rely solely on it.

So at these stations, PSB2 is periodically lost? (or even absent
altogether?)

Domestic (DTH) Astra service would surely suffice as an
emergency sustaining feed, even if the MPEG streams had to be
decoded and re-encoded at the tx site.

Re: Bilsdale

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:30:58 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:30 UTC

On 26/08/2021 16:22, Alexander wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:iopp4oFh9feU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 26/08/2021 15:47, Alexander wrote:
>>
>>> In fairness, it makes more sense financially to deploy the 'RBS'
>>> satellite feed when needed, than to leave the thing running for
>>> a decade with nobody using it, as per the BBC arrangement -
>>> satellite space isn't exactly cheap to rent.
>>>
>>>
>> That's like saying only buy car insurance, just before you have an
>> accident !
>>
>> The RBS feeds often get used at a number of relay stations that have
>> poor off air feeds, and they drop out during atmospheric 'lift' conditions.
>> I think there's a couple that rely solely on it.
> So at these stations, PSB2 is periodically lost? (or even absent
> altogether?)

Yep, I believe so
>
> Domestic (DTH) Astra service would surely suffice as an
> emergency sustaining feed, even if the MPEG streams had to be
> decoded and re-encoded at the tx site.
That would require a lot more kit at the supported Tx sites (over 80),
and more stuff to 'go wrong' so that increases the support costs.
The idea is always to make the transmitter site stuff as 'simple and
dumb' as possible.
I'm sure the Beeb have done their sums, and decided the present system
is the most economic.
Remember also the cost is partly subsidised by the other PSB 3
broadcasters as well

Re: Bilsdale

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From: harroga...@ntlworld.com (Woody)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:00:01 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Woody - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:00 UTC

On Thu 26/08/2021 14:00, Alexander wrote:
> I note that the Whitby relay of Bilsdale is now being fed via the BBC
> Intelsat transponder - surprising as I thought relay stations were just
> simple transposers (as per analogue days)? Obviously you'd need DVB-T
> modulators etc. to re-mux and rebroadcast these satellite feeds.
>
> I assume the Intelsat streams are already encoded with the appropriate
> bitrates and other parameters for Freeview, whereas the Astra2 feeds
> being used to supply non-BBC SD channels at Arncliffe Wood will
> presumably need to be decoded and then re-encoded from scratch at the
> transmitter?
>
> Would it not have been easier for Arncliffe Wood to use Eston Nab
> as its source (which, I assume, is continuing to use Pontop Pike?)
>

Bit difficult given Roseberry Topping is in the way. (If you want to see
RT have a look at photographer Joe Cornish's web site - its one of his
favourite subjects.)

Re: Bilsdale

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From: ipl...@channel7.television (Ivan Plapp)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:09:28 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Ivan Plapp - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:09 UTC

On 26 Aug 2021 at 13:55:44 BST, ""NY"" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
> news:iopd1jFevhmU1@mid.individual.net...
>> NY wrote:
>>
>>> In my experience, DTV is *better* than analogue
>>
>> I'd say the same as you and Tweed really, but I don't live anywhere very
>> hilly.
>
> Where we lived before (at the top of Whitwell Hill near Malton) we had line
> of sight of Bilsdale, with no incursions into the centre of the lower lobe
> of the Fresnel zone (according to JavaJive's reception site - get well soon,
> web-site!). Likewise for the temporary house where we lived near Leyburn -
> but we were much further away.

I recall the 1980s in Beverley, where the signal from Bilsdale was far
superior to Belmont.

Also a shame because Tyne Tees was significantly inferior to Yorkshire TV.

>
> Where we live now, there is perfect line of sight to Belmont (though it's
> about 60 miles away), *apart from a pesky ridge of hills about 1/2 a mile
> away* which intrudes almost to the centre of the beam (ie it cuts out the
> lower half). JJ's site doesn't predict reception from *any* transmitter. But
> we still get good reception. There are a few more glitches than on
> satellite, so I use satellite for anything that I want to keep and
> terrestrial for watch-and-delete programmes. That's with an aerial which I
> presume is grouped for Belmont analogue, because it doesn't get any signal
> around COM7 UHF 55 (746 MHz), only reception for PSB1 UHF 22 (482 MHz) -
> COM4 UHF 30 (546 MHz). A wideband aerial might not have quite as good SNR so
> it's not worth paying to get it upgraded in order to get COM7 since that
> will be disappearing eventually.
>
> I'm not sure what real SNR we get, but TVHeadend quotes a value of about
> 25-30 dB as reported by a PCTV 292e USB tuner - if those figures are
> meaningful ;-) That's after a distribution amplifier (ONE FOR ALL SV9604)
> which claims 23 dB of gain.

Responsible Belmont installers seem to only use wideband log periodic antennas
these days.

--
Is something brilliant happening?

Re: Bilsdale

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Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:12:55 +0100
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 by: NY - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:12 UTC

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iopkoiFgebfU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Silly question: why do they only need to make up a PSB2 and not also PSB1
>> and PSB3? Is there a situation where some relays can see PSB1 and PSB3
>> from another terrestrial transmitter but can't see PSB2?
>
> PSB 1 and 3 are at 27.5W on Intelsat 901. That's been the BBC's RBS method
> since DSO. ITV/4 (PSB 2) have not had an RBS system for DTT (until now !)

Do BBC use Intelsat 901 in preference to Astra 28.2 because it has spare
capacity and/or is cheaper?

I wonder if ITV etc will continue to develop RBS for feeding other relays,
or whether they will continue to use a main terrestrial transmitter to feed
their relays once Bilsdale is sorted out.

Which satellite do broadcasters use for feeding OB/news from UK locations
back to the studio? I'd thought they used the "Feeds" transponders of Astra
28.2 - 12503 MHz and higher. If not, what are the "Feeds" used for?

Re: Bilsdale

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 by: NY - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:28 UTC

"Ivan Plapp" <iplapp@channel7.television> wrote in message
news:sg8hs8$hnq$1@dont-email.me...
>> That's with an aerial which I
>> presume is grouped for Belmont analogue, because it doesn't get any
>> signal
>> around COM7 UHF 55 (746 MHz), only reception for PSB1 UHF 22 (482 MHz) -
>> COM4 UHF 30 (546 MHz). A wideband aerial might not have quite as good SNR
>> so
>> it's not worth paying to get it upgraded in order to get COM7 since that
>> will be disappearing eventually.

I've just remembered that there were a couple of other COM muxes that I
couldn't get until Belmont changed a year or so ago to lower frequencies
that were more in the range of the PSB ones. If they hadn't have made that
change, I *would* have needed to get the aerial replaced with a wideband
one.

> Responsible Belmont installers seem to only use wideband log periodic
> antennas
> these days.

Yeah, we inherited the aerial that the previous occupiers of our house (or
maybe even the ones before them) had installed. There's also the remains of
a VHF aerial with bits missing and the coax cable cut off as it enters the
house, so that's a legacy from the past. Nowadays most of what's on FM can
also be received and recorded on Freeview or Freesat - but it's not as
portable as an FM radio ;-)

I'd need a very long ladder to remove the FM aerial. My ladder is just high
enough for me to fasten the anemometer of my weather station low down on the
pole. Really it should be a couple of metres above the ridge tile of the
roof rather than only a little bit above the ridge, but at least it gives
slightly more sensible wind speed that a metre or so above ground level
where it was before, shielded by trees and garden fences from the full force
of the wind. Before putting the wind sensor at the proper height I need to
borrow a longer ladder from a neighbour and take a few anti-vertigo tablets
;-)

Re: Bilsdale

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:49:22 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:49 UTC

On 26/08/2021 08:02, cmwb wrote:

> Does DTV have as good a service area as analogue did ?

It varies. There are many factors.

> I had a watchable signal from Bilsdale for many years, until DTV.
> DTV muxes barely visible on an analyser compared to analogue
> signals.

That's because of the analyser's own noise floor. DTT dignals are 10 to
25dB down compared to analogue, which is actually OK because the
necessary signal/noise ratio is 20dB lower.

Bill

Re: Bilsdale

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 23:46:48 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:46 UTC

In article <iope6uFf732U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 26/08/2021 08:02, cmwb wrote:
>>> "Alexander"  wrote in message news:sg08qs$svt$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> Presumably it's insured against fire damage?
>>
>>> I wonder if they'll be able to justify building a structure of equal
>>> size to replace it. Digital TV may well permit the use of a number of
>>> smaller towers to cover the same area, without causing interference,
>>> if that proves to be more cost-effective.
>>
>> Does DTV have as good a service area as analogue did ?
>
>The parameters (coding, ERP, using the same Tx antenna height, and
>assuming the Rx height was still 10m agl and outside ) for post DSO DTT
>were selected to match analogue 'receivability'.  A snowy barely locked
>analogue signal, didn't count as 'receivable' .

We sometimes used Belmont in BBC-2 analogue days in Cambridge some 80
miles distant!

Needed a good 18 element aerial and pre-amp for some better then Crystal
palace!...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: Bilsdale

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From: harroga...@ntlworld.com (Woody)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:51:19 +0100
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 by: Woody - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:51 UTC

On Thu 26/08/2021 23:46, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <iope6uFf732U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>> On 26/08/2021 08:02, cmwb wrote:
>>>> "Alexander"  wrote in message news:sg08qs$svt$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> Presumably it's insured against fire damage?
>>>
>>>> I wonder if they'll be able to justify building a structure of equal
>>>> size to replace it. Digital TV may well permit the use of a number of
>>>> smaller towers to cover the same area, without causing interference,
>>>> if that proves to be more cost-effective.
>>>
>>> Does DTV have as good a service area as analogue did ?
>>
>> The parameters (coding, ERP, using the same Tx antenna height, and
>> assuming the Rx height was still 10m agl and outside ) for post DSO DTT
>> were selected to match analogue 'receivability'.  A snowy barely locked
>> analogue signal, didn't count as 'receivable' .
>
> We sometimes used Belmont in BBC-2 analogue days in Cambridge some 80
> miles distant!
>
> Needed a good 18 element aerial and pre-amp for some better then Crystal
> palace!...
>
>
A colleague of mine in the old Pye days who lived at Histon had a 46ele
multibeam and could get TTTV from Bilsdale most of the year round!
Belmont was wet string territory for him.

Re: Bilsdale

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From: mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:45:45 +0100
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 by: Mark Carver - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:45 UTC

On 26/08/2021 22:12, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:iopkoiFgebfU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Silly question: why do they only need to make up a PSB2 and not also
>>> PSB1 and PSB3? Is there a situation where some relays can see PSB1
>>> and PSB3 from another terrestrial transmitter but can't see PSB2?
>>
>> PSB 1 and 3 are at 27.5W on Intelsat 901. That's been the BBC's RBS
>> method since DSO. ITV/4 (PSB 2) have not had an RBS system for DTT
>> (until now !)
>
> Do BBC use Intelsat 901 in preference to Astra 28.2 because it has
> spare capacity and/or is cheaper?

Don't know, but cost is normally the driving force !

>
> I wonder if ITV etc will continue to develop RBS for feeding other
> relays, or whether they will continue to use a main terrestrial
> transmitter to feed their relays once Bilsdale is sorted out.

They're unlikely to routinely use D-Sat RBS I think. That said in the
future when we might find the BBC and ITV/4/5 sharing more muxes, that
might change.
Rather like PSB 3 which has some ITV back up on D-Sat simply because
they share that mux with the Beeb

>
> Which satellite do broadcasters use for feeding OB/news from UK
> locations back to the studio? I'd thought they used the "Feeds"
> transponders of Astra 28.2 - 12503 MHz and higher. If not, what are
> the "Feeds" used for?

They won't be using Astra 28.2 for ad-hoc SNG stuff. There's a verity of
other birds that are used for that

Re: Bilsdale

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:01:25 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:01 UTC

In article <sga217$772$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
scribeth thus
>On Thu 26/08/2021 23:46, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <iope6uFf732U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
>> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>>> On 26/08/2021 08:02, cmwb wrote:
>>>>> "Alexander"  wrote in message news:sg08qs$svt$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>> Presumably it's insured against fire damage?
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if they'll be able to justify building a structure of equal
>>>>> size to replace it. Digital TV may well permit the use of a number of
>>>>> smaller towers to cover the same area, without causing interference,
>>>>> if that proves to be more cost-effective.
>>>>
>>>> Does DTV have as good a service area as analogue did ?
>>>
>>> The parameters (coding, ERP, using the same Tx antenna height, and
>>> assuming the Rx height was still 10m agl and outside ) for post DSO DTT
>>> were selected to match analogue 'receivability'.  A snowy barely locked
>>> analogue signal, didn't count as 'receivable' .
>>
>> We sometimes used Belmont in BBC-2 analogue days in Cambridge some 80
>> miles distant!
>>
>> Needed a good 18 element aerial and pre-amp for some better then Crystal
>> palace!...
>>

>>
>A colleague of mine in the old Pye days who lived at Histon had a 46ele
>multibeam and could get TTTV from Bilsdale most of the year round!
>Belmont was wet string territory for him.
>

Yes! they were very good those! Still see the odd one about.

Not too surprising all that high land up there, then mile upon mile of
very flat sometimes less than sea level Fenland on the way
southwards!...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: Bilsdale

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From: bathwatc...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com (Indy Jess John)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 14:12:02 +0100
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 by: Indy Jess John - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:12 UTC

On 28/08/2021 13:01, tony sayer wrote:
> In article<sga217$772$1@dont-email.me>, Woody<harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
> scribeth thus
>> On Thu 26/08/2021 23:46, tony sayer wrote:

>> A colleague of mine in the old Pye days who lived at Histon had a 46ele
>> multibeam and could get TTTV from Bilsdale most of the year round!
>> Belmont was wet string territory for him.
>>
>
> Yes! they were very good those! Still see the odd one about.
>
> Not too surprising all that high land up there, then mile upon mile of
> very flat sometimes less than sea level Fenland on the way
> southwards!...
>
It worked the other way round too. When my mother lived on a raised
area in the fenlands in the Analogue days, she could receive Anglia,
London and Yorkshire broadcasts (according to the "local News" slots)
from her aerial.

Jim

Re: Bilsdale

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Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Bilsdale
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:34:06 +0100
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 by: Woody - Sat, 28 Aug 2021 14:34 UTC

On Sat 28/08/2021 14:12, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 28/08/2021 13:01, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article<sga217$772$1@dont-email.me>, Woody<harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
>> scribeth thus
>>> On Thu 26/08/2021 23:46, tony sayer wrote:
>
>>> A colleague of mine in the old Pye days who lived at Histon had a 46ele
>>> multibeam and could get TTTV from Bilsdale most of the year round!
>>> Belmont was wet string territory for him.
>>>
>>
>> Yes! they were very good those! Still see the odd one about.
>>
>> Not too surprising all that high land up there, then mile upon mile of
>> very flat sometimes less than sea level Fenland on the way
>> southwards!...
>>
> It worked the other way round too.  When my mother lived on a raised
> area in the fenlands in the Analogue days, she could receive Anglia,
> London and Yorkshire broadcasts (according to the "local News" slots)
> from her aerial.
>

Per my earlier, pretty well anyone outside the centre of Cambridge and
with a decent multibeam could (and often did) watch London from XP 24/365.

Yorkshire in Fenland as mentioned above would have come from Belmont
near Horncastle, Lincs.

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