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aus+uk / uk.railway / [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

SubjectAuthor
* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsGraeme Wall
`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 +* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossmartin.coffee
 |`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 | `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Tweed
 |  +* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 |  |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Tweed
 |  ||+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossCertes
 |  |||`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bosshounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
 |  ||`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 |  || `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 |  ||   `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||    `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||     +* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |  ||     ||+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  ||     |||+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |  ||     ||||`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |||`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     ||| `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||     |||  +- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |||  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossColinR
 |  ||     |||   `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||     |||    `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |||     `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||     |||      +* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossColinR
 |  ||     |||      |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  ||     |||      ||`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |||      || `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  ||     |||      |`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |||      `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     ||`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  ||     ||`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossColinR
 |  ||     | `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossColinR
 |  ||     |   `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |    `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||     |     `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRoland Perry
 |  ||     |      `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  ||     `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossMB
 |  ||      `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |  ||`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 |  || `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |  ||  +- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  ||  `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
 |  |`* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsNY
 |  | `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Recliner
 |  |  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossColinR
 |  |   `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
 |  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossMB
 |   `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Sam Wilson
 |    +* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |    |+* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsMuttley
 |    ||+- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott
 |    ||`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Sam Wilson
 |    |`- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Sam Wilson
 |    `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossMB
 |     `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Sam Wilson
 |      `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,Sam Wilson
 `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossMB
  `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossmartin.coffee
   `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
    +- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsRecliner
    `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsmechanic
     `* [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, bossGraeme Wall
      `- [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admitsScott

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[OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26146&group=uk.railway#26146

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:32:04 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:32 UTC

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<JW2HzvQ37GPiFA7c@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:15:35 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:15 UTC

In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>

Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus, when
what he did was avoid the company going into receivership. Increase the
bonus!
--
Roland Perry

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1htco$32s$2@dont-email.me>

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:57:44 +0000
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:57 UTC

On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>
> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus, when
> what he did was avoid the company going into receivership. Increase the
> bonus!

I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
in an industrial tribunal?

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1hu0p$9oe$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26155&group=uk.railway#26155

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:08:25 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:08 UTC

On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>
>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>> Increase the bonus!
>
> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
> in an industrial tribunal?

That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
would award any more.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1icbg$6ve$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,
boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:13:04 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:13 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>
>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>> Increase the bonus!
>>
>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>> in an industrial tribunal?
>
> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
> would award any more.
>

The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1ineq$3bb$2@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22 UTC

On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>
>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>> would award any more.
>>
>
> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>

Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
gets an enhanced bonus.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<t1ins8$6bv$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,
boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:29:44 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:29 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>
>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>> would award any more.
>>>
>>
>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>
>
> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
> gets an enhanced bonus.
>

Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:36:21 +0000
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 by: Certes - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:36 UTC

On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>
>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>> would award any more.
>>>
>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>
>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>
> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.

I hope the CPS will be interested, but it seems more likely to end with
the company being fined £2.50 than the [ir]responsible boss receiving a
meaningful penalty.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:38:30 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:38 UTC

On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>
>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>> would award any more.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>
>>
>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>
>
> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>

Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
doesn't apply. Failing to inform the unions is civil law. Slap on the
wrist and donation to party funds.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:38:39 +0000
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 by: Scott - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:38 UTC

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>
>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>> would award any more.
>>>
>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>
>Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>gets an enhanced bonus.

Is it redundancy or unfair dismissal? The tribunal would need to
decide.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:53:19 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:53 UTC

On 24/03/2022 21:38, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>
>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>> would award any more.
>>>>
>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>
>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>
> Is it redundancy or unfair dismissal? The tribunal would need to
> decide.

P&O state it is redundancy and, again, you go to tribunal, there is no
guarantee you will win and you get the minimum P&O can get away with.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,
boss admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:56:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:56 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>
>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>
>>
>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>
>
> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
> doesn't apply.

It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments concerned
(Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.

> Failing to inform the unions is civil law. Slap on the
> wrist and donation to party funds.

And relatively generous compensation to the redundant crews: "No P&O worker
will get less than £15,000 in compensation, he said, and a small number
will receive more than £100,000."

That's more than they'd get after a lenghty, expensive fight in the courts.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:58:48 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:58 UTC

On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>
>>
>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>> doesn't apply.
>
> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments concerned
> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.

Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…

>
>> Failing to inform the unions is civil law. Slap on the
>> wrist and donation to party funds.
>
> And relatively generous compensation to the redundant crews: "No P&O worker
> will get less than £15,000 in compensation, he said, and a small number
> will receive more than £100,000."
>
> That's more than they'd get after a lenghty, expensive fight in the courts.

Exactly.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<KFD3nmejaWPiFAbk@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:52:19 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:52 UTC

In message <t1ipio$ggb$3@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:48 on Thu, 24 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they
>>>>>>>>could claim
>>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick
>>>>>>choose
>>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>>> doesn't apply.
>> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments
>>concerned
>> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
>> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.
>
>Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
>should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…

I'm glad we've now been informed *which* governments were told, and also
that (contrary to what a <<UK>> government minister implied earlier)
that there *was* a requirement to inform our government.

The introduction of those three <<overseas>> governments rather takes
the wind out of the sails of the many people who said "surely these
ferries must have been operating under UK law simply by docking at
Dover".

>>> Failing to inform the unions is civil law. Slap on the
>>> wrist and donation to party funds.
>> And relatively generous compensation to the redundant crews: "No P&O
>>worker
>> will get less than £15,000 in compensation, he said

That seems very generous as maybe some were comparatively recent
recruits. (What with crew top-ups potentially required because of
Brexit and end of travel restrictions).

>>, and a small number
>> will receive more than £100,000."
>> That's more than they'd get after a lenghty, expensive fight in the
>>courts.
>
>Exactly.
>
>

--
Roland Perry

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:37:24 +0000
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 by: Scott - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:37 UTC

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:53:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/03/2022 21:38, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>
>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>
>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>
>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>
>> Is it redundancy or unfair dismissal? The tribunal would need to
>> decide.
>
>P&O state it is redundancy and, again, you go to tribunal, there is no
>guarantee you will win and you get the minimum P&O can get away with.

There is no guarantee P&O will win either. All I am saying is that
whether grounds of redundancy are established would be one of th
issues for the tribunal to determine. I am not seeking to predict the
outcome, as you seem to be.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,
boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:08:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:08 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1ipio$ggb$3@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:48 on Thu, 24 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they
>>>>>>>>> could claim
>>>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick
>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>>>> doesn't apply.
>>> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments
>>> concerned
>>> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
>>> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.
>>
>> Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
>> should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…
>
> I'm glad we've now been informed *which* governments were told, and also
> that (contrary to what a <<UK>> government minister implied earlier)
> that there *was* a requirement to inform our government.

No, there was no such requirement.

What they were required to do, but deliberately did not, was to consult
with the trade unions. They knew that no unions could possibly agree with
the proposal. So simply assumed the certain failure of such negotiations
and budgeted to pay high enough compensation to bypass the otherwise
inevitable fights in the courts.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law,
boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:08:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:08 UTC

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:53:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2022 21:38, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>
>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>
>>> Is it redundancy or unfair dismissal? The tribunal would need to
>>> decide.
>>
>> P&O state it is redundancy and, again, you go to tribunal, there is no
>> guarantee you will win and you get the minimum P&O can get away with.
>
> There is no guarantee P&O will win either. All I am saying is that
> whether grounds of redundancy are established would be one of th
> issues for the tribunal to determine. I am not seeking to predict the
> outcome, as you seem to be.
>

The compensation was set at a level higher than the courts would award if
P&O lost. So, such legal action would be worse than useless.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

<SlJxPkqJCbPiFAKB@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:07:37 +0000
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:07 UTC

In message <t1k7r9$6lh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:25 on Fri, 25 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1ipio$ggb$3@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:48 on Thu, 24 Mar
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for
>>>>>>>>>>the lack
>>>>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they
>>>>>>>>>> could claim
>>>>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy
>>>>>>>>>terms that
>>>>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There
>>>>>>>>should be
>>>>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick
>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>>>>> doesn't apply.
>>>> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments
>>>> concerned
>>>> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
>>>> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
>>> should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…
>>
>> I'm glad we've now been informed *which* governments were told, and also
>> that (contrary to what a <<UK>> government minister implied earlier)
>> that there *was* a requirement to inform our government.
>
>No, there was no such requirement.

Which made it peculiar they sent a minister onto the prime time news to
imply there might have been.

It wasn't necessarily an employment law thing, rather than the
withdrawal of critical national infrastructure. How are the lorry
drivers coping, I've heard no reports.

>What they were required to do, but deliberately did not, was to consult
>with the trade unions.

I'm still not quite up to speed on this. If some of the seamen belonged
to the (eg) Philippines equivalent of the RMT, would that union have to
be consulted too?

>They knew that no unions could possibly agree with the proposal. So
>simply assumed the certain failure of such negotiations and budgeted to
>pay high enough compensation to bypass the otherwise inevitable fights
>in the courts.

--
Roland Perry

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:14:04 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:14 UTC

On 25/03/2022 09:37, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:53:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2022 21:38, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:34 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for the lack
>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they could claim
>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy terms that
>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>
>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>
>>> Is it redundancy or unfair dismissal? The tribunal would need to
>>> decide.
>>
>> P&O state it is redundancy and, again, you go to tribunal, there is no
>> guarantee you will win and you get the minimum P&O can get away with.
>
> There is no guarantee P&O will win either. All I am saying is that
> whether grounds of redundancy are established would be one of th
> issues for the tribunal to determine. I am not seeking to predict the
> outcome, as you seem to be.

I'm just pointing out the worst case scenario, which if you are one of
those affected, rather than an armchair warrior, you have to bear in mind.

P&O will almost certainly win on whether or not it was redundancy, Fire
and Rehire is still not illegal in this country.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: MB...@nospam.net (MB)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:39:42 +0000
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 by: MB - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:39 UTC

On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There should be
> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick and choose
> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.

But people break laws all the time. Looks at all the laws the
Eco-Terrorist and BLM thugs break with mostly no action taken again them
and even when there is court action, they are usually let off.

But even nominally law-abiding break laws regularly.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: MB...@nospam.net (MB)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:42:08 +0000
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 by: MB - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:42 UTC

On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus, when
> what he did was avoid the company going into receivership. Increase the
> bonus!

Aren't directors / (managers?) legally required to protect the company?

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:03 +0000
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 by: Scott - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46 UTC

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:07:37 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t1k7r9$6lh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:25 on Fri, 25 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t1ipio$ggb$3@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:48 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for
>>>>>>>>>>>the lack
>>>>>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they
>>>>>>>>>>> could claim
>>>>>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy
>>>>>>>>>>terms that
>>>>>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There
>>>>>>>>>should be
>>>>>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick
>>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>>>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>>>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>>>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>>>>>> doesn't apply.
>>>>> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments
>>>>> concerned
>>>>> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
>>>>> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
>>>> should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…
>>>
>>> I'm glad we've now been informed *which* governments were told, and also
>>> that (contrary to what a <<UK>> government minister implied earlier)
>>> that there *was* a requirement to inform our government.
>>
>>No, there was no such requirement.
>
>Which made it peculiar they sent a minister onto the prime time news to
>imply there might have been.
>
>It wasn't necessarily an employment law thing, rather than the
>withdrawal of critical national infrastructure. How are the lorry
>drivers coping, I've heard no reports.
>
>>What they were required to do, but deliberately did not, was to consult
>>with the trade unions.
>
>I'm still not quite up to speed on this. If some of the seamen belonged
>to the (eg) Philippines equivalent of the RMT, would that union have to
>be consulted too?
>
My understanding was that Philippines was merely a 'flag of
convenience' for the ship and not an employment base. There was some
suggestion the staff were employed out of Jersey. It would be good to
have some more facts.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:48 UTC

On 25/03/2022 12:42, MB wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus, when
>> what he did was avoid the company going into receivership. Increase the
>> bonus!
>
> Aren't directors / (managers?) legally required to protect the company?

But they're required to do it legally.

With a bit of luck the whole board will be disqualified as directors in
the UK.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss
admits
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:50:37 +0000
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:50 UTC

On 25/03/2022 12:48, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 12:42, MB wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus, when
>>> what he did was avoid the company going into receivership. Increase the
>>> bonus!
>>
>> Aren't directors / (managers?) legally required to protect the company?
>
>
> But they're required to do it legally.
>
> With a bit of luck the whole board will be disqualified as directors in
> the UK.

Not going to happen.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: [OT} P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:55 UTC

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:07:37 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1k7r9$6lh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:25 on Fri, 25 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t1ipio$ggb$3@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:48 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:56, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 18:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:57, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2022 13:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1hoc4$tjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:32:04 on Thu, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting that they are asking if the boss will forego his bonus,
>>>>>>>>>>>> when what he did was avoid the company going into receivership.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Increase the bonus!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the former employees could claim damages for
>>>>>>>>>>>the lack
>>>>>>>>>>> of consultation in the civil courts in addition to what they
>>>>>>>>>>> could claim
>>>>>>>>>>> in an industrial tribunal?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That way they would lose the, allegedly, generous redundancy
>>>>>>>>>>terms that
>>>>>>>>>> P&O Ferries are currently offering, with no guarantee that the courts
>>>>>>>>>> would award any more.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is he knowingly and deliberately broke the law. There
>>>>>>>>>should be
>>>>>>>>> personal consequences for that. You shouldn’t be able to pick
>>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>>> which laws to obey. Expediency and the end result don’t justify law
>>>>>>>>> breaking in anything other than the utterly trivial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok you can go to a tribunal and they will agree he broke the law. You
>>>>>>>> get the legal minimum redundancy pay - eventually, less costs. Your
>>>>>>>> colleagues who kept schtum walk away with 50 grand or more. And the CEO
>>>>>>>> gets an enhanced bonus.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends if he’s broken the criminal law. Then it’s up to the CPS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Failing to inform the government would be criminal law but apparently
>>>>>> doesn't apply.
>>>>> It does apply, and they say they did inform the governments
>>>>> concerned
>>>>> (Cyprus, Bahamas, Bermuda) on 17 March, who probably weren't terribly
>>>>> bothered. There was no requirement to inform the UK government.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I inadvertently inserted one of Roland's invisible words there,
>>>> should have read Faiure to inform the UK government…
>>>
>>> I'm glad we've now been informed *which* governments were told, and also
>>> that (contrary to what a <<UK>> government minister implied earlier)
>>> that there *was* a requirement to inform our government.
>>
>>No, there was no such requirement.
>
>Which made it peculiar they sent a minister onto the prime time news to
>imply there might have been.

An unfortunate minister gets lumbered with the job of avoiding questions from news reporters each morning. That doesn't
mean they have any expertise on the subjects that come up that morning. Their job is simply to try and sound credible
(with varying degrees of success) without actually saying anything or answering any difficult questions. Those
interviews are a waste of time, and not worth listening to.

>
>It wasn't necessarily an employment law thing, rather than the
>withdrawal of critical national infrastructure. How are the lorry
>drivers coping, I've heard no reports.
>
>>What they were required to do, but deliberately did not, was to consult
>>with the trade unions.
>
>I'm still not quite up to speed on this. If some of the seamen belonged
>to the (eg) Philippines equivalent of the RMT, would that union have to
>be consulted too?

Who knows? But they were members of the UK RMT, and the company was supposed to consult it.

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