When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
(which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
that often occurs at that point?

-- Richard

On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
>When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>(which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>that often occurs at that point?
>
>-- Richard
My Humax Foxsat recorder has a button that can skip up to 4 minutes,
which is perfect for the statutory 3 min ads + 1min trailers.
--
Dave W

On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
> the "skip" button (>>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
> that often occurs at that point?
>
> -- Richard
>
It depends on the model. The earliest Panasonics didn't have that
facility. I have a slightly later Panasonic and there is a menu item
buried somewhere that allows me to define the skip interval in seconds.
I have just left it at the default (I think it might be 30 seconds)
because it is just as easy to fast play through the ads and restart
watching when they finish.

Jim

In message <shdob5$29p2$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>, Richard Tobin
<richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> writes
>When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>(which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>that often occurs at that point?

What a useful facility. On my own set-top box, I have to do skip the
adverts "manually". (I also occasionally forget that I'm watching a
program live, and wonder for a moment why fast-forward isn't working.)
--
John Hall "Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always
pays off now." Anon

On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
> that often occurs at that point?

I've been using a Panasonic PVR for years and didn't know that >>|
skipped through some ad breaks! I've always used the "Manual skip
forward" for one minute "Manual skip back" for 12 seconds to deal with
ad breaks.

I've just had a play to see why it works for some channels and not
others. from my limited experiment it works with SD channels (I tried
Ch4, Yesterday, Sky Arts, Horror Channel, and More 4) but not HD
channels, although I only had a couple of Ch4 HD programmes recorded,
and no ITV HD programme. Could someone check with any recorded ITV HD
programme they have?

Thanks for the tip!

--

Jeff

On 10/09/2021 06:52, tim... wrote:

> Some channels insert different lengths of ad break at different point in the
> program. I recall one example when the ad break varied between 1.5 and 5.5
> within a 1 hour slot.

Yep. I think it's Ch5's "GPs behind closed doors" where I always get
caught out skipping through the first ad break. Usually the breaks are
four minutes, but the first ad break is one minute. The Horror Channel
also varies its ad breaks in "Star Trek Voyager" from 4 - 5.5 minutes or so.

Isn't there some unwritten (or written?) rule that the ad breaks are
taken, more or less, at the same time on varying channels to make
channel jumping while the ads are on somewhat pointless? This is
especially true with the "minor" channels of Ch4 and Ch5 - 4seven, 5
USA, etc. Do they avoid varying-length ad breaks?

> Can't answer the OP's question

See my reply to the OP.

--

Jeff

On 10/09/2021 08:01, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>> (which would be surprising)
> No flag to assist with ad skipping is broadcast

See my reply to the OP. Why does the Panasonic behave differently
between an SD and an HD recording? Is there something different in how
the ad breaks are marked?

--

Jeff

On 10/09/2021 08:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 08:01, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>> end of an ad break.  Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>> (which would be surprising)
>> No flag to assist with ad skipping is broadcast
>
> See my reply to the OP. Why does the Panasonic behave differently
> between an SD and an HD recording? Is there something different in how
> the ad breaks are marked?
>
Some PVRs might try and guess where ad breaks start and end by looking
for periods of black, and the dynamics of that might be altered by
whether the stream is HD or SD.

One thing to bear in mind here is that if you have the wherewithal to skip
the adverts, then the people placing them are less inclined to spend much on
making and showing them. This means the funding goes down for programmes and
then up goes the subscription model or pay as you go. When people complain
about myriad subs for all the stuff they used to watch for free on
commercial channels they tend to forget that small point in the way things
are paid for.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Richard Tobin" <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:shdob5$29p2$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk...
> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
> that often occurs at that point?
>
> -- Richard
>

On 10/09/2021 09:23, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 08:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 08:01, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>>> end of an ad break.  Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>>> (which would be surprising)
>>> No flag to assist with ad skipping is broadcast
>>
>> See my reply to the OP. Why does the Panasonic behave differently
>> between an SD and an HD recording? Is there something different in how
>> the ad breaks are marked?
>>
> Some PVRs might try and guess where ad breaks start and end by looking
> for periods of black, and the dynamics of that might be altered by
> whether the stream is HD or SD.

Could be. The other possibility is that for some reason the ads
correspond to "Chapter Marks" which can be used with the Panasonic's PVR
editing capabilities:
"Regarding chapters
You can divide a title into multiple chapters. Each section between the
division points (Chapter Marks) becomes a chapter."

The "Skip >>|" button on the remote is really intended to be used to
jump to the start of the next chapter.

--

Jeff

On 10/09/2021 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:

> Could be. The other possibility is that for some reason the ads
> correspond to "Chapter Marks" which can be used with the Panasonic's PVR
> editing capabilities:
> "Regarding chapters
> You can divide a title into multiple chapters. Each section between the
> division points (Chapter Marks) becomes a chapter."
>
> The "Skip >>|" button on the remote is really intended to be used to
> jump to the start of the next chapter.

I meant to add "and maybe the Panasonic deals with SD and HD editing in
different ways".

--

Jeff

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:27:48 +0100, Dave W wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>
>>When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>(which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>>that often occurs at that point?
>>
>>-- Richard
>
> My Humax Foxsat recorder has a button that can skip up to 4 minutes,
> which is perfect for the statutory 3 min ads + 1min trailers.

My Foxsat HDR is set to 1 min. forward, 15 sec. back - a lot of breaks are
cunningly not whole minutes.
If a whole minute goes to far it's useful to know if there's anything
salient it's skipped, e.g. Stargate always changed location with an external
shot, so no need to go back.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article <shf0sa$en3$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>I've just had a play to see why it works for some channels and not
>others. from my limited experiment it works with SD channels (I tried
>Ch4, Yesterday, Sky Arts, Horror Channel, and More 4) but not HD
>channels,

Yes, that seems to be true. I hadn't noticed it because almost all
the HD programs I have recorded are on the BBC where it doesn't arise.

As someone else mentioned, it is using the "chapter" mechanism to
record the breaks. If you look at the "chapter view" of the recording
(in the option button menu) you will see that the programs are divided
into chapters largely matching the ad breaks.

I wonder if the difference between SD and HD is deliberate, or a
result of the HD->SD conversion process - if the program and ads are
converted separately it might be doing something with the SD/HD flag
at the joins, and that might be interpreted as a new chapter.

>although I only had a couple of Ch4 HD programmes recorded,
>and no ITV HD programme. Could someone check with any recorded ITV HD
>programme they have?

I found one (actually STV HD) and indeed it is not divided into
chapters.

-- Richard

On 10/09/2021 10:24, Richard Tobin wrote:
>
> I wonder if the difference between SD and HD is deliberate, or a
> result of the HD->SD conversion process - if the program and ads are
> converted separately it might be doing something with the SD/HD flag
> at the joins, and that might be interpreted as a new chapter.
>
Any channel that is available in HD, is an entirely HD playout
operation, and the SD version of the channel is a down-convert of that
(sometimes with the exception of the DOG)
All ads are delivered to the broadcasters in HD format now I think.

Some channels that are not available at all in HD, still have a 100% HD
workflow. ITV Channel Islands is a notable example.

On 09/09/2021 21:27, Dave W wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>
>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>> that often occurs at that point?
>>
>> -- Richard
>
> My Humax Foxsat recorder has a button that can skip up to 4 minutes,
> which is perfect for the statutory 3 min ads + 1min trailers.
>

My PVRs have the configurable jump/skip periods on 6 buttons (3 skip
forward and 3 skip backwards). I've configured jumps of 15 seconds, 60
seconds and 300 seconds and I can usually easily hit the resumption of
the program.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 10/09/2021 08:18, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>> end of an ad break.  Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>> that often occurs at that point?
>
> I've been using a Panasonic PVR for years and didn't know that >>|
> skipped through some ad breaks! I've always used the "Manual skip
> forward" for one minute "Manual skip back" for 12 seconds to deal with
> ad breaks.

Does the key you mention just take you to the program start and end
markers - usit it will skip the adverts between programs but not adverts
during programs?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 10/09/2021 11:32, alan_m wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 08:18, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>> end of an ad break.  Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>>> that often occurs at that point?
>>
>> I've been using a Panasonic PVR for years and didn't know that >>|
>> skipped through some ad breaks! I've always used the "Manual skip
>> forward" for one minute "Manual skip back" for 12 seconds to deal with
>> ad breaks.
>
> Does the key you mention just take you to the program start and end
> markers - usit it will skip the adverts between programs but not adverts
> during programs?

I only tried it on ads during programs. Next time I use the PVR I'll see
if it's also true for the before/after ads.

--

Jeff

On 10/09/2021 10:02, PeterC wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:27:48 +0100, Dave W wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
>> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>>
>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>>> that often occurs at that point?

>> My Humax Foxsat recorder has a button that can skip up to 4 minutes,
>> which is perfect for the statutory 3 min ads + 1min trailers.
>
> My Foxsat HDR is set to 1 min. forward, 15 sec. back - a lot of breaks are
> cunningly not whole minutes.
> If a whole minute goes to far it's useful to know if there's anything
> salient it's skipped, e.g. Stargate always changed location with an external
> shot, so no need to go back.

Most channels have a logo in the top left corner during the programmes
but not the breaks which is useful.

--
Max Demian

On 10/09/2021 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 09:23, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 10/09/2021 08:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 10/09/2021 08:01, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 09/09/2021 20:46, Richard Tobin wrote:

>>>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>>>> end of an ad break.  Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>>>> (which would be surprising)
>>>> No flag to assist with ad skipping is broadcast
>>>
>>> See my reply to the OP. Why does the Panasonic behave differently
>>> between an SD and an HD recording? Is there something different in how
>>> the ad breaks are marked?
>>>
>> Some PVRs might try and guess where ad breaks start and end by looking
>> for periods of black, and the dynamics of that might be altered by
>> whether the stream is HD or SD.
>
> Could be. The other possibility is that for some reason the ads
> correspond to "Chapter Marks" which can be used with the Panasonic's PVR
> editing capabilities:
> "Regarding chapters
> You can divide a title into multiple chapters. Each section between the
> division points (Chapter Marks) becomes a chapter."
>
> The "Skip >>|" button on the remote is really intended to be used to
> jump to the start of the next chapter.

The Skip |<< and >>| buttons are for chapters. On my Panasonic remote
There are Manual Skip -10s and +60s buttons at the bottom.

--
Max Demian

On 10/09/2021 09:33, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

> One thing to bear in mind here is that if you have the wherewithal to skip
> the adverts, then the people placing them are less inclined to spend much on
> making and showing them. This means the funding goes down for programmes and
> then up goes the subscription model or pay as you go. When people complain
> about myriad subs for all the stuff they used to watch for free on
> commercial channels they tend to forget that small point in the way things
> are paid for.

I suspect that payment to the programme makers follows from the amount
of money available from the adverts, not the other way round. They put
as many adverts on that they think people can stand, and distribute the
money amongst themselves.

Even nowadays, most people who watch broadcast TV watch live, rather
than recording and watching later.

I don't think those of us who skip adverts need shed any tears for TV
and advertising executives.

--
Max Demian

On 09/09/2021 08:46 pm, Richard Tobin wrote:

> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
> that often occurs at that point?
>
> -- Richard

My Sony HDD / DVD-R machine (870 model) tends to note the start and
finish of an ad break as edit points.

That is the case whether I have recorded directly from the Sony's own
tuner (relatively rare) or by copying from a Sky+ box.

In article <iq0n07F24lqU1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Any channel that is available in HD, is an entirely HD playout
>operation, and the SD version of the channel is a down-convert of that
>(sometimes with the exception of the DOG)
>All ads are delivered to the broadcasters in HD format now I think.
>
>Some channels that are not available at all in HD, still have a 100% HD
>workflow. ITV Channel Islands is a notable example.

As an experiment, I tried recording the same program simultaneously
from Channel 5 and Channel 5 HD. The SD version was divided into
chapters, the HD one wasn't.

There are 6 (!) chapters in the half hour program, but one of the
chapter breaks is indeed at the end of the ads in the middle.

-- Richard

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:21:32 +0100, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 10/09/2021 06:52, tim... wrote:
>
>> Some channels insert different lengths of ad break at different point in the
>> program. I recall one example when the ad break varied between 1.5 and 5.5
>> within a 1 hour slot.
>
>Yep. I think it's Ch5's "GPs behind closed doors" where I always get
>caught out skipping through the first ad break. Usually the breaks are
>four minutes, but the first ad break is one minute. The Horror Channel
>also varies its ad breaks in "Star Trek Voyager" from 4 - 5.5 minutes or so.
>
>Isn't there some unwritten (or written?) rule that the ad breaks are
>taken, more or less, at the same time on varying channels to make
>channel jumping while the ads are on somewhat pointless? This is
>especially true with the "minor" channels of Ch4 and Ch5 - 4seven, 5
>USA, etc. Do they avoid varying-length ad breaks?
>
>> Can't answer the OP's question
>
>See my reply to the OP.
Yes, The Gadget Show also has a 1-minute first break.
--
Dave W

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:36:05 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

> On 10/09/2021 10:02, PeterC wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:27:48 +0100, Dave W wrote:
>>> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
>>> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>>>
>>>> When playing back recorded television programs on my Panasonic DVR,
>>>> the "skip" button ( >>| ) will usually, though not always, skip to the
>>>> end of an ad break. Is it using a flag intended for the purpose
>>>> (which would be surprising) or is it just using some incidental change
>>>> that often occurs at that point?
>
>>> My Humax Foxsat recorder has a button that can skip up to 4 minutes,
>>> which is perfect for the statutory 3 min ads + 1min trailers.
>>
>> My Foxsat HDR is set to 1 min. forward, 15 sec. back - a lot of breaks are
>> cunningly not whole minutes.
>> If a whole minute goes to far it's useful to know if there's anything
>> salient it's skipped, e.g. Stargate always changed location with an external
>> shot, so no need to go back.
>
> Most channels have a logo in the top left corner during the programmes
> but not the breaks which is useful.

Yes, but often a 15 sec. skip back is still on the programme but there's
nothing significant before that; another back-skip gives 12 - 14 sec. of
break.
Deep Space 9 always had 2 min. of credits etc, - very useful. The credits on
Elementary are occasionally a couple of second and usually long enough to be
annoying but too short to be worth skipping.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Max Demian wrote:

>I suspect that payment to the programme makers follows from the amount
>of money available from the adverts, not the other way round. They put
>as many adverts on that they think people can stand, and distribute the
>money amongst themselves.
>
>Even nowadays, most people who watch broadcast TV watch live, rather
>than recording and watching later.
>
>I don't think those of us who skip adverts need shed any tears for TV
>and advertising executives.

Quite!

I notice that watching programmes online from UKTV, usually
because the PVR recording has failed due to a poor signal, there
are actually minimal adverts, mostly trailers, and some breaks
run straight to the next section.

Perhaps their advertisers feel that fans of technology and
history programmes are not their target audience. ;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.