On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 19:43:52 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 09:49:00 +0000, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 21:28:18 +0000, Charles Ellson
>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:05:40 +0000, Scott
>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:56:52 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>4On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:14:38 +0000, Scott
>>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:39:33 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:41:43 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:36:49 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:12:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In message <t10evp$bmp$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:07:37 on Thu, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2022 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:36:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose there's some complex web of ownership. P&O is a Dubai-owned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company, and the crew are probably employed by a non-UK company that has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps lost its contract to supply staff to the line? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>parent company
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may simply have awarded the crew supply contract to a different agency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case. what about TUPE? Would existing employees not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to remain on existing their terms and conditions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that apply to a foreign-owned ship not on the UK registry?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the ship is the employer. If the shipowner is non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this would raise a number of interesting questions. Do the seamen pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Income Tax?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who resides in UK is normally supposed to pay UK taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, regardless of where their employer or customer is based.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>We are getting into tax law a bit over our heads I think. Over the
>>>>>>>>>>years I have known many (mainly IT) contractors who have lived in
>>>>>>>>>>to UK and worked for firms based overseas. It's most unlikely their
>>>>>>>>>>foreign employer was running a UK PAYE scheme for them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>As well as mutual double tax conventions/treaties (and one exists
>>>>>>>>>>UK-Cyprus for example), there's a whole load of special rules for
>>>>>>>>>>ex-pats working in the UK but paid from abroad. In any event, the
>>>>>>>>>>definition of "resides" has many wrinkles,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Ordinarily resident" can often be a candidate for the Elephant Test.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>and isn't consistent between different bodies of UK law.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>There is no UK Law, there are three legal systems not guaranteed to
>>>>>>>>>match each other although matters of Civil Law tend not to vary
>>>>>>>>>greatly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And matters of employment law I suggest even less so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The differences can be made where employment law runs along with other
>>>>>>>matters such as discrimination or contract law :-
>>>>>>>https://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-briefing/scottish-employment-law-small-but-significant-differences-can-be-a-trap-for-the-unwary/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not sure about discrimination (Equalities Act 2010) but I agree
>>>>>>contract law may have an impact .
>>>>>>
>>>>>Not related to the P&O case but different interpretation in the past
>>>>>of what constituted "race" or similar led to e.g. English people being
>>>>>protected from discrimination in Scotland but not Scots in England.
>>>>
>>>>I agree. I'm not saying application of the law is identical, just
>>>>that it's the same law.
>>>>
>>>Same statute (if the case depends only on statute) but different law
>>>(i.e. statute plus case law).
>>
>>Yes I agree but with the proviso that an English case will be
>>persuasive but not binding on the Scottish Court.
>>>
>Yes, unless a point is already established thus leaving no need to
>borrow. English cases generally have no special importance unless they
>are the only relevant comparison or it involves a shared statute.
>Otherwise on both sides of the border a lack of domestic material can
>lead to a legal "trawl" around the Commonwealth (most basically
>English Law but sometimes with varying amounts of Scots Law thrown
>in), the USA (still basically English Law with post-1776 deviation,
>ignoring Louisiana) and sometimes further.
>
True, though it depends where it is established. If it goes to appeal
the HIgh Court may look further afield if asked to do so. If it goes
to the Supreme Court (civil cases only), the Supreme Court may
consider more creatively.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>
>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>
>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>
>
>Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>
I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
posted a link.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:02:30 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
><hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 21/03/2022 23:56, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> 4On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:14:38 +0000, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:39:33 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:41:43 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:36:49 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:12:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t10evp$bmp$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:07:37 on Thu, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2022 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:36:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose there's some complex web of ownership. P&O is a Dubai-owned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company, and the crew are probably employed by a non-UK company that has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps lost its contract to supply staff to the line? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parent company
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may simply have awarded the crew supply contract to a different agency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case. what about TUPE? Would existing employees not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to remain on existing their terms and conditions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that apply to a foreign-owned ship not on the UK registry?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the ship is the employer. If the shipowner is non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>> this would raise a number of interesting questions. Do the seamen pay
>>>>>>>>>>> Income Tax?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who resides in UK is normally supposed to pay UK taxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, regardless of where their employer or customer is based.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are getting into tax law a bit over our heads I think. Over the
>>>>>>>> years I have known many (mainly IT) contractors who have lived in
>>>>>>>> to UK and worked for firms based overseas. It's most unlikely their
>>>>>>>> foreign employer was running a UK PAYE scheme for them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As well as mutual double tax conventions/treaties (and one exists
>>>>>>>> UK-Cyprus for example), there's a whole load of special rules for
>>>>>>>> ex-pats working in the UK but paid from abroad. In any event, the
>>>>>>>> definition of "resides" has many wrinkles,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Ordinarily resident" can often be a candidate for the Elephant Test.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and isn't consistent between different bodies of UK law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no UK Law, there are three legal systems not guaranteed to
>>>>>>> match each other although matters of Civil Law tend not to vary
>>>>>>> greatly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And matters of employment law I suggest even less so.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The differences can be made where employment law runs along with other
>>>>> matters such as discrimination or contract law :-
>>>>> https://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-briefing/scottish-employment-law-small-but-significant-differences-can-be-a-trap-for-the-unwary/
>>>>
>>>> Not sure about discrimination (Equalities Act 2010) but I agree
>>>> contract law may have an impact .
>>>>
>>> Not related to the P&O case but different interpretation in the past
>>> of what constituted "race" or similar led to e.g. English people being
>>> protected from discrimination in Scotland but not Scots in England.
>>
>>I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>
>>That's gotta be actionable.
>>
>There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>from around the British Isles.

Would the same apply to an actor playing the part of a white (or
black) person in a historical drama? A black Queen Victoria could
cause no end of confusion :-)

On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>
>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>
>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>
>>
>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>
> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
> posted a link.

We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
phone.

The interesting part of the letter is where it refers to her other,
unspecified, involvement in local matters. I wonder if she was an active
trade unionist, for example.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/03/2022 10:38, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:02:30 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/03/2022 23:56, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> 4On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:14:38 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:39:33 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:41:43 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:36:49 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:12:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <t10evp$bmp$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:07:37 on Thu, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2022 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:36:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose there's some complex web of ownership. P&O is a Dubai-owned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company, and the crew are probably employed by a non-UK company that has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps lost its contract to supply staff to the line? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parent company
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may simply have awarded the crew supply contract to a different agency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case. what about TUPE? Would existing employees not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to remain on existing their terms and conditions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that apply to a foreign-owned ship not on the UK registry?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the ship is the employer. If the shipowner is non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> this would raise a number of interesting questions. Do the seamen pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> Income Tax?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who resides in UK is normally supposed to pay UK taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, regardless of where their employer or customer is based.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are getting into tax law a bit over our heads I think. Over the
>>>>>>>>> years I have known many (mainly IT) contractors who have lived in
>>>>>>>>> to UK and worked for firms based overseas. It's most unlikely their
>>>>>>>>> foreign employer was running a UK PAYE scheme for them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As well as mutual double tax conventions/treaties (and one exists
>>>>>>>>> UK-Cyprus for example), there's a whole load of special rules for
>>>>>>>>> ex-pats working in the UK but paid from abroad. In any event, the
>>>>>>>>> definition of "resides" has many wrinkles,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ordinarily resident" can often be a candidate for the Elephant Test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and isn't consistent between different bodies of UK law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is no UK Law, there are three legal systems not guaranteed to
>>>>>>>> match each other although matters of Civil Law tend not to vary
>>>>>>>> greatly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And matters of employment law I suggest even less so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The differences can be made where employment law runs along with other
>>>>>> matters such as discrimination or contract law :-
>>>>>> https://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-briefing/scottish-employment-law-small-but-significant-differences-can-be-a-trap-for-the-unwary/
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure about discrimination (Equalities Act 2010) but I agree
>>>>> contract law may have an impact .
>>>>>
>>>> Not related to the P&O case but different interpretation in the past
>>>> of what constituted "race" or similar led to e.g. English people being
>>>> protected from discrimination in Scotland but not Scots in England.
>>>
>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>
>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>
>> There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>> discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>> but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>> close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>> potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>> border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>> little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>> could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>>from around the British Isles.
>
> Would the same apply to an actor playing the part of a white (or
> black) person in a historical drama? A black Queen Victoria could
> cause no end of confusion :-)

There's a lot of fuss these days if a white actor plays Othello!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:38:37 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:02:30 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>><hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 21/03/2022 23:56, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> 4On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:14:38 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:39:33 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:41:43 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:36:49 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:12:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <t10evp$bmp$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:07:37 on Thu, 17 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2022 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 18:36:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:34:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose there's some complex web of ownership. P&O is a Dubai-owned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company, and the crew are probably employed by a non-UK company that has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps lost its contract to supply staff to the line? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parent company
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may simply have awarded the crew supply contract to a different agency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case. what about TUPE? Would existing employees not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to remain on existing their terms and conditions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that apply to a foreign-owned ship not on the UK registry?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the ship is the employer. If the shipowner is non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> this would raise a number of interesting questions. Do the seamen pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> Income Tax?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone who resides in UK is normally supposed to pay UK taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, regardless of where their employer or customer is based.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are getting into tax law a bit over our heads I think. Over the
>>>>>>>>> years I have known many (mainly IT) contractors who have lived in
>>>>>>>>> to UK and worked for firms based overseas. It's most unlikely their
>>>>>>>>> foreign employer was running a UK PAYE scheme for them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As well as mutual double tax conventions/treaties (and one exists
>>>>>>>>> UK-Cyprus for example), there's a whole load of special rules for
>>>>>>>>> ex-pats working in the UK but paid from abroad. In any event, the
>>>>>>>>> definition of "resides" has many wrinkles,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ordinarily resident" can often be a candidate for the Elephant Test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and isn't consistent between different bodies of UK law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is no UK Law, there are three legal systems not guaranteed to
>>>>>>>> match each other although matters of Civil Law tend not to vary
>>>>>>>> greatly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And matters of employment law I suggest even less so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The differences can be made where employment law runs along with other
>>>>>> matters such as discrimination or contract law :-
>>>>>> https://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-briefing/scottish-employment-law-small-but-significant-differences-can-be-a-trap-for-the-unwary/
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure about discrimination (Equalities Act 2010) but I agree
>>>>> contract law may have an impact .
>>>>>
>>>> Not related to the P&O case but different interpretation in the past
>>>> of what constituted "race" or similar led to e.g. English people being
>>>> protected from discrimination in Scotland but not Scots in England.
>>>
>>>I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>
>>>That's gotta be actionable.
>>>
>>There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>>discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>>but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>>close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>>potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>>border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>>little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>>could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>>from around the British Isles.
>
>Would the same apply to an actor playing the part of a white (or
>black) person in a historical drama? A black Queen Victoria could
>cause no end of confusion :-)

There have been some 'colour-blind' productions, where the cast are chosen purely for their artistic ability, not their
race. Needless to say, it's controversial:
<https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/aug/11/its-dangerous-not-to-see-race-is-colour-blind-casting-all-its-cracked-up-to-be>

One oddity in Britain is that historical dramas are hardy perennials, and these provide very few legitimate roles for
non-white actors. Consequently, the many fine black British actors are short of work, and quite a few have moved to the
US, where their better British training helps them win many American roles in preference to African-American actors. It
seems that black British actors are better at learning authentic American accents than Americans are at learning to act.
Needless to say, African-American actors are pissed off at losing roles to the influx of black British actors.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:10:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>
>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>> posted a link.
>
>We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
>where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
>Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
>phone.

I don't know. I believe that the Glasgow accent is regarded as
trustworthy in the financial services sector.
>
>The interesting part of the letter is where it refers to her other,
>unspecified, involvement in local matters. I wonder if she was an active
>trade unionist, for example.

On 24/03/2022 14:20, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:10:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>>
>>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>>> posted a link.
>>
>> We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
>> where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
>> Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
>> phone.
>
> I don't know. I believe that the Glasgow accent is regarded as
> trustworthy in the financial services sector.

Is it? I know other Scottish accents are so regarded. But they tend to
be Edinburgh/Aberdonian. Probably depends on the amount of local dialect
being mixed in rather than the accent per se.

At TVS we had a general manager who was Glaswegian and a shop steward
who was a Geordie. When they were having a row you needed subtitles to
follow what was going on!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Would the same apply to an actor playing the part of a white (or
> black) person in a historical drama? A black Queen Victoria could
> cause no end of confusion :-)
>

Not as part of an advert on the telly it wouldn’t where it is just about
compulsory to have a black in every commercial , leads to the situation
where most couples depicted are a happy mix which is far from the norm
around most of Britain. There is one that has a black actress in a scene
that is based on thw 16th century German tale Rapunzel , if it was a
white actress playing a character from an African story there would be
cries “They’re dissin our culture “.

And the recent “Around the World in Eighty Days “ on the BBC had characters
altered from the original so it could have a black valet and a male
character rewritten as a woman.

GH

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:38:37 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Would the same apply to an actor playing the part of a white (or
>black) person in a historical drama? A black Queen Victoria could
>cause no end of confusion :-)

There's a general rule of thumb that casting for the stage is
colourblind, but casting for film is not. Plenty of black actors have
played Hamlet and Macbeth, for example. But that's because, by its very
nature, a theatre production lacks the realism of film, so the focus is
on the skill of the actors. Which is, of course, independent of skin
colour. Films, by contrast, generally go to great lengths to make the
set realistic and believable. So if the character being portrayed is a
particular ethnicity, then the actor generally has to be the same, or at
least look the same, in order for it to work.

That doesn't mean that a fictitious character can't be rewritten to be a
different ethnicity to that of the character in previous appearances.
Miss Moneypenny, in the Bond movies, has changed skin colour over the
course of the series, for example. But for a historical figure, intended
to be a realistic representation, then the appearance of the actor does
matter. So you probably couldn't get away with a black Victoria in a
movie, although you could on stage (in the same way that nobody has any
problem with a black Hamilton on stage).

Mark

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:20:28 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:10:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>>
>>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>>> posted a link.
>>
>>We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
>>where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
>>Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
>>phone.
>
>I don't know. I believe that the Glasgow accent is regarded as
>trustworthy in the financial services sector.
>>
Which end of Glasgow?
<snip>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:20:28 +0000, Scott
> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:10:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>>>
>>>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>>>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>>>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>>>> posted a link.
>>>
>>> We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
>>> where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
>>> Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
>>> phone.
>>
>> I don't know. I believe that the Glasgow accent is regarded as
>> trustworthy in the financial services sector.
>>>
> Which end of Glasgow?
> <snip>

Kelvinside, obviously!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>
>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>> posted a link.
>
> We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
> where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
> Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
> phone.
>
> The interesting part of the letter is where it refers to her other,
> unspecified, involvement in local matters. I wonder if she was an active
> trade unionist, for example.
>

The reference to "regional activities" is presumably related to the part in
her Twitter bio which says "@HolocaustUK Regional Ambassador", ie
suggesting that her charity work would be a distraction from paid work?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 25/03/2022 12:46, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 10:36, Scott wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:54:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:58:11 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
>>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it was to play the role of an Irish woman in a play? Maybe it
>>>>> was for a German translator? More details needed.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why would a Welsh accent be a problem for a translator?
>>>>
>>> I didn't express it clearly. I meant if she did not speak German. I
>>> was making the point (badly) that there could have been another
>>> genuine occupational requirement involved but I see you have now
>>> posted a link.
>>
>> We still don't know what the post was, though I can't imagine a scenario
>> where a Welsh accent would be a handicap, not like, eg Glaswegian or
>> Geordie, which can be incomprehensible to outsiders, especially on the
>> phone.
>>
>> The interesting part of the letter is where it refers to her other,
>> unspecified, involvement in local matters. I wonder if she was an active
>> trade unionist, for example.
>>
>
> The reference to "regional activities" is presumably related to the part in
> her Twitter bio which says "@HolocaustUK Regional Ambassador", ie
> suggesting that her charity work would be a distraction from paid work?
>

So possibly anti-semitic as well?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <l4um3h9e20frip9pkjoihrt8eb2tn4kup1@4ax.com>, at 20:02:30 on
Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>>I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>
>>That's gotta be actionable.
>>
>There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>from around the British Isles.

I was often working in an environment where tick-box recruiters wanted
two languages. My two were BBC English, and "English as a second
language".

It's more important to be able to instinctively switch to a simplified
vocabulary and not worry about grammatical errors if you know the person
you are speaking to will understand better if you use English words but
in a framework[1] that's more applicable to their native language, than
have a degree in Portuguese and be able to do your job better on those
very few occasions you encounter a native Portuguese speaker.

I pick Portuguese as an example, because one of my regular
correspondents was from Uruguay, and his second language was Spanish,
English his third.

The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!

[1] One common verbal twitch was "-ed", as in "Baked Ed Bread" or Mash
Ed Potatoes". And if the short term goal (perhaps an isolated five
minute discussion) is to communicate effectively, rather than give
elocution lessons, why not use the expressions they will recognise.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <l4um3h9e20frip9pkjoihrt8eb2tn4kup1@4ax.com>, at 20:02:30 on
> Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>
>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>
>> There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>> discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>> but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>> close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>> potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>> border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>> little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>> could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>> from around the British Isles.
>
> I was often working in an environment where tick-box recruiters wanted
> two languages. My two were BBC English, and "English as a second language".
>
> It's more important to be able to instinctively switch to a simplified
> vocabulary and not worry about grammatical errors if you know the person
> you are speaking to will understand better if you use English words but
> in a framework[1] that's more applicable to their native language, than
> have a degree in Portuguese and be able to do your job better on those
> very few occasions you encounter a native Portuguese speaker.
>
> I pick Portuguese as an example, because one of my regular
> correspondents was from Uruguay, and his second language was Spanish,
> English his third.

Portuguese was his first language? Most Uruguayans speak Spanish as a
first language.

>
> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>

Not a problem I've ever encountered.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:14:43 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
>> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
>> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
>> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>>
>
>Not a problem I've ever encountered.

Depends on what part of France. Once I actually had some bint serving in
McDonalds refuse to understand my French, never mind english. Oddly though
she seemed to be quite au fait with the english swear words I directed in
her direction.

On 26/03/2022 10:18, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:14:43 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
>>> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
>>> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
>>> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>>>
>>
>> Not a problem I've ever encountered.
>
> Depends on what part of France. Once I actually had some bint serving in
> McDonalds refuse to understand my French, never mind english. Oddly though
> she seemed to be quite au fait with the english swear words I directed in
> her direction.
>

That may be the reason, I wouldn't be seen dead in McDonalds :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:32:01 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 26/03/2022 10:18, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:14:43 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
>>>> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
>>>> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
>>>> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not a problem I've ever encountered.
>>
>> Depends on what part of France. Once I actually had some bint serving in
>> McDonalds refuse to understand my French, never mind english. Oddly though
>> she seemed to be quite au fait with the english swear words I directed in
>> her direction.
>>
>
>That may be the reason, I wouldn't be seen dead in McDonalds :-)

When you've got young kids and you're on a road trip its sometimes just not
worth the hassle of trying a local restaurant. Give them a Happy Meal and
you get another hour of peace from the back seat.

In message <t1mp2j$iar$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:14:43 on Sat, 26 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <l4um3h9e20frip9pkjoihrt8eb2tn4kup1@4ax.com>, at 20:02:30
>>on Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>
>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>
>>> There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>>> discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>>> but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>>> close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>>> potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>>> border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>>> little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>>> could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>>> from around the British Isles.

>> I was often working in an environment where tick-box recruiters
>>wanted two languages. My two were BBC English, and "English as a
>>second language".

>> It's more important to be able to instinctively switch to a
>>simplified vocabulary and not worry about grammatical errors if you
>>know the person you are speaking to will understand better if you use
>>English words but in a framework[1] that's more applicable to their
>>native language, than have a degree in Portuguese and be able to do
>>your job better on those very few occasions you encounter a native
>>Portuguese speaker.

>> I pick Portuguese as an example, because one of my regular
>>correspondents was from Uruguay, and his second language was Spanish,
>>English his third.
>
>Portuguese was his first language? Most Uruguayans speak Spanish as a
>first language.

I don't know if I ever knew exactly which was his home country.
Meanwhile:

Spanish

Though the tally is close, Spanish is the most spoken language in
South America, edging out Portuguese by a few million people. Nearly
210 million South Americans speak Spanish, with the largest number
living in Colombia - about 47.2 million. Close behind is Argentina,
with 43.5 million speakers, followed by Venezuela (31.1 million), Peru
(27.4 million), Chile (18.1 million), Ecuador (15.9 million), Bolivia
(9.4 million), Paraguay (4.6 million), Uruguay (3.4 million), Brazil
(491,000) and Trinidad and Tobago (70,000).

Portuguese

Coming in at a close second is Portuguese, with around 206 million
speakers in South America. Brazil is home to the vast majority of
those speakers (over 205 million) and is the only country in South
America where Portuguese is the official language. There are also
contingents of Portuguese speakers in Venezuela (254,000), Paraguay
(212,000) and Uruguay (24,000).

>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far
>>as I know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because
>>of its currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many
>>Frenchmen to refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>
>Not a problem I've ever encountered.

What, Parisian waiters refusing to speak English, or French speakers at
International Conferences being the only ones to insist on everyone
[almost all would be able to comprehend English] having to tune into the
interpreters?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1mvft$io5$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 12:04:13 on Sat, 26 Mar
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:32:01 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 26/03/2022 10:18, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:14:43 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:

>>>>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
>>>>> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
>>>>> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
>>>>> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>>>>
>>>> Not a problem I've ever encountered.
>>>
>>> Depends on what part of France. Once I actually had some bint serving in
>>> McDonalds refuse to understand my French, never mind english. Oddly though
>>> she seemed to be quite au fait with the english swear words I directed in
>>> her direction.
>>
>>That may be the reason, I wouldn't be seen dead in McDonalds :-)
>
>When you've got young kids and you're on a road trip its sometimes just not
>worth the hassle of trying a local restaurant. Give them a Happy Meal and
>you get another hour of peace from the back seat.

Indeed, and I still bear the scars of a British Gasto-pub (when they
were quite novel) that we'd been going to for quite a while for things
like Sunday lunch, and on seeing the crib with our sleeping newborn
exclaimed "you can't bring *that* in here".

So we and our dozen friends, who had come to see us and the baby that
weekend, walked out along with our bulging wallets, for somewhere less
hostile (it wasn't a Macdonalds, but probably a more family-friendly
pub).

Longer term it just makes sense to start with somewhere you know will be
welcoming, although nowadays I note that most McD's don't have the
play-areas which were an important part of their offering in the 90's.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:17:35 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t1mvft$io5$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 12:04:13 on Sat, 26 Mar
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>When you've got young kids and you're on a road trip its sometimes just not
>>worth the hassle of trying a local restaurant. Give them a Happy Meal and
>>you get another hour of peace from the back seat.
>
>Indeed, and I still bear the scars of a British Gasto-pub (when they
>were quite novel) that we'd been going to for quite a while for things
>like Sunday lunch, and on seeing the crib with our sleeping newborn
>exclaimed "you can't bring *that* in here".

Yet probably have the football on full volume on weekends.

>Longer term it just makes sense to start with somewhere you know will be
>welcoming, although nowadays I note that most McD's don't have the
>play-areas which were an important part of their offering in the 90's.

I suppose more seats = more money. Though some of the standalone ones in
France still have them. Or did. Who knows what Covid has done in the 3 years
since we were last there.

On 26/03/2022 12:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1mp2j$iar$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:14:43 on Sat, 26 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <l4um3h9e20frip9pkjoihrt8eb2tn4kup1@4ax.com>, at 20:02:30
>>> on  Wed, 23 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>>> I read an article the other day that some woman was denied a job, even
>>>>> though doing very well in interviews, based on her Welsh accent.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's gotta be actionable.
>>>>>
>>>> There can be exceptions if in the particular circumstances the
>>>> discrimination can be justified. Usually that would be male v. female
>>>> but there can be various other special cases where e.g. you need a
>>>> close match between the interviewee and the people they will be
>>>> potentially dealing with. You could anticipate difficulty with e.g.
>>>> border staff dealing with a mixture of foreign visitors who might have
>>>> little/no difficulty communicating with a speaker of "BBC" English but
>>>> could be totally bamboozled by various dialects or versions of English
>>>> from around the British Isles.
>
>>>  I was often working in an environment where tick-box recruiters
>>> wanted  two languages. My two were BBC English, and "English as a
>>> second language".
>
>>>  It's more important to be able to instinctively switch to a
>>> simplified  vocabulary and not worry about grammatical errors if you
>>> know the person  you are speaking to will understand better if you
>>> use English words but  in a framework[1] that's more applicable to
>>> their native language, than  have a degree in Portuguese and be able
>>> to do your job better on those  very few occasions you encounter a
>>> native Portuguese speaker.
>
>>>  I pick Portuguese as an example, because one of my regular
>>> correspondents was from Uruguay, and his second language was Spanish,
>>> English his third.
>>
>> Portuguese was his first language? Most Uruguayans speak Spanish as a
>> first language.
>
> I don't know if I ever knew exactly which was his home country. Meanwhile:
>
>   Spanish
>
>   Though the tally is close, Spanish is the most spoken language in
>   South America, edging out Portuguese by a few million people. Nearly
>   210 million South Americans speak Spanish, with the largest number
>   living in Colombia - about 47.2 million. Close behind is Argentina,
>   with 43.5 million speakers, followed by Venezuela (31.1 million), Peru
>   (27.4 million), Chile (18.1 million), Ecuador (15.9 million), Bolivia
>   (9.4 million), Paraguay (4.6 million), Uruguay (3.4 million), Brazil
>   (491,000) and Trinidad and Tobago (70,000).
>
>   Portuguese
>
>   Coming in at a close second is Portuguese, with around 206 million
>   speakers in South America. Brazil is home to the vast majority of
>   those speakers (over 205 million) and is the only country in South
>   America where Portuguese is the official language. There are also
>   contingents of Portuguese speakers in Venezuela (254,000), Paraguay
>   (212,000) and Uruguay (24,000).
>
>>>  The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far
>>> as I  know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because
>>> of its  currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many
>>> Frenchmen to  refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly
>>> capable!
>>
>> Not a problem I've ever encountered.
>
> What, Parisian waiters refusing to speak English, or French speakers at
> International Conferences being the only ones to insist on everyone
> [almost all would be able to comprehend English] having to tune into the
> interpreters?

Meetings in Wales are interesting.

Welsh speakers, especially from government bodies, insist on asking
their questions in Welsh but if discussions follow these questions they
usually continue in English.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:32:01 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/03/2022 10:18, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:14:43 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/03/2022 09:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> The only foreign language which might have helped (but isn't as far as I
>>>>> know ever asked for specifically) would be French, both because of its
>>>>> currency in diplomatic circles, and the insistence of many Frenchmen to
>>>>> refuse to speak English even if they are perfectly capable!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not a problem I've ever encountered.
>>>
>>> Depends on what part of France. Once I actually had some bint serving in
>>> McDonalds refuse to understand my French, never mind english. Oddly though
>>> she seemed to be quite au fait with the english swear words I directed in
>>> her direction.
>>>
>>
>> That may be the reason, I wouldn't be seen dead in McDonalds :-)
>
> When you've got young kids and you're on a road trip its sometimes just not
> worth the hassle of trying a local restaurant. Give them a Happy Meal and
> you get another hour of peace from the back seat.
>
>
>

And usually toilets of a reasonable standard.
McDonalds is what it is, not posh cuisine but a standard that is
predictable and often better than some unknown kitchen in a place you
havn’t been to before.

They seem to have taken the place of British Rail catering as the whipping
boy for food snobs.

GH

On 26 Mar 2022 14:38:40 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> When you've got young kids and you're on a road trip its sometimes just not
>> worth the hassle of trying a local restaurant. Give them a Happy Meal and
>> you get another hour of peace from the back seat.
>>
>>
>>
>
>And usually toilets of a reasonable standard.
>McDonalds is what it is, not posh cuisine but a standard that is
>predictable and often better than some unknown kitchen in a place you
>havn’t been to before.

Yes, food poisoning is always at the back of my mind when on holiday with the
family. Annoying if you're an adult, quite serious for children so we tend to
avoid the privately owned bistros and stick to chains (not that thats a 100%
guarantee of cleanliness).

>They seem to have taken the place of British Rail catering as the whipping
>boy for food snobs.

True.