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<aj> come on <aj> it's a pico clone <aj> it's *meant* to be annoying


aus+uk / uk.railway / New tube for london

SubjectAuthor
* New tube for londonMuttley
+* New tube for londonRobin
|+* New tube for londonRecliner
||`* New tube for londonAnna Noyd-Dryver
|| `- New tube for londonRecliner
|`- New tube for londonMuttley
`* New tube for londonMarland
 `* New tube for londonNY
  `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
   `* New tube for londonMuttley
    `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     +* New tube for londonmartin.coffee
     |+- New tube for londonRoland Perry
     |`* New tube for londonRolf Mantel
     | +- New tube for londonNY
     | +* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | |+* New tube for londonRecliner
     | ||`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || +* New tube for londonRecliner
     | || |`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | +* New tube for londonRecliner
     | || | |+- New tube for londonTweed
     | || | |`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | | `* New tube for londonTweed
     | || | |  `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |   +* New tube for londonTweed
     | || | |   |`- New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |   `* New tube for londonMark Goodge
     | || | |    +* New tube for londonRecliner
     | || | |    |+* New tube for londonMarland
     | || | |    ||`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |    || `* New tube for londonCharles Ellson
     | || | |    ||  `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |    ||   +- New tube for londonCharles Ellson
     | || | |    ||   `* New tube for londonCertes
     | || | |    ||    `- New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |    |`* New tube for londonTweed
     | || | |    | `- New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |    `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |     `* New tube for londonMark Goodge
     | || | |      `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || | |       `- New tube for londonMark Goodge
     | || | `* New tube for londonAnna Noyd-Dryver
     | || |  +- New tube for londonTweed
     | || |  +* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || |  |`* New tube for londonMark Goodge
     | || |  | `- New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | || |  +- New tube for londonNigel Emery
     | || |  `* New tube for londonMark Goodge
     | || |   +- New tube for londonmartin.coffee
     | || |   `- New tube for londonAnna Noyd-Dryver
     | || `- New tube for londonAnna Noyd-Dryver
     | |`* New tube for londonRolf Mantel
     | | `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
     | |  `- New tube for londonRecliner
     | `* New tube for londonMarland
     |  +* New tube for londonmartin.coffee
     |  |`- New tube for londonMarland
     |  `- New tube for londonCertes
     `* New tube for londonMuttley
      +* New tube for londonRobin
      |+- New tube for londonMuttley
      |`* New tube for londonhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      | `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |  `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |   `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    +* New tube for londonMuttley
      |    |`* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    | +* New tube for londonMuttley
      |    | |`- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    | +* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    | |`* New tube for londonnib
      |    | | `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    | |  `* New tube for londonnib
      |    | |   `- New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    | `* New tube for londonTweed
      |    |  `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |   `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |    +- New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |    `* New tube for londonMuttley
      |    |     +* New tube for londonnib
      |    |     |+* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     ||+- New tube for londonhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
      |    |     ||`- New tube for londonCharles Ellson
      |    |     |`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |     | +* New tube for londonnib
      |    |     | |+- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     | |`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |     | | +* New tube for londonnib
      |    |     | | |+- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     | | |`* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |     | | | `- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     | | `- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     | `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     |  +* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |     |  |`- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     |  `* New tube for londonnib
      |    |     |   `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     |    `* New tube for londonnib
      |    |     |     +* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      |    |     |     |`- New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     |     `* New tube for londonRecliner
      |    |     `* New tube for londonTweed
      |    `* New tube for londonRoland Perry
      `* New tube for londonRoland Perry

Pages:12345
New tube for london

<t1sn6o$12sa$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26652&group=uk.railway#26652

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:19:36 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:19 UTC

Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4

I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was impossible
to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen. Hows
that humble pie coming along?)

Re: New tube for london

<1dddbeb7-5348-83d1-69c8-0b1d0ef679ce@outlook.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26655&group=uk.railway#26655

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway uk.transport.london
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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:38:41 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Robin - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:38 UTC

On 28/03/2022 17:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>
> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
> available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was impossible
> to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen. Hows
> that humble pie coming along?)
>

There are comments on the video claiming the smaller windows are to
reduce solar gain and to provide room for air con ducts. If true seem
to me sensible trade-offs. The more as I don't see the size of the
windows makes much if any impact on those who feel peak claustrophobia
when the train is jammed and in a tunnel.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: New tube for london

<t1sp1v$md5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:51:11 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:51 UTC

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 28/03/2022 17:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>
>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>> available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was impossible
>> to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen. Hows
>> that humble pie coming along?)
>>
>
> There are comments on the video claiming the smaller windows are to
> reduce solar gain and to provide room for air con ducts. If true seem
> to me sensible trade-offs. The more as I don't see the size of the
> windows makes much if any impact on those who feel peak claustrophobia
> when the train is jammed and in a tunnel.
>

Yes, I did wonder about aircon ducts in the pillars.

Incidentally, I wonder if the new HS2 trains will also have small windows,
as that's the norm with Shinkansens (and Hitachi has responsibility for the
body shells).

Re: New tube for london

<jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: 28 Mar 2022 17:10:09 GMT
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 by: Marland - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:10 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>
> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
> available .

Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if the
windows had pretty scenes
done in stained glass .

GH

Re: New tube for london

<t1t2iu$8jj$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:33:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:33 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 28/03/2022 17:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>
>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>> available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was impossible
>>> to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen. Hows
>>> that humble pie coming along?)
>>>
>>
>> There are comments on the video claiming the smaller windows are to
>> reduce solar gain and to provide room for air con ducts. If true seem
>> to me sensible trade-offs. The more as I don't see the size of the
>> windows makes much if any impact on those who feel peak claustrophobia
>> when the train is jammed and in a tunnel.
>>
>
> Yes, I did wonder about aircon ducts in the pillars.
>
> Incidentally, I wonder if the new HS2 trains will also have small windows,
> as that's the norm with Shinkansens (and Hitachi has responsibility for the
> body shells).
>
>

Shinkansen small windows don't have the same effect on passenger
environment as small windows on UK trains because the windows are correctly
aligned one for each row of (always forward-facing) airline seats.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: New tube for london

<t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:39:28 +0100
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 by: NY - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:39 UTC

"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>
>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO
>> and
>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>> available .
>
> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if the
> windows had pretty scenes
> done in stained glass .

The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station name on
the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the station, in
case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers, and the train is
too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now arriving at King's Cross"
or the passenger is deaf?

Re: New tube for london

<t1t7la$hh6$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26677&group=uk.railway#26677

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.transport.london uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:00:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:00 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 28/03/2022 17:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>
>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>>> available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was impossible
>>>> to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen. Hows
>>>> that humble pie coming along?)
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are comments on the video claiming the smaller windows are to
>>> reduce solar gain and to provide room for air con ducts. If true seem
>>> to me sensible trade-offs. The more as I don't see the size of the
>>> windows makes much if any impact on those who feel peak claustrophobia
>>> when the train is jammed and in a tunnel.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I did wonder about aircon ducts in the pillars.
>>
>> Incidentally, I wonder if the new HS2 trains will also have small windows,
>> as that's the norm with Shinkansens (and Hitachi has responsibility for the
>> body shells).
>>
>>
>
> Shinkansen small windows don't have the same effect on passenger
> environment as small windows on UK trains because the windows are correctly
> aligned one for each row of (always forward-facing) airline seats.

True. In effect, they're like airliners with unusually large windows,
rather than trains with small windows.

It would be nice to think the new HS2 trains would copy the Shinkansens,
but I assume that there's no chance!

Re: New tube for london

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 07:56 UTC

In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>
>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>backwards IMO and
>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>> available .
>>
>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if the
>> windows had pretty scenes
>> done in stained glass .
>
>The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?

That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:27:03 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:27 UTC

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:38:41 +0100
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>On 28/03/2022 17:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>
>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step backwards IMO and
>
>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>> available (and which certain members of these newgroups claimed was
>impossible
>> to do on a tube train because [grasping at straws] and would never happen.
>Hows
>> that humble pie coming along?)
>>
>
>There are comments on the video claiming the smaller windows are to
>reduce solar gain and to provide room for air con ducts. If true seem

Missed that bit but I'm really not convinced.

Re: New tube for london

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:30:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:30 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>
>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>backwards IMO and
>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>>> available .
>>>
>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if the
>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>> done in stained glass .
>>
>>The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>
>That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.

A very plausible one in the rush hour. Though LT/TfL seem to alternate
between small and large windows just as they do with door buttons which as
the video points out seem to have made a return. No doubt a new generation
of engineers re-inventing the mistakes of the past.

Re: New tube for london

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:17:53 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:17 UTC

In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>
>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>backwards IMO and
>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>>>> available .
>>>>
>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if the
>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>
>>>The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>
>>That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>
>A very plausible one in the rush hour.

Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will know
where they are.

>Though LT/TfL seem to alternate between small and large windows just as
>they do with door buttons which as the video points out seem to have
>made a return. No doubt a new generation of engineers re-inventing the
>mistakes of the past.

Maybe the requirements are changing, over time, too.
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:48:26 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:48 UTC

On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>> through now
>>>>>> available .
>>>>>
>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice
>>>>> if the
>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>
>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>
>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>
>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>
> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will know
> where they are.

Not all passengers can stand by the door. What are you going to do for
them?

>
>> Though LT/TfL seem to alternate between small and large windows just
>> as they do with door buttons which as the video points out seem to
>> have made a return. No doubt a new generation of engineers
>> re-inventing the mistakes of the past.
>
> Maybe the requirements are changing, over time, too.

Re: New tube for london

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:02:57 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:02 UTC

In message <t1ukla$nlc$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:26 on Tue, 29 Mar
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>
>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>
>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>
>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.

>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>know where they are.
>
>Not all passengers can stand by the door. What are you going to do for
>them?

Declare them to be even more of an edge case. Perhaps they could
try counting stations, if absolutely all the other indications are
unavailable to them.

>>> Though LT/TfL seem to alternate between small and large windows just
>>>as they do with door buttons which as the video points out seem to
>>>have made a return. No doubt a new generation of engineers
>>>re-inventing the mistakes of the past.
>> Maybe the requirements are changing, over time, too.
>

--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:33:03 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:33 UTC

Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>> through now
>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice
>>>>>> if the
>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>
>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>
>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>
>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>
>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will know
>> where they are.
>
> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do for
> them?

So, we have three layers of information:
1) on-board display
2) station announcement
3) roundel on station wall

As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
I have to leave the train.

The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.

Rolf

Re: New tube for london

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Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
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 by: NY - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:50 UTC

"Rolf Mantel" <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote in message
news:t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me...

> So, we have three layers of information:
> 1) on-board display
> 2) station announcement
> 3) roundel on station wall
>
> As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
> can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
> unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language problems);
> as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when I have to
> leave the train.
>
> The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
> mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.

As a frequent tourist to London (I didn't live there but I went for a day
out every month or so) I tended to use the roundel on the station wall
almost exclusively to work out where I was. I may have counted stations once
I'd got a "location fix" but I backed that up with a check once I got within
a few stops of where I wanted to go. I also checked very carefully as soon
as I got on a train to make certain that the first station I arrived at was
the one I expected, as a check that I hadn't got on the train going in the
opposite direction (*) - that's as a last-resort check after I've checked
the signs where the up/down platforms separate from the central lobby, and
after checking the map that's on the opposite wall to each platform
entrance.

This was in the days before trains routinely had on-board displays/voice.

(*) I remember one of my first trips to London was a school trip to the Old
Bailey (criminal court) when I was in the 5th form. Several of us got
separated from the group as we made our way back from St Paul's to
Marylebone. My group got on a train on the right line but the wrong
direction (maybe at Oxford Circus we got on a Bakerloo train to Piccadilly
Circus instead of Marylebone), realised our mistake almost immediately but
had to wait for the next train in the correct direction, hoping that we'd
make it to Marylebone in time for the train, because the teacher in charge
had both our underground and BR tickets. We made it just in time - sprinting
along the very long passageways from Marylebone platforms to the escalator,
bounding up the escalator two steps at a time, thankful that everyone was
obeying the "stand on the right" rule. We found our teacher going frantic.
We made it onto the train with about 10 seconds to spare before the guard
blew his whistle.

Re: New tube for london

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:21 UTC

In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>
>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>
>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>know where they are.
>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>for them?
>
>So, we have three layers of information:
>1) on-board display
>2) station announcement
>3) roundel on station wall
>
>As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>I have to leave the train.
>
>The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.

I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Message-ID: <u5r54h54qf1g7lanuf1pqo1ejgu0dsbmos@4ax.com>
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:26 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
>2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>
>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>>know where they are.
>>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>>for them?
>>
>>So, we have three layers of information:
>>1) on-board display
>>2) station announcement
>>3) roundel on station wall
>>
>>As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>>can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>>unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>>problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>>I have to leave the train.
>>
>>The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>
>I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
>yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.

No, I think it's some way off yet. But that doesn't stop people being people being buried in their (off-line) devices.

Re: New tube for london

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:39:19 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:39 UTC

Am 29.03.2022 um 13:21 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>> through now
>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>> notice  if the
>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>
>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>> know  where they are.
>>>  Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>> for  them?
>>
>> So, we have three layers of information:
>> 1) on-board display
>> 2) station announcement
>> 3) roundel on station wall
>>
>> As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my
>> group can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if
>> I was unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>> problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and
>> when I have to leave the train.
>>
>> The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>> mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>
> I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
> yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.

You can play Sudoku, you you can download the newspaper before entering
and read during the journey.

Rolf "no mobile coverage for most of my 10-minute, 2 stop commute"

Re: New tube for london

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:02:52 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:02 UTC

In message <u5r54h54qf1g7lanuf1pqo1ejgu0dsbmos@4ax.com>, at 12:26:52 on
Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>>>know where they are.
>>>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>>>for them?
>>>
>>>So, we have three layers of information:
>>>1) on-board display
>>>2) station announcement
>>>3) roundel on station wall
>>>
>>>As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>>>can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>>>unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>>>problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>>>I have to leave the train.
>>>
>>>The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>>
>>I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
>>yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>
>No, I think it's some way off yet. But that doesn't stop people being
>people being buried in their (off-line) devices.

In my experience it stops most people. What are they doing otherwise,
tidying up their contact lists?
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Message-ID: <nlt54h1bh97qd6m7302pin8bqleidm66b4@4ax.com>
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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:12:13 +0100
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:12 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:02:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <u5r54h54qf1g7lanuf1pqo1ejgu0dsbmos@4ax.com>, at 12:26:52 on
>Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>>>>know where they are.
>>>>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>>>>for them?
>>>>
>>>>So, we have three layers of information:
>>>>1) on-board display
>>>>2) station announcement
>>>>3) roundel on station wall
>>>>
>>>>As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>>>>can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>>>>unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>>>>problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>>>>I have to leave the train.
>>>>
>>>>The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>>>
>>>I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
>>>yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>>
>>No, I think it's some way off yet. But that doesn't stop people being
>>people being buried in their (off-line) devices.
>
>In my experience it stops most people. What are they doing otherwise,
>tidying up their contact lists?

I suspect you haven't travelled much on deep underground Tube trains for years. People could be playing games, reading
newspapers or magazines, watching a film or video, catching up on their mail, listening to a podcast, etc. Games are
probably the most common activity.

Re: New tube for london

<dz5SKwj3YvQiFAzm@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:06:15 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:06 UTC

In message <t1ur57$ae9$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:39:19 on Tue, 29 Mar
2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:

>>> The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.

>> I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone
>>live yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>
>You can play Sudoku, you you can download the newspaper before entering
>and read during the journey.
>
>Rolf "no mobile coverage for most of my 10-minute, 2 stop commute"

I know someone who has the presence of mind to pre-download podcast, but
they don't require looking at the screen.

If I had coverage, I'd probably be looking up which platform my
connecting mainline train was predicted to be departing from (it's
not always correct). Or maybe chatting on WhatsApp, but that requires
connectivity, and tube trains bounce around rather a lot to be using the
tiny on-screen keyboard.
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Message-ID: <8bu54h5sgt07dr7001npg2idffvbos6lhb@4ax.com>
References: <t1sn6o$12sa$1@gioia.aioe.org> <jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net> <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me> <r9R$JyLXurQiFA0M@perry.uk> <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org> <OcEmRzQB7sQiFAiT@perry.uk> <t1ukla$nlc$1@dont-email.me> <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me> <HtX0tHdOvuQiFAA8@perry.uk> <t1ur57$ae9$1@dont-email.me> <dz5SKwj3YvQiFAzm@perry.uk>
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:22 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:06:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1ur57$ae9$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:39:19 on Tue, 29 Mar
>2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>
>>>> The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>
>>> I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone
>>>live yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>>
>>You can play Sudoku, you you can download the newspaper before entering
>>and read during the journey.
>>
>>Rolf "no mobile coverage for most of my 10-minute, 2 stop commute"
>
>I know someone who has the presence of mind to pre-download podcast, but
>they don't require looking at the screen.
>
>If I had coverage, I'd probably be looking up which platform my
>connecting mainline train was predicted to be departing from (it's
>not always correct). Or maybe chatting on WhatsApp, but that requires
>connectivity, and tube trains bounce around rather a lot to be using the
>tiny on-screen keyboard.

You (and most of us here, including me) aren't a typical daily Tube user. Most of them aren't connecting with a mainline
train, and they seem to have no trouble using their touchscreens one-handed on bouncing Tube trains.

Re: New tube for london

<0StICBnl9vQiFAUK@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:45:25 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:45 UTC

In message <nlt54h1bh97qd6m7302pin8bqleidm66b4@4ax.com>, at 13:12:13 on
Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:02:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u5r54h54qf1g7lanuf1pqo1ejgu0dsbmos@4ax.com>, at 12:26:52 on
>>Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>through now
>>>>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>>>>>notice if the
>>>>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>>>>>know where they are.
>>>>>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>>>>>for them?
>>>>>
>>>>>So, we have three layers of information:
>>>>>1) on-board display
>>>>>2) station announcement
>>>>>3) roundel on station wall
>>>>>
>>>>>As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>>>>>can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>>>>>unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>>>>>problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>>>>>I have to leave the train.
>>>>>
>>>>>The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>>>mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>>>>
>>>>I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
>>>>yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>>>
>>>No, I think it's some way off yet. But that doesn't stop people being
>>>people being buried in their (off-line) devices.
>>
>>In my experience it stops most people. What are they doing otherwise,
>>tidying up their contact lists?
>
>I suspect you haven't travelled much on deep underground Tube trains
>for years.

During Covid, not very many people at all were!

>People could be playing games, reading newspapers or magazines,
>watching a film or video, catching up on their mail, listening to a
>podcast, etc. Games are probably the most common activity.

I'd get pretty bored playing games that much. Which newspapers are best
for downloading and reading offline? I have to say my own preference is
to read small bits of a dozen newspapers, rather than most of just one.
You get a far more balanced view.
--
Roland Perry

Re: New tube for london

<t1v33a$b4j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:54:50 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:54 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <nlt54h1bh97qd6m7302pin8bqleidm66b4@4ax.com>, at 13:12:13 on
> Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:02:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u5r54h54qf1g7lanuf1pqo1ejgu0dsbmos@4ax.com>, at 12:26:52 on
>>> Tue, 29 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:21:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t1un8v$c5r$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:33:03 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>>>> Am 29.03.2022 um 11:48 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>>>>> On 29/03/2022 10:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards IMO  and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> through now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> available .
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>>>>>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even
>>>>>>>>>>>> notice if the
>>>>>>>>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>>>>>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>>>>>>>> name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>>>>>>>> station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>>>>>>>> arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will
>>>>>>>> know where they are.
>>>>>>> Not all passengers can stand by the door.  What are you going to do
>>>>>>> for them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, we have three layers of information:
>>>>>> 1) on-board display
>>>>>> 2) station announcement
>>>>>> 3) roundel on station wall
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a tourist, I've always made sure that I or somebody else in my group
>>>>>> can see the on-board display (typically counting stops on top if I was
>>>>>> unable to understand the announcement due to noise or language
>>>>>> problems); as a tourist, I am extremely focussed on where I am and when
>>>>>> I have to leave the train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The roundel is more relevant for the commuter who is absorbed by his
>>>>>> mobile phone and sees the outside world only by the edge of his eyes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the mobile coverage in London tube tunnels has gone live
>>>>> yet. Or if it has, I missed the hoo-ha.
>>>>
>>>> No, I think it's some way off yet. But that doesn't stop people being
>>>> people being buried in their (off-line) devices.
>>>
>>> In my experience it stops most people. What are they doing otherwise,
>>> tidying up their contact lists?
>>
>> I suspect you haven't travelled much on deep underground Tube trains
>> for years.
>
> During Covid, not very many people at all were!
>
>> People could be playing games, reading newspapers or magazines,
>> watching a film or video, catching up on their mail, listening to a
>> podcast, etc. Games are probably the most common activity.
>
> I'd get pretty bored playing games that much.

As I said, you're not a typical daily Tube traveller.

> Which newspapers are best
> for downloading and reading offline?

Any with an app, such as the Times and Telegraph.

> I have to say my own preference is
> to read small bits of a dozen newspapers, rather than most of just one.
> You get a far more balanced view.

Only if it's free to read. So, no Times, Telegraph or FT.

Re: New tube for london

<t1v77q$1nsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26760&group=uk.railway#26760

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: New tube for london
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:05:30 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:05 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:17:53 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t1ug2j$efu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:11 on Tue, 29 Mar
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:56:07 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t1t6f1$81d$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:39:28 on Mon, 28 Mar
>>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>"Marland" <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:jae8fhF567eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Geoff Marshall reviews the mock up:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMZqprWIU4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I *really* don't like the small windows. Its a massive step
>>>>>>backwards IMO and
>>>>>> will make the trains feel claustrophobic even with the walk through now
>>>>>> available .
>>>>>
>>>>> Most people on the tube seem to be staring at a hand held screen
>>>>> while they travel nowadays , they probably wouldn’t even notice if
>the
>>>>> windows had pretty scenes
>>>>> done in stained glass .
>>>>
>>>>The crucial thing is: can a standing passenger still see the station
>>>>name on the roundel on the station wall as a train is coming into the
>>>>station, in case the on-board display is hidden by other passengers,
>>>>and the train is too noisy to hear the automated voice "We are now
>>>>arriving at King's Cross" or the passenger is deaf?
>>>
>>>That's an impressive confluence of edge cases.
>>
>>A very plausible one in the rush hour.
>
>Stand by the doors if you an irregular user, commuters(sic) will know
>where they are.

Not always if you're engrossed in a paper/phone/chatting.

>>Though LT/TfL seem to alternate between small and large windows just as
>>they do with door buttons which as the video points out seem to have
>>made a return. No doubt a new generation of engineers re-inventing the
>>mistakes of the past.
>
>Maybe the requirements are changing, over time, too.

I don't see how. Its not as if new tunnels have been built or human anatomy
has changed.

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