On 15/03/2022 18:19, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>
>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>> choice of
>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>> engineer from the very non imperial United States
> The Russian empire was nothing like the US in the C19th. One was a
> land-based power with a small core of European-esque civilisation which
> expanded rapidly across the continent towards the far sea and down to
> take land from the wild territories to the south, whether the natives
> liked it or not and against some resistance, and made use of labour
> under very dodgy terms. The other is some place with vodka and bears.
>

Russia also started to expand in, I think, the 16th century and in a
manner not dissimilar to the United States. I thus would not reduce them
to just those stereotypes.

On 15/03/2022 18:21, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 01:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet
>>>> Union
>>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>>
>>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to  1,520 mm and
>>> its
>>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>>
>> The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
>> Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>>
>>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>>> choice of
>>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>>> already seen some use.
>>
>> Did not know that.
>>
>>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was
>>> built
>>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange
>>> description
>>> to give to the gauge.
>>
>> I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
>> October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520,
>
> In the 1970s.
>
>> for some reason,
>
> Better rolling stock behavour, apparently.
>
>> though Finland kept it at 1,524.
>
> Finland was very long since independent.
>
>
Finland gained independence from Russia in 1918.

On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2022 18:48:08 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2022 01:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 14/03/2022 23:23, Marland wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poland uses standard gauge, whereas republics of the former Soviet Union
>>>>>> use Imperial at 1,520mm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J.O.I why do you attribute the term imperial to 1520mm gauge?
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I would not rule it out I don’t think I have seen imperial used
>>>>> elsewhere to describe it with most sources referring to  1,520 mm and its
>>>>> earlier incarnation of 1,524mm as Russian Gauge.
>>>>
>>>> The 1520/1524 gauge came about under the Russian Empire, AIUI, hence
>>>> Imperial Gauge. That's how I understood it.
>>>>
>>>>> While Russia did indeed control imperially a large territory the
>>>>> choice of
>>>>> its gauge was made after following the recommendation  of a consultant
>>>>> engineer from the very non imperial United States where the gauge had
>>>>> already seen some use.
>>>>
>>>> Did not know that.
>>>>
>>>>> Though I haven’t researched it I would think most 1524-1520 track was
>>>>> built
>>>>> after the fall of imperial Russia in 1917 so it seems a strange
>>>>> description
>>>>> to give to the gauge.
>>>>
>>>> I can tell you that this was not the case. It was 1524 before the
>>>> October Revolution. The new authorities changed it to 1,520,
>>>
>>> In the 1970s.
>>>
>>>> for some reason,
>>>
>>> Better rolling stock behavour, apparently.
>>>
>>
>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>> the reason why though.
>>
> Not just LU apparently :-
> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>
> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."

What is hunting in this case?

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:

>>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>>> the reason why though.
>>>
>> Not just LU apparently :-
>> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>>
>> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
>> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
>> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
>> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."
>
> What is hunting in this case?
>

It is when an axle set or a bogie of a rail vehicle instead of proceeding
smoothly along the rails
also has an element of side to motion.
This you tube link shows from 2.40 a bogie (or as it is in the US a truck)
exhibiting the behaviour clearly
< https://youtu.be/5sVbCRLEZCE>

ISTR that UK brake vans could often suffer from it.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:
>
>>>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>>>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>>>> the reason why though.
>>>>
>>> Not just LU apparently :-
>>> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>>>
>>> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
>>> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
>>> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
>>> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."
>>
>> What is hunting in this case?
>>
>
> It is when an axle set or a bogie of a rail vehicle instead of proceeding
> smoothly along the rails
> also has an element of side to motion.
> This you tube link shows from 2.40 a bogie (or as it is in the US a truck)
> exhibiting the behaviour clearly
> < https://youtu.be/5sVbCRLEZCE>
>
> ISTR that UK brake vans could often suffer from it.

IIUC (and IANAExpert) it’s because of the self-steering nature of coned
wheels on rails. It’s desirable for a wheelset to oscillate gently from
side to side so that it stays approximately centred between the rails. If
the oscillations get too large or too rapid then that’s hunting. Yaw
dampers on modern high speed bogies are one of the features used to control
it. That’s more difficult on fixed wheelbase vehicles.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>
>>>>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>>>>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>>>>> the reason why though.
>>>>>
>>>> Not just LU apparently :-
>>>> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>>>>
>>>> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
>>>> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
>>>> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
>>>> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."
>>>
>>> What is hunting in this case?
>>>
>>
>> It is when an axle set or a bogie of a rail vehicle instead of proceeding
>> smoothly along the rails
>> also has an element of side to motion.
>> This you tube link shows from 2.40 a bogie (or as it is in the US a truck)
>> exhibiting the behaviour clearly
>> < https://youtu.be/5sVbCRLEZCE>
>>
>> ISTR that UK brake vans could often suffer from it.
>
> IIUC (and IANAExpert) it’s because of the self-steering nature of coned
> wheels on rails. It’s desirable for a wheelset to oscillate gently from
> side to side so that it stays approximately centred between the rails. If
> the oscillations get too large or too rapid then that’s hunting. Yaw
> dampers on modern high speed bogies are one of the features used to control
> it. That’s more difficult on fixed wheelbase vehicles.

Don't all rail vehicles have fixed wheelbases?

Several modern trains have had cracking problems with the yaw damper arms,
which are often quite slender, or mounted on inadequate or badly welded
fixing plates on the bodies. It's going to cost Hitachi many millions to
fix this problem.

On 15/03/2022 22:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>>> Russian Empire.
>>
>> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
>> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet and
>> Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.
>
> That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in the
> Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second Polish
> Republic until World War II.
>
>> Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons
>> (maybe).
>
> Much like Sicily.
>
>

Don't think the Arabs got to the Crimea.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 16/03/2022 05:35, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>>>>>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>>>>>> the reason why though.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not just LU apparently :-
>>>>> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>>>>>
>>>>> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
>>>>> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
>>>>> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
>>>>> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."
>>>>
>>>> What is hunting in this case?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is when an axle set or a bogie of a rail vehicle instead of proceeding
>>> smoothly along the rails
>>> also has an element of side to motion.
>>> This you tube link shows from 2.40 a bogie (or as it is in the US a truck)
>>> exhibiting the behaviour clearly
>>> < https://youtu.be/5sVbCRLEZCE>
>>>
>>> ISTR that UK brake vans could often suffer from it.
>>
>> IIUC (and IANAExpert) it’s because of the self-steering nature of coned
>> wheels on rails. It’s desirable for a wheelset to oscillate gently from
>> side to side so that it stays approximately centred between the rails. If
>> the oscillations get too large or too rapid then that’s hunting. Yaw
>> dampers on modern high speed bogies are one of the features used to control
>> it. That’s more difficult on fixed wheelbase vehicles.
>
> Don't all rail vehicles have fixed wheelbases?

No, most have bogies these days.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16/03/2022 05:35, Recliner wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/03/2022 20:27, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Somewhere I’m sure I came across information that the London Underground
>>>>>>> was or is a few mm less than the std 1435mm, possibly 1432mm. Don’t know
>>>>>>> the reason why though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not just LU apparently :-
>>>>>> https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31893/lul-track-gauge
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "BR decided to change track gauge from 1435mm (4ft 8.5in) from the 60s
>>>>>> onwards in a misguided attempt to reduce hunting. All of the "F"
>>>>>> sleepers are set to 1432mm. They reversed this in 1996. All the "G"
>>>>>> sleepers (and 5F40s) are set to 1435mm."
>>>>>
>>>>> What is hunting in this case?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is when an axle set or a bogie of a rail vehicle instead of proceeding
>>>> smoothly along the rails
>>>> also has an element of side to motion.
>>>> This you tube link shows from 2.40 a bogie (or as it is in the US a truck)
>>>> exhibiting the behaviour clearly
>>>> < https://youtu.be/5sVbCRLEZCE>
>>>>
>>>> ISTR that UK brake vans could often suffer from it.
>>>
>>> IIUC (and IANAExpert) it’s because of the self-steering nature of coned
>>> wheels on rails. It’s desirable for a wheelset to oscillate gently from
>>> side to side so that it stays approximately centred between the rails. If
>>> the oscillations get too large or too rapid then that’s hunting. Yaw
>>> dampers on modern high speed bogies are one of the features used to control
>>> it. That’s more difficult on fixed wheelbase vehicles.
>>
>> Don't all rail vehicles have fixed wheelbases?
>
> No, most have bogies these days.

I can see what Recliner means, though. To apply yaw damping to a 4-wheel
wagon would need a constrained coupling to the next vehicle, which is more
difficult.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 16/03/2022 07:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 22:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>>>> Russian Empire.
>>>
>>> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
>>> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet and
>>> Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.
>>
>> That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in
>> the Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second Polish
>> Republic until World War II.
>>
>>> Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons
>>> (maybe).
>>
>> Much like Sicily.
>>
>>
>
> Don't think the Arabs got to the Crimea.
>
Irrelevant if it is Arabs or not who got to Crimea, I'm just saying that
a lot of people have colonised it.

On 16/03/2022 14:17, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 16/03/2022 07:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 22:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>>>>> Russian Empire.
>>>>
>>>> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
>>>> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet
>>>> and Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.
>>>
>>> That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in
>>> the Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second
>>> Polish Republic until World War II.
>>>
>>>> Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even Anglo-Saxons
>>>> (maybe).
>>>
>>> Much like Sicily.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Don't think the Arabs got to the Crimea.
>>
> Irrelevant if it is Arabs or not who got to Crimea, I'm just saying that
> a lot of people have colonised it.

The Arabs did get to Sicily, the Anglo-Saxons didn't colonise either
place. NB The Normans did colonise Sicily but that was just before they
colonised Britain.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 16/03/2022 14:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 16/03/2022 14:17, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 16/03/2022 07:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2022 22:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>>> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>>>>>> Russian Empire.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
>>>>> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet
>>>>> and Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.
>>>>
>>>> That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in
>>>> the Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second
>>>> Polish Republic until World War II.
>>>>
>>>>> Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even
>>>>> Anglo-Saxons (maybe).
>>>>
>>>> Much like Sicily.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't think the Arabs got to the Crimea.
>>>
>> Irrelevant if it is Arabs or not who got to Crimea, I'm just saying
>> that a lot of people have colonised it.
>
> The Arabs did get to Sicily, the Anglo-Saxons didn't colonise either
> place.

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/05/medieval-new-england-black-sea.html

--
Arthur Figgis

On 16/03/2022 18:36, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 16/03/2022 14:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 16/03/2022 14:17, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 16/03/2022 07:42, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2022 22:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 15/03/2022 18:32, Arthur Figgis wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/03/2022 11:46, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ukraine, the Baltic States and Finland were once all part of the
>>>>>>> Russian Empire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depends which bits of Ukraine, and when. Someone could be
>>>>>> Austro-Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, independent, Hungarian, Soviet
>>>>>> and Ukrainian without ever leaving their village.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's true. A small part of Western Ukraine was part of Hungary in
>>>>> the Austro-Hungarian Empire, whilst Lviv was part of the Second
>>>>> Polish Republic until World War II.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Crimea has been colonised by pretty much everyone, even
>>>>>> Anglo-Saxons (maybe).
>>>>>
>>>>> Much like Sicily.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't think the Arabs got to the Crimea.
>>>>
>>> Irrelevant if it is Arabs or not who got to Crimea, I'm just saying
>>> that a lot of people have colonised it.
>>
>> The Arabs did get to Sicily, the Anglo-Saxons didn't colonise either
>> place.
>
> https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/05/medieval-new-england-black-sea.html
>
>
>
>

Thanks, I'd never heard of that before. I knew about the English
contingent in the Varengian Guard but that was it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 13/03/2022 15:56, tony sayer wrote:
>
> Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
> 5-escaping-ukraine>

Today's Guardian has a photo essay on a similar theme.
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/31/the-people-who-keep-the-refugee-trains-running-out-of-ukraine-photo-essay>

On 31/03/2022 11:29, Certes wrote:
> On 13/03/2022 15:56, tony sayer wrote:
>>
>> Should be interesting, running a railway under war conditions!...
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0015qlt/our-world-platform-
>> 5-escaping-ukraine>
>
> Today's Guardian has a photo essay on a similar theme.
> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/31/the-people-who-keep-the-refugee-trains-running-out-of-ukraine-photo-essay>
>