UEFI -v- Legacy -v- MBR -v- GPT

I set up dual boot on a laptop with Ubuntu MATE dual booting with Window
10. Ubuntu has come on by leaps and bounds but in the end I decided to
drop it. Backing out and removing GRUB can be a problem so I decided I'd
reinstall Win 10. However, having booted from a thumbdrive the installer
couldn't find any drives to install to (it couldn't even see the
thumbdrive it had booted from) even though the laptop happily booted in to
Windows.

Googling came up with two possibilities:

Install Intel Rapid Storage Technology (IRST) driver

Disable Intel Volume Management Device (VMD) technology

I did the second first and was able to do a cleanish install but it's a
GPT system so there are around 97 small partitions dotted around.

My preferred course of backing up the OS is to use Acronis to image the
primary partition under MBR, it's less than 10 minutes to image it and
less than 10 minute to put it back on if all goes pear shaped. Can I
achieve this with a UEFI BIOS? I can turn off secure boot but there are no
legacy options so I think I have to use GPT (I still can't get a grip on
the relationship between all the options). Assuming MBR is no longer an
option is it possible to install to one GPT partition that I could image?
I don't mind experimenting but I don't want to end up with am unusable
laptop if possible.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to get along without it.

Am 26.11.2022 um 14:42:20 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> Install Intel Rapid Storage Technology (IRST) driver
> Disable Intel Volume Management Device (VMD) technology

Disable both for a good dual boot environment.

> I did the second first and was able to do a cleanish install but it's
> a GPT system so there are around 97 small partitions dotted around.

That is completely strange.
I recommend the following:

Disable the Legacy boot support, so only UEFI can be used.
Delete you partition table and create a GPT table.

Then install both operating systems in UEFI mode.

On 29/11/2022 in message <tm4fic$27kv2$3@dont-email.me> Marco Moock wrote:

>Am 26.11.2022 um 14:42:20 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:
>
>>Install Intel Rapid Storage Technology (IRST) driver
>>Disable Intel Volume Management Device (VMD) technology
>
>Disable both for a good dual boot environment.

I thought the days of pressing F2 to install drivers were behind us but it
seems UEFI has brought them back.

>>I did the second first and was able to do a cleanish install but it's
>>a GPT system so there are around 97 small partitions dotted around.
>
>That is completely strange.
>I recommend the following:
>
>Disable the Legacy boot support, so only UEFI can be used.
>Delete you partition table and create a GPT table.
>
>Then install both operating systems in UEFI mode.

That's where I am at the moment and I was hoping to move to MBR as it is
easier to image thus avoiding having to re-register heaps of software.
However, I don't think the BIOS has an SCM module, I am trying to put a
question in to Asus support but the information they ask for before I can
even ask the question is astonishing!

Many thanks :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All things being equal, fat people use more soap

On 26/11/2022 in message <xn0npthzdnsgzwo000@news.individual.net> Jeff
Gaines wrote:

[snipped]

In case anybody has a similar question the machine is:

Asus ExpertBook B1 B1500CEAE

and Asus support says:

"If I understand correctly you are looking to boot from an MBR drive on
your device?
Unfortunately, as this is a laptop, the BIOS of this device doesn't have a
lot of options and secure boot/CSM options are limited."

So no MBR option available. They go on to say that no manual is available
for the UEFI BIOS I would need to ask any questions on an individual basis.

Progress in the computer world seems designed to cause problems for users.
I can't connect Outlook 2007 to an Exchange account any more, I would need
to buy a newer version so MSFT is driving sales by stopping support for
older versions.

Yahoo no longer supplies application passwords so it's webmail or nothing.

Oh well, Christmas is coming, it'll be Noddy Holder time again soon!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
I take full responsibility for what happened - that is why the person that
was responsible went immediately.
(Gordon Brown, April 2009)

Am 30.11.2022 um 14:44:35 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> So no MBR option available. They go on to say that no manual is
> available for the UEFI BIOS I would need to ask any questions on an
> individual basis.

UEFI is the standard since 10 years. Every current OS supports it, so
vendors drop support for classic BIOS boot.
> Progress in the computer world seems designed to cause problems for
> users. I can't connect Outlook 2007 to an Exchange account any more,
> I would need to buy a newer version so MSFT is driving sales by
> stopping support for older versions.

Office 2007 is EoL since 2017, so don't expect it will work with newer
version. Try to use a Firefox from 10 years ago and you can't connect
to current webservers.

> Yahoo no longer supplies application passwords so it's webmail or
> nothing.

That is really annoying, but why don't you switch your provider or
host it yourself?

On 01/12/2022 in message <tmahp8$2qn8m$3@dont-email.me> Marco Moock wrote:

>Am 30.11.2022 um 14:44:35 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:
>
>>So no MBR option available. They go on to say that no manual is
>>available for the UEFI BIOS I would need to ask any questions on an
>>individual basis.
>
>UEFI is the standard since 10 years. Every current OS supports it, so
>vendors drop support for classic BIOS boot.

MBR is much easier to back up - install OS, install MS Office & anything
else that needs activation, activate it all then image it, any problems
put the image back on. I don't even know which partition is important in
UEFI/GPT but suspect I would need to image more than one which may or may
not be possible

>>Progress in the computer world seems designed to cause problems for
>>users. I can't connect Outlook 2007 to an Exchange account any more,
>>I would need to buy a newer version so MSFT is driving sales by
>>stopping support for older versions.
>
>Office 2007 is EoL since 2017, so don't expect it will work with newer
>version. Try to use a Firefox from 10 years ago and you can't connect
>to current webservers.

I don't see why Outlook 2007 shouldn't have a patch to connect to
Exchange. I run Office '97 on a couple of machines and it absolutely flies
and it doesn't have the stupid ribbon taking up screen space.

>>Yahoo no longer supplies application passwords so it's webmail or
>>nothing.
>
>That is really annoying, but why don't you switch your provider or
>host it yourself?

I have half a dozen domains but I wanted one mainstream to be the central
point for contacts/calendar.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not
expect to sit.

Am 01.12.2022 um 17:13:31 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> MBR is much easier to back up - install OS, install MS Office &
> anything else that needs activation, activate it all then image it,
> any problems put the image back on. I don't even know which partition
> is important in UEFI/GPT but suspect I would need to image more than
> one which may or may not be possible

You of course need to backup the EFI partition (if UEFI install,
optional for Linux, but required for Windows on GPT) and any boot
partitions that may exist if using GNU/Linux. Windows also has some
Recovery Partitions. I recommend creating an image of the entire disk.
Then in the UEFI there is a boot entry for you OS boot manager (e.g.
grub2 for most Linuxes, bootmgr for Windows). You need to recreate
that, but the Windows DVD can do that for you with boot repair.

> I don't see why Outlook 2007 shouldn't have a patch to connect to
> Exchange. I run Office '97 on a couple of machines and it absolutely
> flies and it doesn't have the stupid ribbon taking up screen space.

Then try out LibreOffice, it also has the classic interface.
MS doesn't care about EoL versions anymore and wants their customers to
buy licenses for the new versions/switch to Office 365.

On 04/12/2022 in message <tmih05$3mdgd$3@dont-email.me> Marco Moock wrote:

>Am 01.12.2022 um 17:13:31 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:
>
>>MBR is much easier to back up - install OS, install MS Office &
>>anything else that needs activation, activate it all then image it,
>>any problems put the image back on. I don't even know which partition
>>is important in UEFI/GPT but suspect I would need to image more than
>>one which may or may not be possible
>
>You of course need to backup the EFI partition (if UEFI install,
>optional for Linux, but required for Windows on GPT) and any boot
>partitions that may exist if using GNU/Linux. Windows also has some
>Recovery Partitions. I recommend creating an image of the entire disk.
>Then in the UEFI there is a boot entry for you OS boot manager (e.g.
>grub2 for most Linuxes, bootmgr for Windows). You need to recreate
>that, but the Windows DVD can do that for you with boot repair.

I put Win 10 back on my big iron today, Brave is threatening not to update
on Win 8.1 in future. It took 20 minutes to put the image back on the MBR
drive and everything is there and activated. I think I have overcome its
propensity to whine about harmless programs by excluding everything except
the "C" drive from its scans. I may put downloads somewhere that gets
scanned as that's where all incoming files go.
If it was UEFI I wouldn't even know where to start in imaging it or what
software would do it .

>>I don't see why Outlook 2007 shouldn't have a patch to connect to
>>Exchange. I run Office '97 on a couple of machines and it absolutely
>>flies and it doesn't have the stupid ribbon taking up screen space.
>
>Then try out LibreOffice, it also has the classic interface.
>MS doesn't care about EoL versions anymore and wants their customers to
>buy licenses for the new versions/switch to Office 365.

I use Libre Office on Ubuntu and eM Client on windows as a PIM, it's quite
good but the company is run by its programmers and sadly concentrates on
adding themes and theme managers instead of sorting out the technical
issues.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
I take full responsibility for what happened - that is why the person that
was responsible went immediately.
(Gordon Brown, April 2009)

Am 04.12.2022 um 22:45:55 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> If it was UEFI I wouldn't even know where to start in imaging it or
> what software would do it .

It is unrelated to UEFI. Only the boot process itself is controlled by
UEFI.
You can have a GPT disk in a 20 year old BIOS machine.
Tools like dd can create an image of an entire disk, regardless of the
file systems and partition tables on it.

On 05/12/2022 in message <tmkctn$3tj1k$7@dont-email.me> Marco Moock wrote:

>Am 04.12.2022 um 22:45:55 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:
>
>>If it was UEFI I wouldn't even know where to start in imaging it or
>>what software would do it .
>
>It is unrelated to UEFI. Only the boot process itself is controlled by
>UEFI.
>You can have a GPT disk in a 20 year old BIOS machine.
>Tools like dd can create an image of an entire disk, regardless of the
>file systems and partition tables on it.

If I have understood it though (and I may not have) just having an image
of one GPT partition will not necessarily fix a broken machine. A GPT
drive needs an EFI partition to be able to boot?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The first five days after the weekend are the hardest.

Am 05.12.2022 um 09:29:32 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> If I have understood it though (and I may not have) just having an
> image of one GPT partition will not necessarily fix a broken machine.
> A GPT drive needs an EFI partition to be able to boot?

No. GPT can be used without UEFI on Linux, but Windows doesn't support
that. Only for Windows you need MBR partition table for BIOS boot, GPT
partition tables for UEFI boot. Ubuntu can properly boot from GPT disks
on a good old BIOS system.

If you like to boot with the UEFI mechanism, you need an EFI partition.
It is a normal partition that can be accessed and cloned.
The only relevant difference is that on UEFI systems a setting in the
UEFI (saved on Motherboard) is required.
This is why you can't just swap disks from one machine to another.
Run grub-install/Windows boot repair to create that entry when you
moved a disk.

On 05/12/2022 in message <tmke4p$3tj1k$9@dont-email.me> Marco Moock wrote:

>Am 05.12.2022 um 09:29:32 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:
>
>>If I have understood it though (and I may not have) just having an
>>image of one GPT partition will not necessarily fix a broken machine.
>>A GPT drive needs an EFI partition to be able to boot?
>
>No. GPT can be used without UEFI on Linux, but Windows doesn't support
>that. Only for Windows you need MBR partition table for BIOS boot, GPT
>partition tables for UEFI boot. Ubuntu can properly boot from GPT disks
>on a good old BIOS system.

As part of my learning process I set up a laptop for MBR and Legacy Only.
I then installed Ubuntu-MATE and the install went well and it updated as
it installed (that's a real boon). It then said remove the install media
and press enter which I did. However, it could not boot. I entered the
BIOS and set it to UEFI or Legacy and re-booted and Ubuntu was fine. I
think Ubuntu needs UEFI mode to boot?

>If you like to boot with the UEFI mechanism, you need an EFI partition.
>It is a normal partition that can be accessed and cloned.
>The only relevant difference is that on UEFI systems a setting in the
>UEFI (saved on Motherboard) is required.
>This is why you can't just swap disks from one machine to another.
>Run grub-install/Windows boot repair to create that entry when you
>moved a disk.

I honestly don't care what I boot with, I just want a simple way of
imaging a drive and bing able to restore it to save all the activation
hassle associated with a clean install.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

Am 05.12.2022 um 10:37:55 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> As part of my learning process I set up a laptop for MBR and Legacy
> Only. I then installed Ubuntu-MATE and the install went well and it
> updated as it installed (that's a real boon). It then said remove the
> install media and press enter which I did. However, it could not
> boot. I entered the BIOS and set it to UEFI or Legacy and re-booted
> and Ubuntu was fine. I think Ubuntu needs UEFI mode to boot?

Ubuntu can perfectly boot on old BIOS systems. If hybrid boot is
enabled (BIOS and UEFI), the Ubuntu installer chooses the method it has
been booted.

> >If you like to boot with the UEFI mechanism, you need an EFI
> >partition. It is a normal partition that can be accessed and cloned.
> >The only relevant difference is that on UEFI systems a setting in the
> >UEFI (saved on Motherboard) is required.
> >This is why you can't just swap disks from one machine to another.
> >Run grub-install/Windows boot repair to create that entry when you
> >moved a disk.
>
> I honestly don't care what I boot with, I just want a simple way of
> imaging a drive and bing able to restore it to save all the
> activation hassle associated with a clean install.

On new computers, legacy (BIOS compatible) isn't available all the
time, so sometimes you must use UEFI to boot.