Blase or Incompetency - says Ponting.

======================================================================

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ricky-ponting-oval-test-ball-change-investigated-1390303

Ponting wants ball change during Australia second innings to be
'investigated'

Former Australia captain questions umpires after replacement ball comes
to life on fifth morning

Ricky Ponting believes the choice of replacement ball during Australia's
second innings in the fifth Ashes Test at The Oval was a "huge blunder"
which "needs to be investigated".

Umpires Joel Wilson and Kumar Dharmasena changed the ball after the
first delivery of the 37th over, deeming that it had gone out of shape
after Mark Wood hit Usman Khawaja on the helmet with a bouncer. Only 11
more balls were bowled on the second afternoon after the change of ball.

The replacement appeared to be significantly harder and newer than the
ball that had been used previously. England took three early wickets on
the fifth morning as Australia attempted to chase down 384 to clinch a
3-1 series win, with Chris Woakes dismissing Khawaja and David Warner,
and Wood having Marnus Labuschagne caught in the slips.

Ponting, the former Australia captain, suggested the umpires had either
been "blasé" in their approach to changing the ball, or had not been
given an appropriate replacement in the box of balls brought onto the
pitch by the fourth umpire, David Millns.

"The biggest concern I have is the big discrepancy in the condition of
the ball that was chosen to replace the one [that had gone out of
shape]," Ponting said on Sky Sports. "There's no way in the world you
can even look at those two balls there and say in any way are they
comparable.

"At the end of the day, if you are going to change the ball, you want to
make sure that you get it right, so [you make it] as close as you
possibly can to the one that you're changing it from. Now if you have a
look in that box, there weren't too many older-condition balls in there.
There were some older ones that were picked up, the umpires looked at
that and threw them back.

"I just cannot fathom how two international umpires that have done that
a lot of times before can get that so wrong. That is a huge moment in
this game, potentially a huge moment in the Test match, and something I
think actually has to be investigated: whether there was the right
condition of balls in the box, or the umpires have just, blasé, picked
one out of there that they think will be okay to use."

Sky showed ball-tracking data that suggested the ball had both seamed
and swung significantly more on the fifth morning than on the fourth
afternoon, prompting Ponting to call for an investigation.

"The conditions were perfect for bowling this morning, let's say that,"
Ponting said. "The conditions were better for bowling this morning. But
what I saw last night, that ball there, I'll put my hand up and say I've
got absolutely no doubt at all that that ball would not have done
anywhere near as much as what that one did this morning.

"Double the amount of movement this morning from yesterday afternoon,
seam movement and swing. I think it's a huge blunder that needs to be
investigated."

According to Law 4.5, if the umpires agree that the balls has become
"unfit for play through normal use", they should replace it "with a ball
which has had wear comparable with that which the previous ball had
received before the need for its replacement".

Marcus Trescothick, England's assistant coach, said on the second
evening that the new ball seemed "just a bit harder" than the old one.

"The boys could sense the ball was making a different sound off the
bat," he said. "Immediately, there's a bit more life in it. Balls seem
to have gone very soft, very fast in this game - and this series. Both
captains have tried to change them on numerous occasions."

Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".

An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
evaluated."

On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57 PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
> Blase or Incompetency - says Ponting.
>
> ======================================================================
>
> https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ricky-ponting-oval-test-ball-change-investigated-1390303
>
> Ponting wants ball change during Australia second innings to be
> 'investigated'
>
> Former Australia captain questions umpires after replacement ball comes
> to life on fifth morning
>
>
> Ricky Ponting believes the choice of replacement ball during Australia's
> second innings in the fifth Ashes Test at The Oval was a "huge blunder"
> which "needs to be investigated".
>
> Umpires Joel Wilson and Kumar Dharmasena changed the ball after the
> first delivery of the 37th over, deeming that it had gone out of shape
> after Mark Wood hit Usman Khawaja on the helmet with a bouncer. Only 11
> more balls were bowled on the second afternoon after the change of ball.
>
> The replacement appeared to be significantly harder and newer than the
> ball that had been used previously. England took three early wickets on
> the fifth morning as Australia attempted to chase down 384 to clinch a
> 3-1 series win, with Chris Woakes dismissing Khawaja and David Warner,
> and Wood having Marnus Labuschagne caught in the slips.
>
> Ponting, the former Australia captain, suggested the umpires had either
> been "blasé" in their approach to changing the ball, or had not been
> given an appropriate replacement in the box of balls brought onto the
> pitch by the fourth umpire, David Millns.
>
> "The biggest concern I have is the big discrepancy in the condition of
> the ball that was chosen to replace the one [that had gone out of
> shape]," Ponting said on Sky Sports. "There's no way in the world you
> can even look at those two balls there and say in any way are they
> comparable.
>
> "At the end of the day, if you are going to change the ball, you want to
> make sure that you get it right, so [you make it] as close as you
> possibly can to the one that you're changing it from. Now if you have a
> look in that box, there weren't too many older-condition balls in there.
> There were some older ones that were picked up, the umpires looked at
> that and threw them back.
>
> "I just cannot fathom how two international umpires that have done that
> a lot of times before can get that so wrong. That is a huge moment in
> this game, potentially a huge moment in the Test match, and something I
> think actually has to be investigated: whether there was the right
> condition of balls in the box, or the umpires have just, blasé, picked
> one out of there that they think will be okay to use."
>
> Sky showed ball-tracking data that suggested the ball had both seamed
> and swung significantly more on the fifth morning than on the fourth
> afternoon, prompting Ponting to call for an investigation.
>
> "The conditions were perfect for bowling this morning, let's say that,"
> Ponting said. "The conditions were better for bowling this morning. But
> what I saw last night, that ball there, I'll put my hand up and say I've
> got absolutely no doubt at all that that ball would not have done
> anywhere near as much as what that one did this morning.
>
> "Double the amount of movement this morning from yesterday afternoon,
> seam movement and swing. I think it's a huge blunder that needs to be
> investigated."
>
> According to Law 4.5, if the umpires agree that the balls has become
> "unfit for play through normal use", they should replace it "with a ball
> which has had wear comparable with that which the previous ball had
> received before the need for its replacement".
>
> Marcus Trescothick, England's assistant coach, said on the second
> evening that the new ball seemed "just a bit harder" than the old one.
>
> "The boys could sense the ball was making a different sound off the
> bat," he said. "Immediately, there's a bit more life in it. Balls seem
> to have gone very soft, very fast in this game - and this series. Both
> captains have tried to change them on numerous occasions."
>
> Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
> shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
>
> An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
> decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
> evaluated."

This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:05:20 AM UTC+10, Robert Henderson wrote:
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57 PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:

> > Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
> > shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
> >
> > An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
> > decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
> > evaluated."
> This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH

the pictures of the two balls show them in wildly different conditions.

On 7/31/2023 5:36 PM, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:05:20 AM UTC+10, Robert Henderson wrote:
>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57 PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
>
>>> Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
>>> shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
>>>
>>> An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
>>> decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
>>> evaluated."
>> This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH
>
> the pictures of the two balls show them in wildly different conditions.

If the fourth umpire picked the ball himself as reports suggests, then
the question is, did he do it "deliberately".

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 22:20:25 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
<FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:

>On 7/31/2023 5:36 PM, Hamish Laws wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:05:20?AM UTC+10, Robert Henderson wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57?PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
>>
>>>> Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
>>>> shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
>>>>
>>>> An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
>>>> decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
>>>> evaluated."
>>> This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH
>>
>> the pictures of the two balls show them in wildly different conditions.
>
>
>
>
>If the fourth umpire picked the ball himself as reports suggests, then
>the question is, did he do it "deliberately".

I'm pretty sure that only the two standing umpires decide which ball
will be used.

max.it

In message <uaa4mp$3j353$1@dont-email.me>, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
<FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> writes
>If the fourth umpire picked the ball himself as reports suggests, then
>the question is, did he do it "deliberately".

I think the reports suggesting that are wrong. The choice is supposed to
be made by the on-field umpires. I'm not sure, but I think they can ask
both sides if they are happy that the replacement ball is in similar
condition. I don't think they are obliged to do so, though, and I don't
know if they did on this occasion.

The only way the fourth umpire could influence things would be by
rigging the balls in the box (inconceivable) or by accidentally taking
out the wrong box (highly unlikely).
--
John Hall "[It was] so steep that at intervals the street broke into steps,
like a person breaking into giggles or hiccups, and then resumed
its sober climb, until it had another fit of steps."
Ursula K Le Guin "The Beginning Place"

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:39:14 PM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
> The only way the fourth umpire could influence things would be by
> rigging the balls in the box (inconceivable)

The news article re Usman I just linked to suggests that only 1 ball was brought out by the 3rd umpire.

In message <1c394805-33d5-4e83-8f27-e41fce0a9b62n@googlegroups.com>,
jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:39:140 >> The only way the fourth umpire could influence things would be by
>> rigging the balls in the box (inconceivable)
>
>The news article re Usman I just linked to suggests that only 1 ball
>was brought out by the 3rd umpire.

That's clearly wrong. Not only would the on-field umpires tell him to go
and fetch the box, but I'm pretty sure I actually saw on TV him bringing
out a box.
--
John Hall "[It was] so steep that at intervals the street broke into steps,
like a person breaking into giggles or hiccups, and then resumed
its sober climb, until it had another fit of steps."
Ursula K Le Guin "The Beginning Place"

In message <1c394805-33d5-4e83-8f27-e41fce0a9b62n@googlegroups.com>,
jack fredricks <jzfredricks@gmail.com> writes
>On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:39:14?PM UTC+10, John Hall wrote:
>> The only way the fourth umpire could influence things would be by
>> rigging the balls in the box (inconceivable)
>
>The news article re Usman I just linked to suggests that only 1 ball
>was brought out by the 3rd umpire.

I've just seen the article you linked to. It says:

'Australian opener Usman Khawaja has revealed he questioned umpires at
The Oval twice about the ball change that decided the fifth Ashes Test
and was told there was “nothing else” in the box of replacement
balls for them to choose.'

That doesn't suggest to me that he only brought out one ball, merely
that the on-field umpires felt that none of the other balls in the box
was suitable, for whatever reason. However that's clearly an
unsatisfactory state of affairs. I can't recall whether there were any
other ball replacements during the match. If so, I suppose all the other
balls that might have been suitable might have already been used.
--
John Hall "[It was] so steep that at intervals the street broke into steps,
like a person breaking into giggles or hiccups, and then resumed
its sober climb, until it had another fit of steps."
Ursula K Le Guin "The Beginning Place"

On Tuesday, 1 August 2023 at 11:05:12 UTC+1, John Hall wrote:

> 'Australian opener Usman Khawaja has revealed he questioned umpires at
> The Oval twice about the ball change that decided the fifth Ashes Test
> and was told there was “nothing else” in the box of replacement
> balls for them to choose.'

The Aus bleating about this is hilarious. Two aussie sports writers I listen to have highlighted how a ball change impacted the Edgbaston Test in 2019 when the shoe was on the other foot and Aus ran through England with a replacement ball of suspect age. Shit happens, move on - and stop whining.

Richard

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 1:36:11 AM UTC+1, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:05:20 AM UTC+10, Robert Henderson wrote:
> > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57 PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
>
> > > Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
> > > shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
> > >
> > > An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
> > > decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
> > > evaluated."
> > This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH
> the pictures of the two balls show them in wildly different conditions.

So what? While the umpires have to make a choice inevitably significant differences between balls will occur because guess what the umpires have to choose from the used balls available. RH

On 7/31/2023 11:51 PM, max.it wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 22:20:25 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/31/2023 5:36 PM, Hamish Laws wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:05:20?AM UTC+10, Robert Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 5:23:57?PM UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Glenn Maxwell, who is part of Australia's limited-overs set-up, tweeted
>>>>> shortly after the first wicket to fall: "Beware the 2nd newy #ashes".
>>>>>
>>>>> An ICC spokesperson told ESPNcricinfo: "We do not comment on on-field
>>>>> decisions. As you would expect, umpiring performance is continually
>>>>> evaluated."
>>>> This is simply a consequence of used balls being replacements . It will by definition not be an exact science when the balls are changed. RH
>>>
>>> the pictures of the two balls show them in wildly different conditions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If the fourth umpire picked the ball himself as reports suggests, then
>> the question is, did he do it "deliberately".
>
>
> I'm pretty sure that only the two standing umpires decide which ball
> will be used.
>
> max.it

Okay, I might have misread somewhere that 4th umpire picked the ball.

On 8/1/2023 2:30 AM, John Hall wrote:
> In message <uaa4mp$3j353$1@dont-email.me>, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> writes
>> If the fourth umpire picked the ball himself as reports suggests, then
>> the question is, did he do it "deliberately".
>
> I think the reports suggesting that are wrong. The choice is supposed to
> be made by the on-field umpires. I'm not sure, but I think they can ask
> both sides if they are happy that the replacement ball is in similar
> condition. I don't think they are obliged to do so, though, and I don't
> know if they did on this occasion.

IF they did, then Ponting, Khawaja and Aus team will have NO reason to
complain.

So I assume the umpires didn't ask the sides.

>
> The only way the fourth umpire could influence things would be by
> rigging the balls in the box (inconceivable) or by accidentally taking
> out the wrong box (highly unlikely).