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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

SubjectAuthor
* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?muttley
`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
 `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
  +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
  |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
  | +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
  | |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
  | | `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?muttley
  | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?muttley
  |  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
  |   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
  |    `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
  |     +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
  |     `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
  |      `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
  |       +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
  |       `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
  |        `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
   +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Christopher A. Lee
   |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
   ||+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
   |||+- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Arthur Figgis
   |||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Peter Johnson
   ||| `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
   |||  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
   |||   `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
   ||`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Christopher A. Lee
   |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Peter Johnson
   | `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Rolf Mantel
   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
    `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Certes
     |+- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
     ||+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     |||+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
     ||||`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
     |||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Bevan Price
     ||| +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?muttley
     ||| |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| ||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Peter Johnson
     ||| || +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Rolf Mantel
     ||| || |  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Rolf Mantel
     ||| || |    `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
     ||| || |     |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     ||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     || +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
     ||| || |     || |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Certes
     ||| || |     || ||+- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |     || ||`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
     ||| || |     || |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
     ||| || |     || | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |     || |  +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
     ||| || |     || |  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| || |     || |   +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     || |   +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
     ||| || |     || |   |`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
     ||| || |     || |   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |     || |    +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| || |     || |    `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
     ||| || |     || +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     || |+- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     || |`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     || `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |     ||  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     ||   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| || |     ||    `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     ||     `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     |`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Marland
     ||| || |     +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott
     ||| || |     | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     |   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| || |     |    +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
     ||| || |     |    |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    ||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?nib
     ||| || |     |    || +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     |    || |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     |    || |  `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |   `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     |    || |    +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     |    || |    |+* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?martin.coffee
     ||| || |     |    || |    ||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Certes
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Certes
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Certes
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | |`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | | `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Tweed
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | |  `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  | `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?nib
     ||| || |     |    || |    || |  `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |    || `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     |    || |    |+- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || |    |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     |    || |    `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| || |     |    || `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
     ||| || |     |    |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| || |     |    +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Muttley
     ||| || |     |    `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || |     `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| || +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Graeme Wall
     ||| || `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Recliner
     ||| |`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roland Perry
     ||| +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
     ||| +- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Anna Noyd-Dryver
     ||| `* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Charles Ellson
     ||`* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Arthur Figgis
     |`- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Roger Lynn
     +* When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Sam Wilson
     `- When does a railway have to be seperated from people?Scott

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Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

<Y76dnezV0vogK8j_nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Newsgroups: uk.railway
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:28 UTC

On 12/04/2022 11:15, Marland wrote:

> Any one know what set up the The Conwy Mussel Fishery (Jetty Hoist) Light
> Railway Order
> referred to?

Presumably connected to http://www.conwymussels.com

Can't spot anything on Google Maps, and NLS doesn't seem too have much
useful. There appears to be a mussel museum.

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

<Y76dne_V0vquKsj_nZ2dnUU7-TGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Newsgroups: uk.railway
References: <t31hno$1vd0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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<9jpa5hpkfmmc0n5aofc9ufidhs7rvmpfre@4ax.com>
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 by: Arthur Figgis - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:30 UTC

On 12/04/2022 12:47, Scott wrote:

> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?

The legal powers granted for building each individual tramway?

--
Arthur Figgis

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

<jblrhrFo7kkU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: 12 Apr 2022 17:34:51 GMT
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 by: Marland - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:34 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to
>>>> walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>> tracks?".
>>>
>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.
>>
>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>
> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and
> they usually run faster on such sections. But
> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>

Thats now though, many of our towns and cities got their first on street
systems in the same era as railways built under the 1896 light railway act.
That was introduced as though government wanted simpler legislation to
encourage cheaper railway access to areas that did not offer much traffic
they did want some standards followed which were above those of
tramways,the Wisbech and Upwell had recently been opened as a Tramway under
tramway rules and there was a concern that a precedent may have been set
using those when something more regulated was required.

The modern tramways we have now with some using former railway formations
are as you say a lot faster than even the segregated sections that some
first generation tramways constructed out to new suburbs. Perhaps the
Croydon accident is a wake up call that perhaps building an electric
railway and operating it on the cheap as a tram needs to be considered a
bit more carefully.

GH

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

<t34dlg$89a$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:42:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:42 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:24:22 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t3258p$4t6$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:06:33 on Mon, 11 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>I thought 'light railways' (like preserved railways) were limited to 25mph,
>>whereas trams go up to 50mph (or more?). Yet tram stops, even in
>>segregated sections, allow passengers to freely walk across the tracks,
>>with no fences or barriers.
>
>Trams have many safety features to deflect pedestrians rather than crush

I wouldn't want to put them to the test.

>them, and when street-running ding their bell frequently.
>
>Wasn't the OP really asking about *miniature* railways like the one at
>Longleat?

No. I was asking about where the dividing line is between railways where
people can meander along and across and ones where there is strict segregation.

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:44:15 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:44 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:51:46 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t33dvg$3cg$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:41:20 on Tue, 12 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Trams have many safety features to deflect pedestrians rather than crush
>>> them, and when street-running ding their bell frequently.
>>>
>>> Wasn't the OP really asking about *miniature* railways like the one at
>>> Longleat?
>>
>>Well, Neil asked: "Is it running speed, size of rolling stock, braking
>>ability, or something else? Given 60 tons trams and people mix on streets
>>I'm guessing its something to do with speed and braking but anyone know
>>specifically?"
>
>And: "Having ridden on a park type railway today where walkers could
>just wander along the track at will, it made me wonder what the criteria
>is for physical seperation of the PW."

That was the exposition. The 2nd paragraph was more to the point.

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From: bevanpri...@gmail.com (Bevan Price)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100
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 by: Bevan Price - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:48 UTC

On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>> tracks?".
>>>
>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.
>>
>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>
> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.

On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.

That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:59:51 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:59 UTC

On 12/04/2022 12:49, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:30:24 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>
>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk
>>> across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>> tracks?".
>>>
>>
>> It’s probably slightly more complex than that. This place has a train:
>>
>> <http://www.eastlinks.co.uk/>
>> <https://goo.gl/maps/hHmicsUZTCL9a2rj6>
>>
>> but the track is completely segregated and fenced except for two (or
>> three?) places, either side of the single station, where footways cross the
>> track. There is no protection for pedestrians except for the train
>> announcing its presence, but there are partial fences and no entry signs
>> for pedestrians at the crossings.
>>
>> So this is probably a light railway - it’s certainly not a tram - but
>> pedestrians are allowed to walk across the tracks at certain, well
>> specified points, with no gates and no warning other than the train’s
>> whistle.
>>
> Are there any national rail stations where passengers can cross the
> tracks? I certainly remember this from the past.

There are some where the only connection from one platform to another is
via a level crossing. At others, passengers who couldn't manage the
stairs would be escorted across the barrow crossing by a member of staff
but that vanished a while go, along with the barrows, crossings and
members of staff.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
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 by: mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:24 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100
Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>wrote:
>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and
>they usually run faster on such sections. But
>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>
>
>On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>
>That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.

For the (current) price of the waste of money called HS2, Manchester, Brum,
Leeds and [pick a couple more cities] could have built proper underground
systems built, not just cut price trams (except for leeds which got nothing
and AFAIK is the largest connurbation in europe without a local rail PT
system of any sort).

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:50 UTC

On 12/04/2022 19:24, muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and
>> they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>
>>
>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>
>> That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>> centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>
> For the (current) price of the waste of money called HS2, Manchester, Brum,
> Leeds and [pick a couple more cities] could have built proper underground
> systems built, not just cut price trams (except for leeds which got nothing
> and AFAIK is the largest connurbation in europe without a local rail PT
> system of any sort).
>

Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: use...@rilynn.me.uk (Roger Lynn)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:54:23 +0100
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 by: Roger Lynn - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54 UTC

On 12/04/2022 12:18, Certes wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>> tracks?".
>
> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.

And on 12/04/2022 18:42, muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> I was asking about where the dividing line is between railways where people
> can meander along and across and ones where there is strict segregation.

As an example, the Ffestiniog is generally fenced, with strict segregation,
but has one mile which is completely unfenced and is shared with a public
footpath. It does have very good visibility, weather and light permitting.

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:47 UTC

On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott
>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to
>>>>> walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>
>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings).  Light railways
>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy
>>>> rail.
>>>
>>> This is a circular argument.  Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>> run on roads.  But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>> road?  The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>
>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads,
>> and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>
>
> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>

Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.

That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 00:22:38 +0100
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 by: Certes - Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:22 UTC

On 12/04/2022 22:47, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed
>>>>>> to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>
>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to
>>>>> walk
>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings).  Light
>>>>> railways
>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy
>>>>> rail.
>>>>
>>>> This is a circular argument.  Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>> run on roads.  But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>> road?  The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>
>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads,
>>> and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>
>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>
> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>
> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.

That's the case in Edinburgh. For examples, see
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
running signalling>

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:08:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:08 UTC

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 22:47, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed
>>>>>>> to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to
>>>>>> walk
>>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings).  Light
>>>>>> railways
>>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy
>>>>>> rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a circular argument.  Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>>> run on roads.  But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>>> road?  The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>>
>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads,
>>>> and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>
>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>
>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>
>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>
> That's the case in Edinburgh. For examples, see
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
> running signalling>
>

Yes, I think that's true of all UK trams.

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:30:20 +0100
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:30 UTC

On 13/04/2022 00:22, Certes wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 22:47, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed
>>>>>>> to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to
>>>>>> walk
>>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings).  Light
>>>>>> railways
>>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy
>>>>>> rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a circular argument.  Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>>> run on roads.  But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>>> road?  The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>>
>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than
>>>> roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>
>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally
>>> applicable road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights,
>>> etc.
>>
>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to
>> their own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road
>> regulations.
>>
>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>
> That's the case in Edinburgh.  For examples, see
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
> running signalling>

Where is there a website that contains information on signals and signal
signs on UK tram networks, BTW?

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: gemeha...@btinternet.co.uk (Marland)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: 13 Apr 2022 08:03:08 GMT
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 by: Marland - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:03 UTC

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>
>>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than
>>>>> roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>>
>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally
>>>> applicable road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights,
>>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to
>>> their own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road
>>> regulations.

Arn’t they part of the road regulations that just happen to be a separate
category?

>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>
>> That's the case in Edinburgh.  For examples, see
>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
>> running signalling>
>
> Where is there a website that contains information on signals and signal
> signs on UK tram networks, BTW?
>
>

Are there many more than those that can be found in the highway code or its
relation “know your traffic signs?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf

They are put there as other road users are expected to know how to interact
with other traffic
even though a particular signal may not apply to them.

Though it would probably be a safe bet that most drivers middle aged and
over probably have not read an edition more up to date than the one
current when they passed there test, and therefore unaware that tram only
traffic signals exist let alone what they look like and figures on a
diamond shaped plate are tram speed restrictions. In the handful of places
where we do have trams drivers who see them regularly will have learned
about the white signals by observation but the vast majority
of drivers in the UK will never have seen a tram in the “flesh”.

I was watching a news report on a pub telly while waiting for the rugby
awhile back which showed a street in Manchester with trams, a couple of
people remarked that they didn’t know we had trams in this country.

GH

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: newsgro...@gefion.myzen.co.uk (Scott)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:33:37 +0100
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 by: Scott - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:33 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:30:27 +0100, Arthur Figgis
<afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/04/2022 12:47, Scott wrote:
>
>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>
>The legal powers granted for building each individual tramway?

I don't think that was point of the question, but now that OP has
joined us I shall leave him to comment.

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: 13 Apr 2022 10:05:12 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:05 UTC

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 12:47, Scott wrote:
>
> > This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
> > run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
> > road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>
> The legal powers granted for building each individual tramway?

I think that's the thing here. There is no 'Tramways Act' that authorises
modern on-street tramways: each system has its own legislation that provides
for its own powers. For example I looked at Nottingham and we have:

Greater Nottingham Light Rapid Transit Act 1994
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1994/15/enacted

The Nottingham Express Transit System Order 2009
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/1300/made

It is notable that the second does not refer to any 'railway' legislation.
The first refers to various railway legislation but seems mostly concerned
with construction (which shares alignments etc with existing heavy rail)
rather than operations.

Each system requires a Transport and Works Act Order (the second above being
Nottingham's, for the extension I presume) and that TWA application grants
powers on a case-by-case basis. So I suspect anyone looking for modern
general purpose legislation won't find any, because it doesn't exist.

If you want something general, you have to go back to the Transport and
Works Act 1992 that sets out the general framework for applying to build new
systems, as opposed to the prior 19th century Private Bill route:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_and_Works_Act_1992

Theo

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:18:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:18 UTC

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>
> That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
> centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>

It would be significantly less so if they had proper traffic light
priority.

And if the Pomona - Salford Quays section didn't have to meander around
buildings which should have been planned to include the possibility of a
future tramway.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:18:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:18 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 12/04/2022 12:49, Scott wrote:
>
>> Are there any national rail stations where passengers can cross the
>> tracks? I certainly remember this from the past.
>
> There are some where the only connection from one platform to another is
> via a level crossing. At others, passengers who couldn't manage the
> stairs would be escorted across the barrow crossing by a member of staff
> but that vanished a while go, along with the barrows, crossings and
> members of staff.
>

Still exist in certain places!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:43 UTC

Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:

>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>
>
> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>
> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.

Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").

Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
from the main lane).

There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
middle of the road.

Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.

Rolf

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From: pet...@parksidewood.nospam (Peter Johnson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:46:47 +0100
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 by: Peter Johnson - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:46 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?

I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
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 by: Peter Johnson - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:48 UTC

On 12 Apr 2022 10:15:03 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> Any one know what set up the The Conwy Mussel Fishery (Jetty Hoist) Light
>Railway Order
>referred to?
>
Here you are:
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJpxYKzLNdSRx-JqLg?e=Dz44vi
Pretty sure it wasn't built.

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From: is.guy.g...@at.btinternet.com (Guy Gorton)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:02:45 +0100
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 by: Guy Gorton - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:02 UTC

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:28:09 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <copa5h558kr2kcrp5onqtc2gb4nh6ei649@4ax.com>, at 12:49:05 on
>Tue, 12 Apr 2022, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:30:24 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk
>>>> across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>> tracks?".
>>>
>>>It’s probably slightly more complex than that. This place has a train:
>>>
>>><http://www.eastlinks.co.uk/>
>>><https://goo.gl/maps/hHmicsUZTCL9a2rj6>
>>>
>>>but the track is completely segregated and fenced except for two (or
>>>three?) places, either side of the single station, where footways cross the
>>>track. There is no protection for pedestrians except for the train
>>>announcing its presence, but there are partial fences and no entry signs
>>>for pedestrians at the crossings.
>>>
>>>So this is probably a light railway - it’s certainly not a tram - but
>>>pedestrians are allowed to walk across the tracks at certain, well
>>>specified points, with no gates and no warning other than the train’s
>>>whistle.
>>>
>>Are there any national rail stations where passengers can cross the
>>tracks? I certainly remember this from the past.
>
>Yes, barrow crossings are fairly common.
>
>At Littleport it was the only way to reach the Up platform, until they
>rebuilt the station a year ago.
>
>It's probably still the only way to get to the eastbound platform at
>Bottesford.
>
>I don't know if they've closed the barrow crossing at Grantham, but
>before they added lifts to the overbridge, it was the only way that pax
>in wheelchairs could cross the ECML to/from the island (down) platform.

I have a photo somewhere of a wheelchair being wheeled across a barrow
crossing at Hereford station - 4 tracks, I think.

Guy Gorton

Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?

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From: pet...@parksidewood.nospam (Peter Johnson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:21:03 +0100
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 by: Peter Johnson - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:21 UTC

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 17:01:56 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:

>In BR days, preserved lines were reopened under a light railways
>order, and restricted to 25 mph.

Heritage railway speeds generally are those agreed with the inspecting
officer before opening. Only in one of the original Dart Valley orders
is the speed mentioned. It isn't mentioned in the 1896 Light Railways
Act either. The 25mph comes from the 1868 Regulation of Railways Act,
Section V of which provides for the licencing of railways as light
railways by the Board of Trade and Article 28, which is incorporated
in the 1896 Act, specifies the conditions to be met including a
maximum speed of 25mph.
(The preserved Great Central, incidentally, is allowed to run at 40mph
provided certain conditions are met, including that the railway is
closed to the public. This is for the purpose of testing trains for
manufacturers &c. There is no provision for it in its LRO.)

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: When does a railway have to be seperated from people?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:19:16 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:19 UTC

Am 13.04.2022 um 13:21 schrieb Peter Johnson:
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 17:01:56 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>
>> In BR days, preserved lines were reopened under a light railways
>> order, and restricted to 25 mph.
>
> Heritage railway speeds generally are those agreed with the inspecting
> officer before opening. Only in one of the original Dart Valley orders
> is the speed mentioned. It isn't mentioned in the 1896 Light Railways
> Act either. The 25mph comes from the 1868 Regulation of Railways Act,
> Section V of which provides for the licencing of railways as light
> railways by the Board of Trade and Article 28, which is incorporated
> in the 1896 Act, specifies the conditions to be met including a
> maximum speed of 25mph.
> (The preserved Great Central, incidentally, is allowed to run at 40mph
> provided certain conditions are met, including that the railway is
> closed to the public. This is for the purpose of testing trains for
> manufacturers &c. There is no provision for it in its LRO.)

In Germany, we have different regulations:

1) trams (and many underground railways) run according to BOStrab ("Tram
operation rules")
<https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/strabbo_1987/index.html>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verordnung_%C3%BCber_den_Bau_und_Betrieb_der_Stra%C3%9Fenbahnen>

2) Normal railways run according to EBO ("Railway operation rules")
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahn-Bau-_und_Betriebsordnung>
<http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bundesrecht/ebo/gesamt.pdf>

EBO specifies a max speed of 40 km/h (25 mph) for running on sight.

EBO often requires "state-of-the-art" safety requirements.

"Full rail" lines are supervised by the Einsanbahnbundesamt
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahn-Bundesamt>
while local lines can be supervised by regional supervisors (this would
be vageuly similar to "light rail" in UK).

The "state of the art" definition for regional supervisors has lower
requirements than for full rail even when the regional rail supervision
is actually executed by EBA.

Rolf

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