Hi and first post here. ;-)

Not completely homebuilt in this case (for a change ... I've been
building PC's since my first XT <g>) but I'm trying to get a couple of
s/h Shuttle mini PCs up and running that were supposedly working ok and
have had some issues and wondered if it could be a video output thing?

https://global.shuttle.com/products/productsSpec?productId=2091

Skylake celeron atm.

It was running W7 ok, did a load of updates just to give it something to
do and all was well but when trying to reinstall W7 afresh (to then
upgrade to W10) on an SSD I was having issues with my boot medium (DVD)
and UEFI / Legacy / Secure boot and when power cycling it last there was
suddenly no output on the HDMI connector?

I swapped HDMI leads, tried a different monitor and tested both monitors
and leads on another PC (all ok) so even went back to the original 4G of
RAM and removed the SSD and even disconnected the CMOS battery for a bit
but still nothing? ;-(

I then tried the other of the same PC's, this one seemed to indicate it
was doing something from the HDD LED (eg, booting W7) but again no
output on the HDMI connector?

So I was wondering if they could have swapped the output to the
DisplayPort and hence why I can't see anything (and I mean anything, no
BIOS splash screen, nothing (no speaker either so no POST beep etc).
When I was in the BIOS (and have upgraded that from 2.03 to 2.09
(latest) etc) I didn't spot any sign of setting a default video output.

Now I've never come across DisplayPort before but I was thinking of
giving one of these boxes to our daughter and she was taking about
running two displays (OU work) so I would probably need an adaptor or
lead of some sort anyway but I see mention of passive and active
solutions and would like some guidance as to what's what please?

From a physical POV, a short DisplayPort to HDMI female sounds the most
flexible but an all-in-one lead would also work.

Thanks for your time, I wanted to give the complete picture in case
anyone had experienced similar and know it's not an issue with the video
etc.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:

> So I was wondering if they could have swapped the output to the DisplayPort and
> hence why I can't see anything

For it to use the DP connector, it should need to see a DP monitor connected,
same as for it to see/use the HDMI connector.

> Now I've never come across DisplayPort before but I was thinking of giving one
> of these boxes to our daughter and she was taking about running two displays (OU
> work) so I would probably need an adaptor or lead of some sort anyway but I see
> mention of passive and active solutions and would like some guidance as to
> what's what please?

You can get dongles to convert DP->HDMI, you might need to be careful of what
spec level of DP and HDMI, for HD probably not an issue, but for 4K it can be.

> From a physical POV, a short DisplayPort to HDMI female sounds the most
> flexible but an all-in-one lead would also work.

you can also daisy chain some DP monitors, again check what is supported.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> You can get dongles to convert DP->HDMI, you might need to be careful of what
> spec level of DP and HDMI, for HD probably not an issue, but for 4K it can be.

HDMI and Displayport are different protocols, kinda a bit like speaking
English and French.

AIUI some Displayport outputs are bilingual and can speak HDMI, and so a
passive dongle or cable is just to tell the port to switch to HDMI mode.
However other DPs can't speak HDMI, and that's when you need an active
translator.

In particular, USB-C only supports DP natively, so if you want HDMI you need
a dongle with a USB-C plug configured to tell the laptop to emit DP and then
a DP to HDMI converter chip.

Theo

On 30/11/2022 20:58, Theo wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> You can get dongles to convert DP->HDMI, you might need to be careful of what
>> spec level of DP and HDMI, for HD probably not an issue, but for 4K it can be.
>
> HDMI and Displayport are different protocols, kinda a bit like speaking
> English and French.
>
> AIUI some Displayport outputs are bilingual and can speak HDMI, and so a
> passive dongle or cable is just to tell the port to switch to HDMI mode.
> However other DPs can't speak HDMI, and that's when you need an active
> translator.

Ok, that makes sense. So from the overview:

"HDMI x1 + DisplayPort x1 Support dual display
4K playback (Dual channel memory recommanded)"

I'm guessing that doesn't tell us enough about the capabilities of that
particular DP?
>
> In particular, USB-C only supports DP natively, so if you want HDMI you need
> a dongle with a USB-C plug configured to tell the laptop to emit DP and then
> a DP to HDMI converter chip.

Similar to my active HDMI > VGA dongles.

I don't have a monitor with DP (that I know of) so I can't test the port
'natively' (always a good first step).

From what has been said so far and after finding noting of use in what
they offer as a manual I did find on their site:

"DH110SE HDMI V1.4b and DP V 1.2" (In case that says anything) and ...

"The DisplayPort output can be converted to HDMI or DVI by an
additional, passive adapter cable. For example:

DELOCK 82590: 1 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to HDMI-A (male, 19p)
DELOCK 82435: 5 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to DVI-D (male, 24p)"

So the good news is it suggests a 'passive' solution.

"The integrated graphics automatically detects the connected display and
puts out the appropriate electric signal - either through DisplayPort
(without an adapter) or HDMI/DVI (with an adapter).

I'm not sure I follow that bit? Ok, we probably know both ports would
output the right stuff to native matching monitors and that we could
probably use an adaptor in either to convert to a range of others and
would need an 'active' adaptor where the sense and output support aren't
available?

"However, a monitor with a DisplayPort connector cannot be connected to
the HDMI port with a simple, passive adapter."

Ok, so it's covering at least one combo that can't be passive but is
that suggesting that all overs (minus VGA probably) can be done passive?

Cheers, T i m

T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> Ok, that makes sense. So from the overview:
>
> "HDMI x1 + DisplayPort x1 Support dual display
> 4K playback (Dual channel memory recommanded)"
>
> I'm guessing that doesn't tell us enough about the capabilities of that
> particular DP?

Not here, it's just saying the connector shapes.
A DP output can of course always do DP, so it tells us that.

> From what has been said so far and after finding noting of use in what
> they offer as a manual I did find on their site:
>
> "DH110SE HDMI V1.4b and DP V 1.2" (In case that says anything) and ...

Those are relatively old/lower end standards (~2014). You might have
troubles with 4K, although it can probably be done with some
limitations/tweaking.

> "The DisplayPort output can be converted to HDMI or DVI by an
> additional, passive adapter cable. For example:
>
> DELOCK 82590: 1 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to HDMI-A (male, 19p)
> DELOCK 82435: 5 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to DVI-D (male, 24p)"
>
> So the good news is it suggests a 'passive' solution.

Yes.

> "The integrated graphics automatically detects the connected display and
> puts out the appropriate electric signal - either through DisplayPort
> (without an adapter) or HDMI/DVI (with an adapter).
>
> I'm not sure I follow that bit? Ok, we probably know both ports would
> output the right stuff to native matching monitors and that we could
> probably use an adaptor in either to convert to a range of others and
> would need an 'active' adaptor where the sense and output support aren't
> available?

I think that bit is just saying that the port can do DP, HDMI and DVI and an
appropriate cable or passive adapter will switch it into the right mode.

> "However, a monitor with a DisplayPort connector cannot be connected to
> the HDMI port with a simple, passive adapter."
>
> Ok, so it's covering at least one combo that can't be passive but is
> that suggesting that all overs (minus VGA probably) can be done passive?

DP can sometimes output HDMI, but HDMI can never output DP. So, as your
thing has 1x DP and 1x HDMI sockets, you could use two HDMI monitors but not
two DP monitors. If you wanted to have two DP monitors you'd need an active
converter from HDMI to DP.

(The situation with DVI is similar: DVI ports can't output HDMI signals, but
some HDMI ports can switch into a mode compatible with DVI. So if a DP
output can do HDMI, it may also do that in a way that's suitable for DVI
with a passive cable)

Theo

On 01/12/2022 11:33, Theo wrote:

<snip>

> T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> Ok, that makes sense. So from the overview:
>>
>> "HDMI x1 + DisplayPort x1 Support dual display
>> 4K playback (Dual channel memory recommanded)"
>>
>> I'm guessing that doesn't tell us enough about the capabilities of that
>> particular DP?
>
> Not here, it's just saying the connector shapes.
> A DP output can of course always do DP, so it tells us that.

Check. ;-)
>
>> From what has been said so far and after finding noting of use in what
>> they offer as a manual I did find on their site:
>>
>> "DH110SE HDMI V1.4b and DP V 1.2" (In case that says anything) and ...
>
> Those are relatively old/lower end standards (~2014). You might have
> troubles with 4K, although it can probably be done with some
> limitations/tweaking.

I don't knowingly have any screen up to that and I know my 'TV's' are
1080p at best so that shouldn't be an issue. ;-)
>
>> "The DisplayPort output can be converted to HDMI or DVI by an
>> additional, passive adapter cable. For example:
>>
>> DELOCK 82590: 1 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to HDMI-A (male, 19p)
>> DELOCK 82435: 5 m, DisplayPort (male, 20p) to DVI-D (male, 24p)"
>>
>> So the good news is it suggests a 'passive' solution.
>
> Yes.

Good.
>
>> "The integrated graphics automatically detects the connected display and
>> puts out the appropriate electric signal - either through DisplayPort
>> (without an adapter) or HDMI/DVI (with an adapter).
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow that bit? Ok, we probably know both ports would
>> output the right stuff to native matching monitors and that we could
>> probably use an adaptor in either to convert to a range of others and
>> would need an 'active' adaptor where the sense and output support aren't
>> available?
>
> I think that bit is just saying that the port can do DP, HDMI and DVI and an
> appropriate cable or passive adapter will switch it into the right mode.

Check. All of these being 'digital and that particular DP has the
ability to output (host > device) to those standards with the right
hardware.
>
>> "However, a monitor with a DisplayPort connector cannot be connected to
>> the HDMI port with a simple, passive adapter."
>>
>> Ok, so it's covering at least one combo that can't be passive but is
>> that suggesting that all overs (minus VGA probably) can be done passive?
>
> DP can sometimes output HDMI, but HDMI can never output DP.

Ok ..

> So, as your
> thing has 1x DP and 1x HDMI sockets, you could use two HDMI monitors but not
> two DP monitors. If you wanted to have two DP monitors you'd need an active
> converter from HDMI to DP.

Quite.
>
> (The situation with DVI is similar: DVI ports can't output HDMI signals, but
> some HDMI ports can switch into a mode compatible with DVI.

I have a PC (an i7 mini tower used as a TV box that might be replaced by
one of these Shuttle PC's) where I have used 'a cable' from the DVI out
port on the PC graphics card to the HDMI in socket on my Panasonic TV
.... and that 'works' because (either) it's an 'active lead' or the TV is
willing to take DVI over HDMI over a 'passive lead'?

> So if a DP
> output can do HDMI, it may also do that in a way that's suitable for DVI
> with a passive cable)

Understood.

I was the person people would often turn to when trying to hook things
like this up but it's been a while since I was on the cutting edge and
now generally only stumble into these things as / when they turn up.

This also used to happen when I used to chill in the local PC shop (a
mate owned it and we built the 3D printer in there) where he would often
turn to me for such 'can we' questions. ;-)

I've ordered a couple of DP > HDMA F adaptors off Amazon for delivery
today and I have two HDMA monitors (TV's in this case) within reach of
two HDMA cables and the Shuttle so hope to see how it all goes later. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> I have a PC (an i7 mini tower used as a TV box that might be replaced by
> one of these Shuttle PC's) where I have used 'a cable' from the DVI out
> port on the PC graphics card to the HDMI in socket on my Panasonic TV
> ... and that 'works' because (either) it's an 'active lead' or the TV is
> willing to take DVI over HDMI over a 'passive lead'?

Yes, I think so. Likely the TV sees the DVI signal and knows what to do
with it. I doubt there is any conversion going on.

> I've ordered a couple of DP > HDMA F adaptors off Amazon for delivery
> today and I have two HDMA monitors (TV's in this case) within reach of
> two HDMA cables and the Shuttle so hope to see how it all goes later. ;-)

I think that should probably work.

Theo

On 01/12/2022 14:58, Theo wrote:
> T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> I have a PC (an i7 mini tower used as a TV box that might be replaced by
>> one of these Shuttle PC's) where I have used 'a cable' from the DVI out
>> port on the PC graphics card to the HDMI in socket on my Panasonic TV
>> ... and that 'works' because (either) it's an 'active lead' or the TV is
>> willing to take DVI over HDMI over a 'passive lead'?
>
> Yes, I think so. Likely the TV sees the DVI signal and knows what to do
> with it. I doubt there is any conversion going on.

Check.
>
>> I've ordered a couple of DP > HDMA F adaptors off Amazon for delivery
>> today and I have two HDMA monitors (TV's in this case) within reach of
>> two HDMA cables and the Shuttle so hope to see how it all goes later. ;-)
>
> I think that should probably work.
>

Loads of people on Amazon have bought them (~50k) so I'm fairly hopeful
that it is (or can be) a fairly 'everyday' solution. ;-)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Displayport-Adapter-Benfei-Display-Converter-Black/dp/B017Q8ZVWK/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1

Cheers, T i m

Theo wrote:

> T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> "DH110SE HDMI V1.4b and DP V 1.2" (In case that says anything) and ...
>
> Those are relatively old/lower end standards (~2014). You might have
> troubles with 4K, although it can probably be done with some
> limitations/tweaking.

I ran into problems with Dell in a docking station, it would happily drive a 3K
monitor on DVI or DP, but not a 4K monitor, the dock didn't have HDMI ports, but
the laptop itself did, even that would only support 30fps not 60fps, so I had to
live with plugging in the screen as well as docking for lan + power + usb

the dell has now gone, and its replacemet has thunderbol4/usb4 ports, so the
screen can connect direct to the laptop on type-C usb, with the screen supplying
power as well as receiving 4K video.

The slight wrinkle with that, is the screen only supplies 65W of power and the
laptop moans if it receives less than 100W, so a thunderbolt dock sits between
screen and laptop ... quite remarkable what a single cable can do really, 40Gbps
of data with 100W of power, more 10 Gbps USB ports than you can shake a stick
at, 2.5Gbps ethernet and 4K video (times two if you want).

On 01/12/2022 14:58, Theo wrote:
> T i m <individual@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> I have a PC (an i7 mini tower used as a TV box that might be replaced by
>> one of these Shuttle PC's) where I have used 'a cable' from the DVI out
>> port on the PC graphics card to the HDMI in socket on my Panasonic TV
>> ... and that 'works' because (either) it's an 'active lead' or the TV is
>> willing to take DVI over HDMI over a 'passive lead'?
>
> Yes, I think so. Likely the TV sees the DVI signal and knows what to do
> with it. I doubt there is any conversion going on.
>
>> I've ordered a couple of DP > HDMA F adaptors off Amazon for delivery
>> today and I have two HDMA monitors (TV's in this case) within reach of
>> two HDMA cables and the Shuttle so hope to see how it all goes later. ;-)
>
> I think that should probably work.
>
I managed to get a few moments on the mini PC last night and it all did
'just work' with the adaptor so that was really good.

I've never really used dual screens in earnest (but set a few up for
others) so tried as a sort of a test for the hardware running two
different Youtube videos on two different screens and whilst that
worked, the sound got a bit mixed up. It seemed it was easy to point the
sound to either screen but not both simultaneously (I didn't try for
that long mind)?

I took the RAM from 4 (SC) to 8G (DC) and upgraded one (S-1151) CPU
while I was there from a Skylake Celeron to a straight (not Celeron)
Kaby Lake jobby but that doesn't support W11 either but for different
reasons I think? I'm not sure if that's much of a loss though?

I was mostly interested to see what the idle power was of the system
between both CPS and they were both nearly identical at about 9.5W but
might pick up a s/h i3/5 and see how that goes (daughter would like a
low energy / compact dual monitor system for doing her OU degree but
also have the odd play on The SIMS as a bit of R&R in-between). ;-)

Cheers, T i m