Broad DOES have a point about these over rate penalties having way too
much effect on WTC TEST POINTS.

ICC IDIOTS should really take a SERIOUS LOOK at this issue.

=====================================================================

https://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/it-diminishes-the-relevance-of-world-test-championship-stuart-broad-calls-iccs-over-rate-penalty-system-wrong-8881615/

‘It diminishes the relevance of World Test Championship’: Stuart Broad
calls ICC’s over-rate penalty system wrong

England has lost 19 WTC points for over-rate transgressions at
Edgbaston, Lord’s and The Oval.

Former England seamer Stuart Broad has lashed out at the ICC for docking
England’s 19 World Test Championship (WTC) points for the slow
over-rates over the course of the five-Test Ashes series, which ended
2-2. Australia were docked 10 points.

England were found to have been behind the ask in four of the five
Tests: by two overs in the first Test at Edgbaston, nine in the second
at Lord’s, three in the fourth at Old Trafford, and five in the last
Test at The Oval.

“It diminishes the relevance of the World Test Championship, to be
honest,” Stuart Broad told the Daily Mail.

“It’s been one of the most entertaining series of all time and for
England to come out with nine points from a possible 60, the system’s
wrong and needs looking at.”

Speaking before the final Ashes Test, Pat Cummins had said, “This series
has been a bit of an outlier I think. We haven’t had any over-rate
sanctions over the last few years until this series. It feels like this
one has been played at a different pace. It’s something we need to speak
about in ODI cricket as well, when you’re setting fields the time can
run out pretty quickly.

“It feels like there’s different plans every second over, or every over,
every couple of balls. One batter might have a totally different plan to
another one,” Cummins said.

“So there’s lots of field movement. A lot more fast-bowling overs than
there ever has been.

“This series is maybe that little bit higher-pressure, and it’s not only
the fielding side but you see the batters taking that little bit of
extra time.”

Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
officials to keep up the pace of play.

“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.

On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
<FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:

>
>Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>officials to keep up the pace of play.
>
>“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>
>
Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>
>Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
>favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
>should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.
>
The penalties must be working when there are complaints about them.
Even the dumbest of captains should have by now caught on how to avoid
these penalties.

max.it

On Tuesday, 8 August 2023 at 15:00:24 UTC+1, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer wrote:
>
> Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
> favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
> should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.

Hmmm, if it wasn't for Steve Bucknor, England wouldn't have won in Karachi in 2001 as the Pakistani's wanted to completely rearrange the field between every ball.

And Des Haynes did a fine job in Trindad in 1990 when England were chasing a relatively modest target (that would have put them 2-0 up in the series); at one point the over rate dipped below 8 per hour.

Brian Lara subsequently described Haynes' actions as the worst he'd ever seen on a cricket field by an international captain.

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
> >officials to keep up the pace of play.
> >
> >“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
> >Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
> >ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
> >the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
> >losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
> >
> >
> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.

Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs

On 8/8/2023 7:11 AM, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>> officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>
>> “I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>> Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>> ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>> the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>> losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>>
>>
> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>>
>> Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
>> favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
>> should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.
>>
> The penalties must be working when there are complaints about them.
> Even the dumbest of captains should have by now caught on how to avoid
> these penalties.
>
> max.it

Penalties are RIGHT BUT they shouldn't AFFECT WTC points "THAT MUCH".

ICC should strike a balance between penalizing and completely making WTC
advancement a FARCE.

Imagine bangladesh, WI and Sri Lanka DELIBERATELY playing for DRAWS
while CONSCIOUSLY AVOIDING over rate penalties and hence accumulating
WTC points and being AHEAD of England or Australia in the final tally.

On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 22:09:41 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
<FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:

>On 8/8/2023 7:11 AM, max.it wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
>> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>>> officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>>
>>> “I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>>> Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>>> ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>>> the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>>> losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>>>
>>>
>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>>>
>>> Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
>>> favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
>>> should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.
>>>
>> The penalties must be working when there are complaints about them.
>> Even the dumbest of captains should have by now caught on how to avoid
>> these penalties.
>>
>> max.it
>
>
>
>Penalties are RIGHT BUT they shouldn't AFFECT WTC points "THAT MUCH".
>
>ICC should strike a balance between penalizing and completely making WTC
>advancement a FARCE.
>
The financial penalties for slow over rates don't work and have never
worked.

>Imagine bangladesh, WI and Sri Lanka DELIBERATELY playing for DRAWS
>while CONSCIOUSLY AVOIDING over rate penalties and hence accumulating
>WTC points and being AHEAD of England or Australia in the final tally.
>
That would be a clever use of the regulations, any team could do that.

max.it

On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
<hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44?AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
>> <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>> >officials to keep up the pace of play.
>> >
>> >“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>> >Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>> >ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>> >the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>> >losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>> >
>> >
>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>
>Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs
>
>
The captains will have to do it because it is their job.
Lets have the captains penalised more heavily, maybe the following the
overtime they would have to miss a session or a even match, lose all
of their match fee or accumulate points that would add to them being
suspended. The penalty has to be disruptive to the entire team
otherwise the captains will just pay to play the overtime.

I would cojole the bowling team along in a limited overs game if they
are close to their time limit but I have no authority to make them
bowl more overs. I'm sure test umpires are in similar communication
with the captains.

On 8/8/2023 11:54 PM, max.it wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 22:09:41 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/8/2023 7:11 AM, max.it wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
>>> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>>>> officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>>>
>>>> “I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>>>> Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>>>> ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>>>> the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>>>> losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>>>>
>>>> Former England captain Nasser Hussain, on the other hand, was fully in
>>>> favour of stringent penalties for slow-over rates. “I do think the ICC
>>>> should continue to be strong with teams,” he said.
>>>>
>>> The penalties must be working when there are complaints about them.
>>> Even the dumbest of captains should have by now caught on how to avoid
>>> these penalties.
>>>
>>> max.it
>>
>>
>>
>> Penalties are RIGHT BUT they shouldn't AFFECT WTC points "THAT MUCH".
>>
>> ICC should strike a balance between penalizing and completely making WTC
>> advancement a FARCE.
>>
> The financial penalties for slow over rates don't work and have never
> worked.
>

TRUE but ICC can come up with a BETTER PENALTY SYSTEM than the current
DOCKING of WTC Points.

>> Imagine bangladesh, WI and Sri Lanka DELIBERATELY playing for DRAWS
>> while CONSCIOUSLY AVOIDING over rate penalties and hence accumulating
>> WTC points and being AHEAD of England or Australia in the final tally.
>>
> That would be a clever use of the regulations, any team could do that.
>
> max.it
>

On Wednesday, 9 August 2023 at 02:22:35 UTC+1, Hamish Laws wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> > <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
> > >officials to keep up the pace of play.
> > >
> > >“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
> > >Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
> > >ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
> > >the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
> > >losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review..
> > >
> > >
> > Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
> Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs

It didn't help that there was a very low proportion of spin bowled, partly because both sides were without their first-choice spinner for all or most of the series.

28.1% of balls bowled were spin, compared to 43.3% in the 2019 Ashes. 28.1% is the lowest in any Ashes series (for simplicity, I excluded bowlers in the "mixture/unknown" category on Cricinfo). The previous lowest was 30.2% in 1905, although that is a very dubious figure, as both Armstrong and Noble are in the "mixture/unknown" category. Apart from that, the lowest was 32..1% in 2001.

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 2:00:32 PM UTC+1, David North wrote:
> On Wednesday, 9 August 2023 at 02:22:35 UTC+1, Hamish Laws wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> > > On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> > > <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
> > > >officials to keep up the pace of play.
> > > >
> > > >“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
> > > >Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
> > > >ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
> > > >the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
> > > >losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
> > Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs
> It didn't help that there was a very low proportion of spin bowled, partly because both sides were without their first-choice spinner for all or most of the series.
>
> 28.1% of balls bowled were spin, compared to 43.3% in the 2019 Ashes. 28.1% is the lowest in any Ashes series (for simplicity, I excluded bowlers in the "mixture/unknown" category on Cricinfo). The previous lowest was 30.2% in 1905, although that is a very dubious figure, as both Armstrong and Noble are in the "mixture/unknown" category. Apart from that, the lowest was 32.1% in 2001.

Armstrong bowled leg breaks (and possibly a googly) Noble was an early adopter of swing bowling... RH

On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:11:37 +0100, max.it wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>>officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>
>>“I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>>Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>>ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>>the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>>losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>>
>>
> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.

How does the captain ensure that the batters are ready if he's sitting in
the shed?

Anyhoo... Has the ICC changed the daily minimum number of overs since;
a) The introduction of the VAR
b) The increase in the number of VAR appeals
c) The compulsory concussion test
d) The compulsory change of helmet after its been hit by a boncer

alvey

On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 21:09:08 -0000 (UTC), alvey
<Paddy.O.Furniture@Coast.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Aug 2023 15:11:37 +0100, max.it wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
>> <FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer@america.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>>>officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>>
>>>?I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>>>Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter?s
>>>ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>>>the batsman gets back to his crease. We?ve got to find a way not to be
>>>losing so much time in these games,? he said on the ICC Review.
>>>
>>>
>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>
>How does the captain ensure that the batters are ready if he's sitting in
>the shed?

Have a wee look at law 1.

max.it
>
>Anyhoo... Has the ICC changed the daily minimum number of overs since;
>a) The introduction of the VAR
>b) The increase in the number of VAR appeals
>c) The compulsory concussion test
>d) The compulsory change of helmet after its been hit by a boncer
>
>
>alvey

On 09/08/2023 14:30, Robert Henderson wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 2:00:32 PM UTC+1, David North wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 9 August 2023 at 02:22:35 UTC+1, Hamish Laws wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
>>>> <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
>>>>> officials to keep up the pace of play.
>>>>>
>>>>> “I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
>>>>> Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
>>>>> ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
>>>>> the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
>>>>> losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
>>> Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs
>> It didn't help that there was a very low proportion of spin bowled, partly because both sides were without their first-choice spinner for all or most of the series.
>>
>> 28.1% of balls bowled were spin, compared to 43.3% in the 2019 Ashes. 28.1% is the lowest in any Ashes series (for simplicity, I excluded bowlers in the "mixture/unknown" category on Cricinfo). The previous lowest was 30.2% in 1905, although that is a very dubious figure, as both Armstrong and Noble are in the "mixture/unknown" category. Apart from that, the lowest was 32.1% in 2001.
>
> Armstrong bowled leg breaks (and possibly a googly) Noble was an early adopter of swing bowling... RH

Despite Armstrong bowling easily the most overs of anyone in the series,
adding him to the spin figure and Noble to the pace only increases the
percentage of spin to 30.7%.

--
David North

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 6:53:36 AM UTC+1, David North wrote:
> On 09/08/2023 14:30, Robert Henderson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 2:00:32 PM UTC+1, David North wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, 9 August 2023 at 02:22:35 UTC+1, Hamish Laws wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC+10, max.it wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 07:00:17 -0700, FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
> >>>> <FBInCIAnNSATe...@america.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Former Australia captain Ricky Ponting placed the onus on the match
> >>>>> officials to keep up the pace of play.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “I think the umpires need to start just getting the players around more.
> >>>>> Getting them ready, getting them organised, making sure the batter’s
> >>>>> ready to face up, making sure the bowler is at the end of his mark when
> >>>>> the batsman gets back to his crease. We’ve got to find a way not to be
> >>>>> losing so much time in these games,” he said on the ICC Review.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Ponting wants the umpires to do the captains' job.
> >>> Because the captains aren't doing it and the result is every day goes to overtime and, for a lot of them, you still don't get the required overs
> >> It didn't help that there was a very low proportion of spin bowled, partly because both sides were without their first-choice spinner for all or most of the series.
> >>
> >> 28.1% of balls bowled were spin, compared to 43.3% in the 2019 Ashes. 28.1% is the lowest in any Ashes series (for simplicity, I excluded bowlers in the "mixture/unknown" category on Cricinfo). The previous lowest was 30..2% in 1905, although that is a very dubious figure, as both Armstrong and Noble are in the "mixture/unknown" category. Apart from that, the lowest was 32.1% in 2001.
> >
> > Armstrong bowled leg breaks (and possibly a googly) Noble was an early adopter of swing bowling... RH
> Despite Armstrong bowling easily the most overs of anyone in the series,
> adding him to the spin figure and Noble to the pace only increases the
> percentage of spin to 30.7%.
>
> --
> David North

Armstrong bowled a form of leg theory (note;: leg theory does not have to be fast bowling ) designed to restrict scoring which it did very effectively in Armstrong's hands.

As to what Armstrong could have bowled in 1905 it is not inconceivable that he might well have developed a googly by then because Bernard Bosanquet had already shown what it could do by 1905 in both Oz and England. . RH