In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I haven't done for a few years. I've checked various ticket split services (suspect they all the same underneath) but actually the best option seems to be an Anytime Single from Aberdeen to Luton. The journey can just about be done in a long day, but as the Anytime Single is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight stay in Glasgow. But it will then be a summer Saturday and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow to Carlisle and from Leeds to London might be a bit busy, so I want to get seat reservations. But I can't work out how.

None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to Luton (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the Settle line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked). And if I were to buy the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting seat bookings on the trains I actually plan to use. I suspect that the only way is to visit a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN as they recently refused to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got reprimanded for that). Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through, or would King's Cross be more competent, as they may even have heard of Aberdeen and Glasgow?

Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online, that's what I'll have to do.

Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some experience of using the Routeing Guide.

The list of maps that can be used for any given pair of Routeing Points is a PDF file of over 2200 pages for a start, and the maps now seem to be unavailable as actual images, all I could find was awful "interactive" versions in a pull-down list
https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
Again, unless anyone else knows better. It turns out that the route I want to take uses maps FD and TC, the latter amazingly still called after the the Thames Clyde Express which I have taken once or twice but which surely stopped running over 30 years ago. I think the ATOC is deliberately making the Routeing Guide almost impossible to use but they seem to refuse to provide an online equivalent.

--
Clive Page

In message <jbvh45Fk2cdU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:38:13 on Sat, 16
Apr 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:

>In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train
>back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I
>haven't done for a few years. I've checked various ticket split
>services (suspect they all the same underneath)

I don't think they are.

I recently recommended this site: https://trainscanbecheaper.info/
because it has a lot more levers to pull.

>but actually the best option seems to be an Anytime Single from
>Aberdeen to Luton. The journey can just about be done in a long day,
>but as the Anytime Single is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight
>stay in Glasgow. But it will then be a summer Saturday

Beware bustitutions at weekends.

>and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow to Carlisle and from Leeds to
>London might be a bit busy, so I want to get seat reservations. But I
>can't work out how.
>
>None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to
>Luton (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the
>Settle line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked).

Via Appleby is the usual magic spell.

>And if I were to buy the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting
>seat bookings on the trains I actually plan to use. I suspect that
>the only way is to visit a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN
>as they recently refused to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got
>reprimanded for that). Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through,
>or would King's Cross be more competent, as they may even have heard of
>Aberdeen and Glasgow?
>
>Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online,
>that's what I'll have to do.

The best bet is to use the booking site for the company operating the
trains you want to use (especially if you want to be able to choose a
seat). Failing that, try a few and see what they offer.

I tend to find it's straightforward, with the main hiccup being some
don't acknowledge the availability of e-tickets on some flows.

However, I agree that booking a trip with an extended stop en-route (eg
overnight at Glasgow) is beyond the scope of any online booking site I'm
aware of. The longest is perhaps 2hrs (although occasionally you get an
overnight stay somewhere because that's required by the timetabling.

>Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the
>shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route
>via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some
>experience of using the Routeing Guide.

All you have to do is try booking it. They won't sell you an invalid
ticket for a trip like that.

If you distrust commercial sites, try Nationalrail.co.uk, and it'll tell
you if multiple tickets are required.

fwiw, I've tried both approaches just now, and Aberdeen to London (or
Luton) via Glasgow and Appleby *isn't* permitted. Indeed, trying to
split it manually you might even have to kill two birds with one stone
and split the tickets at Glasgow and Leeds. Have you tried Glasgow (via
Appleby) to Nottingham - a few years ago I picked up a really cheap AP
ticket as I'm pretty sure it's a route not much in demand.
--
Roland Perry

On 16/04/2022 10:38, Clive Page wrote:
> In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train
> back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I
> haven't done for a few years.   I've checked various ticket split
> services (suspect they all the same underneath) but actually the best
> option seems to be an Anytime Single from Aberdeen to Luton.   The
> journey can just about be done in a long day, but as the Anytime Single
> is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight stay in Glasgow.   But it
> will then be a summer Saturday and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow
> to Carlisle and from Leeds to London might be a bit busy, so I want to
> get seat reservations.   But I can't work out how.
>
> None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to Luton
> (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the Settle
> line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked).   And if I were to buy
> the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting seat bookings on the
> trains I actually plan to use.   I suspect that the only way is to visit
> a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN as they recently refused
> to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got reprimanded for that).
> Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through, or would King's Cross be
> more competent, as they may even have heard of Aberdeen and Glasgow?
>
> Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online,
> that's what I'll have to do.
>
> Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the
> shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route
> via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some
> experience of using the Routeing Guide.
>
> The list of maps that can be used for any given pair of Routeing Points
> is a PDF file of over 2200 pages for a start, and the maps now seem to
> be unavailable as actual images, all I could find was awful
> "interactive" versions in a pull-down list
> https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
> Again, unless anyone else knows better.  It turns out that the route I
> want to take uses maps FD and TC, the latter amazingly still called
> after the the Thames Clyde Express which I have taken once or twice but
> which surely stopped running over 30 years ago.  I think the ATOC is
> deliberately making the Routeing Guide almost impossible to use but they
> seem to refuse to provide an online equivalent.
>
>
Cannot help you with ticketing, but the following may help with the
actual journey.

Unless you are travelling in the middle of July (the former "Glasgow
Holidays" weekends), the Pendolinos will almost certainly contain
numerous reservations from stations such as Carlisle, Lancaster or
Preston, which you are free to use between Glasgow & Carlisle.

It was pre-Covid when I last did the Settle & Carlisle line, but at that
time, the only reservations were groups of seats for pre-booked coach
parties -- there were no reservations for individual seats. You might
just get a "nominal reservation" entitling travel on a pre-booked
service. You can usually guarantee a seat if you stand near a door a few
minutes before they are opened. Departures from Carlisle are usually
from the south-end bays (Platform 6 or 5).

On 16/04/2022 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> All you have to do is try booking it. They won't sell you an invalid ticket for a trip like that.

That may well be true, but it doesn't follow that they will in all cases sell me a ticket for a trip that is in fact valid through somewhat obscure easements in the Routeing Guide.

I thought that the other day I got a booking engine to offer me a ticket for the route that I want to use, but today it turns out that if I put in two Via points, the second being on the Settle and Carlisle line, it simply ignores the second via point, which is annoying. I can't see how to force National Rail to use more than one via point.

As a work around, I followed the rules of the Routeing Guide for ABD to LTN. ABD is a Routing Point, but LTN isn't so one has to use Bedford or West Hampstead. Fortunately there is an easement allowing East Midlands to Luton along the Midland Main Line even if the ticket to Bedford is dearer. And as far as I can discover, ABD to Bedford allows maps FD + TC (ABD to London allows FA + TC). Either FD or FA includes Aberdeen to Glasgow, while TC allows Glasgow to Luton via the Settle and Carlisle line and the MML. So as far as I can see, this route is valid on an anytime any reasonable route ticket.

Thanks for the tip about Nottingham. My previous experience suggests that Market Harborough is a magic place for ticketing, but it would mean finding trains that stop there. More research is needed... (as all academic papers say).

--
Clive Page

In message <jc3eruFckidU1@mid.individual.net>, at 22:24:14 on Sun, 17
Apr 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 16/04/2022 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:

>> All you have to do is try booking it. They won't sell you an invalid
>>ticket for a trip like that.
>
>That may well be true, but it doesn't follow that they will in all
>cases sell me a ticket for a trip that is in fact valid through
>somewhat obscure easements in the Routeing Guide.

It'd be interesting to do a mystery purchase of such a ticket, and
check. Have any concrete examples of this? Of course a lot of easements
are actually dis-easements, and I'd expect those to be taken into
account too.

>I thought that the other day I got a booking engine to offer me a
>ticket for the route that I want to use, but today it turns out that if
>I put in two Via points, the second being on the Settle and Carlisle
>line, it simply ignores the second via point, which is annoying. I
>can't see how to force National Rail to use more than one via point.

Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:

Travel Via
Station, and...
Add another

>As a work around, I followed the rules of the Routeing Guide for ABD to
>LTN. ABD is a Routing Point, but LTN isn't so one has to use Bedford
>or West Hampstead. Fortunately there is an easement allowing East
>Midlands to Luton along the Midland Main Line even if the ticket to
>Bedford is dearer. And as far as I can discover, ABD to Bedford allows
>maps FD + TC (ABD to London allows FA + TC). Either FD or FA includes
>Aberdeen to Glasgow, while TC allows Glasgow to Luton via the Settle
>and Carlisle line and the MML. So as far as I can see, this route is
>valid on an anytime any reasonable route ticket.

I can get National Rail to give me a through ticket Aberdeen, Glasgow,
Euston StP, Bedford. Admittedly that's ignoring my specification of "via
Appleby". And while offering lots of very complicated trips (eg via
Bletchley if I say "Avoid Euston") I can't get trainscanbecheaper.info
to route me via Glasgow and Appleby (and the MML to Bedford).

However it will give me Glasgow-Carlisle-Leeds-Derby-MML_south. Once
again maybe split at Glasgow to also work around the overnight stay.

>Thanks for the tip about Nottingham. My previous experience suggests
>that Market Harborough is a magic place for ticketing, but it would
>mean finding trains that stop there. More research is needed... (as
>all academic papers say).

Market Harborough is good for getting to London from the north because
it's noticeably cheap than Nottingham, and once you've taken the 40
minute NOT-MHR leg into account no slower end to end from much of South
Notts. And parking is easier. Nowadays it gets up to 2tph to London.

Back in the day, the cheapest from Nottingham to London was splitting at
Kettering between an Anytime return and a Travelcard.

Let's see: £197 vs £64.30 + £123.50 = £187.80, which while getting the
travelcard element as a bonus, isn't the saving I was expecting.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <jc3eruFckidU1@mid.individual.net>, at 22:24:14 on Sun, 17
> Apr 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 16/04/2022 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> All you have to do is try booking it. They won't sell you an invalid
>>> ticket for a trip like that.
>>
>> That may well be true, but it doesn't follow that they will in all
>> cases sell me a ticket for a trip that is in fact valid through
>> somewhat obscure easements in the Routeing Guide.
>
> It'd be interesting to do a mystery purchase of such a ticket, and
> check. Have any concrete examples of this? Of course a lot of easements
> are actually dis-easements, and I'd expect those to be taken into
> account too.
>
>> I thought that the other day I got a booking engine to offer me a
>> ticket for the route that I want to use, but today it turns out that if
>> I put in two Via points, the second being on the Settle and Carlisle
>> line, it simply ignores the second via point, which is annoying. I
>> can't see how to force National Rail to use more than one via point.
>
> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>
> Travel Via
> Station, and...
> Add another

I've also noticed that National Rail can ignore via points. It's a
nuisance as it drops them silently so you have to carefully check the
routes offered.

>
>> As a work around, I followed the rules of the Routeing Guide for ABD to
>> LTN. ABD is a Routing Point, but LTN isn't so one has to use Bedford
>> or West Hampstead. Fortunately there is an easement allowing East
>> Midlands to Luton along the Midland Main Line even if the ticket to
>> Bedford is dearer. And as far as I can discover, ABD to Bedford allows
>> maps FD + TC (ABD to London allows FA + TC). Either FD or FA includes
>> Aberdeen to Glasgow, while TC allows Glasgow to Luton via the Settle
>> and Carlisle line and the MML. So as far as I can see, this route is
>> valid on an anytime any reasonable route ticket.
>
> I can get National Rail to give me a through ticket Aberdeen, Glasgow,
> Euston StP, Bedford. Admittedly that's ignoring my specification of "via
> Appleby". And while offering lots of very complicated trips (eg via
> Bletchley if I say "Avoid Euston") I can't get trainscanbecheaper.info
> to route me via Glasgow and Appleby (and the MML to Bedford).
>
> However it will give me Glasgow-Carlisle-Leeds-Derby-MML_south. Once
> again maybe split at Glasgow to also work around the overnight stay.
>
>> Thanks for the tip about Nottingham. My previous experience suggests
>> that Market Harborough is a magic place for ticketing, but it would
>> mean finding trains that stop there. More research is needed... (as
>> all academic papers say).
>
> Market Harborough is good for getting to London from the north because
> it's noticeably cheap than Nottingham, and once you've taken the 40
> minute NOT-MHR leg into account no slower end to end from much of South
> Notts. And parking is easier. Nowadays it gets up to 2tph to London.
>
> Back in the day, the cheapest from Nottingham to London was splitting at
> Kettering between an Anytime return and a Travelcard.
>
> Let's see: £197 vs £64.30 + £123.50 = £187.80, which while getting the
> travelcard element as a bonus, isn't the saving I was expecting.

On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>
> Travel Via
> Station, and...
> Add another

That's what I thought, but if I enter two via points, it consistently ignores the second one. Maybe I need to try a few more browsers, have only done it on Firefox and Chrome so far. I've already discovered the the inconspicuous 'Reset all' option doesn't actually reset everything - but if you delete the appropriate cookies, then you can get what you want. But it does make it take a lot of time to explore all the options.

--
Clive Page

On 18/04/2022 18:44, Clive Page wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>>
>>    Travel Via
>>    Station,     and...
>>    Add another
>
> That's what I thought, but if I enter two via points, it consistently
> ignores the second one.  Maybe I need to try a few more browsers, have
> only done it on Firefox and Chrome so far.  I've already discovered the
> the inconspicuous 'Reset all' option doesn't actually reset everything -
> but if you delete the appropriate cookies, then you can get what you
> want.   But it does make it take a lot of time to explore all the options.

Firefox private browsing, Chrome incognito mode or similar may be an
easier way to prevent previous searches from contaminating new ones.

On 18/04/2022 22:54, Certes wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 18:44, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>>>
>>>    Travel Via
>>>    Station,     and...
>>>    Add another
>>
>> That's what I thought, but if I enter two via points, it consistently
>> ignores the second one.  Maybe I need to try a few more browsers, have
>> only done it on Firefox and Chrome so far.  I've already discovered
>> the the inconspicuous 'Reset all' option doesn't actually reset
>> everything - but if you delete the appropriate cookies, then you can
>> get what you want.   But it does make it take a lot of time to explore
>> all the options.
>
> Firefox private browsing, Chrome incognito mode or similar may be an
> easier way to prevent previous searches from contaminating new ones.
>
The TfW website has some contaminations as well. In particular the
"later trains" can revert to a previous search. It's next to impossible
to report as their Customer Services operatives tend so say "it works on
my browser" and wont take it further.

I have managed to get two other different errors reported though.

I use Firefox as my password manager so I'm keen for them to sort it out.

In message <jc5mccFpkcvU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:44:43 on Mon, 18
Apr 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:

>On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>> Travel Via
>> Station, and...
>> Add another
>
>That's what I thought, but if I enter two via points, it consistently
>ignores the second one. Maybe I need to try a few more browsers, have
>only done it on Firefox and Chrome so far. I've already discovered the
>the inconspicuous 'Reset all' option doesn't actually reset everything
>- but if you delete the appropriate cookies, then you can get what you
>want. But it does make it take a lot of time to explore all the options.

I wouldn't use the Nationalrail site for routine enquiries, because it
has several quirks, including the "stickiness" you mention. As well as
having far fewer options it allows to be set *at all*, than some other
sites.

Having said that I'm still pretty confident that as a site to *check
validity * rather than *search for* tickets:

(a) They will have more resources and motivation to accurately implement
the routing guide [than commercial alternatives] and maybe even the
impartiality rules [than a TOC].

(b) In a dispute with a TOC, or ultimately the courts, it's likely to be
regarded as definitive (compared to other booking sites), and
quoting the routing guide puts you in a position of being a self-
declared "expert witness", which also won't wash a lot of the time.
You'd need an independent one.

As for the tickets it offers, especially with multiple "vias", I suspect
there's some internal forces which are reluctant to suggest routes which
give extended travel times. Some sites also have either declared, or
invisible, "maximum number of changes" they are prepared to contemplate.
Either because perhaps their algorithms run out of steam, or they think
that asking a passenger to change trains ten times is too much of an ask
(even if it does save ten minutes or ten pence).

I'll do some mystery shopping later, to see if I can provoke the
Nationalrail site to offer an alternative route triggered by a second
"via", before assuming that it never does.
--
Roland Perry

In message <XIdgENS4NoXiFAYk@perry.uk>, at 10:40:08 on Tue, 19 Apr 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>In message <jc5mccFpkcvU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:44:43 on Mon, 18
>Apr 2022, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>
>>On 18/04/2022 07:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> Trivially easy. The "Route" advanced option has three fields:
>>> Travel Via
>>> Station, and...
>>> Add another
>>
>>That's what I thought, but if I enter two via points, it consistently
>>ignores the second one. Maybe I need to try a few more browsers, have
>>only done it on Firefox and Chrome so far. I've already discovered
>>the the inconspicuous 'Reset all' option doesn't actually reset
>>everything - but if you delete the appropriate cookies, then you can
>>get what you want. But it does make it take a lot of time to explore
>>all the options.
>
>I wouldn't use the Nationalrail site for routine enquiries, because it
>has several quirks, including the "stickiness" you mention. As well as
>having far fewer options it allows to be set *at all*, than some other
>sites.
>
>Having said that I'm still pretty confident that as a site to *check
>validity * rather than *search for* tickets:
>
>(a) They will have more resources and motivation to accurately implement
> the routing guide [than commercial alternatives] and maybe even the
> impartiality rules [than a TOC].
>
>(b) In a dispute with a TOC, or ultimately the courts, it's likely to be
> regarded as definitive (compared to other booking sites), and
> quoting the routing guide puts you in a position of being a self-
> declared "expert witness", which also won't wash a lot of the time.
> You'd need an independent one.
>
>As for the tickets it offers, especially with multiple "vias", I
>suspect there's some internal forces which are reluctant to suggest
>routes which give extended travel times. Some sites also have either
>declared, or invisible, "maximum number of changes" they are prepared
>to contemplate. Either because perhaps their algorithms run out of
>steam, or they think that asking a passenger to change trains ten times
>is too much of an ask (even if it does save ten minutes or ten pence).
>
>I'll do some mystery shopping later, to see if I can provoke the
>Nationalrail site to offer an alternative route triggered by a second
>"via", before assuming that it never does.

As ever, I'll try a trip I'm familiar with: Ely to Manchester. It's
quite rich pickings because as well as the direct [Liverpool] train you
are allowed to via Doncaster, or Birmingham, (and probably Leicester and
Sheffield).

trainscanbecheaper gets it right when I first select "via Doncaster" -
and thence either Leeds or Sheffield - and excludes the former when I
also specify "via Sheffield".

nationalrail is OK with the "via Doncaster (removing the direct and
Birmingham trains), but ignores an additional "via Sheffield".

But curiously, if I enter (only) "via Sheffield" first, it's OK, but
when adding "via Doncaster" as the second, flips to the Leeds routing.
ie it's now ignoring the *first* via I selected.

Let's try it looking the other way: Manchester to Ely, via Sheffield and
Doncaster. And that *also* ignores Sheffield, despite it being the first
place you'd travel through. So the ordering as such probably isn't
important.

There's something inside that's quashing the "via" Sheffield from either
direction, irrespective of the order I originally specified them.

Nothing leaps out at me regarding the number of changes, end to end
time, or frequency.
--
Roland Perry

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 10:38, Clive Page wrote:
>> In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train
>> back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I
>> haven't done for a few years.   I've checked various ticket split
>> services (suspect they all the same underneath) but actually the best
>> option seems to be an Anytime Single from Aberdeen to Luton.   The
>> journey can just about be done in a long day, but as the Anytime Single
>> is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight stay in Glasgow.   But it
>> will then be a summer Saturday and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow
>> to Carlisle and from Leeds to London might be a bit busy, so I want to
>> get seat reservations.   But I can't work out how.
>>
>> None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to Luton
>> (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the Settle
>> line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked).   And if I were to buy
>> the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting seat bookings on the
>> trains I actually plan to use.   I suspect that the only way is to visit
>> a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN as they recently refused
>> to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got reprimanded for that).
>> Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through, or would King's Cross be
>> more competent, as they may even have heard of Aberdeen and Glasgow?
>>
>> Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online,
>> that's what I'll have to do.
>>
>> Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the
>> shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route
>> via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some
>> experience of using the Routeing Guide.
>>
>> The list of maps that can be used for any given pair of Routeing Points
>> is a PDF file of over 2200 pages for a start, and the maps now seem to
>> be unavailable as actual images, all I could find was awful
>> "interactive" versions in a pull-down list
>> https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
>> Again, unless anyone else knows better.  It turns out that the route I
>> want to take uses maps FD and TC, the latter amazingly still called
>> after the the Thames Clyde Express which I have taken once or twice but
>> which surely stopped running over 30 years ago.  I think the ATOC is
>> deliberately making the Routeing Guide almost impossible to use but they
>> seem to refuse to provide an online equivalent.
>>
>>
> Cannot help you with ticketing, but the following may help with the
> actual journey.
>
> Unless you are travelling in the middle of July (the former "Glasgow
> Holidays" weekends), the Pendolinos will almost certainly contain
> numerous reservations from stations such as Carlisle, Lancaster or
> Preston, which you are free to use between Glasgow & Carlisle.
>
> It was pre-Covid when I last did the Settle & Carlisle line, but at that
> time, the only reservations were groups of seats for pre-booked coach
> parties -- there were no reservations for individual seats. You might
> just get a "nominal reservation" entitling travel on a pre-booked
> service. You can usually guarantee a seat if you stand near a door a few
> minutes before they are opened. Departures from Carlisle are usually
> from the south-end bays (Platform 6 or 5).

I don’t think any Northern trains have seat reservations (other than for
parties), but I think their newest trains have the capability. The S&C
trains normally seem to be worked by class 158 DMUs, 2 or 4 cars depending
on the particular service.

--
Jeremy Double

On 19/04/2022 14:39, Jeremy Double wrote:
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16/04/2022 10:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>> In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train
>>> back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I
>>> haven't done for a few years.   I've checked various ticket split
>>> services (suspect they all the same underneath) but actually the best
>>> option seems to be an Anytime Single from Aberdeen to Luton.   The
>>> journey can just about be done in a long day, but as the Anytime Single
>>> is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight stay in Glasgow.   But it
>>> will then be a summer Saturday and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow
>>> to Carlisle and from Leeds to London might be a bit busy, so I want to
>>> get seat reservations.   But I can't work out how.
>>>
>>> None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to Luton
>>> (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the Settle
>>> line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked).   And if I were to buy
>>> the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting seat bookings on the
>>> trains I actually plan to use.   I suspect that the only way is to visit
>>> a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN as they recently refused
>>> to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got reprimanded for that).
>>> Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through, or would King's Cross be
>>> more competent, as they may even have heard of Aberdeen and Glasgow?
>>>
>>> Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online,
>>> that's what I'll have to do.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the
>>> shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route
>>> via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some
>>> experience of using the Routeing Guide.
>>>
>>> The list of maps that can be used for any given pair of Routeing Points
>>> is a PDF file of over 2200 pages for a start, and the maps now seem to
>>> be unavailable as actual images, all I could find was awful
>>> "interactive" versions in a pull-down list
>>> https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
>>> Again, unless anyone else knows better.  It turns out that the route I
>>> want to take uses maps FD and TC, the latter amazingly still called
>>> after the the Thames Clyde Express which I have taken once or twice but
>>> which surely stopped running over 30 years ago.  I think the ATOC is
>>> deliberately making the Routeing Guide almost impossible to use but they
>>> seem to refuse to provide an online equivalent.
>>>
>>>
>> Cannot help you with ticketing, but the following may help with the
>> actual journey.
>>
>> Unless you are travelling in the middle of July (the former "Glasgow
>> Holidays" weekends), the Pendolinos will almost certainly contain
>> numerous reservations from stations such as Carlisle, Lancaster or
>> Preston, which you are free to use between Glasgow & Carlisle.
>>
>> It was pre-Covid when I last did the Settle & Carlisle line, but at that
>> time, the only reservations were groups of seats for pre-booked coach
>> parties -- there were no reservations for individual seats. You might
>> just get a "nominal reservation" entitling travel on a pre-booked
>> service. You can usually guarantee a seat if you stand near a door a few
>> minutes before they are opened. Departures from Carlisle are usually
>> from the south-end bays (Platform 6 or 5).
>
> I don’t think any Northern trains have seat reservations (other than for
> parties), but I think their newest trains have the capability. The S&C
> trains normally seem to be worked by class 158 DMUs, 2 or 4 cars depending
> on the particular service.
>
They did last time I travelled with them about 34 months ago.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 14:39, Jeremy Double wrote:
>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 16/04/2022 10:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> In a few weeks I have to fly to Aberdeen but have time to take a train
>>>> back to Luton and plan to go via the Settle-Carlisle line which I
>>>> haven't done for a few years.   I've checked various ticket split
>>>> services (suspect they all the same underneath) but actually the best
>>>> option seems to be an Anytime Single from Aberdeen to Luton.   The
>>>> journey can just about be done in a long day, but as the Anytime Single
>>>> is valid for 2 days I plan an an overnight stay in Glasgow.   But it
>>>> will then be a summer Saturday and I wonder if the trains from Glasgow
>>>> to Carlisle and from Leeds to London might be a bit busy, so I want to
>>>> get seat reservations.   But I can't work out how.
>>>>
>>>> None of the ticket booking engines will do me a ticket Aberdeen to Luton
>>>> (or London) split over two days (and getting them to include the Settle
>>>> line was a challenge, via Dent finally worked).   And if I were to buy
>>>> the Anytime Single I can't find a way of getting seat bookings on the
>>>> trains I actually plan to use.   I suspect that the only way is to visit
>>>> a competent ticket office (that rules out LTN as they recently refused
>>>> to sell me a CIV ticket and subsequently got reprimanded for that).
>>>> Maybe St.Pancras when I'm next passing through, or would King's Cross be
>>>> more competent, as they may even have heard of Aberdeen and Glasgow?
>>>>
>>>> Unless somebody else knows the secret of getting seat bookings online,
>>>> that's what I'll have to do.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, the route Aberdeen to Luton via Edinburgh appears the
>>>> shortest distance so is automatically valid, but proving that the route
>>>> via Glasgow is valid took me a lot of time, even though I've some
>>>> experience of using the Routeing Guide.
>>>>
>>>> The list of maps that can be used for any given pair of Routeing Points
>>>> is a PDF file of over 2200 pages for a start, and the maps now seem to
>>>> be unavailable as actual images, all I could find was awful
>>>> "interactive" versions in a pull-down list
>>>> https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
>>>> Again, unless anyone else knows better.  It turns out that the route I
>>>> want to take uses maps FD and TC, the latter amazingly still called
>>>> after the the Thames Clyde Express which I have taken once or twice but
>>>> which surely stopped running over 30 years ago.  I think the ATOC is
>>>> deliberately making the Routeing Guide almost impossible to use but they
>>>> seem to refuse to provide an online equivalent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Cannot help you with ticketing, but the following may help with the
>>> actual journey.
>>>
>>> Unless you are travelling in the middle of July (the former "Glasgow
>>> Holidays" weekends), the Pendolinos will almost certainly contain
>>> numerous reservations from stations such as Carlisle, Lancaster or
>>> Preston, which you are free to use between Glasgow & Carlisle.
>>>
>>> It was pre-Covid when I last did the Settle & Carlisle line, but at that
>>> time, the only reservations were groups of seats for pre-booked coach
>>> parties -- there were no reservations for individual seats. You might
>>> just get a "nominal reservation" entitling travel on a pre-booked
>>> service. You can usually guarantee a seat if you stand near a door a few
>>> minutes before they are opened. Departures from Carlisle are usually
>>> from the south-end bays (Platform 6 or 5).
>>
>> I don’t think any Northern trains have seat reservations (other than for
>> parties), but I think their newest trains have the capability. The S&C
>> trains normally seem to be worked by class 158 DMUs, 2 or 4 cars depending
>> on the particular service.
>>
> They did last time I travelled with them about 34 months ago.

They never have IMX, and I travel on Northern regularly.

See
https://help.northernrailway.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360006090717-Can-I-reserve-a-seat-

--
Jeremy Double