Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>> hours.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>> circumstances.
>>>
>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>> properly. Again.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>
>>
>
> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?

The original class 800 and 801 contract did not cover the west country
routes, and the trains were not specified to be capable of them. For
example, they didn't have HST-matching performance on diesel.

> Also, consideration has to be given to rolling stock cascades, so it seems
> unlikely that anyone would ever think an IET would never encounter Dawlish.

They weren't designed to be suitable for the Devon Banks, so why would they
be passing Dawlish?

> Probably another case of something being omitted from the initial
> requirements.

Almost certainly.

> As per the fatigue cracking - there wasn’t a standard
> therefore it doesn’t happen.

But I wonder why Hitachi and GWR didn't think of Dawlish when the 802s were
ordered?

On 18/04/2022 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>> finally, to
>>>
>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The
>>> public
>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs
>>> I've
>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>
>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the
>> past
>> year.
>
>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>> who follow the same path.
>
> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
> small Suzuki one).
>
> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
> Honda Civic, VW Golf).

Definitely does, there's no Renault dealer in Guildford, consequently
you don't see many round here, plenty in Aldershot where there is a
dealer. Same applies to Fiat and a couple of other makes.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>
>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>
>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>> year.
>
>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>> who follow the same path.
>
> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
> small Suzuki one).
>
> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
> Honda Civic, VW Golf).

Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
brand?

From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>

While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.

On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>
>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>
>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>> year.
>>
>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>> who follow the same path.
>>
>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>> small Suzuki one).
>>
>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>
> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
> brand?
>
> From
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>
> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>
>

But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
order to delivery.

--
Colin

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>>
>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>
>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>>> year.
>>>
>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>
>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>
>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>
>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>> brand?
>>
>> From
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>
>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>
>>
>
>But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>order to delivery.

I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by July. It's now expected in December.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>>>> year.
>>>>
>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>
>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>
>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>> brand?
>>>
>>> From
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>
>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>> order to delivery.
>
> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
> July. It's now expected in December.
>

Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
guess by the dealer.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:03:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>>>>> year.
>>>>>
>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>
>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>> brand?
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>
>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>> order to delivery.
>>
>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>
>
>Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>guess by the dealer.

I suppose it's a bad sign if any particular makes are available with fast deliveries these days!

On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>>>>> year.
>>>>>
>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>
>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>> brand?
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>
>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>> order to delivery.
>>
>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>
>
> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
> guess by the dealer.
>

And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 09:50:44 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>> who follow the same path.
>> At that age fashion and image is no longer see as quite so important or
>> else such people would not not be seen wearing elasticated slip on shoes or
>> horrible trousers wear comfort and ease of getting into them is more
>> important than the look.
>>
>
>Yes, I believe the modern PHEV and EV MGs are selling well. It's nothing to
>do with the brand's history, just that they're decent, good value modern
>cars, much like other budget brands.

Depends on how you define good value. 30K for a wheeled blob straight out of the
bland-o-matic design studio with a ho hum interior.

The other point is, why would you support China when you don't have to? Sure,
with electronics and lots of other things we don't have a choice, but why
would you buy a chinese car (no one is stupid enough to think they're british
are they?) when you could buy european or japanese instead.

>cars and SUVs will be made in a new Lotus factory in Wuhan, using Geely
>platforms. Who knows, under the skin they may share some components with
>London taxis?

About time the london taxi rules were changes so cabbies are no longer
more or less forced to buy those overpriced, underspecced vehicles. Other UK
cities manage to get buy without taxis that can turn on a sixpence or have
auto locking doors.

On 18 Apr 2022 08:35:30 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>
>Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>year.
>That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>who follow the same path.

Possibly, but I think a total lack of taste and imagination has to come into it
too. Perhaps the sort of people who have gnomes in the front garden and visit
the same chavtastic caravan park every year in their tin shed to sit outside it
for 7 days doing bugger all then go home again.

>At that age fashion and image is no longer see as quite so important or
>else such people would not not be seen wearing elasticated slip on shoes or
>horrible trousers wear comfort and ease of getting into them is more
>important than the look.

Some elderly manage to keep a sense of taste and style, others just seem to give
up.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:12:07 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> They like to imagine the
>>> kudos if they become the savior of the company I suppose. Aston Martin and
>>> Lotus spring to mind as examples.
>>
>> Yes, definitely.
>>
>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>
> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>

I saw very few of their 'numbered' models. Their current 'lettered' range
appears to be more popular, particularly the ZS EV.

However they're still not particularly distinctive in appearance, so I
suspect that unless you're actively looking at grille/tail badges, they
just blend in to the background (in a way that older MGs don't).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>> hours.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>> circumstances.
>>>
>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>> properly. Again.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>
>>
>
> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>

HSTs.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>
>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>
>
> HSTs.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
>

But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
starting at London)

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>
>>
>> HSTs.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>>
>
> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
> starting at London)

Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
800s.

Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
resist the sea spray on the west country routes.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>
>>>
>>> HSTs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>> starting at London)
>
> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
> 800s.
>
> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>
>
>

So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HSTs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>>> starting at London)
>>
>> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
>> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
>> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
>> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
>> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
>> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
>> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
>> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
>> 800s.
>>
>> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
>> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
>> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
>> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
>> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
>> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>>
>>
>>
>
> So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
> known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?

I'd speculate that they ensured that the 802s didn't have the same specific
weakness as Voyagers, but didn't fully consider all the other ways that sea
water and spray could knock out a very complicated diesel-electric train.
This would just have been just one consideration on a long list of
potential issues with using trains designed for London-Bristol/Swansea on
the west country routes.

I don't suppose electric A-Trains run on that sort of route in Japan or
anywhere else, so Hitachi didn't have relevant experience of all the things
that can happen to a diesel-electric train in those salty, amphibious
conditions.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> HSTs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>>>> starting at London)
>>>
>>> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
>>> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
>>> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
>>> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
>>> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
>>> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
>>> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
>>> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
>>> 800s.
>>>
>>> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
>>> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
>>> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
>>> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
>>> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
>>> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
>> known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?
>
> I'd speculate that they ensured that the 802s didn't have the same specific
> weakness as Voyagers, but didn't fully consider all the other ways that sea
> water and spray could knock out a very complicated diesel-electric train.
> This would just have been just one consideration on a long list of
> potential issues with using trains designed for London-Bristol/Swansea on
> the west country routes.
>
> I don't suppose electric A-Trains run on that sort of route in Japan or
> anywhere else, so Hitachi didn't have relevant experience of all the things
> that can happen to a diesel-electric train in those salty, amphibious
> conditions.

Can it really be that Japan has no stretches of line like Dawlish or
Saltcoats?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HSTs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>>>>> starting at London)
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
>>>> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
>>>> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
>>>> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
>>>> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
>>>> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
>>>> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
>>>> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
>>>> 800s.
>>>>
>>>> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
>>>> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
>>>> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
>>>> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
>>>> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
>>>> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
>>> known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?
>>
>> I'd speculate that they ensured that the 802s didn't have the same specific
>> weakness as Voyagers, but didn't fully consider all the other ways that sea
>> water and spray could knock out a very complicated diesel-electric train.
>> This would just have been just one consideration on a long list of
>> potential issues with using trains designed for London-Bristol/Swansea on
>> the west country routes.
>>
>> I don't suppose electric A-Trains run on that sort of route in Japan or
>> anywhere else, so Hitachi didn't have relevant experience of all the things
>> that can happen to a diesel-electric train in those salty, amphibious
>> conditions.
>
> Can it really be that Japan has no stretches of line like Dawlish or
> Saltcoats?

I suspect not, not on an almost entirely electrified mainline network. I
have been on DMUs there, but they tend to run on minor, privately operated
branches. I think all A-Trains other than our IETs are electric.

Am 18.04.2022 um 14:36 schrieb ColinR:
> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most
>>>>>> future
>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>
>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG.
>>>>> The public
>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new
>>>>> MGs I've
>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>
>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over
>>>> the past
>>>> year.
>>>
>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>> friends
>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>
>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>
>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>
>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>> brand?
>>
>> From
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>
>>
>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>> pandemic, and
>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>
>>
>
> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
> order to delivery.
>
My Hyundai (Kona Electric) was announced with 6 months and I'll get it
next week after 4 months.

Am 16.04.2022 um 09:22 schrieb Roland Perry:

> "No Entry [except cycles]" has long been a bone of contention with the
> DfT, who used to claim every individual instance required special
> permission. When I first encountered this one, I was fairly sure it was
> rogue: https://goo.gl/maps/2AxMzBQ8h9WA2NpL8 not sure whether the lack
> of matching exception the other side of the road compounds the felony.

Interesting. In Germany, the road law has progressed to the stage where
bicycles should be exempted from one-way regulations in town wherever
possible, so the number of "No Entry [except cycles]" now exceed the
normal "No Entry" signs.
<https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1002809270484404>

Rolf

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HSTs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>>>>>> starting at London)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
>>>>> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
>>>>> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
>>>>> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
>>>>> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
>>>>> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
>>>>> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
>>>>> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
>>>>> 800s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
>>>>> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
>>>>> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
>>>>> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
>>>>> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
>>>>> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
>>>> known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?
>>>
>>> I'd speculate that they ensured that the 802s didn't have the same specific
>>> weakness as Voyagers, but didn't fully consider all the other ways that sea
>>> water and spray could knock out a very complicated diesel-electric train.
>>> This would just have been just one consideration on a long list of
>>> potential issues with using trains designed for London-Bristol/Swansea on
>>> the west country routes.
>>>
>>> I don't suppose electric A-Trains run on that sort of route in Japan or
>>> anywhere else, so Hitachi didn't have relevant experience of all the things
>>> that can happen to a diesel-electric train in those salty, amphibious
>>> conditions.
>>
>> Can it really be that Japan has no stretches of line like Dawlish or
>> Saltcoats?
>
> I suspect not, not on an almost entirely electrified mainline network. I
> have been on DMUs there, but they tend to run on minor, privately operated
> branches. I think all A-Trains other than our IETs are electric.

<https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/130534089183830096/>
<https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/japanese-tourist-train-running-next-coast-797771422>
<https://www.visit-kyushu.com/en/plan-your-trip/getting-around/>

It’s entirely possible that none of these lines runs in bad weather, or the
climate and topography don’t make for big splashes, or the trains are
suitably weatherproofed, but the images suggest there’s at least a
possibility of there being the same kind of situation. Perhaps Anna or
someone else who’s been to Japan might have more info.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 09:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:24:27 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2022 14:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Water between bottom of railhead and top of railhead, 5mph.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Between top of sleepers and bottom of railhead, NR say linespeed, gWr say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20mph (143 150 769) 50mph (158 16x 387 57/Sleeper HST) or linespeed (IET).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why the difference between classes? Are some more waterproof than others?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ones which are 20mph, I think the problem is water ingress into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> axleboxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IETs, presumably modern sealed-unit traction motors and other electronics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow a less cautious approach.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What causes their problems when they get a minor salt water spray at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dawlish? They do seem to dry out and can be restarted after a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, other than that I think it's engine-module related rather
>>>>>>>>>>>> than traction motors etc.; the software 'fix' which has been partly
>>>>>>>>>>>> successful, apparently involves the on-board computer systems trying 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> times to restart the engines, rather than only three times in normal
>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Given it was known they were going to operate right next to the sea often in
>>>>>>>>>>> stormy weather it sounds like Hitachi didn't do their design or testing
>>>>>>>>>>> properly. Again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the original IETs were planned to run along that sea wall, so
>>>>>>>>>> Hitachi probably didn't take sea spray into account when designing them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Really? What were DfT expecting gWr to be using into Devon and Cornwall?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HSTs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But they were expected to go eventually weren’t they? (I mean services
>>>>>>> starting at London)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but the DfT's original IET contract was part of the GWR
>>>>>> electrification project. The train was intended to take advantage of the
>>>>>> fully electrified (801) or mainly-electrified (800) routes, with
>>>>>> HST-matching/beating performance only required on electrified sections.
>>>>>> Diesel operation of the 800s was only intended on short, slower
>>>>>> non-electrified sections. So the train was simply not intended or designed
>>>>>> for the Devon and Cornwall routes. Later, when the scope of the
>>>>>> electrification was curtailed, the 801s were cancelled, replaced by more
>>>>>> 800s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later, GWR ordered 802s (with better diesel performance) to replace its
>>>>>> remaining HSTs (instead of life-extending them or ordering some other
>>>>>> diesel train), under a different contract, with more power allowed from the
>>>>>> same donks. But it would appear that while Hitachi focused on matching HST
>>>>>> performance on diesel, it didn't (or wasn't asked to) also consider how to
>>>>>> resist the sea spray on the west country routes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So when the 802s were ordered nobody considered Dawlish? Wasn’t it well
>>>>> known by then that Voyagers (I think it was they) came to grief at Dawlish?
>>>>
>>>> I'd speculate that they ensured that the 802s didn't have the same specific
>>>> weakness as Voyagers, but didn't fully consider all the other ways that sea
>>>> water and spray could knock out a very complicated diesel-electric train.
>>>> This would just have been just one consideration on a long list of
>>>> potential issues with using trains designed for London-Bristol/Swansea on
>>>> the west country routes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't suppose electric A-Trains run on that sort of route in Japan or
>>>> anywhere else, so Hitachi didn't have relevant experience of all the things
>>>> that can happen to a diesel-electric train in those salty, amphibious
>>>> conditions.
>>>
>>> Can it really be that Japan has no stretches of line like Dawlish or
>>> Saltcoats?
>>
>> I suspect not, not on an almost entirely electrified mainline network. I
>> have been on DMUs there, but they tend to run on minor, privately operated
>> branches. I think all A-Trains other than our IETs are electric.
>
><https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/130534089183830096/>
><https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/japanese-tourist-train-running-next-coast-797771422>
><https://www.visit-kyushu.com/en/plan-your-trip/getting-around/>
>
>It’s entirely possible that none of these lines runs in bad weather, or the
>climate and topography don’t make for big splashes, or the trains are
>suitably weatherproofed, but the images suggest there’s at least a
>possibility of there being the same kind of situation. Perhaps Anna or
>someone else who’s been to Japan might have more info.

And here's one of mine, taken from a JR Resort Umineko DMU:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26817855942/in/album-72157667934392911/>

It's a scenic, single-track, non-electrified route, with special tourist trains with seats that swivel 45° for the best
view out:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26817853792/in/album-72157667934392911/>

They have a special back-seat driver bench seat at the front, beside the driver:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26817852002/in/album-72157667934392911/>

On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>
>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>
>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>> year.
>>
>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>> who follow the same path.
>>
>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>> small Suzuki one).
>>
>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>
> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
> brand?
>
> From
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>
> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the pandemic, and
> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>
>
I know somebody in United States, who wanted to buy a new automobile. He
went to the dealer, explained what he was after as well as indicated his
budget, thinking that it would be along in a few weeks.

The dealer said fine, not a problem, we can do that for you, etc, and
that it would be ready in six months.

The buying party was surprised and said that he did not even know if he
would even want the vehicle after such a wait. The dealer said that the
buyer would have first refusal, that he could come out and try the car
and take it at the locked-in price with no obligation as the vehicle
would be off the lot by lunchtime on the day of delivery in any event.

On 18/04/2022 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most
>>>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>> MG. The public
>>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of
>>>>>>>> new MGs I've
>>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers.
>>>>>> None of
>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute
>>>>>> drive from
>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary
>>>>>> drive past
>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>>> brand?
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a
>>>>> year
>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>> pandemic, and
>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>>> order to delivery.
>>>
>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>
>>
>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>> guess by the dealer.
>>
>
> And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…
>

I imagine these long lead times on contemporary vehicles are giving
quite a boost to prices on the secondhand market.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most
>>>>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>>> MG. The public
>>>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of
>>>>>>>>> new MGs I've
>>>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones
>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers.
>>>>>>> None of
>>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute
>>>>>>> drive from
>>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary
>>>>>>> drive past
>>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>>>> brand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a
>>>>>> year
>>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>>> pandemic, and
>>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>>>> order to delivery.
>>>>
>>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>> guess by the dealer.
>>>
>>
>> And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…
>>
>
> I imagine these long lead times on contemporary vehicles are giving
> quite a boost to prices on the secondhand market.
>

They have. In fact, cars under a year old have a resale value of more than
list price.