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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

SubjectAuthor
* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption asmartin.coffee
`* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weatherRecliner
 `* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption asmartin.coffee
  +- Train companies pay millions for Covid and weatherRecliner
  `* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increaseRoland Perry
   `* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weatherRecliner
    `* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increaseRoland Perry
     +- Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increaseRecliner
     `* Train companies pay millions for Covid and weatherTweed
      `- Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increaseRoland Perry

1
Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<t3je7l$unh$1@dont-email.me>

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as
claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:23:49 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:23 UTC

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-companies-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/

I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<t3jel2$1pe$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather
disruption as claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:30:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:30 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-companies-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>
> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>

TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as
claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:34:34 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:34 UTC

On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-companies-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>
>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>
>
> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>
The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
passed on to the passengers delayed.

Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<t3jfkr$85c$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather
disruption as claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:47:55 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:47 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-companies-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>
>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>
>>
>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>
> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>
> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>
>

Let me repeat my questions, with helpful explanations:

TOCs making a profit??? How on earth do you think could any TOC (not ToC)
have made a profit in the period in question?

How? The TOCs are all making huge losses, not profits. Paying compensation
to passengers, reimbursed by NR, will not affect that. How does it matter
how funds are shunted between nationalised companies?

For whom? Even if a TOC miraculously made a profit in some accounting
period, who do you think gets it?

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<KgKn+MElwVXiFApA@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:40:05 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 12:40 UTC

In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>
>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>
>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>
>The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>passed on to the passengers delayed.
>
>Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.

Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.

*Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<t3jvvp$vmi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather
disruption as claims increase
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:26:49 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:26 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>> es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>>
>>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>>
>>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>>
>> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>>
>> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>
> Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
> centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
> more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.
>
> *Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.

Sure, but it's just one DfT account transferring funds to another (OK, I
know it's other government departments in Scotland and Wales, but there's
no private sector operators pocketing the notional 'profit').

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<8LhaECbI1pXiFAMG@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:30:16 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:30 UTC

In message <t3jvvp$vmi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:26:49 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>>> es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>>>
>>>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>>>
>>> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>>> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>>> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>>>
>>> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>>
>> Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
>> centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
>> more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.
>>
>> *Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.
>
>Sure, but it's just one DfT account transferring funds to another (OK, I
>know it's other government departments in Scotland and Wales, but there's
>no private sector operators pocketing the notional 'profit').

It'll all settle down eventually, but perhaps not in the way we hope. I
expect to see a dilution of the compensation paid to long-suffering
passengers.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<2b8t5h9ott9fcmnhou9qniv59vkaiu0lqd@4ax.com>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:48 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:30:16 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t3jvvp$vmi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:26:49 on Mon, 18 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>>>> es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>>>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>>>>
>>>> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>>>> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>>>> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>>>
>>> Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
>>> centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
>>> more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.
>>>
>>> *Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.
>>
>>Sure, but it's just one DfT account transferring funds to another (OK, I
>>know it's other government departments in Scotland and Wales, but there's
>>no private sector operators pocketing the notional 'profit').
>
>It'll all settle down eventually, but perhaps not in the way we hope. I
>expect to see a dilution of the compensation paid to long-suffering
>passengers.

Yes, very likely, just as there was no compensation paid for useless railcards once Covid struck.

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather
disruption as claims increase
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:12:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:12 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3jvvp$vmi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:26:49 on Mon, 18 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>>>> es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>>>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>>>>
>>>> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>>>> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>>>> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>>>
>>> Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
>>> centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
>>> more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.
>>>
>>> *Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.
>>
>> Sure, but it's just one DfT account transferring funds to another (OK, I
>> know it's other government departments in Scotland and Wales, but there's
>> no private sector operators pocketing the notional 'profit').
>
> It'll all settle down eventually, but perhaps not in the way we hope. I
> expect to see a dilution of the compensation paid to long-suffering
> passengers.

The problem with this wooden dollars internal compensation system is that
it doesn’t really lead to solving the problems. Instead you get “it doesn’t
matter as they will get compensated”. The money NR pays out will ultimately
come from the Treasury, or worse will come out of existing budgets and thus
slow down maintenance and improvements. I very much doubt that anyone’s
take home pay is affected by the amount of compensation paid out.

Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase

<$ZY6QAetmqXiFAco@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28306&group=uk.railway#28306

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Train companies pay millions for Covid and weather disruption as claims increase
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 13:23:09 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:23 UTC

In message <t3m902$2rg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:12:50 on Tue, 19 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3jvvp$vmi$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:26:49 on Mon, 18 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3jerq$1og$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:34:34 on Mon, 18 Apr
>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> On 18/04/2022 11:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2022/04/18/train-compani
>>>>>>> es-pay-millions-for-covid-and-weather-disruption-as-claims-increase/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought Network Rail paid compensation to the ToCs for most weather
>>>>>>> related delays allowing the latter to make a profit out of them as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> TOCs making a profit??? How? For whom?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The ToCs get compensation from Network Rail for delays caused by them
>>>>> such as weather problems and cows on the track. Not all of that is
>>>>> passed on to the passengers delayed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore ToCs make a profit on the delays.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly! While they might not be making an *overall* profit, the cost
>>>> centre which is delay receipts and payments could easily be receiving
>>>> more from Network Rail (and other TOCs) than it pays out to passengers.
>>>>
>>>> *Especially* if the affected trains are very lightly loaded.
>>>
>>> Sure, but it's just one DfT account transferring funds to another (OK, I
>>> know it's other government departments in Scotland and Wales, but there's
>>> no private sector operators pocketing the notional 'profit').
>>
>> It'll all settle down eventually, but perhaps not in the way we hope. I
>> expect to see a dilution of the compensation paid to long-suffering
>> passengers.
>
>The problem with this wooden dollars internal compensation system is
>that it doesn’t really lead to solving the problems. Instead you get
>“it doesn’t matter as they will get compensated”. The money NR
>pays out will ultimately come from the Treasury, or worse will come out
>existing budgets and thus slow down maintenance and improvements. I
>very much doubt that anyone’s take home pay is affected by the amount
>of compensation paid out.

Inside the industry it probably doesn't have much of an incentive (other
than the mysteriously large number of trains that seem to end up 29
minutes later rather than 31 minutes).

For passengers, the delays/cancellations can have *significant*
collateral damage, and some suspect that the schemes are to dissuade
people from making claims for actual consequential losses.

Although there was a blip a couple of years ago when some commentators
suggested there was a possibility of claiming for those, but I've not
seen any success stories published.
--
Roland Perry

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