Am 19.04.2022 um 16:54 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
> On 18/04/2022 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>
>>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>> guess by the dealer.
>>
>> And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…
>
> I imagine these long lead times on contemporary vehicles are giving
> quite a boost to prices on the secondhand market.

When the Mercedes W123 entered the market in 1975, it had a lead time on
the order of 15 to 18 months.
Employees (who pre-ordered and got a serious discount) were able to sell
their 11-month old cars to car dealers around list price.

I vaguely remember some guy from Northern Germany in our sitting room
with a suitcase full of cash (must have been close to 20k DM then for a
200D) when I was 5 or 6 years old.

The year after that, we took a holiday at my godmother's near Kiel to
sell our next car (at a more realistic price).

Rolf

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most
>>>>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>>> MG. The public
>>>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of
>>>>>>>>> new MGs I've
>>>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones
>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers.
>>>>>>> None of
>>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute
>>>>>>> drive from
>>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary
>>>>>>> drive past
>>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>>>> brand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a
>>>>>> year
>>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>>> pandemic, and
>>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>>>> order to delivery.
>>>>
>>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>> guess by the dealer.
>>>
>>
>> And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…
>>
>
> I imagine these long lead times on contemporary vehicles are giving
> quite a boost to prices on the secondhand market.

When the Range Rover first appeared, at a list price of something like
£1,997, there was a substantial waiting list. It was rumoured that if you
got one you could immediately resell it at 50-100% above list.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 18/04/2022 14:03, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most
>>>>>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>>>> MG. The public
>>>>>>>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of
>>>>>>>>>> new MGs I've
>>>>>>>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones
>>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers.
>>>>>>>> None of
>>>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute
>>>>>>>> drive from
>>>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary
>>>>>>>> drive past
>>>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent.
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>>>>> brand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a
>>>>>>> year
>>>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>>>> pandemic, and
>>>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>>>>> order to delivery.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>>> guess by the dealer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And we used to joke about Trabant and Moskvitch lead times…
>>>
>>
>> I imagine these long lead times on contemporary vehicles are giving
>> quite a boost to prices on the secondhand market.
>
> When the Range Rover first appeared, at a list price of something like
> £1,997, there was a substantial waiting list. It was rumoured that if you
> got one you could immediately resell it at 50-100% above list.
>

What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
manufacturer.

Manufacturers are obviously prioritising their most profitable products
when allocating chips. For example, VW's German car factories are on short
time, but its British factory is running flat out.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
> manufacturer.
>
Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
“component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
currency.
Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
traps.

GH

On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>> manufacturer.
>>
> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
> currency.
> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
> traps.
>
> GH

Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
furnaces?

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>> manufacturer.
>>
> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
> currency.

Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only? Surely US autos
were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to mass-producing
autos?

> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
> traps.
>

I believe lots of ancient Hindustan Ambassadors are kept running
indefinitely in India because they're mechanically simple, with all
replacement parts readily available, don't rust in that hot climate, and
easily repaired by roadside mechanics. I don't think India has an MoT
equivalent. Who would have expected the dowdy 1954 Morris Oxford to be
almost immortal?

Are there any places, I guess primarily in Europe, where a tram network
will have fast trams? Tram-trains don't count.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>> currency.
>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>> traps.
>>
>> GH
>
> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
> furnaces?
>

I'm sure military lorries would have been sold for civilian use after the
war, and probably staff cars and motorbikes as well. But most military
vehicles probably didn't have a civilian use.

Incidentally, there was no MoD back then. It was the War Office until as
recently as 1964.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Are there any places, I guess primarily in Europe, where a tram network
> will have fast trams? Tram-trains don't count.
>

Do you mean high speed trams (ie, 100 km/h or more), or normal trams
running non-stop on bypass lines?

On 20/04/2022 00:12, Recliner wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>> currency.
>
> Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only? Surely US autos
> were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to mass-producing
> autos?

I imagine that it would also take a while for the US auto industry, as
producers of blanks and steel plants would have to recalibrate their
operations back. Perhaps it did not take as long, however?

>
>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>> traps.
>>
>
> I believe lots of ancient Hindustan Ambassadors are kept running
> indefinitely in India because they're mechanically simple, with all
> replacement parts readily available, don't rust in that hot climate, and
> easily repaired by roadside mechanics. I don't think India has an MoT
> equivalent. Who would have expected the dowdy 1954 Morris Oxford to be
> almost immortal?

Not good for the auto sector, I would think, as orders could stagnate.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>
>>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>>> currency.
>>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>>> traps.
>>>
>>> GH
>>
>> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
>> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
>> furnaces?
>>
>
>I'm sure military lorries would have been sold for civilian use after the
>war, and probably staff cars and motorbikes as well. But most military
>vehicles probably didn't have a civilian use.
>
>Incidentally, there was no MoD back then. It was the War Office until as
>recently as 1964.
>
Sold-off military vehicles were used to start many post-war transport
businesses.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 00:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>
>>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>>> currency.
>>
>> Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only? Surely US autos
>> were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to mass-producing
>> autos?
>
> I imagine that it would also take a while for the US auto industry, as
> producers of blanks and steel plants would have to recalibrate their
> operations back. Perhaps it did not take as long, however?

Far quicker in the US than here.

>
>>
>>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>>> traps.
>>>
>>
>> I believe lots of ancient Hindustan Ambassadors are kept running
>> indefinitely in India because they're mechanically simple, with all
>> replacement parts readily available, don't rust in that hot climate, and
>> easily repaired by roadside mechanics. I don't think India has an MoT
>> equivalent. Who would have expected the dowdy 1954 Morris Oxford to be
>> almost immortal?
>
> Not good for the auto sector, I would think, as orders could stagnate.

India has huge demand for cars, as millions enter the aspiring middle
class. Any who could afford one would much rather have a modern,
air-conditioned Japanese model, not a cruddy sixth-hand Ambassador. But
those veterans provide affordable motoring for poorer people.

Next time you get a call from an Indian spammer, ask him what car he
drives, or hopes to buy. It won't be an elderly Ambassador.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>>
>>>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>>>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>>>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>>>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>>>> currency.
>>>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>>>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>>>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>>>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>>>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>>>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>>>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>>>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>>>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>>>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>>>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>>>> traps.
>>>>
>>>> GH
>>>
>>> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
>>> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
>>> furnaces?
>>>
>>
>> I'm sure military lorries would have been sold for civilian use after the
>> war, and probably staff cars and motorbikes as well. But most military
>> vehicles probably didn't have a civilian use.
>>
>> Incidentally, there was no MoD back then. It was the War Office until as
>> recently as 1964.
>>
> Sold-off military vehicles were used to start many post-war transport
> businesses.
>

Yes, very much so.

On 20/04/2022 00:20, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Are there any places, I guess primarily in Europe, where a tram network
>> will have fast trams? Tram-trains don't count.
>>
>
> Do you mean high speed trams (ie, 100 km/h or more), or normal trams
> running non-stop on bypass lines?
>
The latter.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>> currency.
>
> Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only? Surely US autos
> were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to mass-producing
> autos?
>

It was the UK situation I knew about. Britain because of the war dept and
the need to replace war damaged housing and factories needed to start
earning from exports urgently so it was government policy to prioritise
production for export.
As you note in the US their industry was already set up to provide for the
American dream and economically their population was in a far better place
to afford it. It wasn’t just Automobiles,
domestic equipment like fridges and washing machines were becoming mass
market items ,in Britain they would remain a luxury item for many years.
The human casualties the US suffered in WW2 should not be demeaned but it
gave their industries a boost following the depression of the 1930’s that
gave an abundant lifestyle for those who survived
and their children.

Rest of the world I don’t really know too much about, what had been the
British Empire was still buying British or from local factories but the US
was in a far better position to start competing where
Britain could not supply enough to meet demand and with more modern
vehicles.

GH

On 20/04/2022 00:12, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production
>>> in the
>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>> Though it  once happened before most readers of this group were born
>> when
>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>> largely directed  to  the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>> currency.
>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade
>> away
>> enough ordinary  people found they could run one having been taught to
>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any
>> second
>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for
>> their age
>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles
>> were
>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills  meant they were kept
>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>> traps.
>>
>> GH
>
> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
> furnaces?

Many logistics companies started up with ex WD lorries bought cheap.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 20/04/2022 00:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>> currency.
> Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only? Surely US autos
> were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to mass-producing
> autos?
>

UK

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 20/04/2022 00:18, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production in the
>>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>
>>> Though it once happened before most readers of this group were born when
>>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were built
>>> largely directed to the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>>> currency.
>>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a decade away
>>> enough ordinary people found they could run one having been taught to
>>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any second
>>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that were
>>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for their age
>>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles whose
>>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles were
>>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills meant they were kept
>>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>>> traps.
>>>
>>> GH
>>
>> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
>> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
>> furnaces?
>>
>
> I'm sure military lorries would have been sold for civilian use after the
> war, and probably staff cars and motorbikes as well. But most military
> vehicles probably didn't have a civilian use.

Actually, in terms of numbers, the number of military vehicles not
suitable for civilian use would be relatively small, tanks and other
armed and armoured vehicles being a minority.

One of the reasons the BEF managed to get back to Dunkirk and away from
France was that while the German armoured divisions could move fast,
their logistics train was still mainly horse-drawn and couldn't keep up.
The BEF was actually better off in the terms of provision of mechanised
transport.

>
> Incidentally, there was no MoD back then. It was the War Office until as
> recently as 1964.
>

Yup

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 20/04/2022 00:20, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 00:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What's very unusual currently is that it applies to all cars, cheap or
>>>> expensive, fashionable or not. Normally, there's surplus production
>>>> in the
>>>> auto industry, with most manufacturers scrambling for sales. I've never
>>>> known a time when a shortage of one class of component hit every
>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>
>>> Though it  once happened before most readers of this group were born
>>> when
>>> there was a similar shortage of new vehicles post WW2 with the main
>>> “component” being the steel to build them with, and those that were
>>> built
>>> largely directed  to  the export market to earn badly needed foreign
>>> currency.
>>
>> Was that worldwide, like the current crisis, or UK-only?  Surely US autos
>> were produced in high volumes, as war factories returned to
>> mass-producing
>> autos?
>
> I imagine that it would also take a while for the US auto industry, as
> producers of blanks and steel plants would have to recalibrate their
> operations back. Perhaps it did not take as long, however?
>
>>
>>> Another factor was although mass car ownership was still over a
>>> decade away
>>> enough ordinary  people found they could run one having been taught to
>>> drive and maintain vehicles in the forces to increase demand for any
>>> second
>>> hand vehicle that was available that could move. Many were cars that
>>> were
>>> already 10 to 25 years old that had seen little or no use during the war
>>> years do to petrol rationing etc so had relatively low milage for
>>> their age
>>> so commanded prices higher than that would normally have justified.
>>> No MOT check until introduced in 1960 so some of these old vehicles
>>> whose
>>> mechanicals though they did not have the longevity of modern vehicles
>>> were
>>> easy repaired with a good toolkit and basic skills  meant they were kept
>>> going far too long as the chassis and bodies corroded making them death
>>> traps.
>>>
>>
>> I believe lots of ancient Hindustan Ambassadors are kept running
>> indefinitely in India because they're mechanically simple, with all
>> replacement parts readily available, don't rust in that hot climate, and
>> easily repaired by roadside mechanics. I don't think India has an MoT
>> equivalent.  Who would have expected the dowdy 1954 Morris Oxford to be
>> almost immortal?
>
> Not good for the auto sector, I would think, as orders could stagnate.
>

See Cuba!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 00:12, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>
>>
>> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
>> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
>> furnaces?
>
> Many logistics companies started up with ex WD lorries bought cheap.
>

Though the wartime vehicles had almost all disappeared from public roads by
the 1970’s
I still used to see quite a lot AEC crane vehicles in use in scrapyards
forestry work etc.
The introduction of the MOT had seen off many older vehicles from the
early 1960’s and also by that
time British manufacturers had got under way again with new designs like
the Mini and Cortina.
Though most had introduced new models in 1950’s as shortages eased they
were largely new bodies
still using mechanicals derived from 1930’s production with performance
rapidly being eclipsed.

GH

In message <t3jhah$jp2$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:16:33 on Mon, 18 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope, finally, to
>>>>
>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join MG. The public
>>>> (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count the number of new MGs I've
>>>> seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>
>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models over the past
>>> year.
>>
>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>> who follow the same path.
>>
>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>> small Suzuki one).
>>
>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>
>Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>brand?

Perhaps because their website, and in fact availability, was previously
only Peugeot, Honda and VW for medium sized cars, plus Nissan and Ford
for bigger ones.
--
Roland Perry

In message <jvpq5hlhlv2dbjl79l32c3hmqcka7nq7q6@4ax.com>, at 14:30:57 on
Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:03:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>><rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on Mon, 18
>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and most future
>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>>finally, to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>>MG. The public (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count
>>>>>>>>the number of new MGs I've seen on the roads in the last few years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>>over the past
>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones I have
>>>>>>> seen are mainly the comfortably retired , influence a circle of friends
>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers. None of
>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute drive from
>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary drive past
>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a very
>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some extent. And
>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of new
>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot 308,
>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's best-selling
>>>>> brand?
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef631
>>>>>9ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>
>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to a year
>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South Korean
>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>>pandemic, and
>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>
>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months from
>>>> order to delivery.
>>>
>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>
>>Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>guess by the dealer.
>
>I suppose it's a bad sign if any particular makes are available with
>fast deliveries these days!

That Kia garage has loads of them lined up outside, or perhaps they are
already sold? Or people are fussier about the exact specification.
--
Roland Perry

Am 20.04.2022 um 02:04 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
> On 20/04/2022 00:20, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Are there any places, I guess primarily in Europe, where a tram network
>>> will have fast trams? Tram-trains don't count.
>>
>> Do you mean high speed trams (ie, 100 km/h or more), or normal trams
>> running non-stop on bypass lines?
>>
> The latter.

The Mannheim area, according to most definitions (the question is how
exactly you wish to distinguish trams from Tram-trains in the 1000mm gague).
<https://www.rnv-online.de/media/rnv-online.de/Fahrtinfo/Liniennetzplaene/regulaer/Liniennetzplan_MA-LU_regulaer.pdf>

The peak hour Line 8EX from Rheinau to Hauptbahnhof (to Ludwigshafen
Oppau/ BASF once the Rhine bridge will re-open) runs along the standard
lines 1 (and 7 in Ludwigshafen) while skipping about half of the stops.

The Sunday line 9EX runs from Heidelberg via Mannheim and Ludwigshafen
to Bad Dürkheim., along the usual lines 5 and 4. The routes of 4 and 5
allow max speeds of 80 km/h where they have their own trackbed

Rolf

On 20/04/2022 10:28, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <jvpq5hlhlv2dbjl79l32c3hmqcka7nq7q6@4ax.com>, at 14:30:57 on
> Mon, 18 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:03:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:36:49 +0100, ColinR
>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/04/2022 12:16, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <jc4m6iFjipqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:35:30 on
>>>>>>> Mon, 18
>>>>>>> Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus seems to be on firmer, Chinese, foundations now, and
>>>>>>>>>> most future
>>>>>>>>>> Lotus cars will be made in Wuhan (yes, that one). They hope,
>>>>>>>>>> finally, to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wuhan? Oh well, thats another British marque gone off to join
>>>>>>>>> MG. The public  (in britain at least) arn't fooled. I can count
>>>>>>>>> the number of new MGs I've  seen on the roads in the last few
>>>>>>>>> years on 2 hands.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beginning to see a reasonable number of their electric models
>>>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That could be a local phenomenon where one couple , and the ones
>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>> seen are mainly  the comfortably retired , influence a circle of
>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>> who follow the same path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it's also affected by the proximity of main dealers.
>>>>>>> None of
>>>>>>> the traditional big brands are represented within a 40 minute
>>>>>>> drive from
>>>>>>> here, and even then they are clustered so you'd not necessary
>>>>>>> drive past
>>>>>>> them very often. But we have a quite large Kia dealership (and a
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> small Suzuki one).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't help feeling this must skew the local market to some
>>>>>>> extent. And
>>>>>>> the other day I saw one of the hire-car firms had a whole load of
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> Kias parked outside, rather than their traditional ones (Peugeot
>>>>>>> 308,
>>>>>>> Honda Civic, VW Golf).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, why wouldn't they have loads of cars from Britain's
>>>>>> best-selling
>>>>>> brand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/22f2612e-be63-11ec-8413-422ef631
>>>>>> 9ad0?shareToken=aaa44dcd4c93fda39ae0e570f2b41905>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While some motorists complain of being on a waiting list of up to
>>>>>> a year
>>>>>> for some models, this is not not true for all brands. The South
>>>>>> Korean
>>>>>> manufacturer Kia has for example shrugged off the global shortage of
>>>>>> semiconductors to become Britain’s best-selling brand, overtaking
>>>>>> Volkswagen which had become the UK’s market leader during the
>>>>>> pandemic, and
>>>>>> Ford which had held that position for the preceding five decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Kia still have long waiting times - mine took all but 6 months
>>>>> from
>>>>> order to delivery.
>>>>
>>>> I have a friend who ordered a Kia EV6 in January, expecting delivery by
>>>> July. It's now expected in December.
>>>
>>> Humble Fords are on to 9 to 12 month lead times, and that’s just a best
>>> guess by the dealer.
>>
>> I suppose it's a bad sign if any particular makes are available with
>> fast deliveries these days!
>
> That Kia garage has loads of them lined up outside, or perhaps they are
> already sold? Or people are fussier about the exact specification.

Unregistered cars? Suspect not, they are likely to be trade-ins etc as
most, if not all, Kia's are on long waiting times.

--
Colin

On 20/04/2022 09:25, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/04/2022 00:12, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 23:54, Marland wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Did MoD try to sell any suitable old vehicles to the civilian market
>>> after the war or did they all wind up as ferrous scrap for open-hearth
>>> furnaces?
>>
>> Many logistics companies started up with ex WD lorries bought cheap.
>>
>
> Though the wartime vehicles had almost all disappeared from public roads by
> the 1970’s
> I still used to see quite a lot AEC crane vehicles in use in scrapyards
> forestry work etc.
> The introduction of the MOT had seen off many older vehicles from the
> early 1960’s and also by that
> time British manufacturers had got under way again with new designs like
> the Mini and Cortina.
> Though most had introduced new models in 1950’s as shortages eased they
> were largely new bodies
> still using mechanicals derived from 1930’s production with performance
> rapidly being eclipsed.
>

The mini was probably the first British car to completely break away
from the traditional method of construction.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.