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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

SubjectAuthor
* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
| +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Mark Goodge
| |+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
| ||`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Mark Goodge
| || +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"nib
| || |+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
| || |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Bob
| || | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
| || | |+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Bob
| || | |+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| || | |+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Arthur Figgis
| || | ||`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Matthew Geier
| || | |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"MB
| || | | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Certes
| || | |  +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| || | |  +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Arthur Figgis
| || | |  |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| || | |  | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Arthur Figgis
| || | |  |  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| || | |  |   `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
| || | |  `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Sam Wilson
| || | `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Marland
| || +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
| || `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||   `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||    +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||    |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||    | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||    |  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||    |   +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||    |   |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||    |   | `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||    |   `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Certes
| ||    `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
| ||     +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
| ||     +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| ||     |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
| ||     | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
| ||     |  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
| ||     |   `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
| ||     `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Jeremy Double
| ||      +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
| ||      |`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Jeremy Double
| ||      `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
| ||       +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Marland
| ||       |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||       | `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| ||       +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Jeremy Double
| ||       `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
| ||        `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
| |`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
| `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Bevan Price
+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
|+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
| `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|   `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"JGD
|    |+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    ||`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
|    | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Sam Wilson
|    | | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Sam Wilson
|    | | | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
|    | | |   +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"mechanic
|    | | |   | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
|    | | |   | | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Marland
|    | | |   | | |`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
|    | | |   | |  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|    | | |   | |   `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |    `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
|    | | |   | |     +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |     |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
|    | | |   | |     | `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |     +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |     |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
|    | | |   | |     | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |     |  `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |     `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"mechanic
|    | | |   | |      `- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Tweed
|    | | |   | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
|    | | |   | ||+* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |||`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
|    | | |   | ||| `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |||  +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
|    | | |   | |||  |+- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |||  |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |||  | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |||  | |`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | | |   | |||  | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Anna Noyd-Dryver
|    | | |   | |||  +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Certes
|    | | |   | |||  +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
|    | | |   | |||  +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
|    | | |   | |||  `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"mechanic
|    | | |   | ||`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Sam Wilson
|    | | |   | |`* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Charles Ellson
|    | | |   | +- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Bob
|    | | |   | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
|    | | |   `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Sam Wilson
|    | | +* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"martin.coffee
|    | | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Roland Perry
|    | `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Graeme Wall
|    `* "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Recliner
`- "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"Robert

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Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

<t1v37n$c82$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26750&group=uk.railway#26750

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/03/2022 22:55, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 28/03/2022 11:15, Recliner wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The railways need to catch up with the idea leisure journeys not
>>>>>> make a
>>>>>> much higher proportion of their passengers.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, on this basis, how would you schedule essential engineering
>>>>> works?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd put the week/two week blockades into a boring bit of the calendar
>>>> when
>>>> mostly commuters will be travelling (who will put up with it and come
>>>> back), rather than across Christmas/Easter/Half Term.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't that how major works are increasingly being scheduled these
>>> days?  It
>>> also cuts costs and makes the work more predictable doing it that way.
>>>
>> Bristol Temple Meads was virtually closed throughout the school summer
>> holidays last year.
>>
>> I would suggest this caused inconvenience to the maximum possible
>> numbers of long distance travellers passing through Bristol.  I'm sure
>> any other time of the year would reduce that impact.  January and
>> February seems far more sensible to me.
>>
>>
>
> Whilst winter may be better from a pax point of view, depending on the
> works to be done, winter is far worse - dark, wet, snow, ice etc.
>

Plenty of other big works are done over Christmas and New Year, pretty much
the definition of winter.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=26757&group=uk.railway#26757

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:05:41 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <t1v37n$c82$2@dont-email.me>
 by: ColinR - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:05 UTC

On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/03/2022 22:55, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 28/03/2022 11:15, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The railways need to catch up with the idea leisure journeys not
>>>>>>> make a
>>>>>>> much higher proportion of their passengers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, on this basis, how would you schedule essential engineering
>>>>>> works?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd put the week/two week blockades into a boring bit of the calendar
>>>>> when
>>>>> mostly commuters will be travelling (who will put up with it and come
>>>>> back), rather than across Christmas/Easter/Half Term.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that how major works are increasingly being scheduled these
>>>> days?  It
>>>> also cuts costs and makes the work more predictable doing it that way.
>>>>
>>> Bristol Temple Meads was virtually closed throughout the school summer
>>> holidays last year.
>>>
>>> I would suggest this caused inconvenience to the maximum possible
>>> numbers of long distance travellers passing through Bristol.  I'm sure
>>> any other time of the year would reduce that impact.  January and
>>> February seems far more sensible to me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Whilst winter may be better from a pax point of view, depending on the
>> works to be done, winter is far worse - dark, wet, snow, ice etc.
>>
>
> Plenty of other big works are done over Christmas and New Year, pretty much
> the definition of winter.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Agree, but would they not be of shorter duration in better weather?

--
Colin

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

<VNzwlqqdGzQiFAxm@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:19:41 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:19 UTC

In message <t1r85p$ncn$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:56:57 on Mon, 28 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <o3q04hphs3aftd8htn9mv2m30msg6dcdkr@4ax.com>, at 14:38:24 on
>> Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:33:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <S+NBJpiaByPiFA7N@perry.uk>, at 14:16:58 on Sat, 26 Mar 2022,
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I suspect the adverts must be for people in East London wanting to go to
>>>>> the seaside via Colchester.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, GA has sawn off the branch it's sitting on, as far as people
>>>>> here are concerned, with this news about Easter:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Railway lines between King's Lynn and London will be blocked
>>>>> this Easter bank holiday weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Works are taking place in the East of England, blocking lines
>>>>> through Cambridgeshire, Essex and Hertfordshire.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greater Anglia passengers are set to face a full line closure
>>>>> all weekend at Bishop's Stortford - between Cambridge and
>>>>> London Liverpool Street.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Easter Sunday (April 17), works are taking place on the line
>>>>> between Ely and King's Lynn.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will be no Great Northern or Greater Anglia trains to
>>>>> Littleport, Downham Market, Watlington or King's Lynn when the
>>>>> line is closed."
>>>>
>>>> The railways collectively doing warm-up today:
>>>>
>>>> Reduced service on ECML/GN/TL, crawling round the Hertford Loop.
>>>> Buses from Cambridge to Ely.
>>>> Buses from Peterborough to Ely.
>>>> Ally Pally to Welwyn Garden City bustituted, and separately WGC to
>>>> Stevenage and Hertford North to Stevenage (locals)
>>>>
>>>> It's enough to convince our jolly holiday makers (or even just "let's go
>>>> see mum on Mothers Day" to buy a car and never try to use a train ever
>>>> again.
>>>
>>> As always, you've only looked at your local TOCs.
>>
>> Actually I skimmed all[1] of them, but as the topic here is GA trying to
>> woo people back onto *their* trains, it makes perfect sense to see how
>> they are encouraging that in the field, in this region.
>>
>>> It turns out that other routes are disrupted, too, even Manchester
>>> Metrolink (the trams weren't serving Piccadilly yesterday).
>>
>> [1] I've left out the entries which are specific to one train.
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Beckenham Junction and Orpington until
>> approximately 12:30 on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services to / from Reigate on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Chichester and Havant all day and between
>> Chichester and Barnham early morning / late night on Sunday 27 March
>> panel
>>
>> Buses replace evening / morning trains between Polegate and Eastbourne /
>> Hastings / Ore on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended EMR service to from London St Pancras International late night
>> Saturday 26 and all day Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Birmingham New Street and Tame Bridge
>> Parkway via Aston on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Crianlarich and Fort Willam / Mallaig from
>> Saturday 19 to Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No trains between Rutherglen and Exhibition Centre via Glasgow Central
>> Low Level from Sunday 13 March to Sunday 8 May
>>
>> No morning trains before 09:00 between Princes Risborough and Denham
>> Golf Club on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended early morning services to / from London Bridge on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Amended services between Three Bridges and Purley on Sunday 27 March
>> More information on Amended services between Three Bridges and Purley on
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage and between
>> Cambridge and Ely on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services in the Luton area on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>> More information on Amended services in the Luton area on Saturday 26
>> and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services between Hertford North / Welwyn Garden City and
>> Moorgate on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended Hull trains service on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services on the East London Line on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Amended service between Richmond / Clapham Junction and Stratford on
>> Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Bridgend and Maesteg on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace evening trains between Hereford and Newport on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Hamilton Square and Hooton on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Birmingham Snow Hill and
>> Stratford-upon-Avon on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains to / from Northampton on Sunday 27 March panel
>>
>> Buses replace morning trains between Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway
>> on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Hounslow and Windsor & Eton Riverside /
>> Ascot / Addlestone on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains in the Petersfield area on Saturday 26 and Sunday
>> 27 March
>>
>> Amended early morning service to / from Westbury on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services to / from London Paddington on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended TransPennine Express services between Manchester Piccadilly and
>> Stalybridge on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No trains between Darlington and Redcar Central on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Tunbridge Wells and Battle on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Dover Priory and Ramsgate on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> No services via Strood and Gravesend on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No trains via Lea Bridge on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended evening / morning LNER services to / from Newcastle on Saturday
>> 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No Southern trains to / from London Victoria on Saturday 26 and Sunday
>> 27 March
>>
>> Reduced TfL Rail service to / from Hayes & Harlington on Sunday 27 March
>>
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Guildford and Redhill / Gatwick Airport on
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No trains to / from London Liverpool Street on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Cardiff Central / Port Talbot Parkway and
>> Swansea on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended morning trains in the Taunton / Bridgwater area on Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains before 09:30 between Reading and Basingstoke on
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace evening / morning trains to / from Burnham / Taplow on
>> Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended morning trains between Bedwyn and Newbury on Saturday 26 and
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended service to / from London Kings Cross on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa / Worcester
>> Foregate Street on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended trains between Doncaster and York on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
>> March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Southampton and Bournemouth on Saturday 26
>> and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Peterborough and Ely / Cambridge on Sunday
>> 27 March
>>
>> Amended service to / from Grays on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No c2c trains to / from London Liverpool Street on Saturday 26 and
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> No trains between Preston and Wigan / Manchester before 10:45 on Sunday
>> 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Manchester Piccadilly and Hadfield /
>> Glossop on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Middlesbrough and Hartlepool / Darlington
>> on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Buses replace trains between Doncaster and Goole on Saturday 26 and
>> Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended services between Stafford and Crewe on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended morning Avanti West Coast services to / from Liverpool Lime
>> Street on Sunday 27 March
>>
>> Amended trains in the Llandudno Junction / Bangor area on Saturday 26
>>
>> Amended services to / from Drumry from Sunday 23 January to Saturday 11
>> June
>
>When would you prefer railways to be maintained?


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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:56:46 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:56 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:40:28 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 28.03.2022 um 19:18 schrieb Charles Ellson:
>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:18:20 +0100, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:08:15 +0100, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:23:32 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:15:19 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:54:54 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> targer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
>>>>>>>>>>> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
>>>>>>>>>>> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
>>>>>>>>>>> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
>>>>>>>>>>> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
>>>>>>>>>>> presence to enable infection.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
>>>>>>>>>> airway?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your airway starts at your nose and mouth. Coughing and sneezing can
>>>>>>>>> cause a heavier and more concentrated stream of saliva than you get
>>>>>>>>> with an aerosol.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The virus can spread from an infected person?s mouth or nose in small
>>>>>>>>> liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe.
>>>>>>>>> Another person can then contract the virus when infectious particles
>>>>>>>>> that pass through the air are inhaled at short range (this is often
>>>>>>>>> called short-range aerosol or short-range airborne transmission) or if
>>>>>>>>> infectious particles come into direct contact with the eyes, nose, or
>>>>>>>>> mouth (droplet transmission)."
>>>>>>>>> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A mask wearer is presumably reasonably well protected against droplets
>>>>>>>> landing on their mouth or nostrils and then breathing in the particles. Is
>>>>>>>> there any evidence that the virus can be transmitted via the eyes?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your eyes drain internally to your nose via the nasolacrimal duct;
>>>>>>> infection via the eye itself is less common. Eye protection is
>>>>>>> standard kit for ambulance and first aid personnel dealing with
>>>>>>> potential COVID patients.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that precaution based on actual evidence of risk from Covid, or simple
>>>>>> (sensible) caution all infections?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eye and associated areas have been regarded as a viable route of
>>>>> infection for over a century :-
>>>>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/220430
>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing we do know is that a lot of the often misinformed
>>>>>> Covid precautions have at least protected against other illnesses in the
>>>>>> last two years. For example, all that hand sanitisng didn't do much to
>>>>>> block Covid but probably reduced food poisoning.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Without experimenting you have no proof for that. COVID was known to
>>>>> persist longer on non-absorbent surfaces (e.g. handrails, door handles
>>>>> etc.) while alcohol is efficient in destroying membranes that hold
>>>>> viruses together as well as being a long-proven general antiseptic.
>>>>
>>>> I'm asking what actual research has been done about how Covid is
>>>> spread. Or are they just assuming it's similar to other
>>>> diseases (when we know it's not)?
>>>>
>>> There is plenty of research material available but as a novel disease
>>> it is currently more heavily based on observation and experience.
>>>>
>>>>> Hand sanitising doesn't work when people don't practise it and I have
>>>>> been around long enough to see that there are plenty of people who are
>>>>> best described as selfish filthy bastards when it comes to considering
>>>>> community hygeine.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I agree that hand sanitising is good for public health, but just
>>>> question whether it does much to slow the spread
>>>> of Covid specifically. Has anyone done any actual research? They
>>>> certainly hadn't when the advice was first given.
>>>>
>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/897598/S0574_NERVTAG-EMG_paper_-_hand_hygiene_010720_Redacted.pdf
>>>
>>> Note that it can be inferred that standard door handles on
>>> manually-opened doors, supermarket trolley/basket handles etc. are an
>>> infection risk which simultaneous use of sanitisation should be
>>> effective against.
>>
>> Wait a second: "hand sanitation is effective in reducing respiratory
>> diseases". This is *not* research specific to COVID.
>>
>> My understanding is that in early 2020, hand hygiene was one of the
>> "obvious things to do that might reduce transmission" but that by
>> mid-2020 still there was no evigence of hand hygiene having an impact on
>> transmission of COVID.
>>
>> Out of the three known pathways of transmitting respiratory diseases
>> (smear infection via hand - eye or hand - mouth, droplet infection and
>> aerosol infection) it is clear that for COVID, the dominant way of
>> transmission is aerosol infection; it is not measurable whether smear
>> infection is relevant for 10% of the infections, for 0.1% of infections
>> or not at all.
>
> Thanks, that confirms what I suspected.
>
> Something noticeable in the UK is that the public authorities haven't
> updated their (incorrect) advice on Covid
> transmission, nor the list of Covid symptoms from the early days of the
> pandemic. The ZOE studies have shown how out of
> date these have become.
>
> For example, I had a shingles vaccination appointment recently, and got
> sent an on-line questionnaire about whether I
> was exhibiting any of what were obviously meant to be Covid symptoms. But
> they were all out of date, and not at all
> representative of the then-current Covid symptoms. It didn't even ask if
> I'd had a recent positive Covid test, nor
> request me to take a (free) LFT before showing up for the appointment. I
> wonder if it's any better in Germany?
>


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From: use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:23:27 +0100
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 by: Mark Goodge - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:23 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>. I think I still stand
>> by that remark that people divide into two groups, those that have had
>> Omicron and those that will get it. As far as I can see the only way of
>> avoiding that situation is a permanent lockdown. That’s clearly not
>> sustainable. Strangely enough, I’ve so far avoided it, though I’ve had a
>> nasty cold.
>>
>
>That nasty cold may well have been Omicron, even if you tested negative on
>LFTs…

Possibly, although if it's severe enough to be nastily symptomatic then
it's almost certainly enough to be picked up by a test. LFTs aren't any
worse per se at detecting Omicron than any other variant, it's just that
fully vaccinated people are more likely to have an asymptomatic or mild
infection that sneaks beneath the sensitivity threshold.

That said, a colleague who I spent some time in the pub with after a
council meeting last night emailed us all to say he'd tested positive
this morning despite having no symptoms. So now I'm wondering whether
I'll test positive as well over the next few days.

Mark

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:58:08 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:58 UTC

In message <Ne0GRXoAxwQiFAjw@perry.uk>, at 14:40:16 on Tue, 29 Mar 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>In message <jac4suFnbleU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:56:46 on Sun, 27
>Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
>>>> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
>>>> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>>>>
>>>
>>> How many guards actually check tickets on routes with gated stations these
>>> days? Don't they just hide in the back cab?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>They did a check on the Waterloo-Salisbury service I used last weekend.
>>
>>Which leads me to a little grumble , there was a queue to get through the
>>ticket barriers at Salisbury,
>>why ? Because a load of people with their travel tickets held
>>electronically on their smartphones did not seem to know how to operate the
>>damn things so the gates could accept them, some silly bints were doing a
>>version of the supermarket purse surprise when they found they had to
>>retrieve them from bags or pockets at the moment they were required rather
>>than being prepared before , fortunately the station staff person opened
>>the side gate and let those of us with a normal ticket pass
>>while giving them a quick glance to clear the backlog.
>
>Queues at barriers are not particularly unusual. At KGX suburban
>(platforms 9-10 now) when a departure is announced the typical 10
>minutes before, it could be ten-deep cross a dozen gates.
>
>Meanwhile back in Ely (sorry folks) there's just one doorway from
>platform to ticket office, and another one doorway to the outside
>world, and just people filtering through off a train from
>London/Cambridge could take several minutes. Woe betide anyone trying
>to get *to* the platform after a train had just arrived.
>
>They are currently in the middle of a refurbishment, which will be
>adding ticket gates (we'll have to see what they do about platform
>tickets), and hope they've sized it appropriately. I haven't been to
>look since they started about a month ago, but at some places like
>Grantham, they increase the flow by having a pig-pen of gates using up
>some of the ample platform space.

Update: I've found the plans, and they are dividing the quite small
ticket office area (about 50% bigger than the current one) into
"airside" and "landside", with five gates in between. And doubling up
the doorway(s). The floor standing ATM is being relocated, but it looks
like the photo-booth and the indoor seating is getting the chop. TVMs
increasing from 3 to 4, and manned windows reduced from two to one.

--
Roland Perry

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:08:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:08 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/03/2022 22:55, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 28/03/2022 11:15, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The railways need to catch up with the idea leisure journeys not
>>>>>>>> make a
>>>>>>>> much higher proportion of their passengers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, on this basis, how would you schedule essential engineering
>>>>>>> works?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd put the week/two week blockades into a boring bit of the calendar
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> mostly commuters will be travelling (who will put up with it and come
>>>>>> back), rather than across Christmas/Easter/Half Term.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't that how major works are increasingly being scheduled these
>>>>> days?  It
>>>>> also cuts costs and makes the work more predictable doing it that way.
>>>>>
>>>> Bristol Temple Meads was virtually closed throughout the school summer
>>>> holidays last year.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest this caused inconvenience to the maximum possible
>>>> numbers of long distance travellers passing through Bristol.  I'm sure
>>>> any other time of the year would reduce that impact.  January and
>>>> February seems far more sensible to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Whilst winter may be better from a pax point of view, depending on the
>>> works to be done, winter is far worse - dark, wet, snow, ice etc.
>>>
>>
>> Plenty of other big works are done over Christmas and New Year, pretty much
>> the definition of winter.
>>
>
> Agree, but would they not be of shorter duration in better weather?
>

I don't think it makes that much of a difference tbh (except for the
one-offs like when wet ballast freezes solid in wagons, etc); you can't
rely on it not raining in summer, for example.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:08:23 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:08 UTC

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> . I think I still stand
>>> by that remark that people divide into two groups, those that have had
>>> Omicron and those that will get it. As far as I can see the only way of
>>> avoiding that situation is a permanent lockdown. That’s clearly not
>>> sustainable. Strangely enough, I’ve so far avoided it, though I’ve had a
>>> nasty cold.
>>>
>>
>> That nasty cold may well have been Omicron, even if you tested negative on
>> LFTs…
>
> Possibly, although if it's severe enough to be nastily symptomatic then
> it's almost certainly enough to be picked up by a test. LFTs aren't any
> worse per se at detecting Omicron than any other variant, it's just that
> fully vaccinated people are more likely to have an asymptomatic or mild
> infection that sneaks beneath the sensitivity threshold.
>

I'm speaking from experience; a few months ago (in the very early days of
Omicron, just before the 'new list' of symptoms was released) my partner
and I both had identical symptoms, which we took to just be a bad cold -
snotty nose, annoying but not continuous cough, and, erm, bad wind. We both
did LFTs over several days, all negative. My partner sent off a PCR test
'just in case', which came back positive. I did a drive through PCR that
day (so probably two days later than my partner's test), which was
negative. So either it was Omicron (the symptoms matched the 'new'
symptoms), or we both had a bad cold and at the same time my partner had
asymptomatic Covid…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:19:24 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:19 UTC

On 29/03/2022 22:08, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> . I think I still stand
>>>> by that remark that people divide into two groups, those that have had
>>>> Omicron and those that will get it. As far as I can see the only way of
>>>> avoiding that situation is a permanent lockdown. That’s clearly not
>>>> sustainable. Strangely enough, I’ve so far avoided it, though I’ve had a
>>>> nasty cold.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That nasty cold may well have been Omicron, even if you tested negative on
>>> LFTs…
>>
>> Possibly, although if it's severe enough to be nastily symptomatic then
>> it's almost certainly enough to be picked up by a test. LFTs aren't any
>> worse per se at detecting Omicron than any other variant, it's just that
>> fully vaccinated people are more likely to have an asymptomatic or mild
>> infection that sneaks beneath the sensitivity threshold.
>>
>
> I'm speaking from experience; a few months ago (in the very early days of
> Omicron, just before the 'new list' of symptoms was released) my partner
> and I both had identical symptoms, which we took to just be a bad cold -
> snotty nose, annoying but not continuous cough, and, erm, bad wind. We both
> did LFTs over several days, all negative. My partner sent off a PCR test
> 'just in case', which came back positive. I did a drive through PCR that
> day (so probably two days later than my partner's test), which was
> negative. So either it was Omicron (the symptoms matched the 'new'
> symptoms), or we both had a bad cold and at the same time my partner had
> asymptomatic Covid…
>

Or the two days difference was long enough for you to get a negative test.

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:35:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:35 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 22:08, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> . I think I still stand
>>>>> by that remark that people divide into two groups, those that have had
>>>>> Omicron and those that will get it. As far as I can see the only way of
>>>>> avoiding that situation is a permanent lockdown. That’s clearly not
>>>>> sustainable. Strangely enough, I’ve so far avoided it, though I’ve had a
>>>>> nasty cold.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That nasty cold may well have been Omicron, even if you tested negative on
>>>> LFTs…
>>>
>>> Possibly, although if it's severe enough to be nastily symptomatic then
>>> it's almost certainly enough to be picked up by a test. LFTs aren't any
>>> worse per se at detecting Omicron than any other variant, it's just that
>>> fully vaccinated people are more likely to have an asymptomatic or mild
>>> infection that sneaks beneath the sensitivity threshold.
>>>
>>
>> I'm speaking from experience; a few months ago (in the very early days of
>> Omicron, just before the 'new list' of symptoms was released) my partner
>> and I both had identical symptoms, which we took to just be a bad cold -
>> snotty nose, annoying but not continuous cough, and, erm, bad wind. We both
>> did LFTs over several days, all negative. My partner sent off a PCR test
>> 'just in case', which came back positive. I did a drive through PCR that
>> day (so probably two days later than my partner's test), which was
>> negative. So either it was Omicron (the symptoms matched the 'new'
>> symptoms), or we both had a bad cold and at the same time my partner had
>> asymptomatic Covid…
>>
>
> Or the two days difference was long enough for you to get a negative test.
>

Exactly. But with negative LFTs throughout.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:41:20 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:41 UTC

On 30/03/2022 01:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/03/2022 22:08, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:57:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> . I think I still stand
>>>>>> by that remark that people divide into two groups, those that have had
>>>>>> Omicron and those that will get it. As far as I can see the only way of
>>>>>> avoiding that situation is a permanent lockdown. That’s clearly not
>>>>>> sustainable. Strangely enough, I’ve so far avoided it, though I’ve had a
>>>>>> nasty cold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That nasty cold may well have been Omicron, even if you tested negative on
>>>>> LFTs…
>>>>
>>>> Possibly, although if it's severe enough to be nastily symptomatic then
>>>> it's almost certainly enough to be picked up by a test. LFTs aren't any
>>>> worse per se at detecting Omicron than any other variant, it's just that
>>>> fully vaccinated people are more likely to have an asymptomatic or mild
>>>> infection that sneaks beneath the sensitivity threshold.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm speaking from experience; a few months ago (in the very early days of
>>> Omicron, just before the 'new list' of symptoms was released) my partner
>>> and I both had identical symptoms, which we took to just be a bad cold -
>>> snotty nose, annoying but not continuous cough, and, erm, bad wind. We both
>>> did LFTs over several days, all negative. My partner sent off a PCR test
>>> 'just in case', which came back positive. I did a drive through PCR that
>>> day (so probably two days later than my partner's test), which was
>>> negative. So either it was Omicron (the symptoms matched the 'new'
>>> symptoms), or we both had a bad cold and at the same time my partner had
>>> asymptomatic Covid…
>>>
>>
>> Or the two days difference was long enough for you to get a negative test.
>>
>
> Exactly. But with negative LFTs throughout.
>

That's the one thing which was consistent there.

I had an isolated positive LFT on Wednesday last week and all negative
subsequently.

It's interesting they can be so consistently different. They haven't
reopened the Wolves test lab have they?

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Message-ID: <4bm84hp2b99lfacmuu3terq080m2si13bs@4ax.com>
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:23 UTC

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:40:28 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 28.03.2022 um 19:18 schrieb Charles Ellson:
>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:18:20 +0100, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:08:15 +0100, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:23:32 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:15:19 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:54:54 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> targer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
>>>>>>>>>>>> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
>>>>>>>>>>>> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
>>>>>>>>>>>> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
>>>>>>>>>>>> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> presence to enable infection.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
>>>>>>>>>>> airway?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your airway starts at your nose and mouth. Coughing and sneezing can
>>>>>>>>>> cause a heavier and more concentrated stream of saliva than you get
>>>>>>>>>> with an aerosol.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The virus can spread from an infected person?s mouth or nose in small
>>>>>>>>>> liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe.
>>>>>>>>>> Another person can then contract the virus when infectious particles
>>>>>>>>>> that pass through the air are inhaled at short range (this is often
>>>>>>>>>> called short-range aerosol or short-range airborne transmission) or if
>>>>>>>>>> infectious particles come into direct contact with the eyes, nose, or
>>>>>>>>>> mouth (droplet transmission)."
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A mask wearer is presumably reasonably well protected against droplets
>>>>>>>>> landing on their mouth or nostrils and then breathing in the particles. Is
>>>>>>>>> there any evidence that the virus can be transmitted via the eyes?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your eyes drain internally to your nose via the nasolacrimal duct;
>>>>>>>> infection via the eye itself is less common. Eye protection is
>>>>>>>> standard kit for ambulance and first aid personnel dealing with
>>>>>>>> potential COVID patients.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that precaution based on actual evidence of risk from Covid, or simple
>>>>>>> (sensible) caution all infections?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The eye and associated areas have been regarded as a viable route of
>>>>>> infection for over a century :-
>>>>>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/220430
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One thing we do know is that a lot of the often misinformed
>>>>>>> Covid precautions have at least protected against other illnesses in the
>>>>>>> last two years. For example, all that hand sanitisng didn't do much to
>>>>>>> block Covid but probably reduced food poisoning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without experimenting you have no proof for that. COVID was known to
>>>>>> persist longer on non-absorbent surfaces (e.g. handrails, door handles
>>>>>> etc.) while alcohol is efficient in destroying membranes that hold
>>>>>> viruses together as well as being a long-proven general antiseptic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm asking what actual research has been done about how Covid is
>>>>> spread. Or are they just assuming it's similar to other
>>>>> diseases (when we know it's not)?
>>>>>
>>>> There is plenty of research material available but as a novel disease
>>>> it is currently more heavily based on observation and experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hand sanitising doesn't work when people don't practise it and I have
>>>>>> been around long enough to see that there are plenty of people who are
>>>>>> best described as selfish filthy bastards when it comes to considering
>>>>>> community hygeine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I agree that hand sanitising is good for public health, but just
>>>>> question whether it does much to slow the spread
>>>>> of Covid specifically. Has anyone done any actual research? They
>>>>> certainly hadn't when the advice was first given.
>>>>>
>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/897598/S0574_NERVTAG-EMG_paper_-_hand_hygiene_010720_Redacted.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Note that it can be inferred that standard door handles on
>>>> manually-opened doors, supermarket trolley/basket handles etc. are an
>>>> infection risk which simultaneous use of sanitisation should be
>>>> effective against.
>>>
>>> Wait a second: "hand sanitation is effective in reducing respiratory
>>> diseases". This is *not* research specific to COVID.
>>>
>>> My understanding is that in early 2020, hand hygiene was one of the
>>> "obvious things to do that might reduce transmission" but that by
>>> mid-2020 still there was no evigence of hand hygiene having an impact on
>>> transmission of COVID.
>>>
>>> Out of the three known pathways of transmitting respiratory diseases
>>> (smear infection via hand - eye or hand - mouth, droplet infection and
>>> aerosol infection) it is clear that for COVID, the dominant way of
>>> transmission is aerosol infection; it is not measurable whether smear
>>> infection is relevant for 10% of the infections, for 0.1% of infections
>>> or not at all.
>>
>> Thanks, that confirms what I suspected.
>>
>> Something noticeable in the UK is that the public authorities haven't
>> updated their (incorrect) advice on Covid
>> transmission, nor the list of Covid symptoms from the early days of the
>> pandemic. The ZOE studies have shown how out of
>> date these have become.
>>
>> For example, I had a shingles vaccination appointment recently, and got
>> sent an on-line questionnaire about whether I
>> was exhibiting any of what were obviously meant to be Covid symptoms. But
>> they were all out of date, and not at all
>> representative of the then-current Covid symptoms. It didn't even ask if
>> I'd had a recent positive Covid test, nor
>> request me to take a (free) LFT before showing up for the appointment. I
>> wonder if it's any better in Germany?
>>
>
>I’ve just had an invite to a clinical trial for a new vaccine tailored
>against Omicron. You get that vaccine or one of the existing ones. The snag
>is to qualify you haven’t had to have tested positive since November.
>They’d better hurry up getting back to folk otherwise they won’t find
>anyone left!
>
>“We are looking for volunteers to take part in a study investigating
>whether an experimental booster vaccine can provide better protection
>against the COVID-19 Omicron variant when compared to a booster dose of
>Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine, Spikevax. The trial is sponsored by Moderna and
>run by our NIHR Patient Recruitment Centre
>
>With different strains of COVID-19, there is an urgent need to develop
>vaccination plans that will provide greater protection. A booster vaccine
>that protects against COVID-19 variants, including the Omicron variant,
>would be a crucial public health tool to help curb the pandemic.
>
>Participation in this trial lasts up to 13 months and includes phone calls,
>and up to six visits to the trial site. Participants will receive a single
>dose of either the experimental booster vaccine or the already authorised
>vaccine, Spikevax.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:55:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Sam Wilson - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:55 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/03/2022 03:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/03/2022 14:36, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:57:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>>>>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What happened to Herd immunity. HaHa! Bonk.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We've pretty much reached herd immunity, thanks to the vaccines. That's
>>>>>>>>> why most of us don't worry about it any more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not even the 1:20 (or whatever) who today have Covid? Some catching
>>>>>>>> Omicron for a second time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, though it's probably a different strain each time. Face it: Omicron
>>>>>>> is all around us, and we'll all be exposed to it repeatedly. You can't hide
>>>>>>> from it, so learn to live with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I got pinged today (for the first time). Apparently I encountered a
>>>>>>> positive case last Sunday, when I was in busy airports, buses, a full
>>>>>>> plane, etc. Did I catch it? I don't know, and am not worried. I rather
>>>>>>> hope I did, as it'll act as an Omicron booster shot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Follow-up:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did a LFT test today, and tested positive (for the first time). I'm
>>>>>> delighted, as it will act as my Omicron booster
>>>>>> shot, and my immunity level will be even higher than before. Needless to
>>>>>> say, the symptoms are no more than minor winter
>>>>>> sniffles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent!
>>>>>
>>>>> I got a positive LFT on Wednesday. I feel a lot worse than a minor
>>>>> winter sniffle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And that's despite all your stringent precautions? It proves that there's
>>>> no escaping Omicron, whether you're careful or not.
>>>>
>>>> You need to take the positive view: you have now had your booster shot, are
>>>> now protected against Omicron, and any future infections will be much
>>>> milder. Rejoice that you can now get out more and travel freely!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Someone I know currently has covid for the second time within three months,
>>> and this time is significantly worse.
>>
>> You have to remember that Recliner has a simplistic one size fits all
>> view of the covid crisis.
>
> No. My view is that the highly infectious Omicron is all around you, and
> you can't avoid exposure to it, however careful you are, unless you love in
> permanent self-isolation.
>
>>
>> His symptoms are "no more than minor winter sniffles" so in his view
>> that's all everyone else has. He has no concept that others will have
>> worse symptoms or end up with long covid or even die.
>>
>
> The reality is that very few people get serious symptoms from Omicron. You,
> as always, take the most pessimistic view while I, as always, look on the
> bright side. It may well be that my positive view helps me avoid serious
> illnesses, while your delight in misery makes your symptoms worse.

Victim blaming now? Please don’t.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:05:53 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:05 UTC

In message <t1tb6e$eqo$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:00:45 on Mon, 28 Mar
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>>> And that's presumably with much more mask wearing in Scotland than in England?
>>>
>> Presumably. I haven’t been to England recently but reports from
>>people who have suggest almost nil mask wearing at present. In
>>Scotland it’s still pretty high because there are still legal
>>requirements.
>
>I went to England today by train to University railway station. UNI is
>the three letter code for Roland.

And Merry Xmas to you too.

>Everyone wore masks in the university building I went to because that
>is a requirement.

I went to a hospital on Monday and got shouted at in the reception area
for taking my mask off to make a 30 second phone call.

>A few people wore masks elsewhere but not many.

It's really decreased everywhere else. But perhaps a milder variant has
fewer people coughing and spluttering over everyone else (that's why the
former should wear a mask).
--
Roland Perry

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:13:29 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:13 UTC

In message <tsh14h5od9jd081rbmghvp4q45t283qprf@4ax.com>, at 21:28:00 on
Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:13:39 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <le2v3h9ova3o7mj5vl3r5ik32c6mhmakdv@4ax.com>, at 21:54:40 on
>>Sat, 26 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 15:24:40 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t1n9n7$sp1$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:47 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <gihp3hhuttnadu9d49q08lmnelk2aq2uir@4ax.com>, at 20:40:46 on
>>>>>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:00:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t1g6oc$m2p$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:16 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own* precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your contact with others.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who cannot wear FFP3 masks?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me who that set comprises. In the early days there
>>>>>>>>>> were some issues with FFP2 masks popping off people's ears all
>>>>>>>>>>the time,
>>>>>>>>>> but now you can get a gadget that pulls the strings round the back of
>>>>>>>>>> you head instead.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One which I read in a comment on FB today was autistic people who are
>>>>>>>>> hypersensitive to things touching their face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Autistic people who are that sensitive will have many much greater
>>>>>>>> issues to deal with wrt Covid (and I'm not just saying that, a close
>>>>>>>> friend's day job is respite carer for autistic children whose parents
>>>>>>>> can no longer cope with them 24x7).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Autism can be very variable in the combinations of features and other
>>>>>>> physical or mental conditions which can accompany them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many will have their autism not immediately apparent to those they
>>>>>>> work/live with but with individual elements which are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being hypersensitive about anything touching their face is not something
>>>>>> that's likely to have been overlooked by their carers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Not all autistic people who are sensitive to touch have or need carers
>>>>
>>>>I wonder how many who are so sensitive to touch they can't bear to wear
>>>>a mask, have no-one looking out for them.
>>>>
>>>The effect of wearing a face covering can be more subtle than that.
>>>One mask might cause discomfort while another does not because of the
>>>individual design not causing a particular uncomfortable sensation.
>>>There is no general presumption to be made that an autistic person
>>>cannot deal with it themselves.
>>
>>What do you mean by "dealing with it". Sounds like the "it" is mainly
>>choosing the right design of mask.
>>
>Some will not wear a mask because they tried it, experienced distress
>and expecr the same distress with any mask; others will be able to
>appreciate that a different mask might not be so distressing. If you
>have met one autistic person then you have met one autistic person.

I've met scores of them. At one time both of my neighbours had quite
severely autistic children - going to special schools etc. But there are
plenty in the community not so severely disabled.

Of course there are people "on the spectrum" who one would not normally
describe as "disabled", and who won't have any problem wearing a mask.
It's not a particularly even handed condition.
--
Roland Perry

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:26:24 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:26 UTC

In message <aol04hp6hvqpo6p35bh0kce5ljcq6g7d2d@4ax.com>, at 13:26:59 on
Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:24:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t1f13m$rl6$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:46 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t1es95$lln$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:21 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> As for new vaccines, they seem to have dropped off the news cycle. Last
>>>>>> I heard (and I'm not following it closely) they were declining to play
>>>>>> "whack a mole" with new variants, on the basis by the time a new vaccine
>>>>>> was on the streets that variant would have come and gone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not so. In your diligent study of the scientific literature, this must
>>>>> have escaped you:
>>>>> <https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/pfizer-omicron-vaccine-trial/>
>>>>
>>>> Timelines never were your strong point, but good for Pfizer trying.
>>>
>>>As always, you're surly and ungrateful when someone educates you.
>>
>>I'm always grateful for well informed education.
>
>Never, not once, have you done so!

I'm sure I have expressed gratitude in the past. In here, especially to
those who work on the railways.

>>>I'm sure you were really popular among your colleagues when you were
>>>still employed!
>>
>>Ad-hom noted (did you take the same approach with colleagues when you
>>were working), I've always been very popular with colleagues as it
>>happens, and quite unusually with colleagues both up and down the food
>>chain.
>
>That's why your jobs never lasted long?

You've got your lines crossed. I've always been very popular with
colleagues, and my reasons for moving jobs (see quoted text below) is
disjoint from that. Sometimes it's a wrench, but the new and shiny tech
usually wins out.

>>> No wonder you had so many, short-lived jobs in your brief period of
>>>employment.
>>
>>Ad-hom noted (sure sign of clutching at straws). My employment
>>continues, so that's around 48 years now. More than enough to have
>>earned a full state pension.
>
>Make your mind up: are you retired or not? You keep changing your
>story.

We need to clear is up once and for all, because it's getting beyond
tiresome.

I have always said that I'm semi-retired, and with a part-time properly
employed job (four years next week), because I like that job. It's in a
completely new sector, but that's part of the attraction, and also one
I've had an affinity with for a long time. I agree that most people in
my position would have fully retired by now, but I like to keep busy,
have plenty of colleagues and other interesting people to mix with.

My previous career-arc job came to a grinding halt at Brexit (or more
accurately at Theresa May's snap election) because from then on nobody
was interested in pursuing any policy initiatives except Brexit for the
then foreseeable future (indeed, it's only the last six months some
green shoots have been showing).

They rapidly wrapped up all the more important Bills which might have
otherwise dragged on for months or years in the absence of the election,
including the one I was working on (the good news being that in their
haste they agreed to what I wanted, rather than arguing about it). One
of the subsequent casualties was the sixth Boundaries Commission report,
which I had some passing interest in, but got shelved.

>I take it you're involuntarily long-term unemployed, but occasionally
>get some minimum wage, low value work.

Preposterous.

>>Of course, the way my career evolved (always seeking out the latest
>>bleeding edge technologies) is inherent in my ability to adapt and learn
>>about multiple industries. I know people who spent a lifetime in just
>>one industry find it hard to understand why someone could know so much
>>about so many, but after a year or two one can get stuck in a rut, and
>>it's time to move on.
>>
>>>>> Masks stop droplets, which is almost irrelevant for Covid.
>>>>
>>>> They stop 95% of virus sized particulates, too.
>>>
>>>Not most masks. Only a tiny minority of the public, or even hospital staff,
>>>wear properly fitted N95 respirator masks.
>>
>>But isn't an argument against those of us who wear properly fitted
>>ones. I have to admire the way you so easily dismiss the ability of
>>professionals to do something as trivial as wearing mask properly.
>
>So, are you telling us that all medical staff wear properly fitting N95
>masks whenever they're on duty? Surely, even you don't think that?

There's a general rule on Usenet that very rarely is the word "all"
going to stick. Someone will have a counterexample. In the case of
medical staff it runs deeper than that - most of them have simply not
been issued with N95 (or equivalent) which is one of the reasons
hospitals in particular have had so many people off with Covid.

But this is uk.railway, and discussion of Covid (other than to note its
effects on the day to day running/funding of the railways) is off-topic,
however much people keep returning to it.

>>How do any of them even manage to tie their shoelaces?
>
>How do you manage to exhibit such stupidity?

And you such rudeness, or is it "just banter"?
--
Roland Perry

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 20:37:41 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 19:37 UTC

On 27/03/2022 21:32, Recliner wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2022 11:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t182ci$mk1$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:21:38 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:40:55 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of the
>>>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your workforce. I doubt
>>>>>>>> the railway could cope with losing any more than that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then; or if they
>>>>>> are, a replacement will be recruited as they would for a normal retirement
>>>>>> or resignation.
>>>>>
>>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>>> industries.
>>>>
>>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>>
>>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry, with many
>>>> (presumably most) positions being filled internally; this means your
>>>> shortage of staff is more likely to occur among guards and catering staff,
>>>> as they move on to other roles.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect guards are amongst the roles the treasury regard as
>>> supernumerary.
>>
>> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
>> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
>> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>>
>
> How many guards actually check tickets on routes with gated stations these
> days? Don't they just hide in the back cab?
>

Had mine checked this evening between two gated stations, and had the
railcard checked as well.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 06:41:00 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 05:41 UTC

In message <t27ka5$aud$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:41 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 27/03/2022 21:32, Recliner wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2022 11:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t182ci$mk1$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:21:38 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:40:55 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>><usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of
>>>>>>>>>the workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your
>>>>>>>>>workforce. I doubt the railway could cope with losing any more
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then;
>>>>>>>or if they are, a replacement will be recruited as they would
>>>>>>>for a normal retirement or resignation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>>>> industries.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>>>
>>>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry,
>>>>>with many (presumably most) positions being filled internally;
>>>>>this means your shortage of staff is more likely to occur among
>>>>>guards and catering staff, as they move on to other roles.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect guards are amongst the roles the treasury regard as
>>>> supernumerary.
>>>
>>> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
>>> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
>>> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>>>
>> How many guards actually check tickets on routes with gated stations
>>these days? Don't they just hide in the back cab?
>
>Had mine checked this evening between two gated stations, and had the
>railcard checked as well.

On 'Intercity' style trains they'll usually do a check, regardless of
whether there are barriers. Not least because someone might have arrived
at a barriered station from an unbarriered one, and changed trains.

Where the guards *are* accused of 'hiding in the back cab' is often on
very crowded trains where there are closely spaced stations. Part of the
problem there being that even if they could round all the pax in time,
just one penalty fare would be impossible to process in the time
available.
--
Roland Perry

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:02:48 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:02 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <pqqo3hh9jfint0oe6npsfmmptq72tu3olk@4ax.com>, at 13:03:39 on
>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>> The Flu annual cycle is because they have to try and predict which
>>>>>>> variant is likely to be the one going round this year. It's quite
>>>>>>> possible that Covid could end up in a similar position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That doesn't quite work, because the flu variants they are immunising
>>>>>> against are already in circulation, they just try to predict which might
>>>>>> be in the ascendancy six months later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Covid variants are all brand new.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they aren't brand new. They evolve from existing successful
>>>>> variants, so we do have clues about what might come
>>>>> next.
>>>>
>>>> Timelines again. They are "brand new" compared to the flu viruses which
>>>> are selected to be jabbed against each Autumn. And in any event Omicron
>>>> for example is still "new" in the timescale of creating, testing and
>>>> rolling out a new vaccine.
>>>>
>>>> See below for the dates the Omicrons were first discovered.
>>>>
>>>>>> Unless anyone thinks that Alpha (or
>>>>>> whatever) will be making a comeback next year.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, but next winter's dominant variant is very likely to be a
>>>>> descendant of the current Omicron BA.2 sub-variant. So, a
>>>>> vaccine designed to combat BA.2 is likely to be much more effective
>>>>> than one designed to combat Alpha.
>>>>
>>>> I'm confident that prediction is as unfounded as others of yours. Like
>>>> "there won't be a third wave". It doesn't mean there isn't a slim
>>>> possibility it'll be true, but you are coming across as over-confident.
>>>>
>>>>> "Reinfection with BA.2 following infection with BA.1 has been
>>>>> documented, however, initial data from population-level
>>>>> reinfection studies suggest that infection with BA.1 provides strong
>>>>> protection against reinfection with BA.2, at least
>>>>> for the limited period for which data are available."
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.who.int/news/item/22-02-2022-statement-on-omicron-subline
>>>>> age-ba.2>
>>>>
>>>> More data on Covid lineages at:
>>>>
>>>> https://cov-lineages.org/lineage_list.html
>>>>
>>>> BA.1 mid Sept 2021
>>>> BA.2 mid Nov 2021
>>>> BA.3 end Nov 2021, also an Omicron; you can read the rest for yourself.
>>>
>>> The point is that these are close cousins, and prior infection with one
>>> provides good protection against its cousins.
>>> It's likely that the same will be true of vaccines, so an
>>> Omicron-focused vaccine will probably be more effective now
>>> than the original formulations, even if the virus has evolved further
>>> by the autumn, which is likely.
>>
>> As ever, I'm disinclined to make such assumptions unless confirmed by a
>> qualified epidemiologist.
>
> That's what the trials are evaluating.

And, guess what? Shock horror, contrary to Roland's beliefs, the trials
have indeed found that vaccines targeted on newer variants are indeed more
effective against them. Who'd have thunk it?

Updated Moderna Covid booster ‘protects better against Omicron’

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c5092b40-c017-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=c006431cc9f54e837903055ad6bc7325>

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:55:22 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:55 UTC

In message <t3nij8$v1b$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:02:48 on Wed, 20 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <pqqo3hh9jfint0oe6npsfmmptq72tu3olk@4ax.com>, at 13:03:39 on
>>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> The Flu annual cycle is because they have to try and predict which
>>>>>>>> variant is likely to be the one going round this year. It's quite
>>>>>>>> possible that Covid could end up in a similar position.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That doesn't quite work, because the flu variants they are immunising
>>>>>>> against are already in circulation, they just try to predict which might
>>>>>>> be in the ascendancy six months later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Covid variants are all brand new.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they aren't brand new. They evolve from existing successful
>>>>>> variants, so we do have clues about what might come
>>>>>> next.
>>>>>
>>>>> Timelines again. They are "brand new" compared to the flu viruses which
>>>>> are selected to be jabbed against each Autumn. And in any event Omicron
>>>>> for example is still "new" in the timescale of creating, testing and
>>>>> rolling out a new vaccine.
>>>>>
>>>>> See below for the dates the Omicrons were first discovered.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unless anyone thinks that Alpha (or
>>>>>>> whatever) will be making a comeback next year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, but next winter's dominant variant is very likely to be a
>>>>>> descendant of the current Omicron BA.2 sub-variant. So, a
>>>>>> vaccine designed to combat BA.2 is likely to be much more effective
>>>>>> than one designed to combat Alpha.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm confident that prediction is as unfounded as others of yours. Like
>>>>> "there won't be a third wave". It doesn't mean there isn't a slim
>>>>> possibility it'll be true, but you are coming across as over-confident.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Reinfection with BA.2 following infection with BA.1 has been
>>>>>> documented, however, initial data from population-level
>>>>>> reinfection studies suggest that infection with BA.1 provides strong
>>>>>> protection against reinfection with BA.2, at least
>>>>>> for the limited period for which data are available."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.who.int/news/item/22-02-2022-statement-on-omicron-subline
>>>>>> age-ba.2>
>>>>>
>>>>> More data on Covid lineages at:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cov-lineages.org/lineage_list.html
>>>>>
>>>>> BA.1 mid Sept 2021
>>>>> BA.2 mid Nov 2021
>>>>> BA.3 end Nov 2021, also an Omicron; you can read the rest for yourself.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that these are close cousins, and prior infection with one
>>>> provides good protection against its cousins.

>>>> It's likely that the same will be true of vaccines, so an
>>>> Omicron-focused vaccine will probably be more effective now
>>>> than the original formulations, even if the virus has evolved further
>>>> by the autumn, which is likely.
>>>
>>> As ever, I'm disinclined to make such assumptions unless confirmed by a
>>> qualified epidemiologist.
>>
>> That's what the trials are evaluating.
>
>And, guess what? Shock horror, contrary to Roland's beliefs,

My only belief was that trials were required, rather than jumping to
conclusions.

>the trials have indeed found that vaccines targeted on newer variants
>are indeed more effective against them. Who'd have thunk it?

Nice to see it proved by trials, rather than armchair epidemiologists
making assumptions.

>Updated Moderna Covid booster ‘protects better against Omicron’
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c5092b40-c017-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc
>?shareToken=c006431cc9f54e837903055ad6bc7325>

And when will it be approved for use, and manufactured at scale? "Later
this year" is a bit vague.

ps This is all a bit off-topic for uk.railway, but it seems you insist
on doing it.
--
Roland Perry

Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"

<t3olge$m07$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28412&group=uk.railway#28412

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: "The rail industry is not a job creation scheme"
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:58:38 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:58 UTC

Am 20.04.2022 um 09:55 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <t3nij8$v1b$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:02:48 on Wed, 20 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> the trials have indeed found that vaccines targeted on newer variants
>> are indeed more effective against them. Who'd have thunk it?
>
> Nice to see it proved by trials, rather than armchair epidemiologists
> making assumptions.
>
>> Updated Moderna Covid booster ‘protects better against Omicron’
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c5092b40-c017-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc
>> ?shareToken=c006431cc9f54e837903055ad6bc7325>
>
> And when will it be approved for use, and manufactured at scale? "Later
> this year" is a bit vague.

The German health service plans on mass availability (Biontech and
Moderna) in September.

Rolf

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