On 16/04/2022 07:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> The hatching there will be a structural issue, to persuade vehicles to
> take a centre-line, spreading the load more effectively. The whole thing
> looks a bit top-heavy, already:https://goo.gl/maps/twE1XCnEZzQBZVLr5

And don't forget that the centre hatching just before there is only
advisory.

In message <t3e06p$nri$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:46 on Sat, 16 Apr
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 16/04/2022 07:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> The hatching there will be a structural issue, to persuade vehicles to
>> take a centre-line, spreading the load more effectively. The whole thing
>> looks a bit top-heavy, already:https://goo.gl/maps/twE1XCnEZzQBZVLr5
>
>And don't forget that the centre hatching just before there is only
>advisory.

What's wrong with advising people not to drive into the end of the
sidewall (taking out a bollard and Clearway sign en-route)?

https://goo.gl/maps/G5BcpMDDCEFKWmAv6
--
Roland Perry

On 16/04/2022 11:47, Roland Perry wrote:
> What's wrong with advising people not to drive into the end of the
> sidewall (taking out a bollard and Clearway sign en-route)?

Nothing wrong with that and unlikely to be done in that particular
location but many (including some plod) think motorists are not allowed
those hatched areas,

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 11:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>> What's wrong with advising people not to drive into the end of the
>> sidewall (taking out a bollard and Clearway sign en-route)?
>
> Nothing wrong with that and unlikely to be done in that particular
> location but many (including some plod) think motorists are not allowed
> those hatched areas,

Which hatched areas? The one on left before the wall starts has a dashed
boundary so it’s allowable to cross it if necessary; the ones on the right
and on both sides of the elevated section have a solid boundary and you
MUST NOT enter except in an emergency. HC rule 130.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 14:48:54 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 16/04/2022 11:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> What's wrong with advising people not to drive into the end of the
>>> sidewall (taking out a bollard and Clearway sign en-route)?
>>
>> Nothing wrong with that and unlikely to be done in that particular
>> location but many (including some plod) think motorists are not allowed
>> those hatched areas,
>
>Which hatched areas? The one on left before the wall starts has a dashed
>boundary so it’s allowable to cross it if necessary; the ones on the right
>and on both sides of the elevated section have a solid boundary and you
>MUST NOT enter except in an emergency. HC rule 130.
>
There is a roundabout under the A40 at the top of the West Cross route
with a poor layout where some drivers coming down from the A40 fail to
recognise the broken lines and get arsey with drivers coming up the
ramp from Wood Lane who cross the hatched area to safely negotiate the
route toward the south by getting into the correct lane.
https://goo.gl/maps/BowyeLWaBpc1Q2Do9

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
> Road?).

Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
either case (where relevant).

Mike

On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>> Road?).
>
> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
> either case (where relevant).
>
If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
limit signs when you join them. They don't.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>
> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
> limit signs when you join them. They don't.
>

On several sites on the web you will find words like or very similar to
this.

“As such, motorways are a subset of Special Roads - or, to put it another
way, all motorways are Special Roads, but not all Special Roads are
motorways.”

Can you point to a link or a quote that makes your statement correct and
all the others wrong?

GH

On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>> Road?).
>>
>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>> either case (where relevant).
>>
> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.

Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:09:05 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>> Road?).
>>>
>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>
>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>
>Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>
Each of the three jurisdictions in the UK have their own roads
legislation including that for Special Roads, resulting in some
variations.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:09:05 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>> Road?).
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>
>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>
>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>>
> Each of the three jurisdictions in the UK have their own roads
> legislation including that for Special Roads, resulting in some
> variations.
>

Having my interest piqued, I looked up the E&W legislation last night. Th
Road Traffic Regulations 1984 are the latest regarding motorways being
special roads. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016
set out that the blue motorway sign you see on joining the motorway define
the start of the regulations defined in the 1984 act. No need for 70 signs
(which aren’t correct anyway for a large proportion of traffic that uses a
motorway and aren’t correct when there is a variable speed limit sign in
use).

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>> Road?).
>>>
>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>
>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>
> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.

That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/04/2022 10:23, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>> Road?).
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>
>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>
>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>
> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.
>
> Sam
>

True: https://goo.gl/maps/3mt6Dbscy3xLSYG7A

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 10:23, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>>> Road?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>>
>>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>>
>>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>>
>> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> True: https://goo.gl/maps/3mt6Dbscy3xLSYG7A
That’s interesting, because IIRC the limit there is 50 rather than the
default 70.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/04/2022 11:41, ColinR wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 10:23, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like
>>>>>> "Special
>>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>>> Road?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a
>>>>> Special
>>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>>
>>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>>
>>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>>
>> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway
>> sign.
>
> True: https://goo.gl/maps/3mt6Dbscy3xLSYG7A
>
That's odd, and probably a mistake. There's a 50 reminder at the far
end of the slip lane but no "start of 50 restriction" sign. The normal
road which provides access to the slip lane is 30 mph.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>> Road?).
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>
>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>
>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>
> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.
>
> Sam
>

The dualled bit of the A1 in East Lothian, which almost feels like a
motorway but doesn’t have the A1(M) designation has 70 signs. I always
seemed a bit odd, as other such roads don’t have such signs.

On 20/04/2022 17:11, Tweed wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>>> Road?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>>
>>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>>
>>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>>
>> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.
>
> The dualled bit of the A1 in East Lothian, which almost feels like a
> motorway but doesn’t have the A1(M) designation has 70 signs. I always
> seemed a bit odd, as other such roads don’t have such signs.

In Scotland, special roads and motorways don't have a default speed
limit, so they need to be signed explicitly. Most of them are 70 mph.
It may be possible to get away with doing more than 70 on the slip lane
picured earlier, if that's possible going uphill from a tight corner.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 19:04:58 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 20/04/2022 17:11, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2022 14:50, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 19/04/2022 13:50, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:59:08 +0100, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>> There are also roads with special restrictions which look like "Special
>>>>>>> Roads" but aren't. (North-Eastern bits of the A406 North Circular
>>>>>>> Road?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there's no way to tell if a road is a Special Road or a Highway
>>>>>> without finding the relevant orders for it. A Motorway must be a Special
>>>>>> Road. Otherwise a Special Road can allow any classes (up to "all of
>>>>>> them") and a Highway can have any traffic banned by Traffic Regulation
>>>>>> Order, giving identical results. The green "NO" sign can be used in
>>>>>> either case (where relevant).
>>>>>>
>>>>> If a motorway was a special road it would have to have 70 mph speed
>>>>> limit signs when you join them.  They don't.
>>>>
>>>> Scottish motorways have speed limit signs (usually 70) at each entry.
>>>
>>> That’s not universally true - some do but some just have the motorway sign.
>>
>> The dualled bit of the A1 in East Lothian, which almost feels like a
>> motorway but doesn’t have the A1(M) designation has 70 signs. I always
>> seemed a bit odd, as other such roads don’t have such signs.
>
>In Scotland, special roads and motorways don't have a default speed
>limit, so they need to be signed explicitly. Most of them are 70 mph.
>It may be possible to get away with doing more than 70 on the slip lane
>picured earlier, if that's possible going uphill from a tight corner.
>
Special roads in Scotland exist under different legislation from those
in England and Wales. The schemes under which they are provided are
thus not inevitably of the same general nature as they were already
administered by different government departments before the
restoration of the Scottish Parliament.