The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado' and a
train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the 15th
and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people, as it was
common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was that common.
Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house, which made much more
sense.
I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
mistakes like that.
Unless, pf course, they don't really care...
--
Davey.

I have found that sighted people when proof reading their own work, are
often seeing what they expect to see, not what is actually there.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Davey" <davey@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:sm4e1i$4vg$1@dont-email.me...
> The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado' and a
> train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
> traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the 15th
> and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people, as it was
> common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was that common.
> Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house, which made much more
> sense.
> I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
> filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
> mistakes like that.
> Unless, pf course, they don't really care...
> --
> Davey.
>

Yes, I know what you mean. Things are often missed when filming stuff, like
the wrong sort of tv aerial for the period, plastic drain covers when they
were normally cast iron back then. Road markings that only occurred long
after the period.
This was going on back in the 90s when I could see, and I often wondered
where the research was done.

I'm assuming this sort of thing has only got worse.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sm5dg7$879$1@dont-email.me...
> On Fri 05/11/2021 23:17, Davey wrote:
>> The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado' and a
>> train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
>> traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the 15th
>> and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people, as it was
>> common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was that common.
>> Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house, which made much more
>> sense.
>> I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
>> filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
>> mistakes like that.
>> Unless, pf course, they don't really care...
>>
>
> I suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they don't
> know the difference between a heron and a herring. It also shows up far
> far too often when they do things like a piece of video reversed left to
> right for effect and fail to realise that people will notice the
> background, or they use a modern phone in a 50/60's drama, or (as in
> Endeavour) they use an American desk phone which would never have been
> available at that time.
>
> A good example of failure to pay attention was in the new Dalgliesh on Ch5
> Thursday night. He is driving an E-type V12 Jag with a J reg plate, that
> registration being 1971-72. He hears something on the radio about Margaret
> Thatcher: she became Conservative leader in 1975 which establishes
> possibly the earliest year the drama could be representing. He arrives at
> the murder scene and there are two police cars outside - a Morris Minor
> 1000 and a Triumph Herald. By the mid 70's traffic cars were largely such
> as Granadas, Range Rovers, Triumph 2000 and the like and area cars were
> often Escorts, Cortinas, Austin 1100's (agh!) etc. At least his bag-man's
> car was a Capri which would be about right.
>
> The very simple things that we all learned about as children are just
> by-passed these days as they spend their time on social media.
>
> D'oh!

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 08:13:58 +0000
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On Fri 05/11/2021 23:17, Davey wrote:
> > The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado'
> > and a train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
> > traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the
> > 15th and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people,
> > as it was common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was
> > that common. Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house,
> > which made much more sense.
> > I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
> > filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
> > mistakes like that.
> > Unless, pf course, they don't really care...
> >
>
> I suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they
> don't know the difference between a heron and a herring. It also
> shows up far far too often when they do things like a piece of video
> reversed left to right for effect and fail to realise that people
> will notice the background, or they use a modern phone in a 50/60's
> drama, or (as in Endeavour) they use an American desk phone which
> would never have been available at that time.
>
> A good example of failure to pay attention was in the new Dalgliesh
> on Ch5 Thursday night. He is driving an E-type V12 Jag with a J reg
> plate, that registration being 1971-72. He hears something on the
> radio about Margaret Thatcher: she became Conservative leader in 1975
> which establishes possibly the earliest year the drama could be
> representing. He arrives at the murder scene and there are two police
> cars outside - a Morris Minor 1000 and a Triumph Herald. By the mid
> 70's traffic cars were largely such as Granadas, Range Rovers,
> Triumph 2000 and the like and area cars were often Escorts, Cortinas,
> Austin 1100's (agh!) etc. At least his bag-man's car was a Capri
> which would be about right.
>
> The very simple things that we all learned about as children are just
> by-passed these days as they spend their time on social media.
>
> D'oh!

In the 'old days', they had Continuity Girls, whose job it was to
provide seamless transitions from one scene to the next (shirts
buttoned to different heights, scarves thrown over opposite
shoulders, etc) and I thought to also follow details like these. But
some, such as the car details you mentioned, might be a bit too
anoracky for somebody without that interest. But it should have been
researched by somebody, surely?
My personal favourite at the moment is the emergency plumber who throws
a spanner to shut off a water valve, the problem being that he in fact
opens it fully. A detail, yes, but it grates to those who know it's
wrong.
--
Davey.

Woody wrote:

> suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they don't know the
> difference between a heron and a herring.

Maybe it was a "when the boat comes in" accent?

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 08:57:52 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Woody wrote:
>
> > suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they
> > don't know the difference between a heron and a herring.
>
> Maybe it was a "when the boat comes in" accent?
>

I have rarely seen accents on subtitles, but you never know!
--
Davey.

Davey wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Woody wrote:
>>
>>> suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they
>>> don't know the difference between a heron and a herring.
>>
>> Maybe it was a "when the boat comes in" accent?
>
> I have rarely seen accents on subtitles, but you never know!

I meant the spoken accent was difficult for the subtitle transcriber to
hear/understand!

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:17:06 +0000, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
wrote:

>The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado' and a
>train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
>traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the 15th
>and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people, as it was
>common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was that common.
>Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house, which made much more
>sense.
>I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
>filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
>mistakes like that.
>Unless, pf course, they don't really care...

They probably don't care. The BBC certainly doesn't. On 23rd
October, I sent this complaint to them about "Guilt", their flagship
Scottish drama broadcast on BBC Scotland on 19th October. (Repeated on
BBC2 later in the week.)

"Subtitles throughout were a disgrace, and on occasion bore little
resemblance to what was being said. Most egregious example was when
(Edinburgh's) Corstorphine Hill was rendered as "Corstockon" Hill. Is
this really the best you can do? BBC SCOTLAND!! Did no-one have the
intelligence to pick that error up?"

They replied: "The subtitling of BBC programmes is provided by Red Bee
Media. We raised your concerns about the quality of the subtitling for
this programme directly with them.

Red Bee Media's Subtitling Management team has now conducted a full
review of the subtitles created for Guilt, and please accept the
apologies of the subtitling service that the original subtitles for
this programme weren't up to their usual high standards.

They would like to add that your complaint has been taken very
seriously, and that your feedback and use of the subtitling service is
very much appreciated. Again, they are sorry that you weren't able to
enjoy the service as expected on this occasion."

Two more episodes followed, the last being broadcast on Tuesday 2nd
November. In spite of the time they had available, and the "full
review" they allegedly carried out, there was no improvement to the
subtitles.

As you say, live broadcast is one thing, but in a recorded programme,
there is no excuse.

On 06/11/2021 09:36, John Armstrong wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:17:06 +0000, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> The documentary showing the journey of the steam engine 'Tornado' and a
>> train of carriages up the North-East coast of England shows a
>> traditional fish smoke-house. The subtitles explained that, in the 15th
>> and 16th centuries, heron was a staple food for most people, as it was
>> common and easily caught. I had no idea that the bird was that common.
>> Then it showed a traditional herring smoke-house, which made much more
>> sense.
>> I can excuse a mistake like that during a live broadcast, but in a
>> filmed and edited documentary, there really is no excuse for editing
>> mistakes like that.
>> Unless, pf course, they don't really care...
>
> They probably don't care. The BBC certainly doesn't. On 23rd
> October, I sent this complaint to them about "Guilt", their flagship
> Scottish drama broadcast on BBC Scotland on 19th October. (Repeated on
> BBC2 later in the week.)
>
>
> "Subtitles throughout were a disgrace, and on occasion bore little
> resemblance to what was being said. Most egregious example was when
> (Edinburgh's) Corstorphine Hill was rendered as "Corstockon" Hill. Is
> this really the best you can do? BBC SCOTLAND!! Did no-one have the
> intelligence to pick that error up?"
>
> They replied: "The subtitling of BBC programmes is provided by Red Bee
> Media. We raised your concerns about the quality of the subtitling for
> this programme directly with them.
>
> Red Bee Media's Subtitling Management team has now conducted a full
> review of the subtitles created for Guilt, and please accept the
> apologies of the subtitling service that the original subtitles for
> this programme weren't up to their usual high standards.
>
> They would like to add that your complaint has been taken very
> seriously, and that your feedback and use of the subtitling service is
> very much appreciated. Again, they are sorry that you weren't able to
> enjoy the service as expected on this occasion."
>
> Two more episodes followed, the last being broadcast on Tuesday 2nd
> November. In spite of the time they had available, and the "full
> review" they allegedly carried out, there was no improvement to the
> subtitles.
>
> As you say, live broadcast is one thing, but in a recorded programme,
> there is no excuse.
>

What would be the cost of reviewing and revising the subtitles of a
programme in order to eliminate all such errors?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 09:29:31 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Davey wrote:
>
> > Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >> Woody wrote:
> >>
> >>> suspect it is not so much that they don't care but more that they
> >>> don't know the difference between a heron and a herring.
> >>
> >> Maybe it was a "when the boat comes in" accent?
> >
> > I have rarely seen accents on subtitles, but you never know!
>
> I meant the spoken accent was difficult for the subtitle transcriber
> to hear/understand!

Maybe, and quite possibly, but the context pretty much defines the
correct word. They don't have many herons caught in fishing nets off
the North Sea Coast!
--
Davey.

On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 09:36:52 +0000, John Armstrong
<jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>They probably don't care. The BBC certainly doesn't. On 23rd
>October, I sent this complaint to them about "Guilt", their flagship
>Scottish drama broadcast on BBC Scotland on 19th October. (Repeated on
>BBC2 later in the week.)
>
>
>"Subtitles throughout were a disgrace, and on occasion bore little
>resemblance to what was being said. Most egregious example was when
>(Edinburgh's) Corstorphine Hill was rendered as "Corstockon" Hill. Is
>this really the best you can do? BBC SCOTLAND!! Did no-one have the
>intelligence to pick that error up?"

I'll take your word for it, because that was one recent drama for
which I didn't need to use the subtitles at all. Nearly everyone spoke
with Scottish accents of course, but everyone spoke clearly. It's the
English and American dramas where actors speak too fast and mangle
their words that are sometimes difficult to follow.

Rod.

On 06/11/2021 08:52, Davey wrote:

> some, such as the car details you mentioned, might be a bit too
> anoracky for somebody without that interest. But it should have been
> researched by somebody, surely?

There has to be a question of availability too. The Classic Cars
newsgroup occasionally carries a warning that someone loaned their
treasured classic to a programme maker or film set and discovered that
when they got it back it has been "just a prop" as far as the recipients
were concerned, and it was returned with small scratches or dents, or
something mechanical wrong like ruined synchromesh in the gearbox. The
production company probably pays for the repairs, but a repaired car is
not the same as an original car.

The Classic Car advice is that the car can be used provided it is only
driven by the owner and it is not left on set when it is not being
filmed. Thus there is a problem of availability, and hence the attitude
that near enough is good enough when they try to source old cars. The
other thing they don't always get right is the sound effects, and I have
noted an occasional 4-cylinder exhaust note from something that has a
6-cylinder engine.

The one thing that the production can't control is the background. I
remember watching a Miss Marple episode and noting the surprising number
of houses with UPVC windows in a supposedly 1950s village.

Jim

On 06/11/2021 12:52, Indy Jess John wrote:
> There has to be a question of availability too. The Classic Cars
> newsgroup occasionally carries a warning that someone loaned their
> treasured classic to a programme maker or film set and discovered that
> when they got it back it has been "just a prop" as far as the recipients
> were concerned, and it was returned with small scratches or dents, or
> something mechanical wrong like ruined synchromesh in the gearbox. The
> production company probably pays for the repairs, but a repaired car is
> not the same as an original car.

A friend supplied radio equipment for use in a couple of TV productions.
I warned him to ensure there was a suitably high penalty payment in the
event of damage or loss because film and TV people have no respect for
other people's property.

On 06/11/2021 08:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I have found that sighted people when proof reading their own work, are
> often seeing what they expect to see, not what is actually there.

Someone with ADHD is probably ideal for a continuity checking role.

On 06/11/2021 09:57, Robin wrote:
> What would be the cost of reviewing and revising the subtitles of a
> programme in order to eliminate all such errors?

And just think how many thousands of letters / EMails / phone calls they
get for any popular programme, mostly either very trial or wrong.

On 06/11/2021 10:23, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> I'll take your word for it, because that was one recent drama for
> which I didn't need to use the subtitles at all. Nearly everyone spoke
> with Scottish accents of course, but everyone spoke clearly.

Which "Scottish accent"?

Rather like referring to an "English accent".

On a trip to the Northern Isles, one of our group thought he could mimic
a "Scottish accent" and kept doing a classic "Scottish accent". It took
some time to convince him that they do not speak like that on Orkney or
Shetland.

In article <sm5v8m$pa4$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 12:52, Indy Jess John wrote:
> > There has to be a question of availability too. The Classic Cars
> > newsgroup occasionally carries a warning that someone loaned their
> > treasured classic to a programme maker or film set and discovered that
> > when they got it back it has been "just a prop" as far as the recipients
> > were concerned, and it was returned with small scratches or dents, or
> > something mechanical wrong like ruined synchromesh in the gearbox. The
> > production company probably pays for the repairs, but a repaired car is
> > not the same as an original car.

> A friend supplied radio equipment for use in a couple of TV productions.
> I warned him to ensure there was a suitably high penalty payment in the
> event of damage or loss because film and TV people have no respect for
> other people's property.

like "This gun is unloaded"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 05/11/2021 23:17, Davey wrote:
> Unless, pf course, they don't really care...

What is the excuse for that typo? Not good to have typos when
criticising others for similar.

On 06/11/2021 13:21, MB wrote:
> On 06/11/2021 09:57, Robin wrote:
>> What would be the cost of reviewing and revising the subtitles of a
>> programme in order to eliminate all such errors?
>
>
> And just think how many thousands of letters / EMails / phone calls they
> get for any popular programme, mostly either very trial or wrong.
>
>

I have no idea how many (and the few people I know who rely on subtitles
don't fuss about the lapses). Do you have a source?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Davey" <davey@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:sm5fnh$h89$1@dont-email.me...

> In the 'old days', they had Continuity Girls, whose job it was to
> provide seamless transitions from one scene to the next (shirts
> buttoned to different heights, scarves thrown over opposite
> shoulders, etc) and I thought to also follow details like these. But
> some, such as the car details you mentioned, might be a bit too
> anoracky for somebody without that interest. But it should have been
> researched by somebody, surely?

When cars and other period details have to be ordered explicitly (you don't
use what happens to be "lying around", parked by the side of the road, you
expect the props master to have done his research.

At least the none of the cars mentioned were anachronistic: ie the action
takes place before certain cars were first released. If they are too old for
the time period (ie police would already have replaced older cars with newer
ones) at least it's plausible to say that some forces may be hanging onto
older vehicles until they are life-expired.

On 06/11/2021 08:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I have found that sighted people when proof reading their own work, are
> often seeing what they expect to see, not what is actually there.
>
> Brian
>
That's the problem!

Bill

"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:iunq63F36ndU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 06/11/2021 08:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> I have found that sighted people when proof reading their own work, are
>> often seeing what they expect to see, not what is actually there.
>>
>> Brian
>>
> That's the problem!

It doesn't even have to be your own words that you are proof reading. Many
of us read what we expect to be there, as in the famous

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/bd/60/ef/bd60ef22bdeb4f8ac4613f5daeff67d3.jpg

For Brian's benefit, it's an equilateral triangle, point at the top,
containing the words

PARIS [new line]
IN THE [new line]
THE SPRING

Many people don't notice the second "THE".

When I'm proofreading something I've written, for typos as opposed to
logical sense, I tend to read it out loud to myself, to force me to read
slower and to hear the words as well as see them.

In message <sm6pcr$v81$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> writes
>"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
>news:iunq63F36ndU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 06/11/2021 08:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>>> I have found that sighted people when proof reading their own work, are
>>> often seeing what they expect to see, not what is actually there.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>> That's the problem!
>
>It doesn't even have to be your own words that you are proof reading.
>Many of us read what we expect to be there, as in the famous
>
>https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/bd/60/ef/bd60ef22bdeb4f8ac4613f5daeff67d3.jpg
>
>For Brian's benefit, it's an equilateral triangle, point at the top,
>containing the words
>
>PARIS [new line]
>IN THE [new line]
>THE SPRING
>
>Many people don't notice the second "THE".
>
>
>When I'm proofreading something I've written, for typos as opposed to
>logical sense, I tend to read it out loud to myself, to force me to
>read slower and to hear the words as well as see them.

Mistakes are much more obvious if you use a text-to-speech program so
you can listen to the words while you read them.
--
Ian

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:26:03 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 06/11/2021 10:23, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> I'll take your word for it, because that was one recent drama for
>> which I didn't need to use the subtitles at all. Nearly everyone spoke
>> with Scottish accents of course, but everyone spoke clearly.
>
>Which "Scottish accent"?

Rod wrote "Scottish accents"

>
--

Martin in Zuid Holland

In article <cmdfog5674ioe1cs3k8as23625okpf7iu2@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 11:12:10 +0100, Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> >On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:26:03 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On 06/11/2021 10:23, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> >>> I'll take your word for it, because that was one recent drama for
> >>> which I didn't need to use the subtitles at all. Nearly everyone spoke
> >>> with Scottish accents of course, but everyone spoke clearly.
> >>
> >>Which "Scottish accent"?
> >
> >Rod wrote "Scottish accents"
> >
> >>

> So I did. There was a variety of them.

> I's a long time since I've lived in Scotland, but I can still identify
> most of the main ones, or at least say which part of the country
> they're from. It's tricky with actors in dramas of course, because
> some of them may be trying to put on different accents from their
> natural ones, or may have spent time living in England and become
> accustomed to using English accents in order to get the parts.

> Rod.

I was involved, a great many years ago, in an amateur theatrical production
where the "Irish maid's" accent would often vary from Belfast to County
Cork in the space of a paragraph.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle