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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

SubjectAuthor
* OT: JR West returns late driver’sRecliner
`* OT: JR West returns late driver’sAnna Noyd-Dryver
 +* OT: JR West returns late driver’sRecliner
 |+* OT: JR West returns late driver?s 33p fineChristopher A. Lee
 ||`* OT: JR West returns late driver’sRecliner
 || `* OT: JR West returns late driver’sAnna Noyd-Dryver
 ||  `- _OT:_JR_West_returns_late_driver’s_33p_fineCertes
 |`- OT: JR West returns late driver’sAnna Noyd-Dryver
 `* _OT:_JR_West_returns_late_driver’s_33p_finhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
  `- OT: JR West returns late driver’sRecliner

1
OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3rcvd$44q$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:51:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:51 UTC

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3ru3p$gg8$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:43:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:43 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>

"Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
trains are always on time".

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3s7gn$s5$2@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:24:23 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:24 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>
>
> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
> trains are always on time".
>

In my limited experience, the Shinkansen are very punctual, the classic
narrow-gauge trains less so.

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver?s 33p fine

<2og36hp2tkh9at604cl7a8vhn5plhfaodp@4ax.com>

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:51:02 -0500
From: c.l...@fairpoint.net (Christopher A. Lee)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver???s 33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:50:58 -0500
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 by: Christopher A. Lee - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:50 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:24:23 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>>
>>
>> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
>> trains are always on time".
>>
>
>In my limited experience, the Shinkansen are very punctual, the classic
>narrow-gauge trains less so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment

"Investigators speculate that the driver may have been trying to make
up this lost time by increasing the train's speed beyond customary
limits."

"Drivers for JR West face financial penalties for lateness as well as
being forced into harsh and humiliating retraining programs known as
nikkin kyoiku (????, "dayshift education"), which include weeding and
grass-cutting duties during the day.[4][5] The final report officially
concluded that the retraining system was one probable cause of the
crash.[6] This program consisted of severe verbal abuse, forcing the
employees to repent by writing extensive reports. Also during these
times, drivers were forced to perform minor tasks, particularly
involving cleaning, instead of their normal jobs. Many experts saw the
process of nikkin kyoiku as a punishment and psychological torture,
not retraining.[2] The driver had also received a non-essential phone
call from the general control station at the time he was rounding the
bend.[7]"

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3sgp9$c2i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:02:33 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:02 UTC

Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:24:23 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
>>> trains are always on time".
>>>
>>
>> In my limited experience, the Shinkansen are very punctual, the classic
>> narrow-gauge trains less so.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment
>
> "Investigators speculate that the driver may have been trying to make
> up this lost time by increasing the train's speed beyond customary
> limits."
>
> "Drivers for JR West face financial penalties for lateness as well as
> being forced into harsh and humiliating retraining programs known as
> nikkin kyoiku (????, "dayshift education"), which include weeding and
> grass-cutting duties during the day.[4][5] The final report officially
> concluded that the retraining system was one probable cause of the
> crash.[6] This program consisted of severe verbal abuse, forcing the
> employees to repent by writing extensive reports. Also during these
> times, drivers were forced to perform minor tasks, particularly
> involving cleaning, instead of their normal jobs. Many experts saw the
> process of nikkin kyoiku as a punishment and psychological torture,
> not retraining.[2] The driver had also received a non-essential phone
> call from the general control station at the time he was rounding the
> bend.[7]"
>

Yes, management clearly prioritised punctuality over safety, presumably
assuming the latter was a given. We have probably developed a similar
degree of complacency here.

For example, I must admit that the recent Lumo overspeeding incident was a
shock to me, in that I had no idea that the automatic safety systems don't
prevent such events. That was very nearly a serious crash.

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3sj9k$1hiv$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk (hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re:_OT:_JR_West_returns_late_driver’s_33p_fin
e
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:45:24 +0100
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:45 UTC

On 21/04/2022 16:43, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>
>
> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
> trains are always on time".
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

The concept of DB trains running on time has also become a myth, in my
experience.

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3sjop$1ck$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:53:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:53 UTC

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 16:43, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>>
>>
>> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
>> trains are always on time".
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> The concept of DB trains running on time has also become a myth, in my
> experience.
>

Yes, a long time ago.

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3tmp4$p9n$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:51:00 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:51 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35253452-c0c5-11ec-b4e3-203ad1be3cbc?shareToken=2ef2469e0cc55daa99b3f53b7f3140a9>
>>>
>>
>> "Japanese trains are always on time" is, IMX, a myth on par with "Swiss
>> trains are always on time".
>>
>
> In my limited experience, the Shinkansen are very punctual, the classic
> narrow-gauge trains less so.
>
>

On my last trip, 50% of my Shinkansen trips were between 10 and 20 minutes
late (3/6). Only one out of ~15 non-Shinkansen trains was late.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3tmp4$p9n$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s
33p fine
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:51 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> For example, I must admit that the recent Lumo overspeeding incident was a
> shock to me, in that I had no idea that the automatic safety systems don't
> prevent such events. That was very nearly a serious crash.
>
>

ETCS would have prevented it, as would ATP.

TPWS may have been able to prevent it, depending on the exact circumstances
of the incident and the TPWS fitment being intended to catch those
particular circumstances.

TPWS is limited in that it's only effective at the specific location at
which the grids are located, and at a specific speed at each location; as
it's only fitted on approach to signals/speed restrictions (ie it's always
set higher than the speed it's protecting, it's never positioned at the
commencement of the speed), it won't protect against trains which, for
whatever reason, accelerate (or fail to continue braking) after passing the
grids.

There are also suggestions in the forum thread linked from the other thread
here, that TPWS isn't fitted where there is a flashing yellow approach to a
junction speed, which seems an odd decision if it's true.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: OT: JR West returns late driver’s 33p fine

<t3v74b$tam$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re:_OT:_JR_West_returns_late_driver’s_33p_fine
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 22:36:11 +0100
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 by: Certes - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:36 UTC

On 22/04/2022 08:51, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For example, I must admit that the recent Lumo overspeeding incident was a
>> shock to me, in that I had no idea that the automatic safety systems don't
>> prevent such events. That was very nearly a serious crash.
>
> ETCS would have prevented it, as would ATP.
>
> TPWS may have been able to prevent it, depending on the exact circumstances
> of the incident and the TPWS fitment being intended to catch those
> particular circumstances.
>
> TPWS is limited in that it's only effective at the specific location at
> which the grids are located, and at a specific speed at each location; as
> it's only fitted on approach to signals/speed restrictions (ie it's always
> set higher than the speed it's protecting, it's never positioned at the
> commencement of the speed), it won't protect against trains which, for
> whatever reason, accelerate (or fail to continue braking) after passing the
> grids.
>
> There are also suggestions in the forum thread linked from the other thread
> here, that TPWS isn't fitted where there is a flashing yellow approach to a
> junction speed, which seems an odd decision if it's true.

I know some TPWS installations are always on (usually approaching a
speed restriction) and others operate only when the signal in advance is
at danger (allowing fast running when that signal's off).

Can TPWS be set to operate only when a signal shows other aspects such
as flashing yellow, or equivalently when points are set for the loop?

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