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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

SubjectAuthor
* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRoland Perry
+* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameTweed
|`* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRoland Perry
| `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameTweed
|  `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameCharles Ellson
|   +- OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameTweed
|   `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameGraeme Wall
|    `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameCharles Ellson
|     +- OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameCharles Ellson
|     `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRoland Perry
|      `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameAnna Noyd-Dryver
|       `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameTheo
|        `- OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameAnna Noyd-Dryver
`* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameTheo
 `* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRoland Perry
  +* OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gamenib
  |`- OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRoland Perry
  `- OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum gameRecliner

1
OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<W1MwbNyJMNaiFADF@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 06:22:17 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 05:22 UTC

Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
ministers) who can do arithmetic

Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:

An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."

Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
£29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).

So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
you believe their theory.

On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
done.

ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
Freelander are almost £200 each!

[1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
done at main dealers.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 06:06:14 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 06:06 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>
> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>
> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>
> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>
> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
> you believe their theory.
>
> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
> done.
>
> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>
> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
> done at main dealers.

Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<YmhDPy189PaiFACq@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 09:31:56 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 61
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:31 UTC

In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>
>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>
>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>
>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>
>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>> you believe their theory.
>>
>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>> done.
>>
>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>
>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>> done at main dealers.
>
>Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.

I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
involving a social conscience.

See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.

Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.

Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
windscreen]
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<PJg*hOKMy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: 27 Apr 2022 12:25:17 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:25 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).

I generally avoid cut-price MOTs, because they barely break even for the
garage even at full price and a cut-price is an incentive to 'find' more
things wrong with it.

> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
> you believe their theory.

There are certain faults which become bigger if they are left for longer -
eg bodywork corrosion, which left for another year will snowball into a
bigger job. Other parts won't - a knackered pair of brake pads will just
become more knackered, although maybe it'll then damage the disc...

Although phasing such that cars need MOTs at (say) 3, 5, 7 and 8, 9, 10,
11... years has a certain logic. But it really doesn't make a lot of a
difference.

Another knock-on is the sales of used cars, where the MOT history is a very
useful record of how the vehicle has been kept and what miles it has done.
Maybe in future the mileage records will become relevant for road pricing
too.

Theo

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<8Ivqkh7H9SaiFAUO@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:55:51 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 70
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:55 UTC

In message <PJg*hOKMy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:25:17 on Wed,
27 Apr 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>
>I generally avoid cut-price MOTs, because they barely break even for the
>garage even at full price and a cut-price is an incentive to 'find' more
>things wrong with it.

I've won bet with myself - that this would be one of the first comments!

As for the breaking even, what matters for MOTs is making use of the
assets (the equipment and staff training) to the fullest extent, and
that's where the 'mass market' testers have an economy of scale.

And of course *if* they are also in a position to supply new tyres,
brake pads etc most people will choose them rather than drive to an
alternative provider, especially if they can do it same day.

>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>> you believe their theory.
>
>There are certain faults which become bigger if they are left for longer -
>eg bodywork corrosion, which left for another year will snowball into a
>bigger job. Other parts won't - a knackered pair of brake pads will just
>become more knackered, although maybe it'll then damage the disc...

Yes, they will, got the t-shirt. But modern brakes have built-in wear
detectors, so it's unlikely that people will drive the car in that
condition anyway.

>Although phasing such that cars need MOTs at (say) 3, 5, 7 and 8, 9, 10,
>11... years has a certain logic. But it really doesn't make a lot of a
>difference.

It makes a huge difference to the workflow year on year. And losing just
the 4 & 6yr tests isn't going to make much of a dent in household
budgets, which is what this proposal *should* be all about. (In practice
I'm afraid it's probably about conning the electorate).

>Another knock-on is the sales of used cars, where the MOT history is a very
>useful record of how the vehicle has been kept and what miles it has done.

There's nothing to stop people keeping the invoices from their annual
service. Or is it annual? Just did a straw poll with VW, and they say if
you drive less than 9.3k a year (a rather un-round number!) you should
have services at 9.3k miles or annually (whichever is the sooner) the
first three years, and then switch to 10k/annual subsequently. To be
frank, I think that's just unnecessarily confusing.

Or if you are routinely doing more than 9.3k a year you can instead rely
on their built-in service interval warning, and as a backstop every
18.3k miles or 2yrs if sooner. Their excuse for this is "better engine
oils", so it's not about any other aspect of the vehicle wearing out
with use.

ps. It occurs to me that 9,300 miles is 15,000km. I don't think it's
very clever not to round it to 10k for a British audience. Apart from
the one time they do!

>Maybe in future the mileage records will become relevant for road pricing
>too.

I think they'd need to be at a much finer granularity than that.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<t4bh38$e77$1@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@ingram-bromley.co.uk (nib)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:39:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: nib - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:39 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:55:51 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

> ps. It occurs to me that 9,300 miles is 15,000km. I don't think it's
> very clever not to round it to 10k for a British audience. Apart from
> the one time they do!

Not uncommon! My Fiesta was 12,500 miles (ie 20000 km).

nib

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<t4buuk$5qb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:36:20 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 82
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:36 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <PJg*hOKMy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:25:17 on Wed,
> 27 Apr 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>
>> I generally avoid cut-price MOTs, because they barely break even for the
>> garage even at full price and a cut-price is an incentive to 'find' more
>> things wrong with it.
>
> I've won bet with myself - that this would be one of the first comments!
>
> As for the breaking even, what matters for MOTs is making use of the
> assets (the equipment and staff training) to the fullest extent, and
> that's where the 'mass market' testers have an economy of scale.
>
> And of course *if* they are also in a position to supply new tyres,
> brake pads etc most people will choose them rather than drive to an
> alternative provider, especially if they can do it same day.
>
>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>> you believe their theory.
>>
>> There are certain faults which become bigger if they are left for longer -
>> eg bodywork corrosion, which left for another year will snowball into a
>> bigger job. Other parts won't - a knackered pair of brake pads will just
>> become more knackered, although maybe it'll then damage the disc...
>
> Yes, they will, got the t-shirt. But modern brakes have built-in wear
> detectors, so it's unlikely that people will drive the car in that
> condition anyway.
>
>> Although phasing such that cars need MOTs at (say) 3, 5, 7 and 8, 9, 10,
>> 11... years has a certain logic. But it really doesn't make a lot of a
>> difference.
>
> It makes a huge difference to the workflow year on year. And losing just
> the 4 & 6yr tests isn't going to make much of a dent in household
> budgets, which is what this proposal *should* be all about. (In practice
> I'm afraid it's probably about conning the electorate).
>
>> Another knock-on is the sales of used cars, where the MOT history is a very
>> useful record of how the vehicle has been kept and what miles it has done.
>
> There's nothing to stop people keeping the invoices from their annual
> service. Or is it annual? Just did a straw poll with VW, and they say if
> you drive less than 9.3k a year (a rather un-round number!) you should
> have services at 9.3k miles or annually (whichever is the sooner) the
> first three years, and then switch to 10k/annual subsequently. To be
> frank, I think that's just unnecessarily confusing.
>
> Or if you are routinely doing more than 9.3k a year you can instead rely
> on their built-in service interval warning, and as a backstop every
> 18.3k miles or 2yrs if sooner. Their excuse for this is "better engine
> oils", so it's not about any other aspect of the vehicle wearing out
> with use.
>
> ps. It occurs to me that 9,300 miles is 15,000km.

Yes, a nice round number.

> I don't think it's
> very clever not to round it to 10k for a British audience. Apart from
> the one time they do!

I suppose, if they were going to round it, it would have to be 9k miles,
not 10k.

>
>> Maybe in future the mileage records will become relevant for road pricing
>> too.
>
> I think they'd need to be at a much finer granularity than that.

Yes

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>
>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>
>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>
>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>
>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>> you believe their theory.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>> done.
>>>
>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>
>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>> done at main dealers.
>>
>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>
> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
> involving a social conscience.
>
> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>
> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>
> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
> windscreen]

It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
seems a bit of an outlier.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:58:30 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:58 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>>
>>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>>
>>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>>
>>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>>
>>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>>> you believe their theory.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>>> done.
>>>>
>>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>>
>>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>>> done at main dealers.
>>>
>>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>>
>> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
>> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
>> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
>> involving a social conscience.
>>
>> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>>
>> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
>> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
>> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
>> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
>> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>>
>> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
>> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
>> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
>> windscreen]
>
>It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>seems a bit of an outlier.
>
Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
UK to rot quicker.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:11:18 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:11 UTC

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>>>
>>>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>>>
>>>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>>>
>>>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>>>
>>>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>>>> you believe their theory.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>>>> done.
>>>>>
>>>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>>>> done at main dealers.
>>>>
>>>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>>>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>>>
>>> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
>>> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
>>> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
>>> involving a social conscience.
>>>
>>> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>>>
>>> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
>>> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
>>> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
>>> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
>>> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>>>
>>> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
>>> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
>>> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
>>> windscreen]
>>
>> It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>> years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>> seems a bit of an outlier.
>>
> Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
> UK to rot quicker.
>

I wonder if the change in MOT frequency was something they were planning
anyway.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

<t4c6lo$48k$2@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:48:08 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:48 UTC

On 27/04/2022 19:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>>>
>>>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>>>
>>>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>>>
>>>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>>>
>>>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>>>> you believe their theory.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>>>> done.
>>>>>
>>>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>>>> done at main dealers.
>>>>
>>>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>>>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>>>
>>> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
>>> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
>>> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
>>> involving a social conscience.
>>>
>>> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>>>
>>> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
>>> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
>>> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
>>> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
>>> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>>>
>>> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
>>> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
>>> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
>>> windscreen]
>>
>> It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>> years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>> seems a bit of an outlier.
>>
> Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
> UK to rot quicker.

IIRC when first introduced it was after 5 years, not three, but too many
vehicles were failing it badly.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:53:42 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:53 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:48:08 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/04/2022 19:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>>>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>>>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>>>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>>>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>>>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>>>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>>>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>>>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>>>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>>>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>>>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>>>>> you believe their theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>>>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>>>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>>>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>>>>> done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>>>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>>>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>>>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>>>>> done at main dealers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>>>>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>>>>
>>>> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
>>>> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
>>>> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
>>>> involving a social conscience.
>>>>
>>>> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>>>>
>>>> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
>>>> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
>>>> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
>>>> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
>>>> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>>>>
>>>> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
>>>> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
>>>> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
>>>> windscreen]
>>>
>>> It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>>> years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>>> seems a bit of an outlier.
>>>
>> Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
>> UK to rot quicker.
>
>IIRC when first introduced it was after 5 years, not three, but too many
>vehicles were failing it badly.
>
Wonkypaedia says 7 years from 1962 on then 3 years from April 1967. It
also says it was originally 10 years but voluntary which doesn't quite
sound right.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 23:13:34 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:13 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:53:42 +0100, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:48:08 +0100, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 27/04/2022 19:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4amgm$bvb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:06:14 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, it's transport-related, and it helps to have lobbyists (and
>>>>>>> ministers) who can do arithmetic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zero-cost (to HMG) cost of living proposals:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An idea proposed by Grant Shapps would cut the requirement for
>>>>>>> motorists to commission an MOT test on their car every two years
>>>>>>> rather than every year, halving the long-term cost of the tests.
>>>>>>> The AA said: "Though well intended, moving the yearly £55 spend
>>>>>>> on an MOT to every two years could make costs worse for drivers
>>>>>>> with higher repair bills, make our roads more dangerous and
>>>>>>> would put jobs in the garage industry at risk."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Saving £55 (is there anyone who actually spends that much - ATS charges
>>>>>>> £29.99) is the tip of the iceberg compared to alleged higher maintenance
>>>>>>> costs (I had my wife's car diagnosed yesterday by an independent garage,
>>>>>>> and having spent £85 working out what might be wrong, got charged £50
>>>>>>> for an oil change plus £27 quid for Rishi (the VAT).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So fewer MOTs could mean more work for the garage industry, not less, if
>>>>>>> you believe their theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if such a change wasn't phased, demand for MOTs in
>>>>>>> 2023 would plummet (you'd only have the 3yr-old-vehicle ones to do) and
>>>>>>> that would indeed put people[1] out of work, and of course potentially
>>>>>>> create a shortage in 2024 when all those postponed tests needed to be
>>>>>>> done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ps Thinking about it, the biggest hit could be tyre dealers, because a
>>>>>>> lot of people only check them because of MOTs, and a set of four can
>>>>>>> easily be £350 for an average family car. The poshest tyres for my
>>>>>>> Freelander are almost £200 each!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] And independent garages/test centres, I expect most 3yr-old-MOTs are
>>>>>>> done at main dealers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has for years has a 24 month gap between their equivalent of the
>>>>>> MOT. Modern petrol cars have a 2 year service interval.
>>>>>
>>>>> I expect they are bit more severe than us when it comes to spot-checking
>>>>> for things like worn tyres (which wear out per mile, not per annum), and
>>>>> the population is generally more law-abiding when it comes to matters
>>>>> involving a social conscience.
>>>>>
>>>>> See also: why they don't need ticket gates at stations as much as we do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Electric cars might one day have an even longer service interval (and
>>>>> obviously they don't need emissions tests), but their tyres still wear
>>>>> out. Recent articles about cars-that-failed-their-first-test claimed a
>>>>> significant percentage were because of mis-aligned headlights. That'll
>>>>> be something which was wrong from when they left the factory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's things like cracked windscreens and illegally spaced number
>>>>> plates, both of which are entirely neither age nor mileage related. [OK,
>>>>> if you've done zero miles, maybe less likely to have picked up a cracked
>>>>> windscreen]
>>>>
>>>> It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>>>> years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>>>> seems a bit of an outlier.
>>>>
>>> Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
>>> UK to rot quicker.
>>
>>IIRC when first introduced it was after 5 years, not three, but too many
>>vehicles were failing it badly.
>>
>Wonkypaedia says 7 years from 1962 on then 3 years from April 1967. It
>also says it was originally 10 years but voluntary which doesn't quite
>sound right.
>
Having now tracked back to s.66 Road Traffic Act 1960 (as enacted), I
see nothing "voluntary" about the tests in 1960 as there were
penalties of fines or imprisonment (second or subsequent offence) for
not having a valid MOT certificate issued for a vehicle subject to
testing.

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:30:23 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:30 UTC

In message <t4bh38$e77$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:39:52 on Wed, 27 Apr
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:55:51 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> ps. It occurs to me that 9,300 miles is 15,000km. I don't think it's
>> very clever not to round it to 10k for a British audience. Apart from
>> the one time they do!
>
>Not uncommon! My Fiesta was 12,500 miles (ie 20000 km).

I'm not querying the possibility of two measurement units, but 12,500
miles is co-incidentally a reasonably round number [nor did they choose
12,400 which would be a closer conversion], and 9,300 isn't.

Even 9,500 would have been better, if they couldn't bring themselves to
round it up to 10,000 for the UK audience.

--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:34:49 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:34 UTC

In message <2nej6ht054gnl25qtrjg86fktklivmj0tr@4ax.com>, at 22:53:42 on
Wed, 27 Apr 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>> It’s also every two years in France, the first test after the vehicle is 4
>>>> years old. Likewise in Spain, except it becomes annual after year 10. UK
>>>> seems a bit of an outlier.
>>>>
>>> Historically, climate and manufacture probably caused vehicles in the
>>> UK to rot quicker.
>>
>>IIRC when first introduced it was after 5 years, not three, but too many
>>vehicles were failing it badly.
>>
>Wonkypaedia says 7 years from 1962 on then 3 years from April 1967. It
>also says it was originally 10 years but voluntary which doesn't quite
>sound right.

Wikipedia quotes a non-official source which reads:

"When it was introduced in 1960, the MOT test - now commonly
referred to as simply an 'MOT' - was a fairly basic test that
covered just a handful of checks. Back then, an MOT was carried
out every 10 years - and it covered little more than the brakes,
lights, and steering system.

Over the years, the MOT check list has become much more regular
and comprehensive. In the late '60s, tyre checks were introduced
- and in the late '70s, the test was expanded to include
windscreen wipers, indicators, brake lights, the exhaust system,
and the overall condition of the car's chassis.

More recently, a vehicle's emissions and electronic systems have
come under greater scrutiny, and the full test now covers 20
different parts or systems on or in the car - each with numerous
sub-points that are separately assessed.
--
Roland Perry

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:40:45 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:40 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> More recently, a vehicle's emissions and electronic systems have
> come under greater scrutiny, and the full test now covers 20
> different parts or systems on or in the car - each with numerous
> sub-points that are separately assessed.

Chatting to the MoT inspector while he was testing my silly car recently,
he said it was sometimes a challenge when he got a car like mine which
isn't fitted with many things which he usually tests, such as windscreen
(and therefore washers), windows, doors etc. However testing the lights is
easy as you can see them all whilst standing next to the drivers seat! Also
he said that remembering which features need testing and which don't on
older cars (basically whatever was a legal requirement at the time, cf.
recent discussion about mirrors).

When I used to take a S2A Landrover for MOT there were three tricks - if
they complained about the cracked mirrors, remove them; if they complained
about the leaky swivel hubs, go home, drain the oil out, wipe clean and
retest; if the brakes failed the test (usually just tested by the tester
driving up and down the forecourt, rather than on the rollers; and usually
failed on balance rather than outright performance), put the drums and
shoes in the dishwasher and re-fit!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: 28 Apr 2022 21:25:19 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 20:25 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Chatting to the MoT inspector while he was testing my silly car recently,
> he said it was sometimes a challenge when he got a car like mine which
> isn't fitted with many things which he usually tests, such as windscreen
> (and therefore washers), windows, doors etc. However testing the lights is
> easy as you can see them all whilst standing next to the drivers seat! Also
> he said that remembering which features need testing and which don't on
> older cars (basically whatever was a legal requirement at the time, cf.
> recent discussion about mirrors).

The MOT tester's manual used to be full of things like 'if the vehicle was
designated by the Science Museum of London to have been built before 1895,
then...', presumably for those early cars that had no brakes, or steering,
or whatever. The relatively recent change that MOTs aren't required for
cars made over 40 years ago simplified all of that logic quite a bit.

> When I used to take a S2A Landrover for MOT there were three tricks - if
> they complained about the cracked mirrors, remove them; if they complained
> about the leaky swivel hubs, go home, drain the oil out, wipe clean and
> retest; if the brakes failed the test (usually just tested by the tester
> driving up and down the forecourt, rather than on the rollers; and usually
> failed on balance rather than outright performance), put the drums and
> shoes in the dishwasher and re-fit!

Squeaky clean shoes?

Theo

Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: OT: Grant Shapps and a zero sum game
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:33:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:33 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Chatting to the MoT inspector while he was testing my silly car recently,
>> he said it was sometimes a challenge when he got a car like mine which
>> isn't fitted with many things which he usually tests, such as windscreen
>> (and therefore washers), windows, doors etc. However testing the lights is
>> easy as you can see them all whilst standing next to the drivers seat! Also
>> he said that remembering which features need testing and which don't on
>> older cars (basically whatever was a legal requirement at the time, cf.
>> recent discussion about mirrors).
>
> The MOT tester's manual used to be full of things like 'if the vehicle was
> designated by the Science Museum of London to have been built before 1895,
> then...', presumably for those early cars that had no brakes, or steering,
> or whatever. The relatively recent change that MOTs aren't required for
> cars made over 40 years ago simplified all of that logic quite a bit.
>

Many owners of exempt vehicles still get an MoT, just for peace of mind.

>> When I used to take a S2A Landrover for MOT there were three tricks - if
>> they complained about the cracked mirrors, remove them; if they complained
>> about the leaky swivel hubs, go home, drain the oil out, wipe clean and
>> retest; if the brakes failed the test (usually just tested by the tester
>> driving up and down the forecourt, rather than on the rollers; and usually
>> failed on balance rather than outright performance), put the drums and
>> shoes in the dishwasher and re-fit!
>
> Squeaky clean shoes?
>

The dishwasher shelves make crunchy noises when sliding for several washes
afterwards.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

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