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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<w1n5r7amn3aiFAGJ@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28798&group=uk.railway#28798

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 06:38:46 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 48
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 05:38 UTC

In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at 17:53:46 on
Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>"The Tube" in common parlance
>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed to
>>>>National
>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>overground
>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the outcome of
>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>
>>>It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>surface lines:
>>>
>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>
>>Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>of technologies.
>>
>>Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>
>>I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>
>Blimey.
>
>So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>un-relayed by hard physical component?

Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using several
technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they aren't
point-to-point.

I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by the way,
I think I said "connection" would be the best word.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4g4gf$b5l$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28801&group=uk.railway#28801

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:35:43 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 07:35 UTC

On 29/04/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at 17:53:46 on
> Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway
>>>>> experts) has
>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed to
>>>>> National
>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>> overground
>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>> outcome of
>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>
>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>> surface lines:
>>>>
>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>
>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>> of technologies.
>>>
>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>
>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>
>> Blimey.
>>
>> So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>> totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>> from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>> un-relayed by hard physical component?
>
> Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using several
> technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they aren't
> point-to-point.
>
> I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by the way,
> I think I said "connection" would be the best word.

Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4g665$ok9$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28804&group=uk.railway#28804

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:04:04 +0100
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 by: NY - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:04 UTC

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1l94PhaPk3aiFAn5@perry.uk...
> Another one that slips out sometimes is "top/bottom of the hour", which I
> think would probably be merely incomprehensible.

Maybe incomprehensible to anyone who isn't familiar with an analogue clock
mounted on a wall. 12 o'clock (xx:00) is at the top of the clock ("top of
the hour") and 6 o'clock (xx:30) is at the bottom of the clock ("bottom of
the hour").

OK, so it's a rather colloquial, informal expression (I've only heard "top
of the hour", not "bottom of the hour"), but it's fairly intuitive. People
who have never seen an analogue clock are rather buggered, though!

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:22:59 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:22 UTC

tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed to National
>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock, overground
>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the outcome of
>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>
>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>> surface lines:
>>>
>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>
>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>> of technologies.
>>
>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>
>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!

Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers, except that the word cloud now
seems to be replacing web at a general catchall for some kind of networked
service.

> Having been involved in broadcast engineering for many years its just
> called a "Line" doesn't matter what the transport medium, its still a
> Line, even from a Radio Car!
>
> They used to have a Lines department at the BBC may still do that!...
>
>
> Also sometimes referred to as "Landline" some emergency services refer
> to that as a land l based phone line!..

I was peripherally involved in providing a connections for a small number
of broadcast events. The media used stretched from ISDN lines installed
specifically for the event, to trying to ensure sufficient bandwidth on a
shared ethernet medium, to stringing armoured fibre optic cable across a
graveyard and patching it into someone else’s optical switch. I had a
colleague who was involved in tests of a very high definition video camera
across the JANET network. He said the camera was the size of a small car.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<2wBoKWg+K8aiFAXd@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:49:34 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:49 UTC

In message <t4g665$ok9$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:04:04 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1l94PhaPk3aiFAn5@perry.uk...
>> Another one that slips out sometimes is "top/bottom of the hour",
>>which I think would probably be merely incomprehensible.
>
>Maybe incomprehensible to anyone who isn't familiar with an analogue
>clock mounted on a wall. 12 o'clock (xx:00) is at the top of the clock
>("top of the hour") and 6 o'clock (xx:30) is at the bottom of the clock
>("bottom of the hour").
>
>OK, so it's a rather colloquial, informal expression (I've only heard
>"top of the hour", not "bottom of the hour"), but it's fairly
>intuitive. People who have never seen an analogue clock are rather
>buggered, though!

Agreed, that "top of the hour" is much more commonplace, but they were
bandying around "bottom of the hour" behind the scenes on a news channel
that had half-hourly bulletins.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:19:01 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:19 UTC

In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>to National
>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>overground
>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the outcome of
>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>
>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>> surface lines:
>>>>
>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>
>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>> of technologies.
>>>
>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>
>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>
>Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,

That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
Internet.

>except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>catchall for some kind of networked service.

That's shorthand for "Cloud services".

>> Having been involved in broadcast engineering for many years its just
>> called a "Line" doesn't matter what the transport medium, its still a
>> Line, even from a Radio Car!
>>
>> They used to have a Lines department at the BBC may still do that!...
>>
>> Also sometimes referred to as "Landline" some emergency services refer
>> to that as a land l based phone line!..
>
>I was peripherally involved in providing a connections for a small number
>of broadcast events. The media used stretched from ISDN lines installed
>specifically for the event, to trying to ensure sufficient bandwidth on a
>shared ethernet medium, to stringing armoured fibre optic cable across a
>graveyard and patching it into someone else’s optical switch. I had a
>colleague who was involved in tests of a very high definition video camera
>across the JANET network. He said the camera was the size of a small car.

The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
Ethernet in and out.

Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.

Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.

There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
(which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
fibre was already there!
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<7wer6JjCw8aiFAWW@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:29 UTC

In message <t4g4gf$b5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:43 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/04/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at 17:53:46
>>on Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance (and the BBC News site is write
>>>>>>for lay people, not railway experts) has long meant "the whole
>>>>>>London Underground system" - ie as opposed to National Rail
>>>>>>(formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>overground stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt
>>>>>>whether the outcome of being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>> of technologies.
>>>>
>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>
>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>
>>> Blimey.
>>>
>>> So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>>> totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>>> from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>>> un-relayed by hard physical component?

>> Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using
>>several technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they
>>aren't point-to-point.

>> I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by the
>>way, I think I said "connection" would be the best word.
>
>Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.

I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
live radio interviews.

I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
connection) but that's another story. It might be different
shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>> to National
>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>> overground
>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the outcome of
>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>> of technologies.
>>>>
>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>
>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>
>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>
> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
> Internet.
>
>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>
> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".

But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
sort to the top of the list.

> [snip]
> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
> Ethernet in and out.

Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?

> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>
> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.

Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
overhead, making 32 channels in all.

> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
> fibre was already there!

Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: c.l...@fairpoint.net (Christopher A. Lee)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
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 by: Christopher A. Lee - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:41 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t4g4gf$b5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:43 on Fri, 29 Apr
>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 29/04/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at 17:53:46
>>>on Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance (and the BBC News site is write
>>>>>>>for lay people, not railway experts) has long meant "the whole
>>>>>>>London Underground system" - ie as opposed to National Rail
>>>>>>>(formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>>overground stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt
>>>>>>>whether the outcome of being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>
>>>> Blimey.
>>>>
>>>> So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>>>> totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>>>> from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>>>> un-relayed by hard physical component?
>
>>> Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using
>>>several technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they
>>>aren't point-to-point.
>
>>> I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by the
>>>way, I think I said "connection" would be the best word.
>>
>>Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.
>
>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>live radio interviews.
>
>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.

You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
like copying a copy of a VHS tape.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<AQtlCFpMo+aiFAyw@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:37:16 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:37 UTC

In message <t4gjdj$ul5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:11 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>>> to National
>>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>> overground
>>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>>>>outcome of
>>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>
>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>
>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>> Internet.
>>
>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>
>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>
>But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>sort to the top of the list.

Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
to launch their mass market products.

From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:

<https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>

[I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
workshops and convening suitable panellists]

However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
end-point clients and servers.

>> [snip]
>> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
>> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
>> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
>> Ethernet in and out.
>
>Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?

There would have been a PRI connected into one side of the box, and an
Ethernet the other side. So we have a mirror image:

+----------+ +-----+
| Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
| router A | +-----+ numbers
+----------+ .
^ .
| .
Eventually, BT dial-up
a direct infrastructure
connection here
here .
| .
v .
+----------+ +-----+
| Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
| router B | +-----+ numbers
+----------+

And if either router wanted to send some packets to the other, it used
an extant dialled-up connection, or on demand dialled fresh/additional
ones. This numbers could of course have been anywhere connected to the
BT switched voice infrastructure, but in this instance we limited
ourselves to local numbers a few miles away across Central London.

>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>
>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>
>Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>overhead, making 32 channels in all.

My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
felt like 128k x 16.

>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>> fibre was already there!
>
>Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:51:05 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:51 UTC

On 29/04/2022 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4g4gf$b5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:43 on Fri, 29 Apr
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/04/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at 17:53:46
>>> on  Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance  (and the BBC News site is write
>>>>>>> for lay people, not railway  experts) has  long meant "the whole
>>>>>>> London Underground system" - ie as opposed to  National  Rail
>>>>>>> (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>> overground  stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt
>>>>>>> whether the  outcome of  being hit by one rather than the other
>>>>>>> would be much different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep
>>>>>> and sub
>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that,
>>>>> much
>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is
>>>>> breaking
>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>
>>>> Blimey.
>>>>
>>>> So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>>>> totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>>>> from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>>>> un-relayed by hard physical component?
>
>>>  Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using
>>> several  technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they
>>> aren't  point-to-point.
>
>>>  I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by the
>>> way,  I think I said "connection" would be the best word.
>>
>> Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.
>
> I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
> deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
> live radio interviews.
>
> I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
> connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
> quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
> connection) but that's another story. It might be different
> shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.

Or just crap microphones in the laptops.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:00:46 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:00 UTC

In article <1l94PhaPk3aiFAn5@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
<roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>In message <U94mBJNz5waiFwC0@bancom.co.uk>, at 23:00:19 on Thu, 28 Apr
>2022, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>
>>>Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>of technologies.
>>>
>>>Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>
>>>I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>
>>Having been involved in broadcast engineering for many years its just
>>called a "Line" doesn't matter what the transport medium, its still a
>>Line, even from a Radio Car!
>
>I know, but I'm allowed to think that inflicting the expression on the
>listening public is irritating.

Well been that way since around 1920 ish...
>
>Another one that slips out sometimes is "top/bottom of the hour", which
>I think would probably be merely incomprehensible.

Dunno! Any idiot knows where the large hand and little hand go don't
they;?...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:03:44 +0100
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 by: Certes - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:03 UTC

On 29/04/2022 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4gjdj$ul5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:11 on Fri, 29 Apr
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>>>> to National
>>>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>>> overground
>>>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>>>>> outcome of
>>>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>
>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>
>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>> sort to the top of the list.
>
> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
> to launch their mass market products.
>
> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>
> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>
> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>
> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
> end-point clients and servers.
>
>>> [snip]
>>> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
>>> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
>>> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
>>> Ethernet in and out.
>>
>> Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?
>
> There would have been a PRI connected into one side of the box, and an
> Ethernet the other side. So we have a mirror image:
>
> +----------+ +-----+
> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
> | router A | +-----+ numbers
> +----------+ .
> ^ .
> | .
> Eventually, BT dial-up
> a direct infrastructure
> connection here
> here .
> | .
> v .
> +----------+ +-----+
> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
> | router B | +-----+ numbers
> +----------+
>
> And if either router wanted to send some packets to the other, it used
> an extant dialled-up connection, or on demand dialled fresh/additional
> ones. This numbers could of course have been anywhere connected to the
> BT switched voice infrastructure, but in this instance we limited
> ourselves to local numbers a few miles away across Central London.
>
>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>
>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>
>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>
> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
> felt like 128k x 16.

The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
(2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.

>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>> fibre was already there!
>>
>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.
>

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:09:10 +0100
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 by: Certes - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:09 UTC

On 29/04/2022 15:00, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <1l94PhaPk3aiFAn5@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>> In message <U94mBJNz5waiFwC0@bancom.co.uk>, at 23:00:19 on Thu, 28 Apr
>> 2022, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>> of technologies.
>>>>
>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>
>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>
>>> Having been involved in broadcast engineering for many years its just
>>> called a "Line" doesn't matter what the transport medium, its still a
>>> Line, even from a Radio Car!
>>
>> I know, but I'm allowed to think that inflicting the expression on the
>> listening public is irritating.
>
> Well been that way since around 1920 ish...
>>
>> Another one that slips out sometimes is "top/bottom of the hour", which
>> I think would probably be merely incomprehensible.
>
> Dunno! Any idiot knows where the large hand and little hand go don't
> they;?...

The phrase probably goes back to Radio 1 (and a few pirate stations
before them) who broadcast news at xx:30, reportedly to lure listeners
away from mainstream stations at xx:00 when they interrupted the groovy
hit parade with news for grandads.

Did the winners of Bottom of the Hour go forward to Rear of the Year?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:06:35 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:06 UTC

>>Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.
>
>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>live radio interviews.
>
>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.

Yes well an *ISDN "line" is yours for the duration of its use like a
dedicated point to point line but for an interview with the public its
changed a lot mow and as were all so used to mobile phone break up
perhaps we need to adopt to it;?..

As annoying as it is!..

* they ISDN's are being phased out now i have heard that BT won't or
cant install new ones so its Voice over IP like phones but a wider n
bandwidth and differing CODEC version!..

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24:22 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:24 UTC

In message <t4gqg9$om6$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:51:05 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/04/2022 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4g4gf$b5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:43 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/04/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <1ucm6h59kftjl8fpohvnhs52r1r7of3k49@4ax.com>, at
>>>>17:53:46 on  Thu, 28 Apr 2022, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:28:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance  (and the BBC News site is write
>>>>>>>>for lay people, not railway  experts) has  long meant "the
>>>>>>>>whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed to  National 
>>>>>>>>Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube
>>>>>>>>stock, overground  stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but
>>>>>>>>I doubt whether the  outcome of  being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both
>>>>>>>deep and sub
>>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely
>>>>>>that, much
>>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs
>>>>>>presenters complaining that "the line" between them and an
>>>>>>interviewee is breaking up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>>
>>>>> Blimey.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you're suggesting that any CLOUD communication "absolutely,
>>>>> totally, is not involving, is unconnected, and singularly transmitted"
>>>>> from spouted source to receiver's ears via radio waves entirely,
>>>>> un-relayed by hard physical component?
>>
>>>>  Of course not, clouds are made from numerous connections using
>>>>several  technologies (between nodes), but the distinction is they
>>>>aren't  point-to-point.
>>
>>>>  I'm not advocating the interviewers refer to it as a cloud, by
>>>>the way,  I think I said "connection" would be the best word.
>>>
>>> Or line, which is immediately comprehensible.

>> I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because
>>nobody deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of
>>these live radio interviews.

>> I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>
>Or just crap microphones in the laptops.

They really aren't that bad. Typically they are both of sufficiently
high quality, and more to the point not susceptible to multi-second
'brownouts', that this isn't the explanation.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and Latimer

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Latimer
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:03:39 +0100
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 by: hounslow3@yahoo.co.u - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:03 UTC

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/health-and-safety/track-worker-struck-by-london-underground-train-28-04-2022/

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>
>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>> Internet.
>>
>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>
>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>
>But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>sort to the top of the list.

"Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
the 50s long before the internet.

>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>> fibre was already there!
>
>Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.

BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.

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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>>live radio interviews.
>>
>>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>
>You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
>like copying a copy of a VHS tape.

Not really. Analogue will consistently lose fidelity with each copy. With
lossy digital compression it'll eventually get to a point whereby all the
info that can be stripped out by various algos has been and it won't get any
worse no matter how many times its compressed or expanded. In theory. I
suppose if 1 or more of the algos makes a hash of it (probably a joke in there)
then all bets are off....

This presupposes the signal is always kept in the digital realm of course and
doesn't go through an AD/DA conversion cycle.

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From: c.l...@fairpoint.net (Christopher A. Lee)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:28:08 -0500
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 by: Christopher A. Lee - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:28 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>>>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>>>live radio interviews.
>>>
>>>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>>
>>You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
>>like copying a copy of a VHS tape.
>
>Not really. Analogue will consistently lose fidelity with each copy. With
>lossy digital compression it'll eventually get to a point whereby all the
>info that can be stripped out by various algos has been and it won't get any
>worse no matter how many times its compressed or expanded. In theory. I
>suppose if 1 or more of the algos makes a hash of it (probably a joke in there)
>then all bets are off....
>
>This presupposes the signal is always kept in the digital realm of course and
>doesn't go through an AD/DA conversion cycle.

I didn't say it was the same as. There are a lot of different
compression algorithms out there, and you lose quality each time it's
converted from one to another.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<hF$9npxCCNbiFAPP@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:00:34 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 06:00 UTC

In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>
>>But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>>had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>sort to the top of the list.
>
>"Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>the 50s long before the internet.

Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).

>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>> fibre was already there!
>>
>>Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey� quotes.
>
>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.

The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4ipis$30q$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28835&group=uk.railway#28835

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:47:40 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:47 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>
>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>> sort to the top of the list.
>>
>> "Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>> doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>> the 50s long before the internet.
>
> Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
> that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
> your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).
>
>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>
>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey� quotes.
>>
>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>
> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.

There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre, with
higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you going to sell
and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper network? The existing
cohort of I don’t see the need for this refuseniks will slowly die off. The
number of people making phone calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going
downwards. BT is already losing customers to the likes of CityFibre, who
offer a technically superior fibre product at lower cost.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<NUwmTW8$xPbiFAL9@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:08:15 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:08 UTC

In message <t4gr81$e9$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:03:44 on Fri, 29 Apr 2022,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:

>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>
>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with
>>>30x64 Kbps B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64
>>>Kbps channel of overhead, making 32 channels in all.

>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme
>>above uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the
>>granularity felt like 128k x 16.
>
>The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
>connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
>voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
>(2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.

I had ISDN at home (long before ADSL) and the dial-on-demand 128k was
just as good [as long as the transit at the far end wasn't contended
too much] as a 64k leased line (we later had several of those between
premises). But the main reason I had it was because so few people used
ISDN that you never got a "busy" signal, which happened a bit in the
evening with analogue dial-up.

Having moved house, I fixed that by having a "secret" dial-up number
installed at the ISP's modem banks.

A couple of years later I had BT's Home Highway, which is ISDN with
lipstick, and quoting from Wikipedia:

As with a standard ISDN2e service, it was possible to mix and match
concurrent connections to provide two concurrent analogue phone
calls, one analogue phone call and one ISDN 64kbit/s call, two 64
kbit/s ISDN calls or one 128 kbit/s ISDN call ... As with ISDN2e,
most brands of device typically allowed the user to automatically
connect and drop the second ISDN channel to switch between 64 kbit/s
and 128 kbit/s, depending on whether one channel was already being
used (for example, for a simultaneous analogue telephone call).

That's why I always think of ISDN as having 64k channels, with two-way
voice capable on just one (I'm not sure what you mean by "two-way
voice with one circuit per direction").
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<RU4hTE9f5PbiFAIj@perry.uk>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:16:15 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:16 UTC

In message <t4ipis$30q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:40 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>>> Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>>
>>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot
>>>>operator. Yes, they
>>>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>>> sort to the top of the list.
>>>
>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>>> doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>>> the 50s long before the internet.
>>
>> Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
>> that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
>> your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).
>>
>>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>>
>>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey� quotes.
>>>
>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that
>>>Just Work
>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>
>> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>
>There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre, with
>higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you going to sell
>and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper network? The existing
>cohort of I don’t see the need for this refuseniks will slowly die off. The
>number of people making phone calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going
>downwards. BT is already losing customers to the likes of CityFibre, who
>offer a technically superior fibre product at lower cost.

'Cityfibre' sounds like they might be cherry-picking easy to connect
premises. One of BT's problems (well, Openreach's really) is rural
customers, some of whom can barely get a connection in the megabits.
Connected of course by long wires with lots of joints.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4j016$edk$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:37:42 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:37 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4ipis$30q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:40 on Sat, 30 Apr
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>>>> Internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>>>
>>>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>>>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot
>>>>> operator. Yes, they
>>>>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>>>> sort to the top of the list.
>>>>
>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>>>> doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>>>> the 50s long before the internet.
>>>
>>> Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
>>> that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
>>> your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).
>>>
>>>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>>>
>>>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey� quotes.
>>>>
>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that
>>>> Just Work
>>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>>
>>> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>>> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>>
>> There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre, with
>> higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you going to sell
>> and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper network? The existing
>> cohort of I don’t see the need for this refuseniks will slowly die off. The
>> number of people making phone calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going
>> downwards. BT is already losing customers to the likes of CityFibre, who
>> offer a technically superior fibre product at lower cost.
>
> 'Cityfibre' sounds like they might be cherry-picking easy to connect
> premises. One of BT's problems (well, Openreach's really) is rural
> customers, some of whom can barely get a connection in the megabits.
> Connected of course by long wires with lots of joints.

CityFibre are cherry picking and are therefore removing vast tracts of
profitable customers from OpenReach. I’m afraid it’s down to BT’s short
sighted management that thought they could carry on sweating the copper
assets with the belief that any alternative providers would be minnows that
could be seen off by the tactics employed in the past. However Cityfibre is
very well funded.

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