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aus+uk / aus.legal / Re: Else v Sydney Trains

SubjectAuthor
* Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
+* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
|+- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
|+* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsMax
||`- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
|`- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsClocky
+* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsMax
|+- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
|`- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
`* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSarah Tonen
 `* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsMax
  +* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSarah Tonen
  |+* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
  ||`* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSarah Tonen
  || `- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
  |`* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
  | `* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsNoodle
  |  +* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
  |  |`* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
  |  | `* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
  |  |  `* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
  |  |   `* Re: Else v Sydney TrainsPhil Allison
  |  |    `- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSylvia Else
  |  `- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsSarah Tonen
  `- Re: Else v Sydney TrainsRod Speed

1
Else v Sydney Trains

<io5psiFkvo4U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:19:11 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 01:19 UTC

https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4

This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
documents relating to internal emergency door release.

Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.

In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
consequences.

1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
involve the use of the information.

2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.

3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
hearsay.

The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
of an agency that does not want to provide it.

Sylvia.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:33 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:
==============
>
> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
> consequences.
>
> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
> involve the use of the information.
>
> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>
> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
> hearsay.
>
> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
> of an agency that does not want to provide it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
** IOW the act is essentially a sham.

In about 1994, my LL decided to build a driveway and a parking area right next to my flat.
Previously for about 47 years, there had been only a walkway with a 6ft high dividing fence.

The LL bought the adjacent property, tore down the fence, concreted the land and had the Ashfield
council make a "crossover" so vehicles could access the new parking area - while removing a huge, healthy
40 year old Wattle tree in the process.
This also meant that vehicles had to reverse out of a *blind exit* across a busy shopping center footpath.

His excuse was he needed a "loading dock" for deliveries to his newsagency - but it was never used for that .
On the first day of use, vehicles began parking across my doorway, blocking access to anything more than 0.5 m wide.

If I had a visitor, other cars would block them in - on one occasion for about 2.5 hours.
Called the police, a total of 3 police crews got involved including the district commander.
Eventually wound up Burwood Court, with me taking an AVO against my ( crazy Italian) next door neighbors.

On a hunch I decided to file a FOI request with Ashfield Council re the approval docs for the " loading dock".
Paid a small fee and got a brown envelope stuffed with unrelated material.

When complaining about this, it became very clear that NO approval docs existed or else they had been destroyed.

Explanation: My LL was a councillor at the time and great pals with the Mayor.

....... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

<io5vijFlvt6U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:56:18 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:56 UTC

On 19-Aug-21 12:33 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ==============
>>
>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>> consequences.
>>
>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>> involve the use of the information.
>>
>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>
>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>> hearsay.
>>
>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ** IOW the act is essentially a sham.
>

Certainly looks that way. The question is whether it was always intended
to be. At the time it was passed, I'd think the members of parliament
voting for it would have expected it to have rather more teeth than it's
turned out to have. The executive may be more than happy with how things
are, but I don't see how they could have anticipated that the Tribunal,
and especially the Appeal Panel, would lean so heavily on the side of
the agencies.

Sylvia.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

<sfkket$18fi$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:50:50 +1000
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 by: Max - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 03:50 UTC

On 19/08/2021 11:19 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
> https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>
> This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
> documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>
> Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
> matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>
> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
> consequences.
>
> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
> involve the use of the information.
>
> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>
> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
> hearsay.
>
> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>
> Sylvia.

1.

Why didn't you cross-examine the two 'expert' witnesses more thoroughly
when you had the chance?

2.

Isn't the thrust of the respondent's case that you were after technical
documentation about the train system which in the wrong hands could have
allowed people to take over or disupt the operation of the train?

Do you have problem with the essence of this argument? Because at the
end of the day, the government and the courts will be very concerned
about this happening.

Often the judgement will be twisted to suit the desired outcome. That
is the nature of the law. It is not a mathematical/computer system.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 14:00:02 +1000
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 by: Max - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:00 UTC

On 19/08/2021 12:33 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ==============
>>
>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>> consequences.
>>
>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>> involve the use of the information.
>>
>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>
>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>> hearsay.
>>
>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ** IOW the act is essentially a sham.
>
> In about 1994, my LL decided to build a driveway and a parking area right next to my flat.
> Previously for about 47 years, there had been only a walkway with a 6ft high dividing fence.
>
> The LL bought the adjacent property, tore down the fence, concreted the land and had the Ashfield
> council make a "crossover" so vehicles could access the new parking area - while removing a huge, healthy
> 40 year old Wattle tree in the process.
> This also meant that vehicles had to reverse out of a *blind exit* across a busy shopping center footpath.
>
> His excuse was he needed a "loading dock" for deliveries to his newsagency - but it was never used for that .
> On the first day of use, vehicles began parking across my doorway, blocking access to anything more than 0.5 m wide.
>

How did the LL expect to get away with that? When you rent property,
you have rights over the property (including the common property) "as
against the whole world", which includes the LL.

So the LL had no right to allow vehicles to park on the common property
unless he himself owned one of the units.

> If I had a visitor, other cars would block them in - on one occasion for about 2.5 hours.
> Called the police, a total of 3 police crews got involved including the district commander.
> Eventually wound up Burwood Court, with me taking an AVO against my ( crazy Italian) next door neighbors.
>
> On a hunch I decided to file a FOI request with Ashfield Council re the approval docs for the " loading dock".
> Paid a small fee and got a brown envelope stuffed with unrelated material.
>
> When complaining about this, it became very clear that NO approval docs existed or else they had been destroyed.
>
> Explanation: My LL was a councillor at the time and great pals with the Mayor.
>
>
> ...... Phil
>

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:17:27 +0000
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:17 UTC

Max the IDIOT puked:
===================
> 1.
>
> Why didn't you cross-examine the two 'expert' witnesses more thoroughly
> when you had the chance?
>

** How would harassing secret NON experts posing as experts help ?

> 2.
>
> Isn't the thrust of the respondent's case that you were after technical
> documentation about the train system which in the wrong hands could have
> allowed people to take over or disupt the operation of the train?

** Yawnnnnn..... begs the original question.


> Often the judgement will be twisted to suit the desired outcome. That
> is the nature of the law.

** FFS you wog imbecile - doing that is the OPPOSITE of the rule of law.

> It is not a mathematical/computer system.

** But must follow logical rules and not make unjustified assumptions .

Completely foreign territory to fuckwits like you.

....... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:37 UTC

Max wrote:
==========
>
> > His excuse was he needed a "loading dock" for deliveries to his newsagency - but it was never used for that .
> > On the first day of use, vehicles began parking across my doorway, blocking access to anything more than 0.5 m wide.
> >
> How did the LL expect to get away with that?

** Who said he did?

I of course complained and the LL's solution was to place two, large heavy pot plants each side of my door way .
The end result of which was even more restricted access when vehicles parked similarly.

> When you rent property, you have rights over the property (including the common property) "as
> against the whole world", which includes the LL.

** Huh ??

You have a right to use pathways and entrances and the like.
But the LL turned a walking pathway into a driveway & parking area - stuffing things up.

This is why the various police were there for hours trying to convince a barking mad
Italian woman ( a renter herself ) she could not possibly own the newly created driveway.

Finally one female officer had a brainwave.

She examined the car that was blocking my visitor in and found it had 4 near bald tyres.
So she made a deal, move your damn car right now or I will give you a fine and a defect notice.

Maybe not totally legal but it worked. When she came over and told me all this, she remarked that
the Italian woman was the most difficult person she had ever had to deal with.

Her name was Constable Jo Overland, from a famous police family.
I see she is now the LGBTIQ Liason Officer for the Burwood Police.

....... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 14:47:59 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:47 UTC

On 19-Aug-21 1:50 pm, Max wrote:
> On 19/08/2021 11:19 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>>
>> This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
>> documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>>
>> Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
>> matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>>
>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>> consequences.
>>
>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if
>> there would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal
>> act even if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act
>> that do not involve the use of the information.
>>
>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>> instead having those experts give their information to an
>> non-technical front man, and have the front man present the evidence
>> as hearsay.
>>
>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence
>> is hearsay.
>>
>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> 1.
>
> Why didn't you cross-examine the two 'expert' witnesses more thoroughly
> when you had the chance?

It's next to impossible to cross-examine someone who's just
regurgitating what they'd been told. They don't even understand the
questions. When I asked Roy Ale why he believed this stuff was even
possible, he talked about the clever people he'd met.

>
> 2.
>
> Isn't the thrust of the respondent's case that you were after technical
> documentation about the train system which in the wrong hands could have
> allowed people to take over or disupt the operation of the train?

Initially, they'd claimed that an attacker could control the speed of
the train. They backed down on that when I drew attention to the
emergency brake system which is not controlled electronically, and could
not be overridden. If the train were to accelerate in a way not
commanded by the driver, the driver would be expected to use the
emergency brake to stop the train.

Consequently, any attempt to control the train will fail, and the
attacker would find themselves in a stopped train ready to be arrested.

>
> Do you have problem with the essence of this argument?  Because at the
> end of the day, the government and the courts will be very concerned
> about this happening.

The core of my appeal was based on the existence of alternative easier
ways of committing the criminal acts suggested by the respondent.

The respondent's proposition was that some knowledgable person would

a) Construct or source a device capable of interacting with the train
control system.

b) Trust that it will work, because there is no train to test it on.

c) Board a train, and in full view of other passengers and surveillance
cameras, break into an electronics bay.

d) Connect the device.

e) Use it to stop the train.

Yet all a knowledgable person needs to do is clip a modestly thick piece
of wire across the rails a bit beyond a signal. You can buy suitable
cables, complete with rail clips, online. The signal will turn red, and
the train will stop. This has the advantage that the attacker knows
exactly where the train will stop. There are even conveniently sited
tunnels on the network that allow this to be done out of sight, or for a
remotely controlled device that does this to be installed at night.

The effect of the judgement is that that doesn't matter. If a criminal
act making use the information is possible, then the release would
facilitate, as in make easier, that criminal act.

I question, and did question in submissions both before the Tribunal at
first instance, and before the Appeal Panel, whether the criminal act
can be said to be made easier when it was already quite easy, and the
release of the information would only reveal a more difficult approach.

The only way I can see for the Tribunal and Appeal Panel to reason their
way around that is for the criminal act to be so narrowly defined that
it encompasses the use of the information, so that it's not just
stopping the train, but stopping the train in a particular way.

Refusing to release the information has not in any way reduced the
chance that trains will be stopped by criminals. The public have not
been protected at all. All that's happened is that Sydney Trains have
been able to keep something secret. When they did this in respect of the
dead-man's brake on the Tangaras, people died at Waterfall.

If the IEDR contains a flaw that prevents it from operating in a real
accident, this may now only be discovered when it happens, and more
people die.

>
> Often the judgement will be twisted to suit the desired outcome.  That
> is the nature of the law.  It is not a mathematical/computer system.

That is certainly true, though I don't know why the Tribunal is so
determined to give an easy ride to government agencies.

Sylvia.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: notgo...@happen.com (Clocky)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 13:31:02 +0800
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 by: Clocky - Tue, 24 Aug 2021 05:31 UTC

On 19/08/2021 10:33 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> ==============
>>
>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>> consequences.
>>
>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>> involve the use of the information.
>>
>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>
>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>> hearsay.
>>
>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ** IOW the act is essentially a sham.
>
> In about 1994, my LL decided to build a driveway and a parking area right next to my flat.
> Previously for about 47 years, there had been only a walkway with a 6ft high dividing fence.
>
> The LL bought the adjacent property, tore down the fence, concreted the land and had the Ashfield
> council make a "crossover" so vehicles could access the new parking area - while removing a huge, healthy
> 40 year old Wattle tree in the process.
> This also meant that vehicles had to reverse out of a *blind exit* across a busy shopping center footpath.
>
> His excuse was he needed a "loading dock" for deliveries to his newsagency - but it was never used for that .
> On the first day of use, vehicles began parking across my doorway, blocking access to anything more than 0.5 m wide.
>
> If I had a visitor, other cars would block them in - on one occasion for about 2.5 hours.
> Called the police, a total of 3 police crews got involved including the district commander.
> Eventually wound up Burwood Court, with me taking an AVO against my ( crazy Italian) next door neighbors.
>
> On a hunch I decided to file a FOI request with Ashfield Council re the approval docs for the " loading dock".
> Paid a small fee and got a brown envelope stuffed with unrelated material.
>
> When complaining about this, it became very clear that NO approval docs existed or else they had been destroyed.
>
> Explanation: My LL was a councillor at the time and great pals with the Mayor.
>
>
> ...... Phil
>

I wish they would investigate the dealings of a certain Italian
individual and the council here.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: hoa...@moan.net (Sarah Tonen)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Message-ID: <9n7dighmfopsc76eb3ksv779v1n38ldh4m@j.net>
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 by: Sarah Tonen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 19:51 UTC

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:19:11 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>
>This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
>documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>
>Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
>matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>
>In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>consequences.
>
>1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>involve the use of the information.
>
>2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>
>3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>hearsay.
>
>The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>
>Sylvia.

You may as well give up these mostly pointless crusades of yours. As
soon as they see your NAME involved, it's over. But you won't learn
this, I have no doubt.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: max...@val.morgan (Max)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:19:10 +1000
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Max - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:19 UTC

On 26/08/2021 5:51 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:19:11 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>>
>> This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
>> documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>>
>> Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
>> matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>>
>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>> consequences.
>>
>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>> involve the use of the information.
>>
>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>
>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>> hearsay.
>>
>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> You may as well give up these mostly pointless crusades of yours. As
> soon as they see your NAME involved, it's over. But you won't learn
> this, I have no doubt.
>

Are you suggesting that the tribunals would make a decision based on the
name of the applicant?

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: hoa...@moan.net (Sarah Tonen)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Message-ID: <gjhdigt89qt7tm3uvr537kc8phppn6onu0@j.net>
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 by: Sarah Tonen - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:44 UTC

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:19:10 +1000, Max <max@val.morgan> wrote:

>On 26/08/2021 5:51 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:19:11 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>>>
>>> This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
>>> documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>>>
>>> Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
>>> matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>>>
>>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>>> consequences.
>>>
>>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>>> involve the use of the information.
>>>
>>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>>
>>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>>> hearsay.
>>>
>>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> You may as well give up these mostly pointless crusades of yours. As
>> soon as they see your NAME involved, it's over. But you won't learn
>> this, I have no doubt.
>>
>
>Are you suggesting that the tribunals would make a decision based on the
>name of the applicant?

I'm suggesting people like Sylvia and 'Noodle' would be unofficially
regarded as serial pests.

I have no issue with taking the government on over important matters,
but some people need to be more discriminating and focused in their
actions, rather than making complaints to locals/state/federal govts
non-stop into perpetuity. At least don't be so petty over minutiae

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: rod.spee...@gmail.com (Rod Speed)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:26:27 +1000
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 by: Rod Speed - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:26 UTC

Max <max@val.morgan> wrote
> Sarah Tonen wrote
>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>> https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/17b563ee06449e2b667478e4
>>>
>>> This is the judgement in my appeal regarding the GIPA application for
>>> documents relating to internal emergency door release.
>>>
>>> Unsurpisingly, I did not prevail. This is as far as I can take the
>>> matter without exposing myself to significant financial consequences.
>>>
>>> In summary, the judgement of the Appeal Panel has the following
>>> consequences.
>>>
>>> 1) It is possible to find a public interest against disclosure if there
>>> would be some way to use the information to commit a criminal act even
>>> if there are easier ways to commit that same criminal act that do not
>>> involve the use of the information.
>>>
>>> 2) An agency can render technical evidence effectively immune to
>>> realistic cross-examination by not calling the technical experts, but
>>> instead having those experts give their information to an non-technical
>>> front man, and have the front man present the evidence as hearsay.
>>>
>>> 3) It does not matter if an agency fails to reveal that its evidence is
>>> hearsay.
>>>
>>> The Tribunal has consistently construed the GIPA Act in a way that has
>>> rendered it next to impossible to get any information of substance out
>>> of an agency that does not want to provide it.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> You may as well give up these mostly pointless crusades of yours. As
>> soon as they see your NAME involved, it's over. But you won't learn
>> this, I have no doubt.
>>
>
> Are you suggesting that the tribunals would make
> a decision based on the name of the applicant?

Corse they do with vexatious time wasting pests like Else.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:28:23 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:28 UTC

On 26-Aug-21 8:44 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:

> I have no issue with taking the government on over important matters,
> but some people need to be more discriminating and focused in their
> actions, rather than making complaints to locals/state/federal govts
> non-stop into perpetuity. At least don't be so petty over minutiae
>

People dying in train crashes is minutiae?

Sylvia.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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 by: Phil Allison - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 00:36 UTC

Sarah Tonen wrote:
===============
>
> >Are you suggesting that the tribunals would make a decision based on the
> >name of the applicant?
>
> I'm suggesting people like Sylvia and 'Noodle' would be unofficially
> regarded as serial pests.
>
** IME :

Make one complaint to a Govt office or similar = pest.
Make two = trouble maker.
Make three = black listed.

The more serious your complaint, the more likely it is to be ignored.
Staff charged with dealing with complaints are the LEAST likely to know how to.
It is important for the office that your complaint NOT succeed.
Preserving the "status quo" is the only important thing.

My experience includes complaints to:

Local Council
Communications Ombudsman
EPA
EWON
Fair Trading
ABC TV

FYI:
Only time I ever had a complaint dealt with properly was with Dick Smiths.
Managed to get to speak to one of the managers, Jim Rowe.
He actually ordered store staff to apologise to me.

...... Phil

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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:30:15 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: oznoo...@gmail.com (Noodle)
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 by: Noodle - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:30 UTC

> Make one complaint to a Govt office or similar = pest.
> Make two = trouble maker.
> Make three = black listed.
> The more serious your complaint, the more likely it is to be ignored.
> Staff charged with dealing with complaints are the LEAST likely to know how to.
> It is important for the office that your complaint NOT succeed.
> Preserving the "status quo" is the only important thing.

NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.

If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.

It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 05:25 UTC

On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 11:30:16 AM UTC+10, Noodle wrote:
> > Make one complaint to a Govt office or similar = pest.
> > Make two = trouble maker.
> > Make three = black listed.
> > The more serious your complaint, the more likely it is to be ignored.
> > Staff charged with dealing with complaints are the LEAST likely to know how to.
> > It is important for the office that your complaint NOT succeed.
> > Preserving the "status quo" is the only important thing.
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.

** Drivel.

> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.

** Like HELL they will.

> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.

** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.

...... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:37:47 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 05:37 UTC

On 27-Aug-21 3:25 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 11:30:16 AM UTC+10, Noodle wrote:
>>> Make one complaint to a Govt office or similar = pest.
>>> Make two = trouble maker.
>>> Make three = black listed.
>>> The more serious your complaint, the more likely it is to be ignored.
>>> Staff charged with dealing with complaints are the LEAST likely to know how to.
>>> It is important for the office that your complaint NOT succeed.
>>> Preserving the "status quo" is the only important thing.
>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
>
> ** Drivel.
>
>
>> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
>> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.
>
> ** Like HELL they will.
>
>> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.
>
> ** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.

Since they never admit error anyway, and are congenitally opposed to
change, this effect doesn't matter, even if it exists.

Sylvia

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 05:48 UTC

Stupider than Anyone Else vomited:
================================
>
> >> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
> >
> > ** Drivel.
> >
> >
> >> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
> >> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.
> >
> > ** Like HELL they will.
> >
> >> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.
> >
> > ** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.
>>
> Since they never admit error anyway,

** They can be forced to sometimes.

> and are congenitally opposed to change,

** Likewise with change.

> this effect doesn't matter,

** See the words "more determined " ?????

Got any idea what that actually refers to ?

Course not - Sylvia is massively autistic.

...... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:53:22 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 05:53 UTC

On 27-Aug-21 3:48 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> Stupider than Anyone Else vomited:
> ================================
>>
>>>> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
>>>
>>> ** Drivel.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
>>>> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.
>>>
>>> ** Like HELL they will.
>>>
>>>> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.
>>>
>>> ** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.
>>>
>> Since they never admit error anyway,
>
> ** They can be forced to sometimes.
>

You mean, for example, when someone succeeds in extracting information
from them using GIPA that documents their error?

Sylvia.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
Injection-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:08:43 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Phil Allison - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:08 UTC

On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 3:53:25 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 27-Aug-21 3:48 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> > Stupider than Anyone Else vomited:
> > ================================
> >>
> >>>> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
> >>>
> >>> ** Drivel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
> >>>> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.
> >>>
> >>> ** Like HELL they will.
> >>>
> >>>> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.
> >>>
> >>> ** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.
> >>>
> >> Since they never admit error anyway,
> >
> > ** They can be forced to sometimes.
> >
> You mean,

** Only when it gets negative media coverage and the minister has no option.

..... Phil

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: hoa...@moan.net (Sarah Tonen)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
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 by: Sarah Tonen - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:28 UTC

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:28:23 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>On 26-Aug-21 8:44 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:
>
>> I have no issue with taking the government on over important matters,
>> but some people need to be more discriminating and focused in their
>> actions, rather than making complaints to locals/state/federal govts
>> non-stop into perpetuity. At least don't be so petty over minutiae
>>
>
>People dying in train crashes is minutiae?
>
>Sylvia.

In the grand scheme of things, yes. I applaud your activism (if you
want to call it that) but wish you'd pick more important battles. I
think you're wasting a lot of energy that could be better directed.

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: hoa...@moan.net (Sarah Tonen)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
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 by: Sarah Tonen - Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:29 UTC

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:30:15 -0700 (PDT), Noodle <oznoodle@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Make one complaint to a Govt office or similar = pest.
>> Make two = trouble maker.
>> Make three = black listed.
>> The more serious your complaint, the more likely it is to be ignored.
>> Staff charged with dealing with complaints are the LEAST likely to know how to.
>> It is important for the office that your complaint NOT succeed.
>> Preserving the "status quo" is the only important thing.
>
>NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
>
>If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.

HAHAHAHA!!

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 12:38:29 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 02:38 UTC

On 27-Aug-21 4:08 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
> On Friday, August 27, 2021 at 3:53:25 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 27-Aug-21 3:48 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
>>> Stupider than Anyone Else vomited:
>>> ================================
>>>>
>>>>>> NSW Government stonewalls at their peril.
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Drivel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If Sylvia approaches the Daily Telegraph or Current Affair journalist and shows
>>>>>> them stonewalling, they will publish it to the mass-media and it will be out in the open.
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Like HELL they will.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is important for people like Sylvia & others to keep the pressure on public departments.
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Only makes them even more determined to never admit error or change anything already done.
>>>>>
>>>> Since they never admit error anyway,
>>>
>>> ** They can be forced to sometimes.
>>>
>> You mean,
>
> ** Only when it gets negative media coverage and the minister has no option.
>
>
>
> .... Phil
>

Re: Else v Sydney Trains

<ip1asvFcgoU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=2964&group=aus.legal#2964

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: aus.legal
Subject: Re: Else v Sydney Trains
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 21:55:11 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:55 UTC

On 28-Aug-21 8:28 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:28:23 +1000, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 26-Aug-21 8:44 am, Sarah Tonen wrote:
>>
>>> I have no issue with taking the government on over important matters,
>>> but some people need to be more discriminating and focused in their
>>> actions, rather than making complaints to locals/state/federal govts
>>> non-stop into perpetuity. At least don't be so petty over minutiae
>>>
>>
>> People dying in train crashes is minutiae?
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> In the grand scheme of things, yes. I applaud your activism (if you
> want to call it that) but wish you'd pick more important battles. I
> think you're wasting a lot of energy that could be better directed.
>

Standard "why are you doing this, when you could be doing that?" response.

This is the issue I've chosen to address. If there's an issue that
bothers you, you can address it yourself.

Sylvia.

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