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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<Qlqx$MCVKRbiFALJ@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28840&group=uk.railway#28840

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <Qlqx$MCVKRbiFALJ@perry.uk>
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:42 UTC

In message <t4j016$edk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:37:42 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4ipis$30q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:40 on Sat, 30 Apr
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>>>>> Internet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud
>>>>>>services started to be offered, except “_The Cloud�
>>>>>>wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they had an underscore at the
>>>>>>beginning of their network name so that it would sort to the top of the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some
>>>>>marketing oik no doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and
>>>>>storage has been around since the 50s long before the internet.
>>>>
>>>> Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
>>>> that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
>>>> your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).
>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey� quotes.
>>>>>
>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones
>>>>> Just Work even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in
>>>>>order to go full IP for [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting
>>>>>ones and little else.
>>>>
>>>> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>>>> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>>>
>>> There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre,
>>>with higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you
>>>going to sell and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper
>>>network? The existing cohort of I don’t see the need for this
>>>refuseniks will slowly die off. The number of people making phone
>>>calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going downwards. BT is already
>>>losing customers to the likes of CityFibre, who offer a technically
>>>superior fibre product at lower cost.
>>
>> 'Cityfibre' sounds like they might be cherry-picking easy to connect
>> premises. One of BT's problems (well, Openreach's really) is rural
>> customers, some of whom can barely get a connection in the megabits.
>> Connected of course by long wires with lots of joints.
>
>CityFibre are cherry picking and are therefore removing vast tracts of
>profitable customers from OpenReach. I’m afraid it’s down to BT’s short
>sighted management that thought they could carry on sweating the copper
>assets with the belief that any alternative providers would be minnows that
>could be seen off by the tactics employed in the past. However Cityfibre is
>very well funded.

BT's woes arise mainly from being strictly regulated, and the Universal
Service Obligation.

The regulatory regime was conceived mainly to stop the sort of predatory
behaviour which has been allegedly seen in some transport sectors, where
for example local bus operators have been put out of business by the
activities of much larger ones.

Getting from where we were in Mercury Blue-button days, to the current
landscape is pretty much a full time job to analyse. We are where we
are, however.

I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
them.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28844&group=uk.railway#28844

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:06:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:06 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:28:08 -0500
Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
>>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>>>>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>>>>live radio interviews.
>>>>
>>>>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>>>
>>>You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
>>>like copying a copy of a VHS tape.
>>
>>Not really. Analogue will consistently lose fidelity with each copy. With
>>lossy digital compression it'll eventually get to a point whereby all the
>>info that can be stripped out by various algos has been and it won't get any
>>worse no matter how many times its compressed or expanded. In theory. I
>>suppose if 1 or more of the algos makes a hash of it (probably a joke in
>there)
>>then all bets are off....
>>
>>This presupposes the signal is always kept in the digital realm of course and
>>doesn't go through an AD/DA conversion cycle.
>
>I didn't say it was the same as. There are a lot of different
>compression algorithms out there, and you lose quality each time it's
>converted from one to another.

And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of "all") is
an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level of the frequencies
that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear. Different algos will have
different ideas of what that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the
common denominator frequencies that they all agree are needed and after that
it won't get any worse.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28845&group=uk.railway#28845

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:11:00 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:11 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:00:34 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>
>>>But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>>to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot operator.
>Yes, they
>>>had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>>sort to the top of the list.
>>
>>"Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>>doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>>the 50s long before the internet.
>
>Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,

Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various offices whether
it be file servers or databases.

>that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
>your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).

There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy (as usual
techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology they don't
understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.

>>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>
>The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.

Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail they cost
buttons to replace. Perhaps the System-X gear in the exchanges is life
expired though I thought they'd switched over to IP in the exchanges a while
back anyway.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:18 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:47:40 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>
>There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre, with
>higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you going to sell
>and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper network? The existing
>cohort of I don’t see the need for this refuseniks will slowly die off. The

Says someone who's never had to make a 999 call in the middle of the night
for a sick child. The mobile signal has been dodgy here now and then.

>number of people making phone calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going
>downwards.

Only because BT in its infinite stupidity is still charging line rental AND
call charges in 2022 for land lines instead of doing a fixed monthly deal.
We still have a landline for emergencies and incoming calls, all outgoing
calls are done on mobiles if possible.

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:21 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>them.

You could say the same for water and electric. Some services should be
fundamental though sadly even today some rural places still have to use
septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette showed how it was done.

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:55:39 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:55 UTC

In message <t4jnmj$194v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:21:39 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>>having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>>them.
>
>You could say the same for water and electric.

And people do. The price does not reflect the cost of the
infrastructure.

>Some services should be fundamental though sadly even today some rural
>places still have to use septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette showed
>how it was done.

He showed how to build sewers in dense urban areas. It doesn't scale to
the sorts of places which still have septic tanks.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:00 UTC

In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:00:34 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t4gvm3$18ui$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:19:31 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 11:50:11 -0000 (UTC)
>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>>> Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>>
>>>>But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>>>to be offered, except “_The Cloud� wireless hotspot operator.
>>Yes, they
>>>>had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>>>sort to the top of the list.
>>>
>>>"Cloud" is nothing more than a buzzword dreamt up by some marketing oik no
>>>doubt to justify his job. Remote computing and storage has been around since
>>>the 50s long before the internet.
>>
>>Remote, yes, but not distributed in the sense of a cloud. Of course,
>
>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various offices whether
>it be file servers or databases.

But not as a "cloud".

>>that's part of the "problem" with clouds, you have no idea what country
>>your data is being stored in (unless you buy a premium product).
>
>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy (as usual
>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology they don't
>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.

The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.

>>>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>>>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>
>>The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>>essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>
>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail they cost
>buttons to replace.

Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.
Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
them).

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:03 UTC

In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:28:08 -0500
>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
>>>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>>>>>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>>>>>live radio interviews.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>>>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>>>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>>>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>>>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>>>>
>>>>You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
>>>>like copying a copy of a VHS tape.
>>>
>>>Not really. Analogue will consistently lose fidelity with each copy. With
>>>lossy digital compression it'll eventually get to a point whereby all the
>>>info that can be stripped out by various algos has been and it won't get any
>>>worse no matter how many times its compressed or expanded. In theory. I
>>>suppose if 1 or more of the algos makes a hash of it (probably a joke in
>>there)
>>>then all bets are off....
>>>
>>>This presupposes the signal is always kept in the digital realm of course and
>>>doesn't go through an AD/DA conversion cycle.
>>
>>I didn't say it was the same as. There are a lot of different
>>compression algorithms out there, and you lose quality each time it's
>>converted from one to another.
>
>And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of "all") is
>an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level of the frequencies
>that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear. Different algos will have
>different ideas of what that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the
>common denominator frequencies that they all agree are needed and after that
>it won't get any worse.

The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
one only receives every third word.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:14:23 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:14 UTC

In article <t4jngu$165v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
scribeth thus
>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 07:47:40 -0000 (UTC)
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> The main reason is that the copper (and especially aluminium) wiring is
>>> essentially life-expired, and fibre is much more reliable.
>>
>>There is also a commercial driver. If your competitors put in fibre, with
>>higher marketable speeds and lower running costs, how are you going to sell
>>and thus fund the maintenance of a crumbling copper network? The existing
>>cohort of I don’t see the need for this refuseniks will slowly die off. The
>
>Says someone who's never had to make a 999 call in the middle of the night
>for a sick child. The mobile signal has been dodgy here now and then.
>
>>number of people making phone calls on fixed lines is also rapidly going
>>downwards.
>
>Only because BT in its infinite stupidity is still charging line rental AND
>call charges in 2022 for land lines instead of doing a fixed monthly deal.
>We still have a landline for emergencies and incoming calls, all outgoing
>calls are done on mobiles if possible.
>

We got rid of the POTS line somewhile ago and went VoIP that number
comes up on the mobbie now as an extension, all works well. In a good
reception area, if it was out in the sticks then that can be a different
matter!...

Never expect BT to do anything innovative ever!...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:16:06 +0100
Organization: Bancom Comms
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 by: tony sayer - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:16 UTC

In article <rn4o6hd73jv0kl7d365gp5nhud8khqmpjp@4ax.com>, Christopher A.
Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> scribeth thus
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:24:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:41:30 -0500
>>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:29:06 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>>I just think it reflects badly on the telecomms industry, because nobody
>>>>deserves an actual "line" with the terrible quality of many of these
>>>>live radio interviews.
>>>>
>>>>I don't really understand why so many people have such terrible IP
>>>>connections either (one channel of ISDN is pretty much studio voice
>>>>quality, and a sixteenth of even an entry-level two megabit Internet
>>>>connection) but that's another story. It might be different
>>>>shaping/optimising algorithms fighting with each other.
>>>
>>>You lose signal quality with each compression and expansion. Rather
>>>like copying a copy of a VHS tape.
>>
>>Not really. Analogue will consistently lose fidelity with each copy. With
>>lossy digital compression it'll eventually get to a point whereby all the
>>info that can be stripped out by various algos has been and it won't get any
>>worse no matter how many times its compressed or expanded. In theory. I
>>suppose if 1 or more of the algos makes a hash of it (probably a joke in there)
>>then all bets are off....
>>
>>This presupposes the signal is always kept in the digital realm of course and
>>doesn't go through an AD/DA conversion cycle.
>
>I didn't say it was the same as. There are a lot of different
>compression algorithms out there, and you lose quality each time it's
>converted from one to another.

Transcoding IIRC - bad juju!...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

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From: ton...@bancom.co.uk (tony sayer)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:18:12 +0100
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 by: tony sayer - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:18 UTC

>>
>>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>
>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>>
>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
>> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
>> felt like 128k x 16.
>
>The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
>connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
>voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
>(2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.

Was that a E1 circuit?...
>
>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>
>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.
>>
>

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:47:51 +0100
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 by: Certes - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:47 UTC

On 30/04/2022 21:18, tony sayer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>>
>>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>>>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>>>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>>>
>>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
>>> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
>>> felt like 128k x 16.
>>
>> The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
>> connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
>> voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
>> (2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.
>
> Was that a E1 circuit?...

I think so, though we didn't use that term at the time.

>>>>> There was a trick of the trade which was to order say a four line PABX
>>>>> (which you probably needed anyway) and as a special promotion they
>>>>> waived the installation fee. But between us girls we knew they'd lay a
>>>>> two megabit fibre, so you could then order a leased line using the spare
>>>>> capacity, and bingo, no otherwise hefty installation fee, because the
>>>>> fibre was already there!
>>>>
>>>> Neat. That would be one of those “subject to survey” quotes.
>>>
>>
>

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From: nige...@ukonline.co.uk (Nigel Emery)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Nigel Emery - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 22:51 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.

I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
confirms it:
<https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consumers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>

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From: nige...@ukonline.co.uk (Nigel Emery)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 01 May 2022 00:01:13 +0100
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 by: Nigel Emery - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:01 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:16:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>One of BT's problems (well, Openreach's really) is rural
>customers, some of whom can barely get a connection in the megabits.
>Connected of course by long wires with lots of joints.

My village is south Cheshire now has full fibre. Not sure where the
funding came from but most of the work has been done over the last few
months by Airband. The interesting bit is that is been done by
stringing up mile after mile of fibre from NEW telegraph poles. Where
the new cable needs to pass through a tree no effort has been made to
cut the tree back so it's going to be interesting to see if it holds
up in high winds.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 07:56:02 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 1 May 2022 06:56 UTC

In message <t4k79n$5de$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:47:51 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>>>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>>>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>>>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>>>>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>>>>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>>>>
>>>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
>>>> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
>>>> felt like 128k x 16.
>>>
>>> The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
>>> connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
>>> voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
>>> (2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.

>> Was that a E1 circuit?...
>
>I think so, though we didn't use that term at the time.

Our American colleagues used to refer to T1 circuits all the time, but
in the UK it was almost always the megabits.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 07:14:01 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Sun, 1 May 2022 07:14 UTC

Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>
> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
> confirms it:
> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consumers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>
>
If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t really going to
do doing anything fundamentally different to what was planned. They might
market some better battery packs.

If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently big
battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the equipment. Then
I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made. I’d not trust the
mobile network to stay up in the event of a long power cut.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<ATgVS6T9HjbiFAK5@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 08:08:45 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 1 May 2022 07:08 UTC

In message <8rxtYtNdUrqXHBRPm3CQqutgK111@4ax.com>, at 23:51:27 on Sat,
30 Apr 2022, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>
>I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>confirms it:

><https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-
>consumers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>

It starts off with lots of "hang on a minute, we are rethinking some
aspects of this rollout, and need to fine tune the technology especially
for the stragglers", but later throws in:

"Like the shift from analogue to digital TV, in the long-term,
the move to Digital Voice is both critical and necessary.

It's not just BT customers who will need to make these changes,
all home phone users, with any provider, will need to move to a
digital system before 2025. At BT, we have 10 million customers
to upgrade by then."

Trying to square the circle, I think what they are saying is that
they'll continue to roll out their full-fibre broadband, and provide
digital voice over that, where a customer asks for it - but won't go to
the stage of making it compulsory [which I think is what the
Salisbury/Mildenhall trial is about] until much nearer the end of the
programme.

I'm sort of assuming that the final stage will be giving the stragglers
Full-Fibre broadband, but limited or zero IP transit on that bandwidth,
using it just for the voice service because by then they need to rip out
*all* the copper and its supporting infrastructure.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<EVv0jpWBXkbiFA6y@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 09:33:05 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 1 May 2022 08:33 UTC

In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that
>>>Just Work
>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go
>>>full IP for
>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>
>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>> confirms it:
>>
>><https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>
>>
>If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t really going to
>do doing anything fundamentally different to what was planned. They might
>market some better battery packs.
>
>If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently big
>battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the equipment. Then
>I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.

Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
upstream?

>I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>power cut.

They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.

I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 11:02:43 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: ColinR - Sun, 1 May 2022 10:02 UTC

On 30/04/2022 17:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4jnmj$194v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:21:39 on Sat, 30 Apr
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>>> having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>>> them.
>>
>> You could say the same for water and electric.
>
> And people do. The price does not reflect the cost of the infrastructure.
>
>> Some services should be fundamental though sadly even today some rural
>> places still have to use septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette
>> showed how it was done.
>
> He showed how to build sewers in dense urban areas. It doesn't scale to
> the sorts of places which still have septic tanks.

Absolutely. Why try to build a sewer for over a mile for a single
household? Septic tank is far better.

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 11:24:06 +0100
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 by: ColinR - Sun, 1 May 2022 10:24 UTC

On 01/05/2022 08:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <8rxtYtNdUrqXHBRPm3CQqutgK111@4ax.com>, at 23:51:27 on Sat,
> 30 Apr 2022, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>
>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>> confirms it:
>
>> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-
>> consumers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>
> It starts off with lots of "hang on a minute, we are rethinking some
> aspects of this rollout, and need to fine tune the technology especially
> for the stragglers", but later throws in:
>
> "Like the shift from analogue to digital TV, in the long-term,
> the move to Digital Voice is both critical and necessary.
>
> It's not just BT customers who will need to make these changes,
> all home phone users, with any provider, will need to move to a
> digital system before 2025. At BT, we have 10 million customers
> to upgrade by then."
>
> Trying to square the circle, I think what they are saying is that
> they'll continue to roll out their full-fibre broadband, and provide
> digital voice over that, where a customer asks for it - but won't go to
> the stage of making it compulsory [which I think is what the
> Salisbury/Mildenhall trial is about] until much nearer the end of the
> programme.
>
> I'm sort of assuming that the final stage will be giving the stragglers
> Full-Fibre broadband, but limited or zero IP transit on that bandwidth,
> using it just for the voice service because by then they need to rip out
> *all* the copper and its supporting infrastructure.

"If you're not able to get Ultrafast Full Fibre at your premises you
won't be impacted, and will still be able to keep your existing copper
product until it's available."
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-the-copper-network

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 11:27:40 +0100
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 by: ColinR - Sun, 1 May 2022 10:27 UTC

On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that
>>>> Just Work
>>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go
>>>> full IP for
>>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>>
>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>> confirms it:
>>>
>>> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>
>>>
>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t really
>> going to
>> do doing anything fundamentally different to what was planned. They might
>> market some better battery packs.
>>
>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently big
>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the equipment.
>> Then
>> I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.
>
> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
> upstream?
>
>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>> power cut.
>
> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>
> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.

Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes. However,
what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
area).

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:32:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:32 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that
>>>>> Just Work
>>>>> even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go
>>>>> full IP for
>>>>> [reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>>>>
>>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>>> confirms it:
>>>>
>>>> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t really
>>> going to
>>> do doing anything fundamentally different to what was planned. They might
>>> market some better battery packs.
>>>
>>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently big
>>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the equipment.
>>> Then
>>> I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.
>>
>> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
>> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
>> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
>> upstream?
>>
>>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>>> power cut.
>>
>> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
>> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
>> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>>
>> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
>> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
>> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
>> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
>
> Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes. However,
> what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
> weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
> copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
> area).
>

It is passive, ie no electronics all the way to the head end (not
necessarily your existing local exchange), which can be tens of km.

If you are out of power for days it comes down to dry batteries, or
recharge from your car. If you only connect the battery when you need to
make a call it should last a long time.

I’m not sure why roaming would help. Every cell site in the blacked out
area will fail once their batteries go flat. I see little evidence of
generator backup. You can have as many SLAs as you like, but bits of paper
don’t fix widespread storm damage.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4m97g$bbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:33:04 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:33 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various offices whether
>
>>it be file servers or databases.
>
>But not as a "cloud".

I can't tell if you're being tongue in cheek or not. You do realise "cloud"
is just marketing BS for remote computers? An FTP server could be "cloud".

>>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy (as usual
>>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology they don't
>
>>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.
>
>The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
>territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.

Then don't let a 3rd party store your critical data. Simple.

>>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail they cost
>>buttons to replace.
>
>Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.

Less than replacing broken fibre I imagine since you can't just splice fibre
back together when it snaps.

>Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
>(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
>or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
>them).

Wow, how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being made out
of fragile copper and aluminium too?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4m9bi$d7c$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:35:15 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:35 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of "all") is
>>an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level of the frequencies
>>that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear. Different algos will have
>>different ideas of what that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the
>>common denominator frequencies that they all agree are needed and after that
>>it won't get any worse.
>
>The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>one only receives every third word.

Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to insist
on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the interview the
line dies. Why can't they use a phone?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4m9j9$gvs$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28885&group=uk.railway#28885

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 15:39:21 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sun, 1 May 2022 15:39 UTC

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:51:27 +0100
Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones that Just Work
>>even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in order to go full IP for
>>[reasons]. No doubt long term cost cutting ones and little else.
>
>I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>confirms it:
><https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consumers-whi
>le-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>

"new broadband network", "old analogue network".

Would that be the same broadband network than runs ADSL over the analogue
copper lines then? God, they're so full of shit. Still, at least someone has
finally got the memo about resilience.

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