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A pain in the ass of major dimensions. -- C. A. Desoer, on the solution of non-linear circuits


aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4o54e$dqu$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28937&group=uk.railway#28937

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 08:35:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Mon, 2 May 2022 08:35 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4mo2i$a7a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:26 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4m960$bs1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:16 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones
>>>>>>>>> Just Work even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in
>>>>>>>>> order to go full IP for [reasons]. No doubt long term cost
>>>>>>>>> cutting ones and little else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>>>>>>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>>>>>>> confirms it:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>>>>>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t
>>>>>>> really going to do doing anything fundamentally different to what
>>>>>>> was planned. They might market some better battery packs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently
>>>>>>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the
>>>>>>> equipment. Then I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
>>>>>> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
>>>>>> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
>>>>>> upstream?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>>>>>>> power cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
>>>>>> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
>>>>>> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
>>>>>> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
>>>>>> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
>>>>>> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes. However,
>>>>> what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
>>>>> weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
>>>>> copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
>>>>> area).
>>>>
>>>> It is passive, ie no electronics all the way to the head end (not
>>>> necessarily your existing local exchange), which can be tens of km.
>>>
>>> Are you sure about that? The splitter on your telegraph pole is passive,
>>> but does the backhaul fibre from there go passively tens of km to some
>>> head end alongside hundreds of other fibres from other telegraph poles
>>> in the town/village?
>>>
>>> It feels more likely to me that those 1 Gigabit fibres from the
>>> telegraph poles are actively combined (multiplexed) fairly locally, and
>>> an order of magnitude [or more] less fibres, then doing the ten km.
>>>
>>> The obvious place to do that would be at the street cabinets which
>>> currently I think have 288 lines each. And with each telegraph pole
>>> (with its splitter) perhaps being on average 12 lines {go out and count
>>> a few} that's roughly one street cabinet per 24 poles.
>>>
>> It’s all explained here.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/6595-Xv-pZk
>>
>> Skip the first 3 mins.
>>
>> It’s not unrealistic to send one fibre back to the headend
>
> Presumably by "head end" you mean the CCJ in that video [4:23].
>
> The unit that I'm interested in understanding the power supply
> requirements for (in essence: is it passive or active) is the
> {Application} Node.
>
> Obviously the Splitter Node is the thing on telegraph poles, and no-one
> disputes they are passive, with 1Gb in, and typically up to a dozen or
> so fibres to premises (which BT is happy to sell as 900mb each; their
> marketing people, at least, assure subscribers there will never be
> contention; I have a bridge for sale).
>
> That diagram, however, only has one fibre between the Node and the CCJ,
> not one-per-Splitter Node.
>
> There's a rather shorter video with a better graphic [at 0:26]
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjZDBBgkps although sadly different
> names (viz: Secondary Splitter Node {ex Splitter Node} and aka "CBT",
> Primary Splitter Node {ex Node} and OCR {ex CCJ}, but most importantly a
> new one, the Aggregation Node. It's the power to (ie active/passive
> nature of) the latter I'm now looking into.
>
> They don't cover that in the video, but it could be passive.
>
>> per 32 way splitter. Currently for telephony one copper pair is routed
>> to the exchange per subscriber.
>
> As far as I can tell from the video the "32-way splitter" is the
> Node/SPN, and that only has fibre back to the Aggregation Node, not the
> exchange.
>
> Going back to my "typically up to a dozen" above, it would seem to be
> the case that the connections to those up-to-32 premises would go via a
> handful of telegraph poles to the hole in the ground, the exact number
> of poles being determined by the physical density of customers. There
> was a suggestion in the shorter video that you'd need one box (CBT) on
> the pole for each eight subscribers, but the mentally exhausting BT chap
> showed one with twelve.

The aggregation node is just a giant jointing box. It’s where the umpteen
fibre trunk cable is split out.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<lx78qc+S76biFAc8@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28948&group=uk.railway#28948

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:13:38 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 2 May 2022 10:13 UTC

In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by the end
>>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s the same
>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>> took off either.
>>
>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
>> obsolete.
>
>Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and certainly
>will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>yesterday’s battles.

The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
their listeners.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<oxm$67+m$6biFAdG@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28950&group=uk.railway#28950

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 2 May 2022 10:18 UTC

In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:

>>>>>Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated area where
>>>>>restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher priority
>>>>>(and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>
>>>>That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in villages where
>>>>the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing. (Station Road,
>>>>Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>
>>>1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>same time as the villages.
>>
>>>2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>concentrators) for a long time.
>>
>>While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>still need mains power to operate.
>>
>Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.

The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
situated.

What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
isn't going to be able to make calls.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:22:05 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 2 May 2022 10:22 UTC

In message <t4o54e$dqu$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:26 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4mo2i$a7a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:26 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4m960$bs1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:16 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones
>>>>>>>>>> Just Work even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in
>>>>>>>>>> order to go full IP for [reasons]. No doubt long term cost
>>>>>>>>>> cutting ones and little else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>>>>>>>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>>>>>>>> confirms it:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>>>>>>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t
>>>>>>>> really going to do doing anything fundamentally different to what
>>>>>>>> was planned. They might market some better battery packs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently
>>>>>>>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the
>>>>>>>> equipment. Then I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
>>>>>>> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
>>>>>>> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
>>>>>>> upstream?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>>>>>>>> power cut.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
>>>>>>> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
>>>>>>> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
>>>>>>> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
>>>>>>> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
>>>>>>> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes. However,
>>>>>> what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
>>>>>> weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
>>>>>> copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
>>>>>> area).
>>>>>
>>>>> It is passive, ie no electronics all the way to the head end (not
>>>>> necessarily your existing local exchange), which can be tens of km.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure about that? The splitter on your telegraph pole is passive,
>>>> but does the backhaul fibre from there go passively tens of km to some
>>>> head end alongside hundreds of other fibres from other telegraph poles
>>>> in the town/village?
>>>>
>>>> It feels more likely to me that those 1 Gigabit fibres from the
>>>> telegraph poles are actively combined (multiplexed) fairly locally, and
>>>> an order of magnitude [or more] less fibres, then doing the ten km.
>>>>
>>>> The obvious place to do that would be at the street cabinets which
>>>> currently I think have 288 lines each. And with each telegraph pole
>>>> (with its splitter) perhaps being on average 12 lines {go out and count
>>>> a few} that's roughly one street cabinet per 24 poles.
>>>>
>>> It’s all explained here.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/6595-Xv-pZk
>>>
>>> Skip the first 3 mins.
>>>
>>> It’s not unrealistic to send one fibre back to the headend
>>
>> Presumably by "head end" you mean the CCJ in that video [4:23].
>>
>> The unit that I'm interested in understanding the power supply
>> requirements for (in essence: is it passive or active) is the
>> {Application} Node.
>>
>> Obviously the Splitter Node is the thing on telegraph poles, and no-one
>> disputes they are passive, with 1Gb in, and typically up to a dozen or
>> so fibres to premises (which BT is happy to sell as 900mb each; their
>> marketing people, at least, assure subscribers there will never be
>> contention; I have a bridge for sale).
>>
>> That diagram, however, only has one fibre between the Node and the CCJ,
>> not one-per-Splitter Node.
>>
>> There's a rather shorter video with a better graphic [at 0:26]
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjZDBBgkps although sadly different
>> names (viz: Secondary Splitter Node {ex Splitter Node} and aka "CBT",
>> Primary Splitter Node {ex Node} and OCR {ex CCJ}, but most importantly a
>> new one, the Aggregation Node. It's the power to (ie active/passive
>> nature of) the latter I'm now looking into.
>>
>> They don't cover that in the video, but it could be passive.
>>
>>> per 32 way splitter. Currently for telephony one copper pair is routed
>>> to the exchange per subscriber.
>>
>> As far as I can tell from the video the "32-way splitter" is the
>> Node/SPN, and that only has fibre back to the Aggregation Node, not the
>> exchange.
>>
>> Going back to my "typically up to a dozen" above, it would seem to be
>> the case that the connections to those up-to-32 premises would go via a
>> handful of telegraph poles to the hole in the ground, the exact number
>> of poles being determined by the physical density of customers. There
>> was a suggestion in the shorter video that you'd need one box (CBT) on
>> the pole for each eight subscribers, but the mentally exhausting BT chap
>> showed one with twelve.
>
>The aggregation node is just a giant jointing box. It’s where the umpteen
>fibre trunk cable is split out.

I think there some words here being over-used (not our fault, the telcos
are perpetrating it). Like "splitter" to mean anything from a junction
box breaking a big bundle of cables into many smaller bundles, to a unit
on a telegraph pole that's not splitting fibres, but [as far as I can
tell] multiplexing/demultiplexing the traffic on a single fibre, to
multiple premises. ie it's a signal splitter, not a cable splitter.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Mon, 2 May 2022 11:11 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by the end
>>>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s the same
>>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>>> took off either.
>>>
>>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
>>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
>>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
>>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
>>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
>>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
>>> obsolete.
>>
>> Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and certainly
>> will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>> yesterday’s battles.
>
> The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
> Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
> their listeners.

I’ve no idea what your point is

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 11:19:17 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Mon, 2 May 2022 11:19 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4o54e$dqu$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:26 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4mo2i$a7a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:26 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4m960$bs1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:16 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones
>>>>>>>>>>> Just Work even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in
>>>>>>>>>>> order to go full IP for [reasons]. No doubt long term cost
>>>>>>>>>>> cutting ones and little else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the long grass
>>>>>>>>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>>>>>>>>> confirms it:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>>>>>>>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t
>>>>>>>>> really going to do doing anything fundamentally different to what
>>>>>>>>> was planned. They might market some better battery packs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently
>>>>>>>>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the
>>>>>>>>> equipment. Then I can connect it as and when a call needs to be made.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
>>>>>>>> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
>>>>>>>> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is immediately
>>>>>>>> upstream?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>>>>>>>>> power cut.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
>>>>>>>> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
>>>>>>>> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
>>>>>>>> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the technology
>>>>>>>> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
>>>>>>>> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes. However,
>>>>>>> what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
>>>>>>> weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
>>>>>>> copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
>>>>>>> area).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is passive, ie no electronics all the way to the head end (not
>>>>>> necessarily your existing local exchange), which can be tens of km.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you sure about that? The splitter on your telegraph pole is passive,
>>>>> but does the backhaul fibre from there go passively tens of km to some
>>>>> head end alongside hundreds of other fibres from other telegraph poles
>>>>> in the town/village?
>>>>>
>>>>> It feels more likely to me that those 1 Gigabit fibres from the
>>>>> telegraph poles are actively combined (multiplexed) fairly locally, and
>>>>> an order of magnitude [or more] less fibres, then doing the ten km.
>>>>>
>>>>> The obvious place to do that would be at the street cabinets which
>>>>> currently I think have 288 lines each. And with each telegraph pole
>>>>> (with its splitter) perhaps being on average 12 lines {go out and count
>>>>> a few} that's roughly one street cabinet per 24 poles.
>>>>>
>>>> It’s all explained here.
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/6595-Xv-pZk
>>>>
>>>> Skip the first 3 mins.
>>>>
>>>> It’s not unrealistic to send one fibre back to the headend
>>>
>>> Presumably by "head end" you mean the CCJ in that video [4:23].
>>>
>>> The unit that I'm interested in understanding the power supply
>>> requirements for (in essence: is it passive or active) is the
>>> {Application} Node.
>>>
>>> Obviously the Splitter Node is the thing on telegraph poles, and no-one
>>> disputes they are passive, with 1Gb in, and typically up to a dozen or
>>> so fibres to premises (which BT is happy to sell as 900mb each; their
>>> marketing people, at least, assure subscribers there will never be
>>> contention; I have a bridge for sale).
>>>
>>> That diagram, however, only has one fibre between the Node and the CCJ,
>>> not one-per-Splitter Node.
>>>
>>> There's a rather shorter video with a better graphic [at 0:26]
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjZDBBgkps although sadly different
>>> names (viz: Secondary Splitter Node {ex Splitter Node} and aka "CBT",
>>> Primary Splitter Node {ex Node} and OCR {ex CCJ}, but most importantly a
>>> new one, the Aggregation Node. It's the power to (ie active/passive
>>> nature of) the latter I'm now looking into.
>>>
>>> They don't cover that in the video, but it could be passive.
>>>
>>>> per 32 way splitter. Currently for telephony one copper pair is routed
>>>> to the exchange per subscriber.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell from the video the "32-way splitter" is the
>>> Node/SPN, and that only has fibre back to the Aggregation Node, not the
>>> exchange.
>>>
>>> Going back to my "typically up to a dozen" above, it would seem to be
>>> the case that the connections to those up-to-32 premises would go via a
>>> handful of telegraph poles to the hole in the ground, the exact number
>>> of poles being determined by the physical density of customers. There
>>> was a suggestion in the shorter video that you'd need one box (CBT) on
>>> the pole for each eight subscribers, but the mentally exhausting BT chap
>>> showed one with twelve.
>>
>> The aggregation node is just a giant jointing box. It’s where the umpteen
>> fibre trunk cable is split out.
>
> I think there some words here being over-used (not our fault, the telcos
> are perpetrating it). Like "splitter" to mean anything from a junction
> box breaking a big bundle of cables into many smaller bundles, to a unit
> on a telegraph pole that's not splitting fibres, but [as far as I can
> tell] multiplexing/demultiplexing the traffic on a single fibre, to
> multiple premises. ie it's a signal splitter, not a cable splitter.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 12:41:15 +0100
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 by: Certes - Mon, 2 May 2022 11:41 UTC

On 02/05/2022 12:11, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>>>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>>>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>>>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>>>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by the end
>>>>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>>>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s the same
>>>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>>>> took off either.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
>>>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>>>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
>>>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
>>>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>>>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
>>>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
>>>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
>>>> obsolete.
>>>
>>> Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and certainly
>>> will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>>> yesterday’s battles.
>>
>> The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
>> Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
>> their listeners.
>
> I’ve no idea what your point is

That 1 Gbit/s is not universal in countries with more basic facilities,
though I don't think we were discussing them in this UK newsgroup.
Anyway, once providing something becomes a priority, the developing
world often makes a step change from basic technology to bleeding edge,
because the latest kit is cheaper than what the UK installed years ago.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 13:08:49 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 2 May 2022 12:08 UTC

In message <t4oe8g$mju$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:12 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>>>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>>>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>>>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>>>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by the end
>>>>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>>>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s the same
>>>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>>>> took off either.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
>>>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>>>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
>>>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
>>>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>>>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
>>>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
>>>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
>>>> obsolete.
>>>
>>> Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and certainly
>>> will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>>> yesterday’s battles.
>>
>> The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
>> Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
>> their listeners.
>
>I’ve no idea what your point is

That we don't necessarily have 1Gbit everywhere (for example to, and
within, Kenya). So plenty still to cope with when it comes to being
able to get a clear and continuous voice channel [and not "a line"]
established through the cloud.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rink.hof...@planet.nl (Rink)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 19:03:16 +0200
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 by: Rink - Mon, 2 May 2022 17:03 UTC

Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of "all") is
>>> an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level of the frequencies
>>> that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear. Different algos will have
>>> different ideas of what that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the
>>> common denominator frequencies that they all agree are needed and after that
>>> it won't get any worse.
>>
>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>> one only receives every third word.
>
> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to insist
> on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the interview the
> line dies. Why can't they use a phone?
>
>

A phone call costs money.....

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 01:41:04 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Tue, 3 May 2022 00:41 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated area where
>>>>>>restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher priority
>>>>>>(and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in villages where
>>>>>the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing. (Station Road,
>>>>>Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>
>>>>1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>same time as the villages.
>>>
>>>>2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>concentrators) for a long time.
>>>
>>>While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>still need mains power to operate.
>>>
>>Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>
>The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>situated.
>
>What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>isn't going to be able to make calls.
>
This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
(otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 06:27:24 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:27 UTC

In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04 on
Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated area where
>>>>>>>restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher priority
>>>>>>>(and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in villages where
>>>>>>the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing. (Station Road,
>>>>>>Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>same time as the villages.
>>>>
>>>>>2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>
>>>>While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>still need mains power to operate.
>>>>
>>>Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>
>>The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>situated.
>>
>>What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>
>This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>(otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.

It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
within the village and depending on the same power restoration
as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
--
Roland Perry

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 06:36:33 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:36 UTC

In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>"all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>
>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>> one only receives every third word.

>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>interview the line dies.

Ahem! The cloud dies.

>>Why can't they use a phone?
>
>A phone call costs money.....

In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
they won't turn a hair.

The alternative as far as they are concerned is ordering you a limo to
get to the nearest regional studio, which will cost them vastly more
(but they still did it).

As an aside, the main reason BBC Breakfast has gone so downhill since
their move to Manchester (Salford for the pedants) is that the
population catchment area of a limo at 6.30am to the former studio in
London was orders of magnitude greater. Sorry, but if I can get to TV
Centre in an hour I might consider it, but it's over 3hrs to Salford.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 06:55:16 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:55 UTC

In message <t4m97g$bbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:33:04 on Sun, 1 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various
>>>offices whether
>>
>>>it be file servers or databases.
>>
>>But not as a "cloud".
>
>I can't tell if you're being tongue in cheek or not. You do realise "cloud"
>is just marketing BS for remote computers? An FTP server could be "cloud".
>
>>>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy (as usual
>>>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology
>>>they don't
>>
>>>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.
>>
>>The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
>>territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.
>
>Then don't let a 3rd party store your critical data. Simple.
>
>>>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail they cost
>>>buttons to replace.
>>
>>Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.
>
>Less than replacing broken fibre I imagine since you can't just splice fibre
>back together when it snaps.
>
>>Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
>>(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
>>or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
>>them).
>
>Wow, how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being made out
>of fragile copper and aluminium too?

Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
that's 0.5mm diameter.

Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
as your thumb.

And then there's the robustness of the connectors; what kills a lot of
phone wires is crimp connections going bad.

<https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-rear-view-of-a-bt-british-telecom-
engineer-at-work-at-a-street-corner-108405703.html>

[The reference to fibre is from the exchange to the cabinet, not the
cabinet to the customer; but it's a useful halfway house - many homes
I've lived in, the issues with the cables have been between the
exchange and the cabinet]

It's even worse when it's in an underground junction box, full of water.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 06:01:17 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Tue, 3 May 2022 06:01 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>> "all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>> of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>> Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>>
>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>>> one only receives every third word.
>
>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>> insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>> interview the line dies.
>
> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>
>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>
>> A phone call costs money.....
>
> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
> they won't turn a hair.
>
> The alternative as far as they are concerned is ordering you a limo to
> get to the nearest regional studio, which will cost them vastly more
> (but they still did it).
>
> As an aside, the main reason BBC Breakfast has gone so downhill since
> their move to Manchester (Salford for the pedants) is that the
> population catchment area of a limo at 6.30am to the former studio in
> London was orders of magnitude greater. Sorry, but if I can get to TV
> Centre in an hour I might consider it, but it's over 3hrs to Salford.

Breakfast interviews people who go to London (and other) studios. Pretty
much standard for the minister of the day who is put up on the media
circuit. And much though you will probably decry it, interviews via Zoom
(other makes available) seem to work much better these days and they don’t
require anyone to travel.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 07:19:53 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 06:19 UTC

In message <t4oenl$qkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:19:17 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4o54e$dqu$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:35:26 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4mo2i$a7a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:26 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4m960$bs1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:16 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/05/2022 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t4lbvp$g0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:14:01 on Sun, 1
>>>>>>>>>May 2022,
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BT soon to ditch its old-hat analogue phone lines (ie the ones
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just Work even if there's a power cut or noise on the line) in
>>>>>>>>>>>> order to go full IP for [reasons]. No doubt long term cost
>>>>>>>>>>>> cutting ones and little else.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd read that that plan had been kicked into the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> although I can't find much info searching. I think this sort of
>>>>>>>>>>> confirms it:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>><https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-our-digital-voice-plans-for-consu
>>>>>>>>>>> mers-while-we-work-on-a-more-resilient-rollout/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you read the contents of that link carefully they aren’t
>>>>>>>>>> really going to do doing anything fundamentally different to what
>>>>>>>>>> was planned. They might market some better battery packs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If and when I get put onto fibre only I’ll get myself a decently
>>>>>>>>>> battery pack and keep it charged but disconnected from the
>>>>>>>>>> equipment. Then I can connect it as and when a call needs
>>>>>>>>>>to be made.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Battery backup of your CPE is a solved problem (apart perhaps from who
>>>>>>>>> funds it). We know the "milk bottle splitters" on telegraph poles are
>>>>>>>>> passive, but what's the situation with whatever equipment is
>>>>>>>>>immediately
>>>>>>>>> upstream?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’d not trust the mobile network to stay up in the event of a long
>>>>>>>>>> power cut.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They appear to be talking about getting better SLAs with the power
>>>>>>>>> companies, and of course enabling domestic roaming (which the medical
>>>>>>>>> alert devices mentioned probably have already) would help somewhat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could envisage a candy-bar mobile phone with wifi-calling enabled as
>>>>>>>>> the default, being issued to rural subscribers, so that's the
>>>>>>>>>technology
>>>>>>>>> solved. We just need to work out the call billing. What would be
>>>>>>>>> simplest is to slug the SIM to just free-to-phone numbers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Errr, "so that's the technology solved". On the face of it yes.
>>>>>>>>However,
>>>>>>>> what technology charges the batteries when power is out for days or
>>>>>>>> weeks at a time, as happened last autumn? At least the old 50v in the
>>>>>>>> copper system continued (unless the exchange also came in the blackout
>>>>>>>> area).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is passive, ie no electronics all the way to the head end (not
>>>>>>> necessarily your existing local exchange), which can be tens of km.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you sure about that? The splitter on your telegraph pole is passive,
>>>>>> but does the backhaul fibre from there go passively tens of km to some
>>>>>> head end alongside hundreds of other fibres from other telegraph poles
>>>>>> in the town/village?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It feels more likely to me that those 1 Gigabit fibres from the
>>>>>> telegraph poles are actively combined (multiplexed) fairly locally, and
>>>>>> an order of magnitude [or more] less fibres, then doing the ten km.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The obvious place to do that would be at the street cabinets which
>>>>>> currently I think have 288 lines each. And with each telegraph pole
>>>>>> (with its splitter) perhaps being on average 12 lines {go out and count
>>>>>> a few} that's roughly one street cabinet per 24 poles.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It’s all explained here.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/6595-Xv-pZk
>>>>>
>>>>> Skip the first 3 mins.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s not unrealistic to send one fibre back to the headend
>>>>
>>>> Presumably by "head end" you mean the CCJ in that video [4:23].
>>>>
>>>> The unit that I'm interested in understanding the power supply
>>>> requirements for (in essence: is it passive or active) is the
>>>> {Application} Node.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously the Splitter Node is the thing on telegraph poles, and no-one
>>>> disputes they are passive, with 1Gb in, and typically up to a dozen or
>>>> so fibres to premises (which BT is happy to sell as 900mb each; their
>>>> marketing people, at least, assure subscribers there will never be
>>>> contention; I have a bridge for sale).
>>>>
>>>> That diagram, however, only has one fibre between the Node and the CCJ,
>>>> not one-per-Splitter Node.
>>>>
>>>> There's a rather shorter video with a better graphic [at 0:26]
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjZDBBgkps although sadly different
>>>> names (viz: Secondary Splitter Node {ex Splitter Node} and aka "CBT",
>>>> Primary Splitter Node {ex Node} and OCR {ex CCJ}, but most importantly a
>>>> new one, the Aggregation Node. It's the power to (ie active/passive
>>>> nature of) the latter I'm now looking into.
>>>>
>>>> They don't cover that in the video, but it could be passive.
>>>>
>>>>> per 32 way splitter. Currently for telephony one copper pair is routed
>>>>> to the exchange per subscriber.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can tell from the video the "32-way splitter" is the
>>>> Node/SPN, and that only has fibre back to the Aggregation Node, not the
>>>> exchange.
>>>>
>>>> Going back to my "typically up to a dozen" above, it would seem to be
>>>> the case that the connections to those up-to-32 premises would go via a
>>>> handful of telegraph poles to the hole in the ground, the exact number
>>>> of poles being determined by the physical density of customers. There
>>>> was a suggestion in the shorter video that you'd need one box (CBT) on
>>>> the pole for each eight subscribers, but the mentally exhausting BT chap
>>>> showed one with twelve.
>>>
>>> The aggregation node is just a giant jointing box. It’s where the umpteen
>>> fibre trunk cable is split out.
>>
>> I think there some words here being over-used (not our fault, the telcos
>> are perpetrating it). Like "splitter" to mean anything from a junction
>> box breaking a big bundle of cables into many smaller bundles, to a unit
>> on a telegraph pole that's not splitting fibres, but [as far as I can
>> tell] multiplexing/demultiplexing the traffic on a single fibre, to
>> multiple premises. ie it's a signal splitter, not a cable splitter.
>
>The whole point of the network is to make it entirely passive and thus
>reduce maintenance costs. Sticking an active mux in the aggregation breaks
>that. An umpteen strand fibre trunk cable is cheap. The other advantage of
>an entirely passive network is you can easily upgrade the endpoint
>electronics to get better performance, with no need to change under the
>street/up the pole infrastructure. Ignoring damage, you can probably get 50
>to 100 years use out of what is being put in. This is one reason there is
>big money financing the likes of CityFibre.


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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 07:22:57 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 06:22 UTC

In message <t4og0r$5pg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:41:15 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 02/05/2022 12:11, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>>>>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>>>>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>>>>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>>>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>>>>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not
>>>>>>by the end
>>>>>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>>>>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>>>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s
>>>>>>the same
>>>>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>>>>> took off either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
>>>>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>>>>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
>>>>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
>>>>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>>>>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
>>>>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
>>>>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
>>>>> obsolete.
>>>>
>>>> Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and certainly
>>>> will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>>>> yesterday’s battles.
>>>
>>> The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
>>> Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
>>> their listeners.

>> I’ve no idea what your point is
>
>That 1 Gbit/s is not universal in countries with more basic facilities,
>though I don't think we were discussing them in this UK newsgroup.

We were, because the "line" that I reported the R4 interviewer said was
going bad was to Kenya. I don't think the BBC would ever had conducted
such an interview over a point-to-point [leased] line, before the advent
of The Internet.

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 06:59 UTC

In message <t4qgfd$1q0$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:01:17 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>> "all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>> of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>> Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>
>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>> insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>> interview the line dies.
>>
>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>
>>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>>
>>> A phone call costs money.....
>>
>> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
>> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
>> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
>> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
>> they won't turn a hair.
>>
>> The alternative as far as they are concerned is ordering you a limo to
>> get to the nearest regional studio, which will cost them vastly more
>> (but they still did it).
>>
>> As an aside, the main reason BBC Breakfast has gone so downhill since
>> their move to Manchester (Salford for the pedants) is that the
>> population catchment area of a limo at 6.30am to the former studio in
>> London was orders of magnitude greater. Sorry, but if I can get to TV
>> Centre in an hour I might consider it, but it's over 3hrs to Salford.
>
>Breakfast interviews people who go to London (and other) studios. Pretty
>much standard for the minister of the day who is put up on the media
>circuit.

Ministers have very rarely travelled to a studio, and while post-Covid
they will generally do Zoom (or whatever) from home, before then a
"radio car" would be sent to their home to do an outside broadcast.

>And much though you will probably decry it, interviews via Zoom (other
>makes available) seem to work much better these days and they don’t
>require anyone to travel.

The dynamic changes when doing interviews remotely - there's something
special about being in the studio, and able to chat with the presenter
(or other interviewees) off-air during the previous piece.

I've done regional studio interviews and it's quite disorienting and not
at all part of a shared experience. You can usually tell when one of
those is happening because the presenter needs to give non-visual clues
to the participants about who is supposed to respond next.

eg "And can you tell us, Roland Perry, why you the government should
do..."

Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
can be something as mundane as a posh looking home-office, rather than
the broom cupboard they are really in.

Next time you see a reporter talking from the central lobby in the House
of Commons, wonder why the public walking past never ever look towards
what would be a very unusual sight for them. That's because he isn't
there - all they have in the central lobby is a TV camera, not an area
marked out on the floor for the reporter to use as temporary bricks and
mortar studio.

Very occasionally the technology fails, and I recall a reporter
discussing the then recently identified Indian variant of Covid, across
the street from a major hospital (in New Delhi or wherever) and while
their talking head was uninterrupted, the {video of the} crossflow of
traffic behind them kept stalling and restarting.

I was watching BBC Breakfast earlier, and of course the presenters were
in front of what purports to be a set of windows overlooking a
watery-featured urban landscape. But it's nothing of the sort, just a
replay of some videos taken long ago.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 09:20:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 3 May 2022 09:20 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4n1dd$hq0$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:49 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:02:43 +0100
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 30/04/2022 17:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4jnmj$194v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:21:39 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>>>>>>> having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could say the same for water and electric.
>>>>>
>>>>> And people do. The price does not reflect the cost of the infrastructure.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some services should be fundamental though sadly even today some rural
>>>>>> places still have to use septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette
>>>>>> showed how it was done.
>>>>>
>>>>> He showed how to build sewers in dense urban areas. It doesn't scale to
>>>>> the sorts of places which still have septic tanks.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely. Why try to build a sewer for over a mile for a single
>>>> household? Septic tank is far better.
>>>
>>> Why do the same for the electricity and water? Let them buy a diesel
>>> generator and dig a well, right?
>>
>> Presumably there are logistics with sewers involving needing a downhill
>> flow all the way to the treatment plant (or pumping station)?
>
> Sewers can have intermediate pumps if an entirely gravity flow can't be
> engineered in. The buildings we see called "pumping stations" are
> usually for situations where the previous outfall has been capped off,
> and the treatment plan moved to a completely different location.
>

See the words in brackets in my comment.

>> Such considerations don't apply to electricity, and less so to water
>> (which might need a vent valve if there's a hump in the pipe).
>
> The most commonplace such "humps" are water towers or ground level
> reservoirs on the top of hills. The feed to premises isn't always
> gravity (that would be too low a pressure), but often requires [booster]
> pumps too.

Roads never go up and down?

A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the water main
outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to release air
build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 3 May 2022 09:29 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 19:03:16 +0200
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
>Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of "all")
>is
>>>> an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level of the frequencies
>
>>>> that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear. Different algos will have
>>>> different ideas of what that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the
>>>> common denominator frequencies that they all agree are needed and after
>that
>>>> it won't get any worse.
>>>
>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>> one only receives every third word.
>>
>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to insist
>> on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the interview the
>> line dies. Why can't they use a phone?
>>
>>
>
>A phone call costs money.....

Buttons in comparison to the costs of running a station in general I should
imagine.

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 09:32:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 3 May 2022 09:32 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which

Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 10:42:10 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 09:42 UTC

In message <t4qs46$nlb$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:20:06 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4n1dd$hq0$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:49 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:02:43 +0100
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 30/04/2022 17:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4jnmj$194v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:21:39 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>>>>>>>> having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could say the same for water and electric.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And people do. The price does not reflect the cost of the infrastructure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some services should be fundamental though sadly even today some rural
>>>>>>> places still have to use septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette
>>>>>>> showed how it was done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He showed how to build sewers in dense urban areas. It doesn't scale to
>>>>>> the sorts of places which still have septic tanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Absolutely. Why try to build a sewer for over a mile for a single
>>>>> household? Septic tank is far better.
>>>>
>>>> Why do the same for the electricity and water? Let them buy a diesel
>>>> generator and dig a well, right?
>>>
>>> Presumably there are logistics with sewers involving needing a downhill
>>> flow all the way to the treatment plant (or pumping station)?
>>
>> Sewers can have intermediate pumps if an entirely gravity flow can't be
>> engineered in. The buildings we see called "pumping stations" are
>> usually for situations where the previous outfall has been capped off,
>> and the treatment plan moved to a completely different location.
>
>See the words in brackets in my comment.

Indeed, but what do you mean by that? Those Victorian buildings which
once had beam engines in, or an electric pump in a hole in the road,
that almost no-one realises exists?

>>> Such considerations don't apply to electricity, and less so to water
>>> (which might need a vent valve if there's a hump in the pipe).
>>
>> The most commonplace such "humps" are water towers or ground level
>> reservoirs on the top of hills. The feed to premises isn't always
>> gravity (that would be too low a pressure), but often requires [booster]
>> pumps too.
>
>Roads never go up and down?

They do, but not usually so many feet that it requires additional
pressure.

>A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the water main
>outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to release air
>build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.

How often: days, weeks, years?
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<YwtjKpsVrPciFAz+@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 10:50:13 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 09:50 UTC

In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>
>Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.

Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.

One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
(usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume it's
mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room (static)
from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).

Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be deploying
literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones are available.

One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about once a
month (from home or the office) has something like this he sits in front
of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 12:14:45 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Tue, 3 May 2022 10:14 UTC

Am 03.05.2022 um 11:32 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>
> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.

Same with Microsoft TEAMS.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 10:34:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 3 May 2022 10:34 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4qs46$nlb$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:20:06 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4n1dd$hq0$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:49 on Sun, 1 May 2022,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 1 May 2022 11:02:43 +0100
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 30/04/2022 17:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4jnmj$194v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:21:39 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:42:29 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I doubt for example that many rural customers would be impressed at
>>>>>>>>> having to pay what it actually costs to deliver telecoms services to
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You could say the same for water and electric.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And people do. The price does not reflect the cost of the infrastructure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some services should be fundamental though sadly even today some rural
>>>>>>>> places still have to use septic tanks 150 years after Bazeljette
>>>>>>>> showed how it was done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He showed how to build sewers in dense urban areas. It doesn't scale to
>>>>>>> the sorts of places which still have septic tanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Absolutely. Why try to build a sewer for over a mile for a single
>>>>>> household? Septic tank is far better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do the same for the electricity and water? Let them buy a diesel
>>>>> generator and dig a well, right?
>>>>
>>>> Presumably there are logistics with sewers involving needing a downhill
>>>> flow all the way to the treatment plant (or pumping station)?
>>>
>>> Sewers can have intermediate pumps if an entirely gravity flow can't be
>>> engineered in. The buildings we see called "pumping stations" are
>>> usually for situations where the previous outfall has been capped off,
>>> and the treatment plan moved to a completely different location.
>>
>> See the words in brackets in my comment.
>
> Indeed, but what do you mean by that? Those Victorian buildings which
> once had beam engines in, or an electric pump in a hole in the road,
> that almost no-one realises exists?
>

Anything which raises said liquid from a place where it is unable to
continue its intended journey without such assistance, to a place where it
is able to do so.

>>>> Such considerations don't apply to electricity, and less so to water
>>>> (which might need a vent valve if there's a hump in the pipe).
>>>
>>> The most commonplace such "humps" are water towers or ground level
>>> reservoirs on the top of hills. The feed to premises isn't always
>>> gravity (that would be too low a pressure), but often requires [booster]
>>> pumps too.
>>
>> Roads never go up and down?
>
> They do, but not usually so many feet that it requires additional
> pressure.
>

Who mentioned pressure? I'm talking about places where air bubbles may
collect, similar to the highest radiator in the house.

>> A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the water main
>> outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to release air
>> build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.
>
> How often: days, weeks, years?

That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. Apparently
automatic versions are also available.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 11:49:44 +0100
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 by: Certes - Tue, 3 May 2022 10:49 UTC

On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04 on
> Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated area
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>> priority
>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>> villages where
>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>> (Station Road,
>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>
>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>
>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>> situated.
>>>
>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>
>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>
> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.

Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.

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