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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4r1jq$4eb$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28994&group=uk.railway#28994

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 11:53:49 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: ColinR - Tue, 3 May 2022 10:53 UTC

On 03/05/2022 11:49, Certes wrote:
> On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>> on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>> area where
>>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>>> priority
>>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>> villages where
>>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>>> (Station Road,
>>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>
>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>> situated.
>>>>
>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>
>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>
>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>
> Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
> exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.

As with my line - over 2 miles away to the exchange with no roadside
boxes between.

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4r2bk$bpb$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=28996&group=uk.railway#28996

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 13:06:29 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Tue, 3 May 2022 11:06 UTC

Am 03.05.2022 um 12:34 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4qs46$nlb$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:20:06 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>> A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the water main
>>> outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to release air
>>> build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.
>>
>> How often: days, weeks, years?
>
> That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. Apparently
> automatic versions are also available.

I think we carefully have to separate the system behaviour of "water
mains" (which are smallish pipes, always filled and which can can flow
slightly uphill along the principle of communicating pipes) on one hand
with "sewers" (which run through large, nmostly empty pipes like
undeground rivers).

Traditional Water mains can go uphill to an altitude of 30ft when the
pipes are free of air. Modern (pumped) water mains can go further
uphill, and the uphill water pressure will automatically heal air
buildup inside the pipes.

Sewers traditionally have no chance of going uphill, but htey can be
forced uphill by pumps.

Rolf

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<Atv1t9udWSciFABj@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 12:52 UTC

In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>area where
>>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>villages where
>>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>>>(Station Road,
>>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>
>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>> situated.
>>>>
>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>
>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.

>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>
>Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.

In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
footprint will be "next door to the exchange".

It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
village and its exchange are blacked out.
--
Roland Perry

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From: chr...@cdixon.me.uk (Chris J Dixon)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 14:37:33 +0100
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 by: Chris J Dixon - Tue, 3 May 2022 13:37 UTC

Rolf Mantel wrote:

>Traditional Water mains can go uphill to an altitude of 30ft when the
>pipes are free of air. Modern (pumped) water mains can go further
>uphill, and the uphill water pressure will automatically heal air
>buildup inside the pipes.
>
>Sewers traditionally have no chance of going uphill, but htey can be
>forced uphill by pumps.

Indeed. I was quite surprised a year or two ago as they developed
the DMRC at Stanford Hall. It is a sizeable site, which was not
on a mains sewer, and about a mile from the nearest edge of East
Leake.

They used directional drilling to run a plastic pipe, only about
200 mm diameter, to the nearest existing manhole, and planned to
pump the effluent.

In this instance it wasn't really the topology that was the
problem, more the size of pipe needed to give the desired
capacity.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 15:22:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Tue, 3 May 2022 15:22 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 10:50:13 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>
>Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>
>One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>(usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume it's
>mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room (static)
>from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).
>
>Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
>something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
>preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be deploying
>literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones are available.
>
>One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about once a
>month (from home or the office) has something like this he sits in front
>of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>

I'm surprised green screen still uses actual green. Given that modern cameras
can see into the near infrared you'd think they'd use something that reflects
wavelengths below 700nm but is black to human eyes. Though I imagine someone
has thought of this and there's some reason why it can't be done, maybe
clothing reflects highly at these wavelengths or somesuch.

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:14:37 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 15:14 UTC

In message <t4r0ga$ru8$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:50 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>>>> Presumably there are logistics with sewers involving needing a downhill
>>>>> flow all the way to the treatment plant (or pumping station)?
>>>>
>>>> Sewers can have intermediate pumps if an entirely gravity flow can't be
>>>> engineered in. The buildings we see called "pumping stations" are
>>>> usually for situations where the previous outfall has been capped off,
>>>> and the treatment plan moved to a completely different location.
>>>
>>> See the words in brackets in my comment.
>>
>> Indeed, but what do you mean by that? Those Victorian buildings which
>> once had beam engines in, or an electric pump in a hole in the road,
>> that almost no-one realises exists?
>
>Anything which raises said liquid from a place where it is unable to
>continue its intended journey without such assistance, to a place where it
>is able to do so.

I expect most of them don't raise the liquid as such, but pressurise it.
But that still assists its journey when it gets to a point that's
eventually uphill of the outlet of the pumps.

>>>>> Such considerations don't apply to electricity, and less so to water
>>>>> (which might need a vent valve if there's a hump in the pipe).
>>>>
>>>> The most commonplace such "humps" are water towers or ground level
>>>> reservoirs on the top of hills. The feed to premises isn't always
>>>> gravity (that would be too low a pressure), but often requires [booster]
>>>> pumps too.
>>>
>>> Roads never go up and down?
>>
>> They do, but not usually so many feet that it requires additional
>> pressure.
>
>Who mentioned pressure?

Pressure is what forces liquids uphill.

>I'm talking about places where air bubbles may collect, similar to the
>highest radiator in the house.

Where has the air come from? Cavitation in the liquid, or somewhere
else.

>>> A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the water main
>>> outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to release air
>>> build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.
>>
>> How often: days, weeks, years?
>
>That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. Apparently
>automatic versions are also available.

There can't be very many, or manually released, because we'd see men in
Water Company vans doing it.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:57:23 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 16:57 UTC

On 03/05/2022 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4og0r$5pg$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:41:15 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>> On 02/05/2022 12:11, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4o4vt$cp8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:01 on Mon, 2 May
>>>> 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> OK.  RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which
>>>>>>> allows a
>>>>>>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997.  There was lots of
>>>>>>> related work
>>>>>>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>>>>>>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic
>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by
>>>>>>> the end
>>>>>>> stations asking for it.  The social, political and economic
>>>>>>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>>>>>>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones.  That’s
>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>>>>>>> took off either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can
>>>>>> either
>>>>>> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
>>>>>> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter
>>>>>> option
>>>>>> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
>>>>>> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't
>>>>>> possibly be
>>>>>> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the
>>>>>> waste
>>>>>> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than
>>>>>> 100M is
>>>>>> obsolete.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything slower than 1Gbit/sec is heading towards obsolete and
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> will be in a few years. You are right, it is important not to fight
>>>>> yesterday’s battles.
>>>>
>>>> The lady intermittently interviewed on R4 earlier this week, from
>>>> Kenya, will be glad to hear that. As indeed will the BBC and all
>>>> their listeners.
>
>>>  I’ve no idea what your point is
>>
>> That 1 Gbit/s is not universal in countries with more basic facilities,
>> though I don't think we were discussing them in this UK newsgroup.
>
> We were, because the "line" that I reported the R4 interviewer said was
> going bad was to Kenya. I don't think the BBC would ever had conducted
> such an interview over a point-to-point [leased] line, before the advent
> of The Internet.
>

At one time it would be done over what was referred to as a music
circuit until TPTB decdied they didn't care whether the listeners could
actually understand what was being said.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:02:49 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:02 UTC

On 03/05/2022 07:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4qgfd$1q0$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:01:17 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>> available
>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>
>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>
>>>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>>>
>>>> A phone call costs money.....
>>>
>>> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
>>> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
>>> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
>>> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
>>> they won't turn a hair.
>>>
>>> The alternative as far as they are concerned is ordering you a limo to
>>> get to the nearest regional studio, which will cost them vastly more
>>> (but they still did it).
>>>
>>> As an aside, the main reason BBC Breakfast has gone so downhill since
>>> their move to Manchester (Salford for the pedants) is that the
>>> population catchment area of a limo at 6.30am to the former studio in
>>> London was orders of magnitude greater. Sorry, but if I can get to TV
>>> Centre in an hour I might consider it, but it's over 3hrs to Salford.
>>
>> Breakfast interviews people who go to London (and other) studios. Pretty
>> much standard for the minister of the day who is put up on the media
>> circuit.
>
> Ministers have very rarely travelled to a studio, and while post-Covid
> they will generally do Zoom (or whatever) from home, before then a
> "radio car" would be sent to their home to do an outside broadcast.
>
>> And much though you will probably decry it, interviews via Zoom (other
>> makes available) seem to work much better these days and they don’t
>> require anyone to travel.
>
> The dynamic changes when doing interviews remotely - there's something
> special about being in the studio, and able to chat with the presenter
> (or other interviewees) off-air during the previous piece.
>
> I've done regional studio interviews and it's quite disorienting and not
> at all part of a shared experience. You can usually tell when one of
> those is happening because the presenter needs to give non-visual clues
> to the participants about who is supposed to respond next.
>
> eg "And can you tell us, Roland Perry, why you the government should
>     do..."
>
> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
> can be something as mundane as a posh looking home-office, rather than
> the broom cupboard they are really in.

Don't even need a green screen, though it does improve the effect. My
wife spent the whole of lockdown doing zoom meetings with a different
background every week, including a shot of a Merchant Navy at full chat

> I was watching BBC Breakfast earlier, and of course the presenters
>were in front of what purports to be a set of windows overlooking a
>watery-featured urban landscape. But it's nothing of the sort, just a
>replay of some videos taken long ago.

Videos grandad? all digital file on an SSD these days :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:10:25 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:10 UTC

On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>
> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>
>

1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
specially developed for Dr Who!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:12:20 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:12 UTC

On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>
>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works
>> about as
>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing
>> through
>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair
>> IME.
>
> Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>
> One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume it's
> mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room (static)
> from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).
>
> Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
> something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
> preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be deploying
> literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones are available.
>
> One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about once a
> month (from home or the office) has something like this he sits in front
> of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>

In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:16:42 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:16 UTC

On 03/05/2022 12:06, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 03.05.2022 um 12:34 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4qs46$nlb$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:20:06 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>> A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the
>>>> water main
>>>> outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to
>>>> release air
>>>> build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.
>>>
>>> How often: days, weeks, years?
>>
>> That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. Apparently
>> automatic versions are also available.
>
> I think we carefully have to separate the system behaviour of "water
> mains" (which are smallish pipes, always filled and which can can flow
> slightly uphill along the principle of communicating pipes) on one hand
> with "sewers" (which run through large, nmostly empty pipes like
> undeground rivers).
>
> Traditional Water mains can go uphill  to an altitude of  30ft when the
> pipes are free of air.  Modern (pumped) water mains can go further
> uphill, and the uphill water pressure will automatically heal air
> buildup inside the pipes.
>
32ft if my half-forgotten physics serves. It's why water filled
barometres weren't much of a practical proposition.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:19:33 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:19 UTC

On 03/05/2022 16:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 10:50:13 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>
>> Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>>
>> One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume it's
>> mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room (static)
>>from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).
>>
>> Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
>> something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
>> preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be deploying
>> literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones are available.
>>
>> One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about once a
>> month (from home or the office) has something like this he sits in front
>> of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>
> I'm surprised green screen still uses actual green. Given that modern cameras
> can see into the near infrared you'd think they'd use something that reflects
> wavelengths below 700nm but is black to human eyes. Though I imagine someone
> has thought of this and there's some reason why it can't be done, maybe
> clothing reflects highly at these wavelengths or somesuch.
>

They can see into the near infra-red but the definition is very poor
compared to the visible spectrum.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:34:47 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:34 UTC

In message <t4rn7p$odu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:02:49 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>isolation issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio"
>>effects, where the interviewee is actually sat in front of a green
>>screen with the equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene
>>behind them. Which can be something as mundane as a posh looking
>>home-office, rather than the broom cupboard they are really in.
>
>Don't even need a green screen, though it does improve the effect. My
>wife spent the whole of lockdown doing zoom meetings with a different
>background every week, including a shot of a Merchant Navy at full chat

The literal green screen noticeably improves the quality of the
cropping. My wife was also doing meetings all day during lockdown (via
Teams) and had various backgrounds. That didn't stop me appearing like
some kind of ghost, behind her, if I walked though the home office.

If she'd had one of those physical green screens, I have walked behind
it.

>> I was watching BBC Breakfast earlier, and of course the presenters
>>>were in front of what purports to be a set of windows overlooking a
>>>watery-featured urban landscape. But it's nothing of the sort, just a
>>>replay of some videos taken long ago.
>
>Videos grandad? all digital file on an SSD these days :-)

I refer the hon gent to previous remarks made when I criticised
BBC presenters for using obsolete terms like "on the line", on the
grounds that "everyone knows what they mean".

In any event, a video is the content, not a description of the medium
it's held on (ie I didn't mean "a replay of a [VHS] video [tape]").

cont'd: people "filming" videos, entirely digitally. Although one might
perhaps argue that the recording medium on a writable DVD is actually a
photosensitive film, of sorts.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 18:42:36 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 3 May 2022 17:42 UTC

In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>isolation
>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>
>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>shoulders are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately
>>>it works about as well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real
>>>background showing through alternating with the speaker losing
>>>parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.

>> Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.

>> One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>(usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>it's mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>(static) from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).

>> Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
>>something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
>>preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>deploying literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>are available.

>> One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>once a month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>sits in front of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>
>In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!

Back-project?

The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto a
screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-art
30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
replaced the manual projector. About 1981.

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4s3la$5si$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29033&group=uk.railway#29033

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 21:34:50 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 20:34 UTC

On 03/05/2022 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4rn7p$odu$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:02:49 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>  Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>> isolation  issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio"
>>> effects, where the  interviewee is actually sat in front of a green
>>> screen with the  equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene
>>> behind them. Which  can be something as mundane as a posh looking
>>> home-office, rather than  the broom cupboard they are really in.
>>
>> Don't even need a green screen, though it does improve the effect. My
>> wife spent the whole of lockdown doing zoom meetings with a different
>> background every week, including a shot of a Merchant Navy at full chat
>
> The literal green screen noticeably improves the quality of the
> cropping. My wife was also doing meetings all day during lockdown (via
> Teams) and had various backgrounds. That didn't stop me appearing like
> some kind of ghost, behind her, if I walked though the home office.

My wife's stuff was confidential so I never entered the room during her
work. I also adjusted the room lighting to improve the effect.

>
> If she'd had one of those physical green screens, I have walked behind it.
>
>>> I was watching BBC Breakfast earlier, and of course the presenters
>>>> were in front of what purports to be a set of windows overlooking a
>>>> watery-featured urban landscape. But it's nothing of the sort, just
>>>> a replay of some videos taken long ago.
>>
>> Videos grandad? all digital file on an SSD these days :-)
>
> I refer the hon gent to previous remarks made when I criticised
> BBC presenters for using obsolete terms like "on the line", on the
> grounds that "everyone knows what they mean".

Exactly what i was referencing :-)

>--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4s43d$9lj$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29034&group=uk.railway#29034

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 21:42:21 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Tue, 3 May 2022 20:42 UTC

On 03/05/2022 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>> isolation
>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>
>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>> shoulders  are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately
>>>> it works  about as  well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real
>>>> background showing  through  alternating with the speaker losing
>>>> parts of their anatomy and/or hair  IME.
>
>>>  Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>
>>>  One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>> it's  mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>> (static)  from anything moving a little (like the person on the call).
>
>>>  Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the person,
>>> something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better at
>>> preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>> deploying  literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>> are available.
>
>>>  One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>> once a  month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>> sits in front  of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>>
>> In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!
>
> Back-project?

Different type of screen, for obvious reasons.

>
> The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto a
> screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-art
> 30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
> replaced the manual projector. About 1981.
>

Would have thought they'd gone to chromakey before then, though
digitising the pictures would still have been advantageous. TVS
installed a digital slide system around that time, for some reason I got
involved in the project, can't remember why.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<u0g37h11baihbcsk7ufs12ld6lkjrnjhpb@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29038&group=uk.railway#29038

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 00:56:20 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Tue, 3 May 2022 23:56 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 06:55:16 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t4m97g$bbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:33:04 on Sun, 1 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various
>>>>offices whether
>>>
>>>>it be file servers or databases.
>>>
>>>But not as a "cloud".
>>
>>I can't tell if you're being tongue in cheek or not. You do realise "cloud"
>>is just marketing BS for remote computers? An FTP server could be "cloud".
>>
>>>>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy (as usual
>>>>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology
>>>>they don't
>>>
>>>>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.
>>>
>>>The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
>>>territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.
>>
>>Then don't let a 3rd party store your critical data. Simple.
>>
>>>>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail they cost
>>>>buttons to replace.
>>>
>>>Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.
>>
>>Less than replacing broken fibre I imagine since you can't just splice fibre
>>back together when it snaps.
>>
>>>Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
>>>(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
>>>or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
>>>them).
>>
>>Wow, how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being made out
>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>
>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>
>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>as your thumb.
>
The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
supply.

>And then there's the robustness of the connectors; what kills a lot of
>phone wires is crimp connections going bad.
>
> <https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-rear-view-of-a-bt-british-telecom-
>engineer-at-work-at-a-street-corner-108405703.html>
>
>[The reference to fibre is from the exchange to the cabinet, not the
> cabinet to the customer; but it's a useful halfway house - many homes
> I've lived in, the issues with the cables have been between the
> exchange and the cabinet]
>
>It's even worse when it's in an underground junction box, full of water.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<1cg37hdvi1n4svkg427sot147gtphj17b1@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29039&group=uk.railway#29039

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 01:01:55 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 4 May 2022 00:01 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>area where
>>>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>villages where
>>>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>>>>(Station Road,
>>>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>> situated.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>
>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>
>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>
>>Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>
>In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>
>It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>village and its exchange are blacked out.
>
Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
supply restored at the same rime as the village.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4t3pn$ike$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29041&group=uk.railway#29041

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 05:43:19 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 4 May 2022 05:43 UTC

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>> On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>> on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>> area where
>>>>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>> villages where
>>>>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>>>>> (Station Road,
>>>>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>>> situated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>
>>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>>
>>> Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>> exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>>
>> In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>> footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>>
>> It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>> village and its exchange are blacked out.
>>
> Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
> in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
> prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
> supply restored at the same rime as the village.
>

So a passive fibre supply for Farmer Giles would be superior. If he can
power his own equipment he can get service.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4t8fo$hi0$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29046&group=uk.railway#29046

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 07:03:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:03 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4gjdj$ul5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:11 on Fri, 29 Apr
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>>>> to National
>>>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>>> overground
>>>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>>>>> outcome of
>>>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>
>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>
>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>
>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>> sort to the top of the list.
>
> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
> to launch their mass market products.
>
> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>
> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>
> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>
> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
> end-point clients and servers.

Yes, but no one referred to the Internet, or indeed other competing
networks (DECnet, various X.25 networks, BITNET and so on) as “the cloud”
even though they were often depicted as such in presentations and
literature.

>>> [snip]
>>> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
>>> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
>>> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
>>> Ethernet in and out.
>>
>> Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?
>
> There would have been a PRI connected into one side of the box, and an
> Ethernet the other side. So we have a mirror image:
>
> +----------+ +-----+
> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
> | router A | +-----+ numbers
> +----------+ .
> ^ .
> | .
> Eventually, BT dial-up
> a direct infrastructure
> connection here
> here .
> | .
> v .
> +----------+ +-----+
> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
> | router B | +-----+ numbers
> +----------+
>
> And if either router wanted to send some packets to the other, it used
> an extant dialled-up connection, or on demand dialled fresh/additional
> ones. This numbers could of course have been anywhere connected to the
> BT switched voice infrastructure, but in this instance we limited
> ourselves to local numbers a few miles away across Central London.
>
>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>
>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>
>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>
> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
> felt like 128k x 16.

Yes, that is an E1 (though there were probably subtle differnces between
what you got if you ordere an E1 vs ordering a PRI), but on ISDN you only
got 15 x 128 Kbps channels.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4t8fo$hi0$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 07:03:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:03 UTC

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4gjdj$ul5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:11 on Fri, 29 Apr
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>>>>> to National
>>>>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>>>> overground
>>>>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>>>>>> outcome of
>>>>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>>
>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>
>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>
>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>> sort to the top of the list.
>>
>> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
>> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
>> to launch their mass market products.
>>
>> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
>> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>>
>> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>>
>> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
>> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
>> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>>
>> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
>> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
>> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
>> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
>> end-point clients and servers.
>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
>>>> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
>>>> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
>>>> Ethernet in and out.
>>>
>>> Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?
>>
>> There would have been a PRI connected into one side of the box, and an
>> Ethernet the other side. So we have a mirror image:
>>
>> +----------+ +-----+
>> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
>> | router A | +-----+ numbers
>> +----------+ .
>> ^ .
>> | .
>> Eventually, BT dial-up
>> a direct infrastructure
>> connection here
>> here .
>> | .
>> v .
>> +----------+ +-----+
>> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
>> | router B | +-----+ numbers
>> +----------+
>>
>> And if either router wanted to send some packets to the other, it used
>> an extant dialled-up connection, or on demand dialled fresh/additional
>> ones. This numbers could of course have been anywhere connected to the
>> BT switched voice infrastructure, but in this instance we limited
>> ourselves to local numbers a few miles away across Central London.
>>
>>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>
>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>>
>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
>> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
>> felt like 128k x 16.
>
> The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
> connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
> voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
> (2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.

That’s odd - an E1 was (is) full duplex, so when you use a 64 Kbps channel
in one direction you get the other direction as well - 32 bidirectional
channels in total, of which some are reserved. I dealt almost exclusively
in data networking rather than voice (until voice started to be carried
over packet networks) and I didn’t have to deal with the individual
channels, I just saw 2 Mbps raw data.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<ymAJf2CimiciFAGM@perry.uk>

 copy mid

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 08:22:10 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:22 UTC

In message <u0g37h11baihbcsk7ufs12ld6lkjrnjhpb@4ax.com>, at 00:56:20 on
Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 3 May 2022 06:55:16 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t4m97g$bbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:33:04 on Sun, 1 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various
>>>>>offices whether
>>>>
>>>>>it be file servers or databases.
>>>>
>>>>But not as a "cloud".
>>>
>>>I can't tell if you're being tongue in cheek or not. You do realise "cloud"
>>>is just marketing BS for remote computers? An FTP server could be "cloud".
>>>
>>>>>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy
>>>>>(as usual
>>>>>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology
>>>>>they don't
>>>>
>>>>>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.
>>>>
>>>>The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
>>>>territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.
>>>
>>>Then don't let a 3rd party store your critical data. Simple.
>>>
>>>>>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail
>>>>>they cost
>>>>>buttons to replace.
>>>>
>>>>Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.
>>>
>>>Less than replacing broken fibre I imagine since you can't just splice fibre
>>>back together when it snaps.
>>>
>>>>Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
>>>>(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
>>>>or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
>>>>them).
>>>
>>>Wow, how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being made out
>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>
>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>
>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>as your thumb.
>>
>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>supply.

I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
including insulation and armouring.

100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
insulation about twice that).

Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
100th the current carrying capacity.

In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.

*squared
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 07:56:10 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:56 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>> "all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>> of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>> Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>>
>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>>> one only receives every third word.
>
>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>> insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>> interview the line dies.
>
> Ahem! The cloud dies.

Ahem! All sorts of things might die. The effect is that the virtual line
between the participants dies.

>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>
>> A phone call costs money.....
>
> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
> they won't turn a hair.

Any large scale organisation will probably have phone contracts, both
mobile and land line, with inclusive minutes. The marginal cost of any
single phone call will be zero.

Sam

--
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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<LHQXX2Eg$iciFAju@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 08:48:48 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:48 UTC

In message <1cg37hdvi1n4svkg427sot147gtphj17b1@4ax.com>, at 01:01:55 on
Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>>on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>>area where
>>>>>>>>>>> restoration of the public electricity supply will be a higher
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (and often easier) than where the more distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>>villages where
>>>>>>>>>> the telephone exchange is no less rural than the housing.
>>>>>>>>>>(Station Road,
>>>>>>>>>> Melbourn, for example; the station being Meldreth.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>>> situated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>
>>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>>
>>>Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>>exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>>
>>In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>>footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>>
>>It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>>village and its exchange are blacked out.
>>
>Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
>in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
>prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
>supply restored at the same rime as the village.

Actually, Farmer Giles doesn't need his power restoring at the same time
as he village, if he has a generator, or as is quite likely his power
arrives (on poles across fields) from a different direction than the
village.

I know some people are bored with the "Ely Triangle", but there's yet
another feature of it that I'm sure the vast majority of locals are
unaware of. And it's not entirely disjoint from the electrification of
the Fen Line.

About four miles north of Ely (and not far from the neutral section
adjacent to Littleport Station) there's a line in the sand^H^H peat,
where everything south is powered by daisy-chained substations traceable
back to Cambridge; and everything north daisy-chained substations
traceable back to Kings Lynn.

The landmark supergrid pylons which broadly follow the railway line from
Cambridge to Kings Lynn has no nodes in between, and in fact there's a
farm literally in the shadow of one of the pylons with no mains power at
all - they still have a diesel generator hut.

Meanwhile the "01353" Ely phone code, which for now I'll assume is
backhauled to Cambridge, reaches all the way past Littleport to the
Norfolk border and slightly beyond to include for example Brandon Creek
exchange.

https://www.geopunk.co.uk/phone-area-codes/01353-ely

So there's quite a broad swathe where the exchange(s) and the
subscribers could be powered in a distinctly non-overlapping way.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4tbu0$9kk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 08:02:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Wed, 4 May 2022 08:02 UTC

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 01 May 2022 20:29:00 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> OK. RSVP, the internet resource reservation protocol, which allows a
>> host to request, say an uncongested 64 Kbps of bandwidth on a particular
>> flow of data, was standardised in 1997. There was lots of related work
>> over the next 10 years or so and I never ever saw it implemented in
>> practice. Recognising and prioritising voice and video traffic inside
>> corporate networks is common, but that’s done statically, not by the end
>> stations asking for it. The social, political and economic
>> considerations for allowing people to reserve bandwidth across the
>> public Internet have simply dwarfed the technical ones. That’s the same
>> reason why public ATM and switched wavelength optical networks never
>> took off either.
>
> I think it's been overtaken by falling costs of bandwidth. You can either
> implement a complex system of reservations to check if there's enough
> capacity before you start a call, or throw enough bandwidth at it that
> there's almost certain to be enough without checking. The latter option
> wasn't practical in 1997 but is today. At work we have a system with
> capacity for 90 calls running over a 100M circuit. It can't possibly be
> more than 1% used, ever. In the 1990s you'd be screamed at for the waste
> of resources. In the 2020s, no-one cares as anything slower than 100M is
> obsolete.

In 1997 I visited a couple of Universities in Canada and spent some time
with their network managers. They were both waiting for new kit, one for
155 Mbps ATM, with which he could control how much traffic went where; the
other was waiting for Gigabit ethernet so he didn’t have to bother.
Clearly the latter approach won out at least, as Roland points out later in
the thread, in more affluent countries, though it does still have issues -
it’s entirely possible for almost any kind of connection to get congested
under some circumstances.

Sam

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