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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<nmQMfmFiHjciFA0C@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29052&group=uk.railway#29052

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!lilly.ping.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 08:57:22 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <nmQMfmFiHjciFA0C@perry.uk>
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 07:57 UTC

In message <t4t3pn$ike$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:43:19 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>> On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>>> on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>>>area where restoration of the public electricity supply
>>>>>>>>>>>>will be a higher (and often easier) than where the more
>>>>>>>>>>>>distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>villages where the telephone exchange is no less rural than
>>>>>>>>>>> (Station Road, Melbourn, for example; the station being
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>>>> situated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>>
>>>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>>> exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>>>
>>> In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>>> footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>>>
>>> It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>>> village and its exchange are blacked out.
>>>
>> Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
>> in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
>> prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
>> supply restored at the same rime as the village.
>
>So a passive fibre supply for Farmer Giles would be superior. If he can
>power his own equipment he can get service.

Yes, as long as the building with the head end (and I'm not sure we are
much closer to understanding were that is) has power.

Take my example of Brandon Creek (in southwest Norfolk). I think we
probably all agree it won't be at Brandon Creek's "exchange" (up to 4
miles) but will it be at Littleport (the closest large exchange building
- another 4 miles), at Ely (home to the dialling code - another 4
miles), or Cambridge (biggest regional exchange - another 16 miles;
total 28 miles)

All those distances as the crow flies.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<aWHDjHH9SjciFAQn@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29053&group=uk.railway#29053

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:09:33 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 79
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 08:09 UTC

In message <t4s43d$9lj$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:42:21 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 03/05/2022 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>>>isolation
>>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>>
>>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>>>shoulders  are and insert an image behind the speaker.
>>>>>Unfortunately it works  about as  well as 1970s greenscreen with
>>>>>bits of the real background showing  through  alternating with the
>>>>>speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair  IME.
>>
>>>>  Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>>
>>>>  One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>>>(usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>>>it's  mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>>>(static)  from anything moving a little (like the person on the
>>>>call).
>>
>>>>  Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the
>>>>person, something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better
>>>>at preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>>>deploying  literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>>>are available.
>>
>>>>  One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>>>once a  month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>>>sits in front  of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>>>
>>> In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!

>> Back-project?
>
>Different type of screen, for obvious reasons.

We may be at cross purposes, because I'm not sure why a TV newsreader or
someone they were interviewing in an outside broadcast would be having
stuff front-projected onto a white screen behind them.

>> The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto
>>a screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-
>>art 30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
>>replaced the manual projector. About 1981.
>
>Would have thought they'd gone to chromakey before then,

Chromakey was used for whole-screen backdrops, wasn't it. Not the over-
the-shoulder screen typical in a newsroom:

<https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>

[My wife had hair like that!] And that one looks a bit more picture-in-
picture than literally a screen in shot. But it's probably seven or
eight years later than the system I was describing.

>though digitising the pictures would still have been advantageous. TVS
>installed a digital slide system around that time, for some reason I
>got involved in the project, can't remember why.

iirc the slides had to be changed manually by someone literally behind
the scenes on the newsroom floor, and it was hard to time it right
(and/or not put the slides in upside down/back to front etc). Going
digital meant it was possible to skip through them reliably from the
control room.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4te5p$pti$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29056&group=uk.railway#29056

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:40:25 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 08:40 UTC

On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4s43d$9lj$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:42:21 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 03/05/2022 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>>>> isolation
>>>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>>>> shoulders  are and insert an image behind the speaker.
>>>>>> Unfortunately it works  about as  well as 1970s greenscreen with
>>>>>> bits of the real background showing  through  alternating with the
>>>>>> speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair  IME.
>>>
>>>>>  Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>>>
>>>>>  One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>>>> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>>>> it's  mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>>>> (static)  from anything moving a little (like the person on the
>>>>> call).
>>>
>>>>>  Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the
>>>>> person, something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better
>>>>> at preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>>>> deploying  literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>>>> are available.
>>>
>>>>>  One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>>>> once a  month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>>>> sits in front  of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>>>>
>>>> In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!
>
>>> Back-project?
>>
>> Different type of screen, for obvious reasons.
>
> We may be at cross purposes, because I'm not sure why a TV newsreader or
> someone they were interviewing in an outside broadcast would be having
> stuff front-projected onto a white screen behind them.

A screen used for back projection is very different to one used for
front projection. A green screen for chromakey is, by definition, a
front projection screen.

>
>>> The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto
>>> a screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-
>>> art 30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
>>> replaced the manual projector. About 1981.
>>
>> Would have thought they'd gone to chromakey before then,
>
> Chromakey was used for whole-screen backdrops, wasn't it. Not the over-
> the-shoulder screen typical in a newsroom:
>
> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>

Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but a blue painted panel on
the set was often used to insert over-shoulder images on news
programmes. TVS news used such a device for instance.

>
> [My wife had hair like that!] And that one looks a bit more picture-in-
> picture than literally a screen in shot. But it's probably seven or
> eight years later than the system I was describing.
>
>> though digitising the pictures would still have been advantageous. TVS
>> installed a digital slide system around that time, for some reason I
>> got involved in the project, can't remember why.
>
> iirc the slides had to be changed manually by someone literally behind
> the scenes on the newsroom floor, and it was hard to time it right
> (and/or not put the slides in upside down/back to front etc). Going
> digital meant it was possible to skip through them reliably from the
> control room.

Sounds very antiquated, never actually seen that done on a regular
basis. BBC current affairs in Lime Grove (separate from News) had a
device, referred to as a Telejector, or TJ.[1] Which was basically a
stills version of a telecine machine. It was in the back of the
production gallery and for some reason was the job of the camera
department to operate it. The output was normally fed to the
vision-mixer to insert into the chromakey or used full-frame. That was
back in the early 70s. One of the most confusing on-air instructions I
got was "Run TJ" (how?).

[1]The BBC loves their initials!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:16:27 +0200
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:16 UTC

Am 03.05.2022 um 19:16 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 03/05/2022 12:06, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 03.05.2022 um 12:34 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4qs46$nlb$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:20:06 on Tue, 3 May
>>>> 2022,
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> A friend recently posted elsewhere about the vent valves in the
>>>>> water main
>>>>> outside his house, opened periodically by the water company to
>>>>> release air
>>>>> build-up at the top of the 'hump' in the pipe.
>>>>
>>>> How often: days, weeks, years?
>>>
>>> That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer.
>>> Apparently
>>> automatic versions are also available.
>>
>> I think we carefully have to separate the system behaviour of "water
>> mains" (which are smallish pipes, always filled and which can can flow
>> slightly uphill along the principle of communicating pipes) on one
>> hand with "sewers" (which run through large, nmostly empty pipes like
>> undeground rivers).
>>
>> Traditional Water mains can go uphill  to an altitude of  30ft when
>> the pipes are free of air.  Modern (pumped) water mains can go further
>> uphill, and the uphill water pressure will automatically heal air
>> buildup inside the pipes.
>>
> 32ft if my half-forgotten physics serves. It's why water filled
> barometres weren't much of a practical proposition.

Sure, my attempts to transfer my metric knowledge to imperial values are
always accompanied by generous rounding.

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:17:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:17 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 18:10:25 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>
>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>
>>
>
>1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>specially developed for Dr Who!

Anything to do with Tom Bakers scarf? :)

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 09:20:06 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:20 UTC

On Tue, 3 May 2022 18:19:33 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 03/05/2022 16:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 10:50:13 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'm surprised green screen still uses actual green. Given that modern cameras
>
>> can see into the near infrared you'd think they'd use something that reflects
>
>> wavelengths below 700nm but is black to human eyes. Though I imagine someone
>> has thought of this and there's some reason why it can't be done, maybe
>> clothing reflects highly at these wavelengths or somesuch.
>>
>
>They can see into the near infra-red but the definition is very poor
>compared to the visible spectrum.

Yes, I suppose camera lenses arn't designed for focusing IR. Interestingly
you can get a similar issue with the human eye. Eg when I look at my hifi in
the dark the red leds are pin sharp but the blue leds are slightly blurry.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:58:43 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 09:58 UTC

On 04/05/2022 10:17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2022 18:10:25 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>
>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>> specially developed for Dr Who!
>
> Anything to do with Tom Bakers scarf? :)
>

Long before Tom, Very simply, the TARDIS was blue.

Thinking about it, Tom's first series as Dr Who was the last one I
worked on before leaving the BBC.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:05:13 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:05 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>
>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>
>>
>
> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
> specially developed for Dr Who!
>

With modern green screens, do presenters have to carefully avoid wearing
anything green (including green-spotted ties, badges with green in them,
any jewellery containing green stones, etc)? Or is the tech smart enough
to ignore small green areas in larger non-green areas?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4tjfu$4a7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:11:11 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:11 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
>> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>
>
> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but

Interesting, did the <>s not keep it as a clickable URL for you? Worked
fine here.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:20:39 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:20 UTC

On 04/05/2022 11:05, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>
>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>> specially developed for Dr Who!
>>
>
> With modern green screens, do presenters have to carefully avoid wearing
> anything green (including green-spotted ties, badges with green in them,
> any jewellery containing green stones, etc)? Or is the tech smart enough
> to ignore small green areas in larger non-green areas?
>

I think it is not as critical as it used to be, there are various useful
trimming controls but I've not been professionally involved in the field
for a dozen years and that's a lifetime or two in technology.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t4tka4$an0$2@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:25:08 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:25 UTC

On 04/05/2022 11:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
>>> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>>
>>
>> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but
>
> Interesting, did the <>s not keep it as a clickable URL for you? Worked
> fine here.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland's long links always end up inserting a spurious %20 and I wasn't
inclined to hunt it down. Apparently it conforms with an RFC developed
back in the stone age.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<UDqQ2kLIUlciFAx8@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:27:20 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 120
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:27 UTC

In message <t4te5p$pti$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:25 on Wed, 4 May 2022, Graeme
Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4s43d$9lj$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:42:21 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 03/05/2022 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>>>>> isolation
>>>>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>>>>> shoulders  are and insert an image behind the speaker.
>>>>>>> Unfortunately it works  about as  well as 1970s greenscreen with
>>>>>>> bits of the real background showing  through  alternating with the
>>>>>>> speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair  IME.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>>>>
>>>>>>  One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>>>>> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>>>>> it's  mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>>>>> (static)  from anything moving a little (like the person on the
>>>>>> call).
>>>>
>>>>>>  Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the
>>>>>> person, something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better
>>>>>> at preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>>>>> deploying  literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>>>>> are available.
>>>>
>>>>>>  One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>>>>> once a  month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>>>>> sits in front  of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!
>>
>>>> Back-project?
>>>
>>> Different type of screen, for obvious reasons.

>> We may be at cross purposes, because I'm not sure why a TV newsreader or
>> someone they were interviewing in an outside broadcast would be having
>> stuff front-projected onto a white screen behind them.
>
>A screen used for back projection is very different to one used for front
>projection. A green screen for chromakey is, by definition, a front projection
>screen.

I'm querying where the "white" bit comes in.

>>>> The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto
>>>> a screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-
>>>> art 30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
>>>> replaced the manual projector. About 1981.
>>>
>>> Would have thought they'd gone to chromakey before then,

>> Chromakey was used for whole-screen backdrops, wasn't it. Not the over-
>> the-shoulder screen typical in a newsroom:

>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo8
73ip1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>
>Can't be bothered to reassemble that link

Another Thunderbird user? Although to some extent the blame has to lay with
blogspot for stupidly long names.

I'll jpeg it for you, too: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Jan_Leeming.jpg

>but a blue painted panel on the set was often used to insert over-shoulder
>images on news programmes. TVS news used such a device for instance.

I'm talking about before then, when it was a hole in the backdrop, with a
physical screen embedded in it.

>> [My wife had hair like that!] And that one looks a bit more picture-in-
>> picture than literally a screen in shot. But it's probably seven or
>> eight years later than the system I was describing.
>>
>>> though digitising the pictures would still have been advantageous. TVS
>>> installed a digital slide system around that time, for some reason I
>>> got involved in the project, can't remember why.

>> iirc the slides had to be changed manually by someone literally behind
>> the scenes on the newsroom floor, and it was hard to time it right
>> (and/or not put the slides in upside down/back to front etc). Going
>> digital meant it was possible to skip through them reliably from the
>> control room.
>
>Sounds very antiquated, never actually seen that done on a regular basis.

As I said before, the period in question was the very early 80's

>BBC current affairs in Lime Grove (separate from News) had a device, referred
>to as a Telejector, or TJ.[1] Which was basically a stills version of a
>telecine machine.

Was it fed slides, to project?

>It was in the back of the production gallery and for some reason was the job of
>the camera department to operate it. The output was normally fed to the vision-
>mixer to insert into the chromakey or used full-frame. That was back in the
>early 70s. One of the most confusing on-air instructions I got was "Run TJ"
>(how?).
>
>[1]The BBC loves their initials!

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<VCxAG+MkjlciFARN@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:43:48 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:43 UTC

In message <t4tka4$an0$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:25:08 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 04/05/2022 11:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSr
>>>>fFtJo873i
>>>> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but

>> Interesting, did the <>s not keep it as a clickable URL for you?
>>Worked fine here.
>
>Roland's long links always end up inserting a spurious %20

Not always, and it shouldn't matter anyway. And I think it's %0A, but
whatever.

Meanwhile, I also regard it as suboptimal for blogspot to have a picture
named "15.+Jan+Leeming.png" as it's an accident waiting to happen,
although my reader converts the two non-alphanumeric characters to %2B,
as expected.

You'll note I used the more widely accepted underscore to join Jan to
Leeming.

>and I wasn't inclined to hunt it down. Apparently it conforms with an
>RFC developed back in the stone age.

Oddly enough, much of what's known as the WWW was developed (and
documented in rfcs) back in what you call "the Stone Age".

This particular aspect is belt and braces, because *not only* for good
reasons described in the rfc, white space in urls represented within
text should be ignored, but there's this extra stipulation that "for
those who didn't get our earlier memo, seeing something bracketed with
these delimiters should make it a no-brainer".

I can't believe we are *still* having this discussion, for perhaps the
hundredth time.

--
Roland Perry

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:56:34 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 10:56 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 10:05:13 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>
>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>> specially developed for Dr Who!
>>
>
>With modern green screens, do presenters have to carefully avoid wearing
>anything green (including green-spotted ties, badges with green in them,
>any jewellery containing green stones, etc)? Or is the tech smart enough
>to ignore small green areas in larger non-green areas?

Probably a bit of an ask for 1970s tech even if it was just going by area
size rather than shape as it would need to preprocess the entire image
before actual processing in real time 25 times a second. A Cray might have been
able to do it but not some analogue kit. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong!

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Recliner - Wed, 4 May 2022 11:07 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 10:56:34 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Wed, 4 May 2022 10:05:13 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>
>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>>> specially developed for Dr Who!
>>>
>>
>>With modern green screens, do presenters have to carefully avoid wearing
>>anything green (including green-spotted ties, badges with green in them,
>>any jewellery containing green stones, etc)? Or is the tech smart enough
>>to ignore small green areas in larger non-green areas?
>
>Probably a bit of an ask for 1970s tech even if it was just going by area
>size rather than shape as it would need to preprocess the entire image
>before actual processing in real time 25 times a second. A Cray might have been
>able to do it but not some analogue kit. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong!

I asked about modern green screens, not their 1970s ancestors.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 11:13:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 4 May 2022 11:13 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/05/2022 11:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
>>>> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but
>>
>> Interesting, did the <>s not keep it as a clickable URL for you? Worked
>> fine here.
>>
>
> Roland's long links always end up inserting a spurious %20 and I wasn't
> inclined to hunt it down. Apparently it conforms with an RFC developed
> back in the stone age.
>

Not in this one AFAICT, and the link is still clickable for me even four
quotes later.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:06:28 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:06 UTC

On 04/05/2022 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4te5p$pti$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:25 on Wed, 4 May 2022, Graeme
> Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4s43d$9lj$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:42:21 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 03/05/2022 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4rnpk$st3$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:12:20 on Tue, 3 May
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/05/2022 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4qss2$4ed$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:32:50 on Tue, 3 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the
>>>>>>>>> isolation
>>>>>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and
>>>>>>>> shoulders  are and insert an image behind the speaker.
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately it works  about as  well as 1970s greenscreen with
>>>>>>>> bits of the real background showing  through  alternating with the
>>>>>>>> speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair  IME.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Yes, it can be pretty awful. Ditto with Teams.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  One of the biggest fails is deciding to "reveal" a moving object
>>>>>>> (usually another person) within the field of view. So we can assume
>>>>>>> it's  mainly trying to distinguish between the far side of the room
>>>>>>> (static)  from anything moving a little (like the person on the
>>>>>>> call).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Most often the distraction is a noticeable "halo" around the
>>>>>>> person, something which broadcast TV green-screening is much better
>>>>>>> at preventing but not entirely so. But then they will usually be
>>>>>>> deploying  literally a green screen behind the person. Portable ones
>>>>>>> are available.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  One of my friends who appears as a talking head on TV News about
>>>>>>> once a  month (from home or the office) has something like this he
>>>>>>> sits in front  of: <https://televisionstudiovideo.com/tag/green/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my day that was white and used to project slides and cine film on to!
>>>
>>>>> Back-project?
>>>>
>>>> Different type of screen, for obvious reasons.
>
>>> We may be at cross purposes, because I'm not sure why a TV newsreader or
>>> someone they were interviewing in an outside broadcast would be having
>>> stuff front-projected onto a white screen behind them.
>>
>> A screen used for back projection is very different to one used for front
>> projection. A green screen for chromakey is, by definition, a front projection
>> screen.
>
> I'm querying where the "white" bit comes in.
>
>>>>> The old TV newsroom had a slide projector which back-projected onto
>>>>> a screen behind the newsreader. I sold BBC Research a state-of-the-
>>>>> art 30MB HDD upon which they subsequently digitised the pictures and
>>>>> replaced the manual projector. About 1981.
>>>>
>>>> Would have thought they'd gone to chromakey before then,
>
>>> Chromakey was used for whole-screen backdrops, wasn't it. Not the over-
>>> the-shoulder screen typical in a newsroom:
>
>>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo8
> 73ip1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>
>> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link
>
> Another Thunderbird user? Although to some extent the blame has to lay with
> blogspot for stupidly long names.
>
> I'll jpeg it for you, too: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Jan_Leeming.jpg
>
>> but a blue painted panel on the set was often used to insert over-shoulder
>> images on news programmes. TVS news used such a device for instance.
>
> I'm talking about before then, when it was a hole in the backdrop, with a
> physical screen embedded in it.

Seen that used occasionally, current affairs at the Beeb didn't
generally go in for it. Instead we had a cumbersome system of a blue
panel in the appropriate place on the set and the insert image on a
monitor which a camera had to look at and frame to get the full frame in
the panel. We had a colour correction filter in the cameras to
compensate for the monitor being daylight balanced. This was long before
digital vision mixers that could do the positioning for you.

>
>>> [My wife had hair like that!] And that one looks a bit more picture-in-
>>> picture than literally a screen in shot. But it's probably seven or
>>> eight years later than the system I was describing.
>>>
>>>> though digitising the pictures would still have been advantageous. TVS
>>>> installed a digital slide system around that time, for some reason I
>>>> got involved in the project, can't remember why.
>
>>> iirc the slides had to be changed manually by someone literally behind
>>> the scenes on the newsroom floor, and it was hard to time it right
>>> (and/or not put the slides in upside down/back to front etc). Going
>>> digital meant it was possible to skip through them reliably from the
>>> control room.
>>
>> Sounds very antiquated, never actually seen that done on a regular basis.
>
> As I said before, the period in question was the very early 80's
>
>> BBC current affairs in Lime Grove (separate from News) had a device, referred
>> to as a Telejector, or TJ.[1] Which was basically a stills version of a
>> telecine machine.
>
> Was it fed slides, to project?

Yes, generally preloaded before the programme but, inevitably, there
would be changes during transmission. Once, when setting the system up
for the late evening current affairs programme, I discovered someone had
been using it to look at his own pictures and had left in a shot of a
well-endowed and very naked young lady sitting on the bar in a pub
somewhere. Never discovered who was responsible.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:11:46 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Certes - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:11 UTC

On 04/05/2022 08:03, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 29/04/2022 14:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4gjdj$ul5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:11 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4gapj$s76$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:59 on Fri, 29 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <SBAxWuC4AlaiFAAs@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>>>> In message <t4but4$5di$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:35:32 on Wed, 27 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The Tube" in common parlance
>>>>>>>>>> (and the BBC News site is write for lay people, not railway experts) has
>>>>>>>>>> long meant "the whole London Underground system" - ie as opposed
>>>>>>>>>> to National
>>>>>>>>>> Rail (formerly British Rail). The distinction between tube stock,
>>>>>>>>>> overground
>>>>>>>>>> stock and NR stock is a matter of size, but I doubt whether the
>>>>>>>>>> outcome of
>>>>>>>>>> being hit by one rather than the other would be much different.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It’s not just common parlance - it is used by TFL for both deep and sub
>>>>>>>>> surface lines:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/tube/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's one of those words whose original derivation has been
>>>>>>>> adopted [colloquially and as official branding] for a wider range
>>>>>>>> of technologies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not that even the original 'Underground' lines were entirely that, much
>>>>>>>> being on the surface, or even embankments/viaducts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get more irritated when I hear radio news/current_affairs presenters
>>>>>>>> complaining that "the line" between them and an interviewee is breaking
>>>>>>>> up. It's a CLOUD, ffs!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cloud = my data on someone else’s computers,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud computing", though. You first need the cloud
>>>>> to connect them all together. The most well known example being The
>>>>> Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>>> except that the word cloud now seems to be replacing web at a general
>>>>>> catchall for some kind of networked service.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's shorthand for "Cloud services".
>>>>
>>>> But no one ever called the Internet the cloud until cloud services started
>>>> to be offered, except “_The Cloud” wireless hotspot operator. Yes, they
>>>> had an underscore at the beginning of their network name so that it would
>>>> sort to the top of the list.
>>>
>>> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
>>> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
>>> to launch their mass market products.
>>>
>>> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
>>> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>>>
>>> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>>>
>>> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
>>> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
>>> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>>>
>>> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
>>> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
>>> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
>>> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
>>> end-point clients and servers.
>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> The first cross-London Internet backbone connection I helped install was
>>>>> dial-on-demand ISDN [16 channels per box] and it was much quicker to
>>>>> deploy than a proper leased line. Some might call it a "bridge", with
>>>>> Ethernet in and out.
>>>>
>>>> Not a PRI with 30B + 1D channel?
>>>
>>> There would have been a PRI connected into one side of the box, and an
>>> Ethernet the other side. So we have a mirror image:
>>>
>>> +----------+ +-----+
>>> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
>>> | router A | +-----+ numbers
>>> +----------+ .
>>> ^ .
>>> | .
>>> Eventually, BT dial-up
>>> a direct infrastructure
>>> connection here
>>> here .
>>> | .
>>> v .
>>> +----------+ +-----+
>>> | Internet | - 10meg Ethernet - | Box | - PRI with dial-up
>>> | router B | +-----+ numbers
>>> +----------+
>>>
>>> And if either router wanted to send some packets to the other, it used
>>> an extant dialled-up connection, or on demand dialled fresh/additional
>>> ones. This numbers could of course have been anywhere connected to the
>>> BT switched voice infrastructure, but in this instance we limited
>>> ourselves to local numbers a few miles away across Central London.
>>>
>>>>> Lots of ISPs used similar boxes "backwards" (or so I always considered
>>>>> it) by attaching the ISDN ports to regular voice lines [ISDN delivered
>>>>> of course, like it was to most new PABX at the time] and then you
>>>>> plugged the Ethernet into the local backbone and you have a POP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, getting back to "what's a leased line" if you ordered lets
>>>>> say a two megabit version off BT it was actually delivered by bonding
>>>>> together sixteen [that number again] regular ISDN lines.
>>>>
>>>> Errmm. IIRC BT’s ISDN PRI was delivered on a 2 Mbps bearer with 30x64 Kbps
>>>> B channels and 1x64 Kbps D channel, with a further 64 Kbps channel of
>>>> overhead, making 32 channels in all.
>>>
>>> My recollection is that an E1 is 2 megabits, and while the scheme above
>>> uses 32 channels, you can only dial them up in pairs. So the granularity
>>> felt like 128k x 16.
>>
>> The private-circuit switches I worked on around 1990 (for BT and others)
>> connected pairs of 64k circuits, as they were designed to carry two-way
>> voice with one circuit per direction. They came in bundles of 16 pairs
>> (2Mbit/s total), of which one pair was reserved for control signals.
>
> That’s odd - an E1 was (is) full duplex, so when you use a 64 Kbps channel
> in one direction you get the other direction as well - 32 bidirectional
> channels in total, of which some are reserved. I dealt almost exclusively
> in data networking rather than voice (until voice started to be carried
> over packet networks) and I didn’t have to deal with the individual
> channels, I just saw 2 Mbps raw data.

Probably not an E1 then. It's not a term I recall hearing, though my
memory of some details may have faded in the last 30+ years.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29086&group=uk.railway#29086

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:13:02 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:13 UTC

On 04/05/2022 11:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2022 10:05:13 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/05/2022 10:32, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 07:59:41 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Zoom is a reasonable middle course, but still suffers from the isolation
>>>>> issues. Of course, it's plagued by "virtual studio" effects, where the
>>>>> interviewee is actually sat in front of a green screen with the
>>>>> equivalent of a back-projection of a relevant scene behind them. Which
>>>>
>>>> Zoom has "AI" built in that can figure out where the head and shoulders
>>>> are and insert an image behind the speaker. Unfortunately it works about as
>>>> well as 1970s greenscreen with bits of the real background showing through
>>>> alternating with the speaker losing parts of their anatomy and/or hair IME.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1970s green screen was actually blue, when it wasn't yellow! The latter
>>> specially developed for Dr Who!
>>>
>>
>> With modern green screens, do presenters have to carefully avoid wearing
>> anything green (including green-spotted ties, badges with green in them,
>> any jewellery containing green stones, etc)? Or is the tech smart enough
>> to ignore small green areas in larger non-green areas?
>
> Probably a bit of an ask for 1970s tech even if it was just going by area
> size rather than shape as it would need to preprocess the entire image
> before actual processing in real time 25 times a second. A Cray might have been
> able to do it but not some analogue kit. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong!
>

The only tweak we had in the 70s was a relatively restricted adjustment
of the clipping level. A classic example of the problem was, again on Dr
Who, when the Doctor's assistant was played by Katy Manning. She was
very blond and had been dressed in a yellow dress, gold tights, yellow
shoes and gold make up. She stepped out of the TARDIS and vanished!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29087&group=uk.railway#29087

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:13:34 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Wed, 4 May 2022 12:13 UTC

On 04/05/2022 12:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/05/2022 11:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/05/2022 09:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ULt_MC_9Zzs/W0j7EJGcApI/AAAAAAAAFm0/BUGSrfFtJo873i
>>>>> p1a0S0WCsHC9yJ5SzNwCLcBGAs/s1600/15.%2BJan%2BLeeming.png>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can't be bothered to reassemble that link but
>>>
>>> Interesting, did the <>s not keep it as a clickable URL for you? Worked
>>> fine here.
>>>
>>
>> Roland's long links always end up inserting a spurious %20 and I wasn't
>> inclined to hunt it down. Apparently it conforms with an RFC developed
>> back in the stone age.
>>
>
> Not in this one AFAICT, and the link is still clickable for me even four
> quotes later.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Sorry, just winding Roland up :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 17:17:01 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 4 May 2022 17:17 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4t3pn$ike$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:43:19 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>>>> on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at 20:27:12 on
>>>>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> area where restoration of the public electricity supply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be a higher (and often easier) than where the more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>> villages where the telephone exchange is no less rural than
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Station Road, Melbourn, for example; the station being
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>>>>> situated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>>>
>>>>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>>>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>>>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>>>> exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>>>>
>>>> In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>>>> footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>>>> village and its exchange are blacked out.
>>>>
>>> Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
>>> in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
>>> prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
>>> supply restored at the same rime as the village.
>>
>> So a passive fibre supply for Farmer Giles would be superior. If he can
>> power his own equipment he can get service.
>
> Yes, as long as the building with the head end (and I'm not sure we are
> much closer to understanding were that is) has power.
>
> Take my example of Brandon Creek (in southwest Norfolk). I think we
> probably all agree it won't be at Brandon Creek's "exchange" (up to 4
> miles) but will it be at Littleport (the closest large exchange building
> - another 4 miles), at Ely (home to the dialling code - another 4
> miles), or Cambridge (biggest regional exchange - another 16 miles;
> total 28 miles)
>
> All those distances as the crow flies.

I read somewhere (though I can’t currently find the reference) that there
will be around 400 exchanges acting as headends for FTTP. That’s less than
a tenth of the current number of exchanges.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<nRe8yhkZWsciFAnE@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 19:27:37 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 4 May 2022 18:27 UTC

In message <t4uced$cb0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:17:01 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4t3pn$ike$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:43:19 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 3 May 2022 13:52:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t4r1c8$235$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:44 on Tue, 3 May 2022,
>>>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/05/2022 06:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <88u07h9td6o3eht3labdo4v7in8ah07565@4ax.com>, at 01:41:04
>>>>>>> on Tue, 3 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 11:18:14 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <klnt6h1enj9aivlr5m7ro3tosmlh3nuq21@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>20:27:12 on
>>>>>>>>> Sun, 1 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Telephone exchanges will usually be within a more populated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> area where restoration of the public electricity supply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be a higher (and often easier) than where the more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distant users are located.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's simply not the case. I have several times lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> villages where the telephone exchange is no less rural than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Station Road, Melbourn, for example; the station being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Those are "more populated areas" than e.g. outlying farms/houses
>>>>>>>>>>>> who (if the problem is only a prolonged failure of the public
>>>>>>>>>>>> electricity supply) should get their telephone service back at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as the villages.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. They probably haven't been actual exchanges (rather than remote
>>>>>>>>>>>> concentrators) for a long time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While I agree that many have been concentrators (which I mentioned
>>>>>>>>>>> earlier in a different subthread) for a while, they are still listed
>>>>>>>>>>> as discrete "Exchanges" (within the pool of ~5600 in the UK) and
>>>>>>>>>>> still need mains power to operate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Generally the same mains power (along with whatever backup has been
>>>>>>>>>> provided) as the surrounding villages they are located in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The concentrators (nevertheless listed as "exchanges") are in the
>>>>>>>>> individual villages. Each village will have its own power arrangements
>>>>>>>>> independently of the town/city where the upstream trunk exchange is
>>>>>>>>> situated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What's important here is that if the concentrator loses power in the
>>>>>>>>> village, it's not likely to have any higher priority than the rest of
>>>>>>>>> the village, and someone with a three week UPS at their home, still
>>>>>>>>> isn't going to be able to make calls.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is deviating from the earlier matter that an outlying POTS line
>>>>>>>> (otherwise unaffected by a line fault) will depend on the restoration
>>>>>>>> of power in the village not the likely to be more delayed restoration
>>>>>>>> of the mains supply at the remote place which it serves.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not deviating at all, when most of said POTS lines will be
>>>>>>> within the village and depending on the same power restoration
>>>>>>> as the "Exchange" in the High Street.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clearly it depends whether we're talking about a phone next door to the
>>>>>> exchange or a phone on Faraway Farm.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a typical village everything within approximately one square mile
>>>>> footprint will be "next door to the exchange".
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't help Farmer Faraway to have his own generator or UPS, if the
>>>>> village and its exchange are blacked out.
>>>>>
>>>> Quite, because the POTS service for both depends on the mains supply
>>>> in the village thus will be restored at the same time after a
>>>> prolonged power failure whether or not Farmer Giles has his mains
>>>> supply restored at the same rime as the village.
>>>
>>> So a passive fibre supply for Farmer Giles would be superior. If he can
>>> power his own equipment he can get service.
>>
>> Yes, as long as the building with the head end (and I'm not sure we are
>> much closer to understanding were that is) has power.
>>
>> Take my example of Brandon Creek (in southwest Norfolk). I think we
>> probably all agree it won't be at Brandon Creek's "exchange" (up to 4
>> miles) but will it be at Littleport (the closest large exchange building
>> - another 4 miles), at Ely (home to the dialling code - another 4
>> miles), or Cambridge (biggest regional exchange - another 16 miles;
>> total 28 miles)
>>
>> All those distances as the crow flies.
>
>I read somewhere (though I can’t currently find the reference) that there
>will be around 400 exchanges acting as headends for FTTP. That’s less than
>a tenth of the current number of exchanges.

That ratio for the areas I'm looking at would indicate head-ends at Ely
(and neither Littleport nor Cambridge).
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 23:54:49 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 4 May 2022 22:54 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 08:22:10 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <u0g37h11baihbcsk7ufs12ld6lkjrnjhpb@4ax.com>, at 00:56:20 on
>Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 3 May 2022 06:55:16 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t4m97g$bbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:33:04 on Sun, 1 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:00:35 +0100
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>In message <t4jn2k$vms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:11:00 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>Plenty of big companies had distributed systems around various
>>>>>>offices whether
>>>>>
>>>>>>it be file servers or databases.
>>>>>
>>>>>But not as a "cloud".
>>>>
>>>>I can't tell if you're being tongue in cheek or not. You do realise "cloud"
>>>>is just marketing BS for remote computers? An FTP server could be "cloud".
>>>>
>>>>>>There is that. Though with the EU making noises about data privacy
>>>>>>(as usual
>>>>>>techno illiterate beaurocrats making rules about backend technology
>>>>>>they don't
>>>>>
>>>>>>understand) things are becoming tricky in that realm.
>>>>>
>>>>>The sort of things they do understand are that if your data is held in a
>>>>>territory with very weak data protection regime, you are at risk.
>>>>
>>>>Then don't let a 3rd party store your critical data. Simple.
>>>>
>>>>>>Sorry, I don't buy that. Wires last for decades and when they fail
>>>>>>they cost
>>>>>>buttons to replace.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sadly not, the wires lace our streets and cost a fortune to replace.
>>>>
>>>>Less than replacing broken fibre I imagine since you can't just splice fibre
>>>>back together when it snaps.
>>>>
>>>>>Pretty much all faults these days can be attributed to dodgy wiring
>>>>>(whether that's aluminium ones corroding, joints getting water ingress,
>>>>>or simply being so fragile that they fall apart as soon as you look at
>>>>>them).
>>>>
>>>>Wow, how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being made out
>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>
>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>
>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>as your thumb.
>>>
>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>supply.
>
>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>including insulation and armouring.
>
>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>insulation about twice that).
>
>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>100th the current carrying capacity.
>
>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>
>*squared
>
I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
way.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 09:09:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 09:09 UTC

On Wed, 4 May 2022 13:13:02 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 04/05/2022 11:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Probably a bit of an ask for 1970s tech even if it was just going by area
>> size rather than shape as it would need to preprocess the entire image
>> before actual processing in real time 25 times a second. A Cray might have
>been
>> able to do it but not some analogue kit. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong!
>
>>
>
>The only tweak we had in the 70s was a relatively restricted adjustment
>of the clipping level. A classic example of the problem was, again on Dr
>Who, when the Doctor's assistant was played by Katy Manning. She was
>very blond and had been dressed in a yellow dress, gold tights, yellow
>shoes and gold make up. She stepped out of the TARDIS and vanished!

Given the programme it could have been part of the story line :)

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 10:54:21 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 5 May 2022 09:54 UTC

In message <hq067h9j7g1s4ubdlsrkp473sh2o14f96d@4ax.com>, at 23:54:49 on
Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:

>>>>>how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being
>>>>>made out
>>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>>
>>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>>
>>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>>as your thumb.
>>>>
>>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>>supply.
>>
>>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>>including insulation and armouring.
>>
>>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>>insulation about twice that).
>>
>>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>>100th the current carrying capacity.
>>
>>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,

The skinniest in general use is apparently 95mm*, but that's for all
three phases. So 133A per phase. The next two sizes up are 185mm* and
240mm*, which would be rated at approx 270A per phase and 340A.

>>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>>
>>*squared
>>
>I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
>way.

Is your house supplied with power overhead, from drop wires, or buried
cables? Once we've established that, I have some supplementary
questions.
--
Roland Perry

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