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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t50giq$6co$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29118&group=uk.railway#29118

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 13:39:53 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 5 May 2022 12:39 UTC

On 05/05/2022 10:09, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2022 13:13:02 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/05/2022 11:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Probably a bit of an ask for 1970s tech even if it was just going by area
>>> size rather than shape as it would need to preprocess the entire image
>>> before actual processing in real time 25 times a second. A Cray might have
>> been
>>> able to do it but not some analogue kit. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong!
>>
>>>
>>
>> The only tweak we had in the 70s was a relatively restricted adjustment
>> of the clipping level. A classic example of the problem was, again on Dr
>> Who, when the Doctor's assistant was played by Katy Manning. She was
>> very blond and had been dressed in a yellow dress, gold tights, yellow
>> shoes and gold make up. She stepped out of the TARDIS and vanished!
>
> Given the programme it could have been part of the story line :)
>

:-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<cht87hdvht86lfo9uui3b5k9ssumr47tds@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29124&group=uk.railway#29124

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 02:18:38 +0100
Lines: 52
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 by: Charles Ellson - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:18 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:54:21 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <hq067h9j7g1s4ubdlsrkp473sh2o14f96d@4ax.com>, at 23:54:49 on
>Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being
>>>>>>made out
>>>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>>>
>>>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>>>
>>>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>>>as your thumb.
>>>>>
>>>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>>>supply.
>>>
>>>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>>>including insulation and armouring.
>>>
>>>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>>>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>>>insulation about twice that).
>>>
>>>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>>>100th the current carrying capacity.
>>>
>>>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>>>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>>>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
>
>The skinniest in general use is apparently 95mm*, but that's for all
>three phases. So 133A per phase. The next two sizes up are 185mm* and
>240mm*, which would be rated at approx 270A per phase and 340A.
>
>>>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>>>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>>>
>>>*squared
>>>
>>I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
>>way.
>
>Is your house supplied with power overhead, from drop wires, or buried
>cables? Once we've established that, I have some supplementary
>questions.
>
Cable from c.1925, hence the lack of millimetres rather than square
inches. Current fusing 100A cartridge fuse.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<gAntmLV7LRdiFAf9@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29133&group=uk.railway#29133

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 13:22:19 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 60
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 12:22 UTC

In message <cht87hdvht86lfo9uui3b5k9ssumr47tds@4ax.com>, at 02:18:38 on
Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:54:21 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <hq067h9j7g1s4ubdlsrkp473sh2o14f96d@4ax.com>, at 23:54:49 on
>>Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being
>>>>>>>made out
>>>>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>>>>as your thumb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>>>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>>>>supply.
>>>>
>>>>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>>>>including insulation and armouring.
>>>>
>>>>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>>>>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>>>>insulation about twice that).
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>>>>100th the current carrying capacity.
>>>>
>>>>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>>>>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>>>>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
>>
>>The skinniest in general use is apparently 95mm*, but that's for all
>>three phases. So 133A per phase. The next two sizes up are 185mm* and
>>240mm*, which would be rated at approx 270A per phase and 340A.
>>
>>>>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>>>>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>>>>
>>>>*squared
>>>>
>>>I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
>>>way.
>>
>>Is your house supplied with power overhead, from drop wires, or buried
>>cables? Once we've established that, I have some supplementary
>>questions.
>>
>Cable from c.1925, hence the lack of millimetres rather than square
>inches. Current fusing 100A cartridge fuse.

Irrespective of the unit you are using to measure, your anecdata
strongly supports the idea that the cable into your house (and the
fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<zgSp+6VtURdiFA+A@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 13:31:41 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 12:31 UTC

In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>> "all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>> of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>> Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>
>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>> insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>> interview the line dies.
>>
>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>
>Ahem! All sorts of things might die. The effect is that the virtual line
>between the participants dies.

There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
explicitly in the past).

The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
(their word was of course 'line').

>>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>>
>>> A phone call costs money.....
>>
>> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
>> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
>> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
>> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
>> they won't turn a hair.
>
>Any large scale organisation will probably have phone contracts, both
>mobile and land line, with inclusive minutes.

I'm not that sure B2B landline contracts work like that, but it doesn't
really matter because it's peanuts anyway.

>The marginal cost of any single phone call will be zero.

I don't think anyone is seriously disputing that it's 'very low', but
there are often other logistical issues when using classic landlines.
Such as someone else in the family deciding to grab it just before the
radio station calls, and people wandering around the house with their
cordless phone and entering a room with a radio on, listening to that
very programme. Result equals: feedback loop :(

Obviously they tell people not to do that, but it's all extra stuff to
have to cope with.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<sAjummXrsRdiFA++@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 13:57:15 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 12:57 UTC

In message <t4t8fo$hi0$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:20 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
>> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
>> to launch their mass market products.
>>
>> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
>> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>>
>> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>>
>> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
>> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
>> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>>
>> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
>> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
>> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
>> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
>> end-point clients and servers.
>
>Yes, but no one referred to the Internet, or indeed other competing
>networks (DECnet, various X.25 networks, BITNET and so on) as “the cloud”
>even though they were often depicted as such in presentations and
>literature.

But they might well have referred to it as "a cloud". After all, what
other mechanism would the *Internet*Governance Forum in 2008 think was
providing the connectivity for the cloud computing they were discussing.

We have here a classic case of terminology used "in the trade", versus
"in the public consciousness" with a side order of marketing people
selling "cloud services".

Again, what, other than The Internet, was the cloud that was delivering
early cloud computing products like "Amazon Web Services"? I'd hazard a
guess it was The Internet (usual disclaimers apply about people who
can't tell the difference between the WWW and the Internet).

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29138&group=uk.railway#29138

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:32:56 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:32 UTC

On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>> available
>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>
>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>
>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>> line
>> between the participants dies.
>
> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
> explicitly in the past).
>
> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
> (their word was of course 'line').

In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
connected components despite the marketing name.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:40 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:32:56 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>>
>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>>> line
>>> between the participants dies.
>>
>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
>> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
>> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
>> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
>> explicitly in the past).
>>
>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
>> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
>> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
>> (their word was of course 'line').
>
>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
>connected components despite the marketing name.

Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t539b1$ksg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 13:54:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:54 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:32:56 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>>>> line
>>>> between the participants dies.
>>>
>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
>>> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
>>> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
>>> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
>>> explicitly in the past).
>>>
>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
>>> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
>>> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
>>> (their word was of course 'line').
>>
>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>
> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>

My guess is that dropouts are mainly due to poor domestic connections,
either congested link to the ISP or more often than not poorly
configured/setup domestic WiFi. I regularly use Webex and/or Teams for
teleconferencing across Europe and we very rarely suffer difficulties. The
major factor is that most participants are in significant work locations
with industrial strength network infrastructure. Those that do participate
from home seem to have properly configured domestic setups, but that’s
hardly surprising given their line of work.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t539h6$m8k$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29141&group=uk.railway#29141

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:57:57 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Certes - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:57 UTC

On 06/05/2022 14:32, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May
>>>> 2022,
>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>>
>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>>> line
>>> between the participants dies.
>>
>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>> very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>> lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back
>> on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite
>> as explicitly in the past).
>>
>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>> the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>> intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>> their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>
> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
> connected components despite the marketing name.

"Cloud" is quite literally a nebulous term, but it generally means a
network through which many lines can be established as and when needed.
It has other facets such as "cloud computing", i.e. doing sums on
someone else's computer. In that context, any line is incidental: just
a way to get questions into the "cloud" and answers out.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<lxw8aifkkSdiFAMV@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29142&group=uk.railway#29142

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:56 UTC

In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:32:56 +0100, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>>>> line
>>>> between the participants dies.
>>>
>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
>>> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
>>> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
>>> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
>>> explicitly in the past).
>>>
>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
>>> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
>>> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
>>> (their word was of course 'line').
>>
>>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
>>connected components despite the marketing name.
>
>Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?

Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
the same routers from one second to the next.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<rhe$+BfdiSdiFANz@perry.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29143&group=uk.railway#29143

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:54:37 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:54 UTC

In message <t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:56 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly
>>>>>>>Darlek, but dropouts where there's either silence, or so little
>>>>>>>bandwidth available one only receives every third word.
>>>>
>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the
>>>virtual line between the participants dies.

>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>>very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>>lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them
>>back on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe
>>quite as explicitly in the past).

>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>>the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>>intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>>their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>
>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>physically connected components despite the marketing name.

"Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the line", "its a
dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking back to
technology of the last century.

You may think I'm being over-fussy, but then perhaps you'll not mind me
calling the front carriage of an EMU "the locomotive" (like members of
the public have been heard to). Or refer to trains being run by Network
Rail (they might mean National Rail, but even that's not quite right).
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t53a9j$tbe$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29144&group=uk.railway#29144

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 14:11:01 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 87
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 by: Sam Wilson - Fri, 6 May 2022 14:11 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>> "all") is an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>> of the frequencies that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>> Different algos will have different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that it won't get any worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth available
>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>
>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>> insist on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>> interview the line dies.
>>>
>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>
>> Ahem! All sorts of things might die. The effect is that the virtual line
>> between the participants dies.
>
> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
> explicitly in the past).
>
> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
> (their word was of course 'line').

So you phrasing would be “a dodgy cloud”? Which one?

>>>>> Why can't they use a phone?
>>>>
>>>> A phone call costs money.....
>>>
>>> In my experience (and I've had dozens of such interviews - the clue is
>>> the phone ringing at 6am with a researcher asking 'are you available in
>>> half an hour') the cost of any such call would be met by the caller, viz
>>> the TV/radio station. And for them it's so far down in the noise level
>>> they won't turn a hair.
>>
>> Any large scale organisation will probably have phone contracts, both
>> mobile and land line, with inclusive minutes.
>
> I'm not that sure B2B landline contracts work like that, but it doesn't
> really matter because it's peanuts anyway.

IIUC (this was all handled by colleagues, not by me) the UoEdinburgh’s
phone connections worked like that - a certain number of simultaneous
connections from the PABX/VOIP setup to the public phone system - whether
on a dedicated cable, a SIP trunk or whatever - plus a certain number of
call minutes. I didn’t get the impression that it was any kind of special
deal.

>> The marginal cost of any single phone call will be zero.
>
> I don't think anyone is seriously disputing that it's 'very low', but
> there are often other logistical issues when using classic landlines.
> Such as someone else in the family deciding to grab it just before the
> radio station calls, and people wandering around the house with their
> cordless phone and entering a room with a radio on, listening to that
> very programme. Result equals: feedback loop :(
>
> Obviously they tell people not to do that, but it's all extra stuff to
> have to cope with.

Indeed. Cue children and pets crashing Zoom calls.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t53foa$lbk$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29146&group=uk.railway#29146

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:44:10 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Fri, 6 May 2022 15:44 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
>Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
>>>connected components despite the marketing name.
>>
>>Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>
>Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
>connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
>the same routers from one second to the next.

"Cloud" is nothing more than marketdroid terminology for the internet.
The latter sounds techy and scary, the former warm and fluffy and doesn't
scare off the dimwit techno illiterates in the boardroom.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29149&group=uk.railway#29149

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 17:15:18 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Fri, 6 May 2022 16:15 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 13:22:19 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <cht87hdvht86lfo9uui3b5k9ssumr47tds@4ax.com>, at 02:18:38 on
>Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:54:21 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <hq067h9j7g1s4ubdlsrkp473sh2o14f96d@4ax.com>, at 23:54:49 on
>>>Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being
>>>>>>>>made out
>>>>>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>>>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>>>>>as your thumb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>>>>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>>>>>supply.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>>>>>including insulation and armouring.
>>>>>
>>>>>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>>>>>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>>>>>insulation about twice that).
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>>>>>100th the current carrying capacity.
>>>>>
>>>>>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>>>>>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>>>>>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
>>>
>>>The skinniest in general use is apparently 95mm*, but that's for all
>>>three phases. So 133A per phase. The next two sizes up are 185mm* and
>>>240mm*, which would be rated at approx 270A per phase and 340A.
>>>
>>>>>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>>>>>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>>>>>
>>>>>*squared
>>>>>
>>>>I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
>>>>way.
>>>
>>>Is your house supplied with power overhead, from drop wires, or buried
>>>cables? Once we've established that, I have some supplementary
>>>questions.
>>>
>>Cable from c.1925, hence the lack of millimetres rather than square
>>inches. Current fusing 100A cartridge fuse.
>
>Irrespective of the unit you are using to measure, your anecdata
>strongly supports the idea that the cable into your house (and the
>fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>
Why wouldn't it be?

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<8gia7hhuamnp3vhs8sj1j3803kv35or8ms@4ax.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29152&group=uk.railway#29152

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 17:19:52 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Fri, 6 May 2022 16:19 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:54:37 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:56 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>>worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly
>>>>>>>>Darlek, but dropouts where there's either silence, or so little
>>>>>>>>bandwidth available one only receives every third word.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the
>>>>virtual line between the participants dies.
>
>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>>>very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>>>lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them
>>>back on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe
>>>quite as explicitly in the past).
>
>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>>>the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>>>intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>>>their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>>
>>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>physically connected components despite the marketing name.
>
>"Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
>used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the line", "its a
>dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking back to
>technology of the last century.
>
You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
<snip>

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t53icr$1uq$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29153&group=uk.railway#29153

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 16:29:15 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Fri, 6 May 2022 16:29 UTC

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:54:37 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:56 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly
>>>>>>>>> Darlek, but dropouts where there's either silence, or so little
>>>>>>>>> bandwidth available one only receives every third word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the
>>>>> virtual line between the participants dies.
>>
>>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>>>> very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>>>> lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them
>>>> back on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe
>>>> quite as explicitly in the past).
>>
>>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>>>> the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>>>> intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>>>> their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>>>
>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>> physically connected components despite the marketing name.
>>
>> "Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
>> used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the line", "its a
>> dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking back to
>> technology of the last century.
>>
> You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
> the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
> <snip>
>

No, but until recent times you got a circuit switched connection rather
than packet switched.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<9e7KhMlJXjdiFA95@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:03 UTC

In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 6 May 2022 13:22:19 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <cht87hdvht86lfo9uui3b5k9ssumr47tds@4ax.com>, at 02:18:38 on
>>Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 5 May 2022 10:54:21 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <hq067h9j7g1s4ubdlsrkp473sh2o14f96d@4ax.com>, at 23:54:49 on
>>>>Wed, 4 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>how do the electricity cables manage to last so long then being
>>>>>>>>>made out
>>>>>>>>>of fragile copper and aluminium too?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Phone wires are single-strand plastic insulated, typically 24 gauge -
>>>>>>>>that's 0.5mm diameter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Power cables under the street are multi-strand armoured, about as thick
>>>>>>>>as your thumb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The SWA cable feeding the shed at the end of my garden has to be
>>>>>>>thicker than that just for a 16A supply. The incoming feed is a 100A
>>>>>>>supply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm talking about each of the live conductors, not the assemblage
>>>>>>including insulation and armouring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>100A adjacent to domestic distribution boards is generally 25mm*, which
>>>>>>is the area not diameter, so about 6mm diameter of copper (plus
>>>>>>insulation about twice that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile the area of the phone wiring is about 0.2mm*, or less than
>>>>>>100th the current carrying capacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In terms of the electricity distribution network, there's a rule of
>>>>>>thumb (see what I did there) that they are 400A, irrespective of
>>>>>>voltage. So the stuff buried in the street is quite likely to be 100mm*,
>>>>
>>>>The skinniest in general use is apparently 95mm*, but that's for all
>>>>three phases. So 133A per phase. The next two sizes up are 185mm* and
>>>>240mm*, which would be rated at approx 270A per phase and 340A.
>>>>
>>>>>>or a diameter of 12mm per copper conductor, maybe 16mm with insulation.
>>>>>>With three of those and armouring making a total of a couple of inches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*squared
>>>>>>
>>>>>I doubt if there are many millimetres in the electric cables round my
>>>>>way.
>>>>
>>>>Is your house supplied with power overhead, from drop wires, or buried
>>>>cables? Once we've established that, I have some supplementary
>>>>questions.
>>>>
>>>Cable from c.1925, hence the lack of millimetres rather than square
>>>inches. Current fusing 100A cartridge fuse.
>>
>>Irrespective of the unit you are using to measure, your anecdata
>>strongly supports the idea that the cable into your house (and the
>>fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>
>Why wouldn't it be?

Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t55i5n$p35$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:37:43 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 7 May 2022 10:37 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>
>>Why wouldn't it be?
>
>Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.

Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
hands then get back to me about how weak it is.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t55kkq$2nb$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>>
>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>
>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>
> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.

And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<mYCsw6ttBndiFA$X@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:13:17 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:13 UTC

In message <t55kkq$2nb$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:19:54 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>
>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>
>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>
>And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.

And it's the multiple joints which are just as fragile.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<do2i8bu+CndiFAaH@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:14:38 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:14 UTC

In message <8gia7hhuamnp3vhs8sj1j3803kv35or8ms@4ax.com>, at 17:19:52 on
Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:54:37 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:56 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>>>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>>>worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly
>>>>>>>>>Darlek, but dropouts where there's either silence, or so little
>>>>>>>>>bandwidth available one only receives every third word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the
>>>>>virtual line between the participants dies.
>>
>>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>>>>very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>>>>lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them
>>>>back on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe
>>>>quite as explicitly in the past).
>>
>>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>>>>the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>>>>intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>>>>their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>>>
>>>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>>physically connected components despite the marketing name.
>>
>>"Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
>>used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the line", "its a
>>dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking back to
>>technology of the last century.
>>
>You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
>the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
><snip>

I wasn't aware that PSTN connections could change the copper they were
using, mid-call.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t565ec$2d3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:06:37 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:06 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t4t8fo$hi0$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:20 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> Historians have traced the term "Cloud Computing" back to 1996, but I
>>> didn't hear it much until perhaps 2005 when Google and Amazon were about
>>> to launch their mass market products.
>>>
>>> From a regulatory point of view (data protection issues and so on) it
>>> was still an "emerging issue" in 2009:
>>>
>>> <https://www.intgovforum.org/en/filedepot_download/3367/7>
>>>
>>> [I'm on the panel in a completely different topic on p273, although my
>>> immediate task was more to do with helping organise the wide range of
>>> workshops and convening suitable panellists]
>>>
>>> However, I'd been doing Powerpoint presentations about Internet
>>> connectivity since 1999, depicting the (if you like) BGP cloud where
>>> there be dragons, connecting, as if by magic, what people were primarily
>>> interested in at the time: various behaviours and misbehaviours of
>>> end-point clients and servers.
>>
>> Yes, but no one referred to the Internet, or indeed other competing
>> networks (DECnet, various X.25 networks, BITNET and so on) as “the cloud”
>> even though they were often depicted as such in presentations and
>> literature.
>
> But they might well have referred to it as "a cloud". After all, what
> other mechanism would the *Internet*Governance Forum in 2008 think was
> providing the connectivity for the cloud computing they were discussing.

I’ve scanned through about 50 of the 70 or so occurrences of “cloud” in
that document. So far they are all “cloud computing”, “cloud services” or
“data stored in “the cloud””. None of them refer to the cloud as the
network, in fact there is an explicit definition from Bruce Schneier:
“Cloud Computing: your information on someone else’s hard drives”.

> We have here a classic case of terminology used "in the trade", versus
> "in the public consciousness" with a side order of marketing people
> selling "cloud services".

But my point (and you’ve erased the context again) is that the term “the
cloud” was not used of the Internet or other networks, and still isn’t in
any specific sense by network people, until people started talking about
cloud services.

> Again, what, other than The Internet, was the cloud that was delivering
> early cloud computing products like "Amazon Web Services"? I'd hazard a
> guess it was The Internet (usual disclaimers apply about people who
> can't tell the difference between the WWW and the Internet).

It was the Internet. It still is. The cloud is sets of remote services,
most of which are accessed over the Internet, but the Internet is not the
cloud. Without those services there would be be no cloud except in
pictures.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t565vt$136s$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:15:57 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:15 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>
>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>
>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>
>And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.

Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or cabinet
safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken is if someone messes
about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
houses but I've never seen one break yet.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Sam Wilson - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:21 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t55kkq$2nb$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:19:54 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>
>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>
>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>
>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>
> And it's the multiple joints which are just as fragile.

Good point. Rip this apart with your bare hands
<https://telecomsystemsuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/telephone-wiring-page.jpg>
and then try again with this
<https://live.staticflickr.com/3929/15535219652_218d368a48.jpg>.

Sam

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t566eg$aje$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29185&group=uk.railway#29185

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:23:44 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:23 UTC

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at 17:15:18 on
>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than telephone wires.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>
>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>
>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with your bare
>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>
>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>
> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or cabinet
> safely tucked away. …

Well then it’s not going to get torn apart with anyone’s bare hands, is it?

> … The only time it'll get broken is if someone messes
> about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
> houses but I've never seen one break yet.

Ours did. The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.

Sam

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