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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

SubjectAuthor
* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
 `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
  +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
  |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
  | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
   `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
    `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
     `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
      `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
       `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
        `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeGraeme Wall
         |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeNY
         |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         | |+* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         | ||`- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         | |  `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |   `* Ticket question - reasonable routeTweed
         |    `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |     |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |     | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |     |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |     |   +- Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |     |   `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTweed
         |     |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeGraeme Wall
         |     `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |      `* Ticket question - reasonable routeColinR
         |       +- Ticket question - reasonable routeChristopher A. Lee
         |       +* Ticket question - reasonable routeJames Heaton
         |       |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         |       |  +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |+* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |       |  ||+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  ||`* Ticket question - reasonable routeMike Humphrey
         |       |  || +* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         |       |  || |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  || |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |       |  || | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  || `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |       |  | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |  `- Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |       |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeMike Humphrey
         |       |   `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |        `- Ticket question - reasonable routeSam Wilson
         +* Ticket question - reasonable routeNY
         |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | +* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         | |`- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
          `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry

Pages:123
Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<YilDO713$7ciFAyB@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 13:15:51 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 125
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 5 May 2022 12:15 UTC

In message <aKk*mHoNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:04:32 on Thu,
5 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>> 4 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Although it's always worth checking routes using the Cambridge-Liverpool
>> St service because the routing guide was changed perhaps five years
>> (about when they brought in dreadful new UI) to exclude it as part of a
>> longer journey, for some tickets, rather than being automatic.
>
>Unless there's a negative easement for that specific route, any ticket
>Cambridge to/from <somewhere else> that is routed 'London', or having
>'London' as one of the permitted routes in the routeing guide, will by
>definition be available from 'London' to/from Cambridge. And LST is
>definitely a permitted route for London<->Cambridge, so it becomes a valid
>route on the journey <somewhere else>-Cambridge.
>
>Can you point to such an easement?

Try the routing guide on Sheffield to London, which is valid via
Peterborough/Ely/Cambridge (as well as straight down the MML), but when
I last looked they'd changed it so that the Cambridge-London leg was
only valid to Kings Cross, not Liverpool St.

If you want to discuss this level of detail, I think you must try that
one out.

>> >Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>> >London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>> >Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>
>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>
>'Valid' in the sense of 'possible if the routeing guide has a route that
>allows you to go that way' and your ticket includes that route, rather than
>'valid in all circumstances'.

You mean it's [potentially] a stunningly generous loophole. Have you
tried buying a ticket for that route (or using the routing guide) to see
if it really exists?

>Southampton-Cambridge only has a route of 'London' so you can't go via
>Olympia even if you wanted to,

It is "Any Permitted". Why does that mean you MUST incorporate a London
Terminal in the route.

>while Southampton-Bedford does have a 'not London' route via the WLL
>and WCML.

But if you try to buy a Southampton-Bedford ticket via Olympia (and then
West Hampstead) you'll be offered the same £49 ticket as via Waterloo
and St Pancras.

later... can you show we where brfares.com has a Southampton-Bedford
'not London' ticket, I can't see it.

>But what you seemingly couldn't do is WLL-NLL-Thameslink as that's not
>covered by the WLL/WCML map, nor by 'London' as it doesn't touch a London
>Terminal.

Like this (which I just mystery-shopped) you mean:

Southampton Central 13:00 - Clapham Junction 14:11
South Western Railway train service to London Waterloo

wait for 10 mins

Clapham Junction 14:21 - West Hampstead 14:49
London Overground train service to Stratford (London)

West Hampstead - West Hampstead Thameslink
5 mins Walk

wait for 30 mins

West Hampstead Thameslink 15:29 - Bedford 16:23
Thameslink train service to Bedford

>> In my original example involving Southampton there isn't a "Not via
>> London" option available, it's simply the case that the more scenic
>> routes do not include going as far north as Birmingham. I was wanting to
>> do that to get better, less crowded, trains with on-board catering, but
>> I'd have needed to get two tickets.
>
>I suppose it's possible XC could sell a Southampton to Cambridge 'route
>Birmingham' ticket, which isn't a Permitted Route so you couldn't use an Any
>Permitted ticket but you could use this special ticket.

Maybe they *could* (I'm not sure they have that kind of unilateral
freedom), but they *don't*. They'd just suggest the traveller bought
tickets split somewhere like Birmingham where you'd change trains.
Although of course there might be a cheaper place to split.

>I'm not aware of any circumstances where Any Permitted doesn't cover
>routes you might be able to do with route-specific tickets, but maybe
>such examples do exist.

I'm more intrigued by this novel concept of yours of route-specific
tickets which take you outside "Any Permitted" territory. Route-specific
(eg "via Chesterfield) are normally to stop you going on more obvious
and direct routes - in this case London-Manchester though Sheffield,
rather than Crewe)

>> >An Any Permitted ticket would allow both, a 'Route London' ticket only
>> >via Waterloo/etc, and a 'not London' only via the WLL.
>>
>> If there are both flavours of ticket on offer.
>
>Indeed. There is no guarantee that any particular flow will have 'route X'
>or 'not Y' tickets actually for sale. Many routes just have Any Permitted.

I think they are usually only offered where there's a choice (for want
of a better expression) of InterCity lines versus Regional ones. Hence
all the cheaper options for not doing the obvious but expensive thing of
using London as a hub, and pootling around on slower and less direct
trains.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<aFKz3Y2JF8ciFABB@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 13:21:29 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 5 May 2022 12:21 UTC

In message <t50ed9$ku4$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:02:49 on Thu, 5 May 2022,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 05/05/2022 11:04, Theo wrote:
>> I suppose it's possible XC could sell a Southampton to Cambridge 'route
>> Birmingham' ticket, which isn't a Permitted Route so you couldn't use an Any
>> Permitted ticket but you could use this special ticket. I'm not aware of
>> any circumstances where Any Permitted doesn't cover routes you might be able
>> to do with route-specific tickets, but maybe such examples do exist.
>
>HS1 is the obvious case,

An interesting one, because it's termed "Plus HS1", which is really a
TOC-specific ticket, not a route-specific ticket. Because normally a
direct train (eg StP-Ashford International) would always be valid on an
"Any Permitted".

And that's normally a loophole for bashers to do say Peterborough to
London via Ipswich and Colchester to Liverpool St (in the days when that
did have a direct, if slow, train).

>and Heathrow Express has been excluded too,

That's another TOC, not route. Whatever Heathrow Connect is called this
week was always cheaper.

>but I'd also be interested to hear of any cases on NR rails.

--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<Ali1$O3rK8ciFAhe@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 13:27:23 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 5 May 2022 12:27 UTC

In message <t50f0t$qdl$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:13:16 on Thu, 5 May 2022,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 05/05/2022 09:39, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t4uqi4$pgt$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:17:49 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message news:Ugug+5jaTsciFA
>>> DL@perry.uk...
>>>
>>>> If your ticket says "Not via London", it's impossible to travel,
>>>> erm, via London, and you have to pick another route (but still an
>>>> allowable one).
>>>
>>> Does "not via London" mean terminus stations, or does it also include
>>> any interchange station *near* to a terminal (for some definition of
>>> "near)?
>> You'd think they could find a way to explain that in this rather too
>> long web page:
>>
>><https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-
>> london.aspx>
>> But it doesn't leap out.
>> My interpretation would be OK as long as you didn't travel through a
>> London Terminal; but note there's four stations on that page which while
>> *not* London Terminals, are "considered to be for ticketing purposes".
>> How confusing is that for the uninitiated?
>> What I think they are getting at is they are members of yet another
>>club
>> called "London Group".
>>
>>> In other words, could you get a train on the MML, the WCML, the ECML
>>> etc that stopped at a station that interchanged with the North London
>>> Line, and use that to skirt round the centre and continue by another
>>> line that interchanged with the NLL. Likewise for interchange at
>>> Clapham Junction.
>> The quickest way to find that out is do a mystery shop at a
>>ticketing
>> site.
>
>London Terminals is a specific list and doesn't correspond exactly to
>London termini (i.e. places where trains reverse).

Indeed, the perils of picking words with a number of meanings.

>As the Travelling to
>London page points out, four London Terminals are through stations.

>London Bridge and Blackfriars also have plenty of through trains, as
>did Kings Cross at one point. Paddington and Liverpool Street should
>also become through "Terminals" soon.
>
>The problem with routes like Midlands to Cambridge via the NLL
>isn't the proximity to London. It's either the absence of the local
>London lines from relevant Routing Guide maps, or the fact that the
>fare to an intermediate station would exceed the fare being paid.

Ah yes, the "Fares Rule", perhaps the most impenetrable of the lot.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<dKk*tZqNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: 05 May 2022 21:27:59 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 204
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Thu, 5 May 2022 20:27 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <aKk*mHoNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:04:32 on Thu,
> 5 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
> >> >Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Although it's always worth checking routes using the Cambridge-Liverpool
> >> St service because the routing guide was changed perhaps five years
> >> (about when they brought in dreadful new UI) to exclude it as part of a
> >> longer journey, for some tickets, rather than being automatic.
> >
> >Unless there's a negative easement for that specific route, any ticket
> >Cambridge to/from <somewhere else> that is routed 'London', or having
> >'London' as one of the permitted routes in the routeing guide, will by
> >definition be available from 'London' to/from Cambridge. And LST is
> >definitely a permitted route for London<->Cambridge, so it becomes a valid
> >route on the journey <somewhere else>-Cambridge.
> >
> >Can you point to such an easement?
>
> Try the routing guide on Sheffield to London, which is valid via
> Peterborough/Ely/Cambridge (as well as straight down the MML), but when
> I last looked they'd changed it so that the Cambridge-London leg was
> only valid to Kings Cross, not Liverpool St.
>
> If you want to discuss this level of detail, I think you must try that
> one out.

If Sheffield to Cambridge ticket has a permitted route of LONDON, the
routing rules mean it's valid via Liverpool St. If Sheffield to Cambridge
ticket does not have LONDON as a routing point but is simply on a
combination of mapped routes (eg Sheffield-St Pancras-Cambridge) then you
can't go via LST.

Looking it up, the permitted routes are:
Sheffield Cambridge: AM MS+EE MS+EE+KE
which suggests there are no routes via London at all - you have to go via
Peterborough.

> >> >Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
> >> >London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
> >> >Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
> >>
> >> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
> >> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
> >> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
> >> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
> >> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
> >
> >'Valid' in the sense of 'possible if the routeing guide has a route that
> >allows you to go that way' and your ticket includes that route, rather than
> >'valid in all circumstances'.
>
> You mean it's [potentially] a stunningly generous loophole. Have you
> tried buying a ticket for that route (or using the routing guide) to see
> if it really exists?

No, I'm saying you have to align two things:

1. A permitted route, ie the routing guide listing a combination of maps that
takes you the way you want to go
2. A ticket routed along that permitted route. Most commonly that would be an
'any permitted' ticket, but other options exist

> >Southampton-Cambridge only has a route of 'London' so you can't go via
> >Olympia even if you wanted to,
>
> It is "Any Permitted". Why does that mean you MUST incorporate a London
> Terminal in the route.

Two different things, as above:

1. The routing guide says the permitted routes are:
Southampton Cambridge: LONDON

2. The type of ticket held, which in this case can be 'Any Permitted' or
'SWR & Connection'.

The permitted route of LONDON is equivalent to the permitted routes as
follows:

Southampton Group London Group: CW+LB CW+LF CW+PD PD SW XR+RG XR+WX
London Group Cambridge: KE WA

A 'SWR & Connection' ticket is going to knock out some of the routes from
the Southampton Group to London Group parts, eg via London Bridge. (and
it's an advance ticket so you don't have free choice anyway)

So, in the absence of any other routes an 'Any Permitted' ticket has to go
via London Group, which is:

LONDON GROUP:
City Thameslink
London Blackfriars
London Bridge
London Cannon Street
London Charing Cross
London Euston
London Fenchurch Street
London Kings Cross
London Liverpool Street
London Marylebone
London Paddington
London St Pancras
London Victoria
London Waterloo
London Waterloo East
Moorgate.
Old Street.
Vauxhall

which is the same list as London Terminals.

> >while Southampton-Bedford does have a 'not London' route via the WLL
> >and WCML.
>
> But if you try to buy a Southampton-Bedford ticket via Olympia (and then
> West Hampstead) you'll be offered the same £49 ticket as via Waterloo
> and St Pancras.
>
> later... can you show we where brfares.com has a Southampton-Bedford
> 'not London' ticket, I can't see it.

It has a *route* not via London. I didn't say it had a ticket.
Specifically:

Southampton Group Bedford: LONDON LP+EN PD+EN SW+EN

and maps LP, PD or SW will take you from Southampton to Clapham Junction
various ways using SWR, and then EN will take you
Clapham-Olympia-Willesden-Bletchley-Bedford.

Again Southampton to Bedford has a ticket routed Any Permitted and a ticket
routed SWR & Connection. So if you bought the Any Permitted you could go
via Olympia, which you couldn't do on the Cambridge ticket.

None of the combinations with map EN will take you via Thameslink, so
you would need to use the LONDON routing, which is:

Southampton Group London Group: CW+LB CW+LF CW+PD PD SW XR+RG XR+WX
London Group Bedford LM MI TK

which does not cover the NLL. It *does* cover Thameslink through central
London, which means travelling through a station in London Group (eg London
Bridge).

So an Any Permitted ticket you be valid into Waterloo/Victoria/etc and out
of St Pancras, or into London Bridge and through via Thameslink, or via
Olympia and Bletchley, but not via the NLL.

> >But what you seemingly couldn't do is WLL-NLL-Thameslink as that's not
> >covered by the WLL/WCML map, nor by 'London' as it doesn't touch a London
> >Terminal.
>
> Like this (which I just mystery-shopped) you mean:
>
> Southampton Central 13:00 - Clapham Junction 14:11
> South Western Railway train service to London Waterloo
>
> wait for 10 mins
>
> Clapham Junction 14:21 - West Hampstead 14:49
> London Overground train service to Stratford (London)
>
> West Hampstead - West Hampstead Thameslink
> 5 mins Walk
>
> wait for 30 mins
>
> West Hampstead Thameslink 15:29 - Bedford 16:23
> Thameslink train service to Bedford

I'm not seeing how that can be a valid route, although I didn't check the
easements. What ticket did it offer for that? Did it require two tickets?

> I'm more intrigued by this novel concept of yours of route-specific
> tickets which take you outside "Any Permitted" territory. Route-specific
> (eg "via Chesterfield) are normally to stop you going on more obvious
> and direct routes - in this case London-Manchester though Sheffield,
> rather than Crewe)

I'm not saying they exist, that was a question rather than a statement.
However I don't see why somebody like XC couldn't offer them, especially on
an AP basis. AIUI the permitted routes are set by the TOCs that
own the flows, so perhaps XC could decide they want a piece of the action.

> >Indeed. There is no guarantee that any particular flow will have 'route X'
> >or 'not Y' tickets actually for sale. Many routes just have Any Permitted.
>
> I think they are usually only offered where there's a choice (for want
> of a better expression) of InterCity lines versus Regional ones. Hence
> all the cheaper options for not doing the obvious but expensive thing of
> using London as a hub, and pootling around on slower and less direct
> trains.

Not only that. For example, on Southampton to London there are 'Any
Permitted' and 'Three Bridges' fares. Arguably SWR is no more 'intercity'
than Southern, but Southern want to attract people to their quieter less
direct trains with a cheaper fare.

(a 'Southern trains only' fare would be less attractive, because you
couldn't take SWR to Fratton and change to a Southern there)

Theo
(I apologise for getting deep into the routeing guide weeds here)

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 07:17:21 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Fri, 6 May 2022 06:17 UTC

In message <dKk*tZqNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:27:59 on Thu,
5 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <aKk*mHoNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:04:32 on Thu,
>> 5 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >> >Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Although it's always worth checking routes using the Cambridge-Liverpool
>> >> St service because the routing guide was changed perhaps five years
>> >> (about when they brought in dreadful new UI) to exclude it as part of a
>> >> longer journey, for some tickets, rather than being automatic.
>> >
>> >Unless there's a negative easement for that specific route, any ticket
>> >Cambridge to/from <somewhere else> that is routed 'London', or having
>> >'London' as one of the permitted routes in the routeing guide, will by
>> >definition be available from 'London' to/from Cambridge. And LST is
>> >definitely a permitted route for London<->Cambridge, so it becomes a valid
>> >route on the journey <somewhere else>-Cambridge.
>> >
>> >Can you point to such an easement?
>>
>> Try the routing guide on Sheffield to London, which is valid via
>> Peterborough/Ely/Cambridge (as well as straight down the MML), but when
>> I last looked they'd changed it so that the Cambridge-London leg was
>> only valid to Kings Cross, not Liverpool St.
>>
>> If you want to discuss this level of detail, I think you must try that
>> one out.
>
>If Sheffield to Cambridge ticket has a permitted route of LONDON, the
>routing rules mean it's valid via Liverpool St. If Sheffield to Cambridge
>ticket does not have LONDON as a routing point but is simply on a
>combination of mapped routes (eg Sheffield-St Pancras-Cambridge) then you
>can't go via LST.
>
>Looking it up, the permitted routes are:
> Sheffield Cambridge: AM MS+EE MS+EE+KE
>which suggests there are no routes via London at all - you have to go via
>Peterborough.

We are at cross purposes, the journey I'm looking for isn't Sheffield to
Cambridge via London, but Sheffield to London on a route which includes
Cambridge. And whether one can continue from Cambridge to either of
Kings Cross or Liverpool St.

Incidentally, the two tickets available SHF-CBG are "Not Via London" and
"Via Ely". With a surprising difference in price (one is twice the
other). Given that we agree the only metals are via Peterborough, then
the more expensive ticket can only involve reversing at Stevenage (it
doesn't infringe the doubling back rule as it's group with Hitchin), or
indeed a change at Peterborough and a reversal at Hitchin. That fairly
small difference in routing (rather than going via Ely, triggers a huge
price rise! Especially as you are allowed to use the MML from Sheffield
to Leicester, or the ECML from Doncaster to Peterborough, on the cheaper
ticket (rather than chugging along on a regional train via Nottingham
and Grantham).

>> >> >Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>> >> >London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>> >> >Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>> >>
>> >> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>> >> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>> >> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>> >> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>> >> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>> >
>> >'Valid' in the sense of 'possible if the routeing guide has a route that
>> >allows you to go that way' and your ticket includes that route, rather than
>> >'valid in all circumstances'.
>>
>> You mean it's [potentially] a stunningly generous loophole. Have you
>> tried buying a ticket for that route (or using the routing guide) to see
>> if it really exists?
>
>No, I'm saying you have to align two things:
>
>1. A permitted route, ie the routing guide listing a combination of maps that
>takes you the way you want to go
>2. A ticket routed along that permitted route. Most commonly that would be an
>'any permitted' ticket, but other options exist

But it *would* be a stunningly generous loophole, if it existed (have
you checked), see the considerable uplift above just for the pleasure of
using the ECML to Stevenage.

>> >Southampton-Cambridge only has a route of 'London' so you can't go via
>> >Olympia even if you wanted to,
>>
>> It is "Any Permitted". Why does that mean you MUST incorporate a London
>> Terminal in the route.
>
>Two different things, as above:
>
>1. The routing guide says the permitted routes are:
> Southampton Cambridge: LONDON
>
>2. The type of ticket held, which in this case can be 'Any Permitted' or
>'SWR & Connection'.
>
>The permitted route of LONDON is equivalent to the permitted routes as
>follows:
>
> Southampton Group London Group: CW+LB CW+LF CW+PD PD SW XR+RG XR+WX
> London Group Cambridge: KE WA
>
>A 'SWR & Connection' ticket is going to knock out some of the routes from
>the Southampton Group to London Group parts, eg via London Bridge. (and
>it's an advance ticket so you don't have free choice anyway)

Indeed, and there's a school of thought with says that even if every leg
does nail down a specific train, you should use the "and connections"
routing given to you in the itinerary [just not at a specific time].
Although I don't actually think the rules say that.

>So, in the absence of any other routes an 'Any Permitted' ticket has to go
>via London Group, which is:
>
>LONDON GROUP:
>City Thameslink
>London Blackfriars
>London Bridge
>London Cannon Street
>London Charing Cross
>London Euston
>London Fenchurch Street
>London Kings Cross
>London Liverpool Street
>London Marylebone
>London Paddington
>London St Pancras
>London Victoria
>London Waterloo
>London Waterloo East
>Moorgate.
>Old Street.
>Vauxhall
>
>which is the same list as London Terminals.

Apart from the fact that you *are* allowed (by mystery purchase) to go
via Olympia.

Southampton Central 12:00 - Clapham Junction 13:11
South Western Railway train service to London Waterloo

Clapham Junction 13:22 - Highbury & Islington 14:09
London Overground train service to Stratford (London)

Highbury & Islington 14:18 - Finsbury Park 4:23
Great Northern train service to Stevenage

Finsbury Park 14:42 - Cambridge 15:40
Thameslink train service to Cambridge

>> >while Southampton-Bedford does have a 'not London' route via the WLL
>> >and WCML.
>>
>> But if you try to buy a Southampton-Bedford ticket via Olympia (and then
>> West Hampstead) you'll be offered the same £49 ticket as via Waterloo
>> and St Pancras.
>>
>> later... can you show we where brfares.com has a Southampton-Bedford
>> 'not London' ticket, I can't see it.
>
>It has a *route* not via London. I didn't say it had a ticket.

That's a whole new can of worms! A route that's valid, but an Any
Permitted ticket that's mysteriously not valid on the route?

>Specifically:
>
>Southampton Group Bedford: LONDON LP+EN PD+EN SW+EN
>
>and maps LP, PD or SW will take you from Southampton to Clapham Junction
>various ways using SWR, and then EN will take you
>Clapham-Olympia-Willesden-Bletchley-Bedford.
>
>Again Southampton to Bedford has a ticket routed Any Permitted and a ticket
>routed SWR & Connection. So if you bought the Any Permitted you could go
>via Olympia, which you couldn't do on the Cambridge ticket.

See itinerary above. [SDS £62.90]

>None of the combinations with map EN will take you via Thameslink, so
>you would need to use the LONDON routing, which is:
>
> Southampton Group London Group: CW+LB CW+LF CW+PD PD SW XR+RG XR+WX
> London Group Bedford LM MI TK
>
>which does not cover the NLL. It *does* cover Thameslink through central
>London, which means travelling through a station in London Group (eg London
>Bridge).
>
>So an Any Permitted ticket you be valid into Waterloo/Victoria/etc and out
>of St Pancras, or into London Bridge and through via Thameslink, or via
>Olympia and Bletchley, but not via the NLL.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: use...@rilynn.me.uk (Roger Lynn)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 09:55:20 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Roger Lynn - Sat, 7 May 2022 08:55 UTC

On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>
> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.

Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would presumably
get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from Nottingham, and
onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West Hampstead. However I am
more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices for any Intercity
train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a similar situation applies on
the MML.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 12:05:51 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 41
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:05 UTC

In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.

>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>
>Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>Hampstead.

Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).

>However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>similar situation applies on the MML.

If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.

That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.

[1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
train.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 11:35:42 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:35 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>
>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>
>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>> Hampstead.
>
> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>
>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>
> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>
> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>
> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
> train.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_may_2022_web.pdf

In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now. If you are
travelling south and want any of the stations between Kettering and St
Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto the Connect service.
For us north of Kettering it does have the advantage that it keeps a bunch
of commuters off the trains that used to clog them up in the evening out of
St Pancras. But it does make getting to Luton airport more inconvenient.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<vITukatoAndiFAfy@perry.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29172&group=uk.railway#29172

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <vITukatoAndiFAfy@perry.uk>
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:12 UTC

In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>
>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>
>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>> Hampstead.
>>
>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>>
>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>
>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>
>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>
>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>> train.
>
>https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>may_2022_web.pdf
>
>In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.

And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.

>If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.

My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
as a way to commute to London.

What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?

(Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
Peterborough).

>But it does make getting to Luton airport more inconvenient.

My wife was seriously considering a job in Luton when we lived in
Nottingham, but the skeleton through train service made it impossible.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<0etc7h5aq166avt2a7fhhvbft3bfioirh1@4ax.com>

 copy mid

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Message-ID: <0etc7h5aq166avt2a7fhhvbft3bfioirh1@4ax.com>
References: <t4sv1k$mtg$1@dont-email.me> <cfe47hp8dauv4pr9ojuspnafit85reafqp@4ax.com> <fjeS+RKaClciFAzT@perry.uk> <jvn47hpg2pi1gap90412rlrp7p6o39j0ad@4ax.com> <1HwYX2RgRnciFA1i@perry.uk> <22657hhh3infqlq3e4irq2n5neghsoakmo@4ax.com> <Ugug+5jaTsciFADL@perry.uk> <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uxC+6uwqc5ciFA0D@perry.uk> <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk> <66KL4ksPKldiFA+6@perry.uk> <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me> <vITukatoAndiFAfy@perry.uk>
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Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 14:38:14 +0100
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:38 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>>
>>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>>
>>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>>> Hampstead.
>>>
>>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>>>
>>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>>
>>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>>
>>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>>
>>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
>>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>>> train.
>>
>>https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>>d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>>may_2022_web.pdf
>>
>>In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.
>
>And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.
>
>>If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>
>My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>as a way to commute to London.
>
>What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>
>(Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
> Peterborough).

Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is planning to reduce the services to intermediate
stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<mvBcNCwifndiFA8F@perry.uk>

 copy mid

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:45:06 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <mvBcNCwifndiFA8F@perry.uk>
References: <t4sv1k$mtg$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:45 UTC

In message <0etc7h5aq166avt2a7fhhvbft3bfioirh1@4ax.com>, at 14:38:14 on
Sat, 7 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>>>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>>>
>>>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>>>> Hampstead.
>>>>
>>>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>>>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>>>>
>>>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>>>
>>>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>>>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>>>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>>>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>>>
>>>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>>>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
>>>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>>>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>>>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>>>> train.
>>>
>>>https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>>>d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>>>may_2022_web.pdf
>>>
>>>In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.
>>
>>And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.
>>
>>>If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>
>>My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>as a way to commute to London.
>>
>>What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>>
>>(Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>> Peterborough).
>
>Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to
>speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
>partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is
>planning to reduce the services to intermediate
>stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.

From memory, only every other one of the Leeds services stops at
Peterborough anyway. (It alternates between Grantham and Peterborough)

Apparently, people who live in Leeds only want to go to London (that's
not true, by the way).
--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t55um3$di0$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:11:15 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <t55um3$di0$1@dont-email.me>
References: <6qn27h1mq4ft55n6urgr60qct6alcctat4@4ax.com>
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 by: Tweed - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:11 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>>
>>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>>
>>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>>> Hampstead.
>>>
>>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>>>
>>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>>
>>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>>
>>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>>
>>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
>>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>>> train.
>>
>> https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>> d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>> may_2022_web.pdf
>>
>> In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.
>
> And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.
>
>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>
> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
> as a way to commute to London.
>
The Corby trains from Bedford to StP only take 42 minutes. Compare with
Victoria to Brighton which is just over an hour and a shorter distance.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t55vod$l6i$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:29:33 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:29 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>
>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>
> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
> as a way to commute to London.
>
>

6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:01:04 +0100
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 by: ColinR - Sat, 7 May 2022 15:01 UTC

On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>
>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>
>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>> as a way to commute to London.
>>
>>
>
> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
station and then reverse back in??

Sorry! ;-)

--
Colin

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: c.l...@fairpoint.net (Christopher A. Lee)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 10:14:18 -0500
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 by: Christopher A. Lee - Sat, 7 May 2022 15:14 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 16:01:04 +0100, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>
>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
>Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>station and then reverse back in??
>
>Sorry! ;-)

Umpteen years ago, I caught a Calder Valley DMU at Leeds, which
departed from a bay platform at the East end of the station, It set
off in that direction for a short distance, then the driver switched
to the other end and we drove off West.

The porter on or whatever on that platform was clearly annoyed with
telling passengers querying it, "But are you sure? that's the York
direction".

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: use...@rilynn.me.uk (Roger Lynn)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:49:46 +0100
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 by: Roger Lynn - Sat, 7 May 2022 15:49 UTC

On 07/05/2022 14:38, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>
>>My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>as a way to commute to London.
>>
>>What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>>
>>(Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>> Peterborough).
>
> Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
> partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is planning to reduce the services to intermediate
> stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.

The obvious stations to drop (if they haven't already) would be Retford,
Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. It would be preferable just to add an
additional fast train, which I'm sure has been proposed many times in the
past. Journeys from the East Midlands stations (and connections from
Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire) are already often difficult because of the
lack of connections at Doncaster, particularly to Edinburgh.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:26:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:26 UTC

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 14:38, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>
>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>
>>> What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>>>
>>> (Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>>> Peterborough).
>>
>> Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to
>> speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
>> partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is
>> planning to reduce the services to intermediate
>> stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.
>
> The obvious stations to drop (if they haven't already) would be Retford,
> Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. It would be preferable just to add an
> additional fast train, which I'm sure has been proposed many times in the
> past. Journeys from the East Midlands stations (and connections from
> Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire) are already often difficult because of the
> lack of connections at Doncaster, particularly to Edinburgh.
>

I can't see any KGX-LDS trains with fewer than three intermediate stops
(PBO, DON, WKF). In contrast, York gets some non-stop London services.

I think the proposal is to speed up some of the Leeds services by dropping
one or more of those three stops, along with increasing the line speed when
and where the new ETCS signalling permits. So Leeds will get some faster
London service at the expense of worse service and connectivity at the
intermediate stations.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 17:38:02 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:38 UTC

In message <t55um3$di0$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:11:15 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>>>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34 on Wed,
>>>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't touch a
>>>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'. So via Clapham Junction, Kensington
>>>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London' ticket.
>>>>
>>>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid avoiding
>>>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less than
>>>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>>>> Hampstead.
>>>>
>>>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>>>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the airport).
>>>>
>>>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>>>
>>>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>>>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>>>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>>>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>>>
>>>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>>>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's only
>>>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>>>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>>>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>>>> train.
>>>
>>> https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>>> d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>>> may_2022_web.pdf
>>>
>>> In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.
>>
>> And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.
>>
>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>
>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>> as a way to commute to London.
>>
>The Corby trains from Bedford to StP only take 42 minutes.

True. Maybe that compensates for the difficulty of anyone in the East
Midlands wanting to commute to Bedford/Luton (or even West Hampstead).

>Compare with
>Victoria to Brighton which is just over an hour and a shorter distance.

Grantham to Kings Cross is only an hour. The Brighton line is a bit
slow, even though the fastest trains have only one stop.

--
Roland Perry

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 18:00:03 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sat, 7 May 2022 17:00 UTC

On 07/05/2022 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t55um3$di0$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:11:15 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 09:55:20 on Sat, 7
>>>>> May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 05/05/2022 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 20:46:34
>>>>>>> on Wed,
>>>>>>>> Confusingly, routes which go through the London area but don't
>>>>>>>> touch a
>>>>>>>> London Terminal aren't 'London'.  So via Clapham Junction,
>>>>>>>> Kensington
>>>>>>>> Olympia or the North London Line are valid on a 'not London'
>>>>>>>> ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we'd need to spend a while confirming
>>>>>>> Nottingham-West_Hampstead-Stratford-Cambridge would be a valid
>>>>>>> avoiding
>>>>>>> route. It seems unlikely given the "Not via London" fare is less
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> half the "Any Permitted", and all the jaunt along the NLL does is
>>>>>>> abstract a few miles from the total journey distance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ignoring the question of whether this is a valid route, it would
>>>>>> presumably get you off the expensive Intercity train into London from
>>>>>> Nottingham, and onto a cheaper (sub)urban train that stops at West
>>>>>> Hampstead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although the journey opportunities for such a change at Bedford have
>>>>> shrunk[1], and there {was?} only 1tph that stops at Luton (the
>>>>> airport).
>>>>>
>>>>>> However I am more familiar with the ECML with its extortionate prices
>>>>>> for any Intercity train south of Peterborough and I am assuming a
>>>>>> similar situation applies on the MML.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anything it's the other way round on the MML. It always saved money
>>>>> to split tickets at places like Market Harborough or Kettering, which
>>>>> suggests the pricing was skewed in favour of the more southerly
>>>>> passengers, with the long-haul being price-gouged.
>>>>>
>>>>> That also showed up in the way that tickets via Grantham (so a
>>>>> significant stretch of ECML) noticeably cheaper.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Later, although I can hardly believe my eyes, RTT says there's
>>>>> only
>>>>> one train a day stopping at Bedford, and two at day at Luton
>>>>> Airport. What on earth is going on? Apparently you now have to
>>>>> change at Kettering (onto a Corby service, then again onto a local
>>>>> train.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/downloa
>>>>
>>>> d_ct/20220413/nMr3fhS-lxfvV5gZv0WdmdgMiypkzOxxp3rR9QHbzqw/emr_route_map_
>>>>
>>>> may_2022_web.pdf
>>>>
>>>> In summary EMR express trains run fast south of Kettering now.
>>>
>>> And everything south of there St Alban-ised. The rot continues.
>>>
>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>
>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>
>> The Corby trains from Bedford to StP only take 42 minutes.
>
> True. Maybe that compensates for the difficulty of anyone in the East
> Midlands wanting to commute to Bedford/Luton (or even West Hampstead).
>
>> Compare with
>> Victoria to Brighton which is just over an hour and a shorter distance.
>
> Grantham to Kings Cross is only an hour. The Brighton line is a bit
> slow, even though the fastest trains have only one stop.
>

Brighton line isn't slow, I've seen it done in 4 minutes!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t56it1$me1$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: heatonan...@gmail.com.invalid (James Heaton)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 20:56:08 +0100
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 by: James Heaton - Sat, 7 May 2022 19:56 UTC

"ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...

On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>
>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>
>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>> as a way to commute to London.
>>
>>
>
> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

>Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
?station and then reverse back in??

ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.

Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
platform - then off to the Far North.

It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
withdrawn.

James

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 20:10:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Sat, 7 May 2022 20:10 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>
>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>
>
>
> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
> station and then reverse back in??
>
> Sorry! ;-)
>

It calls at one Luton, then stops at another Luton shortly afterwards ;) :P

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 21:22:15 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 7 May 2022 21:22 UTC

James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>
>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
> ?station and then reverse back in??
>
>
> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>
> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
> platform - then off to the Far North.

I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.

>
> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
> withdrawn.

Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t56od5$pk7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 21:30:13 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Sat, 7 May 2022 21:30 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>
>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>> station and then reverse back in??
>>
>> Sorry! ;-)
>>
>
> It calls at one Luton, then stops at another Luton shortly afterwards ;) :P

Surely one Luton is enough?

(Except under a certain bridge in Ely, of course.)

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t56ss3$qv4$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29196&group=uk.railway#29196

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 23:46:26 +0100
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 by: Certes - Sat, 7 May 2022 22:46 UTC

On 07/05/2022 22:22, Recliner wrote:
> James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>
>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>> ?station and then reverse back in??
>>
>>
>> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>>
>> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
>> platform - then off to the Far North.
>
> I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
> platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
> long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
> outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.
>
>>
>> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
>> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
>> withdrawn.
>
> Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.
>
Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
<https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>

I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
It ran once a day until quite recently. These two unadvertised workings
look interesting but didn't run today. Are they passenger services?
<https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
<https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>

The headcode of the latter brings back some fond memories!

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t56uop$76n$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29197&group=uk.railway#29197

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 23:18:49 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sat, 7 May 2022 23:18 UTC

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 22:22, Recliner wrote:
>> James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>>
>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>>> ?station and then reverse back in??
>>>
>>>
>>> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>>>
>>> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
>>> platform - then off to the Far North.
>>
>> I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
>> platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
>> long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
>> outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.
>>
>>>
>>> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
>>> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
>>> withdrawn.
>>
>> Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.
>>
> Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>

It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.

<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C17145/2022-05-08/detailed>

>
> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
> It ran once a day until quite recently. These two unadvertised workings
> look interesting but didn't run today. Are they passenger services?

They're shown as GBRf freight trains

> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>
>
> The headcode of the latter brings back some fond memories!
>

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