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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

SubjectAuthor
* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
 `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
  +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
  |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
  | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
   `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
    `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
     `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
      `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
       `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
        `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeGraeme Wall
         |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeNY
         |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         | |+* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         | ||`- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         | |  `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |   `* Ticket question - reasonable routeTweed
         |    `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |     |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |     | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |     |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoger Lynn
         |     |   +- Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |     |   `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     +* Ticket question - reasonable routeTweed
         |     |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         |     | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeGraeme Wall
         |     `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |      `* Ticket question - reasonable routeColinR
         |       +- Ticket question - reasonable routeChristopher A. Lee
         |       +* Ticket question - reasonable routeJames Heaton
         |       |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         |       |  +* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |+* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |       |  ||+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  ||`* Ticket question - reasonable routeMike Humphrey
         |       |  || +* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         |       |  || |+- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  || |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeTheo
         |       |  || | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  || `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |       |  | `* Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       |  |  `- Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |       |  `* Ticket question - reasonable routeMike Humphrey
         |       |   `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRecliner
         |       `* Ticket question - reasonable routeAnna Noyd-Dryver
         |        `- Ticket question - reasonable routeSam Wilson
         +* Ticket question - reasonable routeNY
         |`* Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | +* Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         | |`- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry
         | `- Ticket question - reasonable routeCertes
         `* Ticket question - reasonable routeScott
          `- Ticket question - reasonable routeRoland Perry

Pages:123
Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t584f3$1pk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: mai...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk (Mike Humphrey)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:02:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mike Humphrey - Sun, 8 May 2022 10:02 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:46:26 +0100, Certes wrote:

> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.

Yes, the Kyle-Elgin train reversed just south of the station and ran into
the south-facing platforms. I asked about this before and was told that
the connection into platform 5 isn't signalled for passenger use, so this
is the only way a through train could call at Inverness. This no longer
runs, so I presume the chord is now officially closed to passenger
services.

> These two unadvertised workings look interesting but didn't run today.
> Are they passenger services?
> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>

No idea what these are. A long loco-hauled train would suggest an
excursion, but the timings look somewhat implausible - it spends a lot of
time waiting at various places. Also a train that size wouldn't fit in
platform 7 at Inverness, so there's at least one error in the data.

Mike

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t584tc$h17$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:09:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 10:09 UTC

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:46:26 +0100, Certes wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
>> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
>
> Yes, the Kyle-Elgin train reversed just south of the station and ran into
> the south-facing platforms. I asked about this before and was told that
> the connection into platform 5 isn't signalled for passenger use, so this
> is the only way a through train could call at Inverness.

I wonder why not?

Incidentally, I think that platform is used to turn steam engines.

> This no longer
> runs, so I presume the chord is now officially closed to passenger
> services.
>
>> These two unadvertised workings look interesting but didn't run today.
>> Are they passenger services?
>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>
>
> No idea what these are. A long loco-hauled train would suggest an
> excursion, but the timings look somewhat implausible - it spends a lot of
> time waiting at various places. Also a train that size wouldn't fit in
> platform 7 at Inverness, so there's at least one error in the data.
>

Might it be a parcels train that unloads at the platform?

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<aKk*IKENy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sun, 8 May 2022 11:07 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
> > <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>
>
> It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
> which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
> between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.

It's the Royal Scotsman Highland tour, where the time in Inverness is
advertised as a trip to Culloden:
Day 2: 1H90 1200 Aviemore - Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Royal+Scotsman+2021
(although presumably you could skip the coach and have 3 hours in Inverness)

Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west side
of Inverness for that journey.

Theo

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<beaf7hhnajrecs2haagdu73be2vrb7l06p@4ax.com>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Message-ID: <beaf7hhnajrecs2haagdu73be2vrb7l06p@4ax.com>
References: <22657hhh3infqlq3e4irq2n5neghsoakmo@4ax.com> <Ugug+5jaTsciFADL@perry.uk> <cKk*gylNy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uxC+6uwqc5ciFA0D@perry.uk> <ooohki-vm7.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk> <66KL4ksPKldiFA+6@perry.uk> <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me> <vITukatoAndiFAfy@perry.uk> <t55vod$l6i$1@dont-email.me> <t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me> <t56it1$me1$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t56nu7$m7h$1@dont-email.me> <t56ss3$qv4$1@dont-email.me> <t56uop$76n$1@dont-email.me> <aKk*IKENy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 11:40 UTC

On 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> > Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
>> > <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>
>>
>> It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
>> which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
>> between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.
>
>It's the Royal Scotsman Highland tour, where the time in Inverness is
>advertised as a trip to Culloden:
>Day 2: 1H90 1200 Aviemore - Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee
>http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Royal+Scotsman+2021
>(although presumably you could skip the coach and have 3 hours in Inverness)
>
>Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
>triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west side
>of Inverness for that journey.

It's hauled by 'GBRf Class 66 locos 66743 or 66746 in Royal Scotsman livery', so no need to turn the loco. Also, the
only way to turn a loco is to use platform 5. The 66 runs round at Rose Street at 1542-1602. The stay in platform 7(?)
seems to be to service the train, with platform 2 being needed for other services.

<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C17141/2022-05-07/detailed>

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t58qde$gks$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 16:16:46 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:16 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 22:22, Recliner wrote:
>>> James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>>>> ?station and then reverse back in??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>>>>
>>>> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
>>>> platform - then off to the Far North.
>>>
>>> I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
>>> platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
>>> long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
>>> outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
>>>> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
>>>> withdrawn.
>>>
>>> Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.
>>>
>> Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>
>
> It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
> which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
> between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.
>
> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C17145/2022-05-08/detailed>
>
>>
>> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
>> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
>> It ran once a day until quite recently. These two unadvertised workings
>> look interesting but didn't run today. Are they passenger services?
>
> They're shown as GBRf freight trains
>
>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>
>>
>> The headcode of the latter brings back some fond memories!
>>
>

Realtime Trains obfuscates the headcodes to 'FRGT' (and 'runs as required'
but not activated for yesterday), but OTT shows them as class 1 passenger
trains; presumably regular paths for a land cruise type train? (They’re in
for the next few Sundays)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 16:23:07 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:23 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2022 22:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>> James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>>>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>>>>> ?station and then reverse back in??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
>>>>> platform - then off to the Far North.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
>>>> platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
>>>> long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
>>>> outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
>>>>> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
>>>>> withdrawn.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.
>>>>
>>> Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>
>>
>> It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
>> which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
>> between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.
>>
>> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C17145/2022-05-08/detailed>
>>
>>>
>>> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
>>> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
>>> It ran once a day until quite recently. These two unadvertised workings
>>> look interesting but didn't run today. Are they passenger services?
>>
>> They're shown as GBRf freight trains
>>
>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>
>>>
>>> The headcode of the latter brings back some fond memories!
>>>
>>
>
> Realtime Trains obfuscates the headcodes to 'FRGT' (and 'runs as required'
> but not activated for yesterday), but OTT shows them as class 1 passenger
> trains; presumably regular paths for a land cruise type train? (They’re in
> for the next few Sundays)

It's already been answered: they're Royal Scotsman Highland tours, hauled
by GBRf 66s.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 17:12:13 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Sun, 8 May 2022 17:12 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>> On 07/05/2022 22:22, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "ColinR" wrote in message news:t561j9$29r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/05/2022 15:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t55lie$9ak$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:35:42 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you are travelling south and want any of the stations between
>>>>>>>>> Kettering and St Pancras you are expected to change at Kettering onto
>>>>>>>>> the Connect service. For us north of Kettering it does have the
>>>>>>>>> advantage that it keeps a bunch of commuters off the trains that used
>>>>>>>>> to clog them up in the evening out of St Pancras.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>>>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>>>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6tph, taking between 42 minutes and 1 hour; the fastest 2tph calling only
>>>>>>> at Luton, Luton and London. Sounds pretty good to me tbh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mmmm, interesting. Does it depart Luton, stop 100 yards out of the
>>>>>> ?station and then reverse back in??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTR there was a train that did exactly that at Inverness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Came in from the east - called in a low number platform - then a high number
>>>>>> platform - then off to the Far North.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why it would visit the station twice? It could either use
>>>>> platform 5, which is accessible from both the east and west, or if too
>>>>> long, use a low numbered platform, reverse twice (at the platform and again
>>>>> outside the station), then continue towards Dingwall.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It covered the track between the 2 halves of Inverness (Rose St?) which
>>>>>> otherwise had no passenger service since the Far North sleeper was
>>>>>> withdrawn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that track would be covered if any platform other than 5 is used.
>>>>>
>>>> Surprisingly, such a train still runs, though not to the far north.
>>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17141/2022-05-07>
>>>
>>> It's shown as a (DBC?) freight train from Aviemore to Dundee via Inverness,
>>> which, remarkably, visits platform 1 twice, with the loco running round in
>>> between at Rose Street! It doesn't proceed west of the Inverness area.
>>>
>>> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C17145/2022-05-08/detailed>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I seem to recall an Elgin-Kyle or similar which called at Inverness
>>>> once, reversing in the platform (obviously) and again just outside.
>>>> It ran once a day until quite recently. These two unadvertised workings
>>>> look interesting but didn't run today. Are they passenger services?
>>>
>>> They're shown as GBRf freight trains
>>>
>>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17087/2022-05-07>
>>>> <https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C17099/2022-05-07>
>>>>
>>>> The headcode of the latter brings back some fond memories!
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Realtime Trains obfuscates the headcodes to 'FRGT' (and 'runs as required'
>> but not activated for yesterday), but OTT shows them as class 1 passenger
>> trains; presumably regular paths for a land cruise type train? (They’re in
>> for the next few Sundays)
>
> It's already been answered: they're Royal Scotsman Highland tours, hauled
> by GBRf 66s.
>

Yes, those replies only got downloaded to my newsreader as my reply got
sent! Pleased that I reached basically the same conclusion, though ;)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: mai...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk (Mike Humphrey)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:00:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mike Humphrey - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:00 UTC

On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
> side of Inverness for that journey.

The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
turned at all.

Mike

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: non...@nowhere.net (Certes)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:46:31 +0100
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 by: Certes - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:46 UTC

On 08/05/2022 21:00, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
>> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
>> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
>> side of Inverness for that journey.
>
> The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
> platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
> expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
> where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
> into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
> short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
> turned at all.

Sounds unlikely, unless the train is really long and unloads the front
several carriages in platform 2 then the rear few in platform 7!

However, NR's own photo of Platform 7 shows a charter train in it.
<https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HotspotDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_INV&HotspotId=42047>

Is it simply a move to get the train out of the way for a while?

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:58:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:58 UTC

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
>> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
>> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
>> side of Inverness for that journey.
>
> The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
> platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
> expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
> where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
> into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
> short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
> turned at all.

More on the train:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmond_Royal_Scotsman>

<https://docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/belmondRS.htm>

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:14:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 21:14 UTC

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 21:00, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
>>> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
>>> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
>>> side of Inverness for that journey.
>>
>> The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
>> platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
>> expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
>> where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
>> into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
>> short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
>> turned at all.
>
> Sounds unlikely, unless the train is really long and unloads the front
> several carriages in platform 2 then the rear few in platform 7!

It's not long enough for that (10 carriages, 206m long plus the loco).

>
> However, NR's own photo of Platform 7 shows a charter train in it.
> <https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HotspotDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_INV&HotspotId=42047>

Yes, the very same train! Technically, I don't suppose it's a charter, as
the tour is operated by Belmond, which owns the train.

>
> Is it simply a move to get the train out of the way for a while?

Yes, that's what I suggested.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: 08 May 2022 22:28:02 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sun, 8 May 2022 21:28 UTC

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 21:00, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> > On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
> >> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
> >> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
> >> side of Inverness for that journey.
> >
> > The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
> > platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
> > expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
> > where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
> > into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
> > short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
> > turned at all.
>
> Sounds unlikely, unless the train is really long and unloads the front
> several carriages in platform 2 then the rear few in platform 7!
>
> However, NR's own photo of Platform 7 shows a charter train in it.
> <https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HotspotDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_INV&HotspotId=42047>

That's the Royal Scotsman, in fact.

> Is it simply a move to get the train out of the way for a while?

It's puzzling what happens after it's been in platform 7. It heads off
towards Dingwall and reverses at Rose Street. This manoeuvre takes 20
minutes. It then heads off towards Nairn without going into Inverness
again.

I suppose the passengers reboard from platform 7 (walking through the
train?) and are tucking into their afternoon tea at that point so maybe they
don't mind sitting there round the back of the industrial estate for 20
minutes. And the train also does setting back moves at Keith and Dundee, so
maybe they get used to it.

Or perhaps they're taken by coach direct to Keith? That's the location of
the next stop, Strathisla distillery. In which case they don't need to
board at Inverness, and the waiting around is with an empty train.

Theo

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:36:09 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 8 May 2022 21:36 UTC

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 08/05/2022 21:00, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 08 May 2022 12:07:52 +0100, Theo wrote:
>>>> Is the Inverness shuffle perhaps used to turn the (steam?) loco on the
>>>> triangle? Since I don't think you would strictly need to use the west
>>>> side of Inverness for that journey.
>>>
>>> The described set of moves don't turn anything - it would need to go to
>>> platform 5 for that. It starts off running into platform 2, which is as
>>> expected - 1 and 2 are the long platforms and probably the only ones
>>> where it would fit. Then it backs out, runs round the curve, and backs
>>> into platform 7. This is somewhat implausible as platform 7 is a very
>>> short bay platform. It then runs back the way it came, so not having
>>> turned at all.
>>
>> Sounds unlikely, unless the train is really long and unloads the front
>> several carriages in platform 2 then the rear few in platform 7!
>>
>> However, NR's own photo of Platform 7 shows a charter train in it.
>> <https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HotspotDetails.aspx?StdCode=SME_INV&HotspotId=42047>
>
> That's the Royal Scotsman, in fact.
>
>> Is it simply a move to get the train out of the way for a while?
>
> It's puzzling what happens after it's been in platform 7. It heads off
> towards Dingwall and reverses at Rose Street. This manoeuvre takes 20
> minutes. It then heads off towards Nairn without going into Inverness
> again.
>
> I suppose the passengers reboard from platform 7 (walking through the
> train?) and are tucking into their afternoon tea at that point so maybe they
> don't mind sitting there round the back of the industrial estate for 20
> minutes. And the train also does setting back moves at Keith and Dundee, so
> maybe they get used to it.
>
> Or perhaps they're taken by coach direct to Keith? That's the location of
> the next stop, Strathisla distillery. In which case they don't need to
> board at Inverness, and the waiting around is with an empty train.

Yes, that would make sense.

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: use...@rilynn.me.uk (Roger Lynn)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 23:23:22 +0100
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 by: Roger Lynn - Mon, 9 May 2022 22:23 UTC

On 07/05/2022 17:26, Recliner wrote:
> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/05/2022 14:38, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>
>>>> What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>>>>
>>>> (Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>>>> Peterborough).
>>>
>>> Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to
>>> speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
>>> partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is
>>> planning to reduce the services to intermediate
>>> stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.
>>
>> The obvious stations to drop (if they haven't already) would be Retford,
>> Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. It would be preferable just to add an
>> additional fast train, which I'm sure has been proposed many times in the
>> past. Journeys from the East Midlands stations (and connections from
>> Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire) are already often difficult because of the
>> lack of connections at Doncaster, particularly to Edinburgh.
>
> I can't see any KGX-LDS trains with fewer than three intermediate stops
> (PBO, DON, WKF). In contrast, York gets some non-stop London services.

They are the fast trains to Edinburgh. There are no non-stop services to
York that terminate at or near York (same for Newcastle, Edinburgh and any
other ICEC destination you care to choose). If there was a fast train to
Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle then perhaps that would be non-stop to Leeds.

> I think the proposal is to speed up some of the Leeds services by dropping
> one or more of those three stops, along with increasing the line speed when
> and where the new ETCS signalling permits. So Leeds will get some faster
> London service at the expense of worse service and connectivity at the
> intermediate stations.

Speeds between Doncaster and Leeds are only 70-100 mph with a 35 mph
restriction just south of Wakefield Westgate. Is there any scope for
increasing these?

Running fast trains via Hambleton Junction has often been suggested, but
never actually done as far as I know. That route has enhanced Sprinter speed
restrictions. Are IETs allowed to make use of these?

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<t5cs52$6dn$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 05:10:58 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Tue, 10 May 2022 05:10 UTC

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 17:26, Recliner wrote:
>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2022 14:38, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>> stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of those
>>>>> headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to consider rail
>>>>> as a way to commute to London.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at Peterborough?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>>>>> Peterborough).
>>>>
>>>> Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants to
>>>> speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
>>>> partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is
>>>> planning to reduce the services to intermediate
>>>> stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.
>>>
>>> The obvious stations to drop (if they haven't already) would be Retford,
>>> Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. It would be preferable just to add an
>>> additional fast train, which I'm sure has been proposed many times in the
>>> past. Journeys from the East Midlands stations (and connections from
>>> Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire) are already often difficult because of the
>>> lack of connections at Doncaster, particularly to Edinburgh.
>>
>> I can't see any KGX-LDS trains with fewer than three intermediate stops
>> (PBO, DON, WKF). In contrast, York gets some non-stop London services.
>
> They are the fast trains to Edinburgh. There are no non-stop services to
> York that terminate at or near York (same for Newcastle, Edinburgh and any
> other ICEC destination you care to choose). If there was a fast train to
> Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle then perhaps that would be non-stop to Leeds.
>
>> I think the proposal is to speed up some of the Leeds services by dropping
>> one or more of those three stops, along with increasing the line speed when
>> and where the new ETCS signalling permits. So Leeds will get some faster
>> London service at the expense of worse service and connectivity at the
>> intermediate stations.
>
> Speeds between Doncaster and Leeds are only 70-100 mph with a 35 mph
> restriction just south of Wakefield Westgate. Is there any scope for
> increasing these?
>
> Running fast trains via Hambleton Junction has often been suggested, but
> never actually done as far as I know. That route has enhanced Sprinter speed
> restrictions. Are IETs allowed to make use of these?
>

If they're SP (Sprinter) speeds then no. If they're MU (multiple unit)
speeds then yes.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Ticket question - reasonable route

<gpv9sp0WTgeiFAVK@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Ticket question - reasonable route
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 07:23:18 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 10 May 2022 06:23 UTC

In message <rrgoki-n82.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 23:23:22 on Mon, 9
May 2022, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>On 07/05/2022 17:26, Recliner wrote:
>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 07/05/2022 14:38, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:12:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> My observations were that about half the passengers on ones which
>>>>>stopped at Bedford, got off there. While it improves the lot of
>>>>>those headed further north, it hardy encourages Bedfordians to
>>>>>consider rail as a way to commute to London.
>>>>> What's next - almost nothing LNER on the ECML stopping at
>>>>>Peterborough?
>>>>> (Change to EMR at Grantham and then again to Thameslink at
>>>>> Peterborough).
>>>> Something like that is being contemplated by the DfT, which wants
>>>>
>>>> speed up London to Leeds services on the ECML to
>>>> partially compensate for the truncation of the HS2 eastern arm. It is
>>>> planning to reduce the services to intermediate
>>>> stations, in order to have reduced stops on the Leeds services.
>>> The obvious stations to drop (if they haven't already) would be
>>>Retford, Newark, Grantham and Stevenage. It would be preferable just
>>>to add an additional fast train, which I'm sure has been proposed
>>>many times in the past. Journeys from the East Midlands stations
>>>(and connections from Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire) are already
>>>often difficult because of the lack of connections at Doncaster,
>>>particularly to Edinburgh.
>> I can't see any KGX-LDS trains with fewer than three intermediate
>>stops
>> (PBO, DON, WKF). In contrast, York gets some non-stop London services.
>
>They are the fast trains to Edinburgh. There are no non-stop services
>to York that terminate at or near York (same for Newcastle, Edinburgh
>and any other ICEC destination you care to choose). If there was a fast
>train to Glasgow via Leeds and Carlisle

Sounds like it would need to use the Settle line. That's not usually
described as "fast".

>then perhaps that would be non-stop to Leeds.
>
>> I think the proposal is to speed up some of the Leeds services by dropping
>> one or more of those three stops, along with increasing the line speed when
>> and where the new ETCS signalling permits. So Leeds will get some faster
>> London service at the expense of worse service and connectivity at the
>> intermediate stations.
>
>Speeds between Doncaster and Leeds are only 70-100 mph with a 35 mph
>restriction just south of Wakefield Westgate. Is there any scope for
>increasing these?
>
>Running fast trains via Hambleton Junction has often been suggested,
>but never actually done as far as I know. That route has enhanced
>Sprinter speed restrictions. Are IETs allowed to make use of these?

--
Roland Perry

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