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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<FN+01ZeRa+eiFATi@perry.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29315&group=uk.railway#29315

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:38:41 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 42
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 by: Roland Perry - Wed, 11 May 2022 16:38 UTC

In message <t5gj8l$o73$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:51 on Wed, 11 May
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with
>>>>>no mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or whatever
>>>>>but what about during a power cut?
>>
>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>>profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced or
>>>>paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a monopolist
>>>>can get away with.

>> They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>>regulator to cope with?
>>
>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of
>>>the Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per year.
>>>
>>> I don't call eight per year rare.

>> It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they
>>last? Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone
>>replacing something) to a couple of minutes.
>
>Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
>(annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them). We
>were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
>Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will last
>that long.

The storm in the Highlands was an exceptional event. In 50yrs of
adulthood, I've only ever been cut off from power twice, for more
than a couple of days because of storms, and that was before we
were joined at the hip to our IT equipment, and in semi-rural areas
(where fallen trees were the issue).
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29316&group=uk.railway#29316

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:16:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:16 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>
>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>
>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>
>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the largest of the
>> altnets and set to be the third biggest network behind OpenReach and Virgin
>> Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>
>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>
>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying an asymmetric
>> FTTP product.
>
> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
> major exercise!).

Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
fibre. CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural
areas.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5gr6q$2e3$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29317&group=uk.railway#29317

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:19:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:19 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t58krv$5jv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:07 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with
>>>>>>>>> your bare
>>>>>>>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or cabinet
>>>>>>> safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken is if someone messes
>>>>>>> about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
>>>>>>> houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the copper local
>>>>>> loop has something but not too much with its impending replacement with
>>>>>> fibre. If you are OpenReach with copper that can at best supply 80
>>>>>> Mbit/sec
>>>>>> down and 20 up, and your competitors come along with fibre that can manage
>>>>>> an order of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>> average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive in the
>>>>>> market place.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>
>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>
>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'd have preferred FTTP, but Openreach haven't done that in my
>>> street yet. And with the "end of copper" deadline heading for the long
>>> grass, I decided I didn't want to wait.
>>>
>>>>> But who are Openreach's competitors most of the country? Virgin's
>>>>> precursors gave up extending their network 20yrs ago.
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of local FTTP competitors, but I'm not sure if there
>>>> are any national ones.
>>>
>>> Are those FTTP competitors using their own networks, dug by them through
>>> the streets; or are they Piggy-backing Openreach's FTTP? In a sense LLU,
>>> but in this case the local [all the way back to wherever Openreach's
>>> head end is] loop is fibre, not copper.
>>>
>>>>> There's no Virgin here, and actually only two LLU.
>>>
>>
>> Read up on CityFibres plans and financing. They are digging round here and
>> intend to (and nearby are) offer service in the same streets as Virgin
>> Media and OpenReach. They aren’t the only ones going for the suburban
>> market.
>>
>> https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network
>
> Interesting, if somewhat spotty, network map there. With some clusters.
> They say they have their own exchanges, and there's obviously one
> in/near Crawley. I wonder what's so special about North Walsham (near
> Norwich)... other than maybe the Bacton Gas Terminal.
>
>> CF lay their own fibre, mainly in their own ducts (purple pipes) but
>> sometime seem to use existing OR ducts into the house. They have their own
>> head end “exchanges”. Unlike OR’s FTTP, CF offer symmetric up and down
>> speeds up to 1 GBit/sec. It’s a wholesale network and you can choose from a
>> number of retail provides. Vodafone and Zen seem to be the main players at
>> the moment.
>>
>> Your high speed FTTC connection only works because you are very near to
>> your cabinet, so you are lucky.
>
> I'm not *that* close for a built-up area.
>
>> It’s nothing to do with OR trying harder.
>
> It is, because they bothered to equip the cabinet with G-Fast.
>
> Ironically, people living further from the exchange here *can* get FTTP!
> That's because ...
>
>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>> speed.
>
> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>
>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>
>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>
> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
Actually you are. Since you are being nit picky I’ll do the same. OpenReach
is wholly owned by BT.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5grvn$8b0$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29318&group=uk.railway#29318

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:32:39 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:32 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t58krv$5jv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:07 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with
>>>>>>>>> your bare
>>>>>>>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or cabinet
>>>>>>> safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken is if someone messes
>>>>>>> about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
>>>>>>> houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the copper local
>>>>>> loop has something but not too much with its impending replacement with
>>>>>> fibre. If you are OpenReach with copper that can at best supply 80
>>>>>> Mbit/sec
>>>>>> down and 20 up, and your competitors come along with fibre that can manage
>>>>>> an order of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>> average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive in the
>>>>>> market place.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>
>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>
>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'd have preferred FTTP, but Openreach haven't done that in my
>>> street yet. And with the "end of copper" deadline heading for the long
>>> grass, I decided I didn't want to wait.
>>>
>>>>> But who are Openreach's competitors most of the country? Virgin's
>>>>> precursors gave up extending their network 20yrs ago.
>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of local FTTP competitors, but I'm not sure if there
>>>> are any national ones.
>>>
>>> Are those FTTP competitors using their own networks, dug by them through
>>> the streets; or are they Piggy-backing Openreach's FTTP? In a sense LLU,
>>> but in this case the local [all the way back to wherever Openreach's
>>> head end is] loop is fibre, not copper.
>>>
>>>>> There's no Virgin here, and actually only two LLU.
>>>
>>
>> Read up on CityFibres plans and financing. They are digging round here and
>> intend to (and nearby are) offer service in the same streets as Virgin
>> Media and OpenReach. They aren’t the only ones going for the suburban
>> market.
>>
>> https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network
>
> Interesting, if somewhat spotty, network map there. With some clusters.
> They say they have their own exchanges, and there's obviously one
> in/near Crawley. I wonder what's so special about North Walsham (near
> Norwich)... other than maybe the Bacton Gas Terminal.
>
>> CF lay their own fibre, mainly in their own ducts (purple pipes) but
>> sometime seem to use existing OR ducts into the house. They have their own
>> head end “exchanges”. Unlike OR’s FTTP, CF offer symmetric up and down
>> speeds up to 1 GBit/sec. It’s a wholesale network and you can choose from a
>> number of retail provides. Vodafone and Zen seem to be the main players at
>> the moment.
>>
>> Your high speed FTTC connection only works because you are very near to
>> your cabinet, so you are lucky.
>
> I'm not *that* close for a built-up area.
>
>> It’s nothing to do with OR trying harder.
>
> It is, because they bothered to equip the cabinet with G-Fast.
>
> Ironically, people living further from the exchange here *can* get FTTP!
> That's because ...
>
>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>> speed.
>
> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>
>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>
>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>
> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
>
>> to alter the speed frequencies of the connection. This change within
>> the frequencies increases the speed through the copper cable which
>> results in a more reliable broadband with ultrafast speeds.
>
> As I usually put it, each advance in the speed of ADSL is basically by
> SHOUTING LOUDER down the copper, and some better modem silicon, just
> like we progressed from 2.4K to 14.4k (via 9.6K) dial-up over a
> relatively short period.
>
Well you’d be putting it wrong if you think it is to do with shouting
louder. By that I assume you mean increasing the amplitude of the signals.
It’s actually achieved by increasing the number of subcarrier frequencies
used:

“It encodes digital data for transmission over copper wires. The only
difference is that it uses a wider range of frequencies, ADSL1 is 1.1MHz,
ADSL2+ is 2.2MHz, VDSL as deployed by BT is 17MHz, and G.Fast goes over
100MHz.”

Those higher frequencies get attenuated earlier by increasing line length,
hence the very limited range of gfast between your street cabinet and your
house.

From what I’ve read OpenReach have stopped installing new gfast plant
equipment in favour of their newfound enthusiasm for proper fibre FTTP.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5gs6q$9rd$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29319&group=uk.railway#29319

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:36:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:36 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t58mm1$joe$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:13:05 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with
>>>>>>>>> your bare
>>>>>>>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or cabinet
>>>>>>> safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken is if someone messes
>>>>>>> about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
>>>>>>> houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the copper local
>>>>>> loop has something but not too much with its impending replacement with
>>>>>> fibre. If you are OpenReach with copper that can at best supply 80
>>>>>> Mbit/sec
>>>>>> down and 20 up, and your competitors come along with fibre that can manage
>>>>>> an order of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>> average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive in the
>>>>>> market place.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>
>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>
>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>
>> What upload speeds do you get?
>
> I listed them earlier, but two of the speed tests say I'm getting 47Mbps
> of the theoretical maximum of 50Mbps.
>
> In fact they are so consistent about that (while giving different
> download speeds) I'm inclined to think it's 100% of the theoretical
> maximum, and "50" is just some marketing person rounding up "47".

There’s a difference between sync speed and data throughput speed -
protocol overheads. Marketing will sell the former, speed tests will
measure the latter.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5gsel$bq7$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29320&group=uk.railway#29320

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:40:37 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:40 UTC

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 12:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t58krv$5jv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:07 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May
>>>>>> 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart with
>>>>>>>>>> your bare
>>>>>>>>>> hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it
>>>>>>>>> a few
>>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit or
>>>>>>>> cabinet
>>>>>>>> safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken is if someone
>>>>>>>> messes
>>>>>>>> about with it. The only exception would be overhead wires from
>>>>>>>> poles to
>>>>>>>> houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the
>>>>>>> copper local
>>>>>>> loop has something but not too much with its impending replacement
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> fibre. If you are OpenReach with copper that can at best supply 80
>>>>>>> Mbit/sec
>>>>>>> down and 20 up, and your competitors come along with fibre that
>>>>>>> can manage
>>>>>>> an order of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>>> average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> market place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>>
>>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I'd have preferred FTTP, but Openreach haven't done that in my
>>>> street yet. And with the "end of copper" deadline heading for the long
>>>> grass, I decided I didn't want to wait.
>>>>
>>>>>> But who are Openreach's competitors most of the country? Virgin's
>>>>>> precursors gave up extending their network 20yrs ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of local FTTP competitors, but I'm not sure if there
>>>>> are any national ones.
>>>>
>>>> Are those FTTP competitors using their own networks, dug by them through
>>>> the streets; or are they Piggy-backing Openreach's FTTP? In a sense LLU,
>>>> but in this case the local [all the way back to wherever Openreach's
>>>> head end is] loop is fibre, not copper.
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no Virgin here, and actually only two LLU.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Read up on CityFibres plans and financing. They are digging round here
>>> and
>>> intend to (and nearby are) offer service in the same streets as Virgin
>>> Media and OpenReach. They aren’t the only ones going for the suburban
>>> market.
>>>
>>> https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network
>>
>> Interesting, if somewhat spotty, network map there. With some clusters.
>> They say they have their own exchanges, and there's obviously one
>> in/near Crawley. I wonder what's so special about North Walsham (near
>> Norwich)... other than maybe the Bacton Gas Terminal.
>>
>>> CF lay their own fibre, mainly in their own ducts (purple pipes) but
>>> sometime seem to use existing OR ducts into the house. They have their
>>> own
>>> head end “exchanges”. Unlike OR’s FTTP, CF offer symmetric up and down
>>> speeds up to 1 GBit/sec. It’s a wholesale network and you can choose
>>> from a
>>> number of retail provides. Vodafone and Zen seem to be the main
>>> players at
>>> the moment.
>>>
>>> Your high speed FTTC connection only works because you are very near to
>>> your cabinet, so you are lucky.
>>
>> I'm not *that* close for a built-up area.
>>
>>> It’s nothing to do with OR trying harder.
>>
>> It is, because they bothered to equip the cabinet with G-Fast.
>>
>> Ironically, people living further from the exchange here *can* get FTTP!
>> That's because ...
>>
>>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>>> speed.
>>
>> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>>
>>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>>
>>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised
>>> equipment
>>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>>
>> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
>>
>>> to alter the speed frequencies of the connection. This change within
>>> the frequencies increases the speed through the copper cable which
>>> results in a more reliable broadband with ultrafast speeds.
>>
>> As I usually put it, each advance in the speed of ADSL is basically by
>> SHOUTING LOUDER down the copper, and some better modem silicon, just
>> like we progressed from 2.4K to 14.4k (via 9.6K) dial-up over a
>> relatively short period.
>>
>>> GFast users are typically located no more than 500 metres from their
>>> local BT cabinet.”
>>
>> The product formerly known as 'Infinity' is usually reckoned to be
>> 60Mbps at 500m, and I know I was getting more than that. I have the ID
>> of the street cabinet I'm connected to, unfortunately not a map of which
>> street cabinet has which ID. The most likely one is at 120m (which is
>> nevertheless a whole block way). Plus of course up the pole, the
>> dropwire, and back down the side of the house, which must be about
>> another 50m. However, the FTTC curves are virtually flat as far as 200m.
>>
>>> Virgin Media have said they are going to replace their entire hybrid
>>> coax/fibre network with proper fibre (and eliminate the DOCSIS bodge)
>>> over
>>> the next 7 years - so they’ve noticed they have to invest to survive.
>>> If OR
>>> sticks with copper they’ll be left without a viable business in the long
>>> term, being left with only the expensive to service rural customers.
>>
>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with no
> mobile coverage. It's all very well say IP phones or whatever but what
> about during a power cut?
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 17:47:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Wed, 11 May 2022 17:47 UTC

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with no
>>>>> mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or whatever but
>>>>> what about during a power cut?
>>
>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>> profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced or
>>>> paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a monopolist
>>>> can get away with.
>>
>> They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>> regulator to cope with?
>>
>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of the
>>> Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per year.
>>>
>>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>>
>> It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they last?
>> Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone replacing
>> something) to a couple of minutes.
>>
>
> Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
> (annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them). We
> were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
> Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will last
> that long.
>

Batteries will last if you only power your equipment when you need to make
that emergency phone call. I foresee lithium ion packs being sold with a
button to turn them on and a pass through/charge connection from the wall
wart.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 22:26:50 +0100
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 by: ColinR - Wed, 11 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On 11/05/2022 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t5gj8l$o73$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:51 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with
>>>>>> no  mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or whatever
>>>>>> but  what about during a power cut?
>>>
>>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>>> profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced or
>>>>> paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a monopolist
>>>>> can get away with.
>
>>>  They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>>> regulator to cope with?
>>>
>>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of
>>>> the  Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per year.
>>>>
>>>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>
>>>  It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they
>>> last?  Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone
>>> replacing  something) to a couple of minutes.
>>
>> Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
>> (annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them). We
>> were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
>> Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will
>> last that long.
>
> The storm in the Highlands was an exceptional event. In 50yrs of
> adulthood, I've only ever been cut off from power twice, for more
> than a couple of days because of storms, and that was before we
> were joined at the hip to our IT equipment, and in semi-rural areas
> (where fallen trees were the issue).

Strangely enough, most power cuts here are not trees falling (very few
trees in Shetland) but by fire.

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: charlese...@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:15 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Thu, 12 May 2022 01:46 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:42:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <seal7hlb4mba9754si94d7rncgbrehap3t@4ax.com>, at 19:11:00 on
>Tue, 10 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:08:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <66hg7h5ju801po4lsurtivi8uqhfslfrkj@4ax.com>, at 23:32:02 on
>>>Sun, 8 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>On Sat, 7 May 2022 14:14:38 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <8gia7hhuamnp3vhs8sj1j3803kv35or8ms@4ax.com>, at 17:19:52 on
>>>>>Fri, 6 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:54:37 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In message <t53828$9ne$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:56 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
>>>>>>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May
>>>>>>>>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2
>>>>>>>>>>>May 2022,
>>>>>>>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>definitions of "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that'll be but ultimately you'll be left with the  common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Darlek, but dropouts where there's either silence, or so little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bandwidth available one only receives every third word.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>they seem to insist  on the guest using zoom or similar,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>then halfway through the interview the  line dies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the
>>>>>>>>>>virtual line between the participants dies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was
>>>>>>>>>very difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was
>>>>>>>>>lost. After struggling for a while, the radio station called them
>>>>>>>>>back on a landline (something I've never heard them actually describe
>>>>>>>>>quite as explicitly in the past).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have
>>>>>>>>>the dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the
>>>>>>>>>intermittent connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<-
>>>>>>>>>their word) cloud (their word was of course 'line').
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>>>>>>>physically connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
>>>>>>>used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the line", "its a
>>>>>>>dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking back to
>>>>>>>technology of the last century.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
>>>>>>the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>I wasn't aware that PSTN connections could change the copper they were
>>>>>using, mid-call.
>>>>>
>>>>Copper?
>>>
>>>Yes, it's the thing they make most of the wires out of, back when they
>>>installed the PSTN network.
>>>
>>I wasn't aware that you were stuck in the 19th century.
>
>I'm not, and nor will Openreach be, for much longer. Ripping out the
>copper. [Did Post Office Telephones even have a switched telephone
>network in the 1890's?]
>
The National Telephone Company did. It was switched by lots of ladies
putting plugs in and out. The GPO were also already involved in
telephones but for practical purposes were only involved in having
their own network (distinct from linking lots of local ones) when the
NTC was nationalised in 1912 after a Tory government started the
process in 1905.

>I'm pretty sure that manual telephone operators didn't pull plugs out
>and then re-route the call a different way mid sentence, even in the
>1950's.
>
Ah, now you are returning to a different part of the thread rather
than the bit where you introduced copper into a process involving
other elements.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 05:38:34 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 04:38 UTC

In message <t5gj0j$itg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:59:31 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5e1u4$n5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:48 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/05/2022 07:59, Ken wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 07:37:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> My local provider, Gigaclear, is curremtly offering 600/600 for
>>>>> £26/month.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gigaclear.com/
>>>>
>>>> "Upload/download speed", so Marketing may have added the upload to the
>>>> download or similar deception.
>>>
>>> It says those are the average upload and download speeds.
>>
>> I agree, there's no reason why they won't both work at the same time
>> (remembering, of course, that you'll be sharing 1GB with up to a dozen
>> or so neighbours, so it depends what they are doing at the same time).
>>
>>>> Actual price £59 a month, increasing at
>>>> inflation + 3.5%, but still good value if it really is 600/600.
>>>
>>> Fixed at £26/month for 18 months. The chances are that a similar deal with
>>> be offered at the expiry of the 18 months contract.
>>
>> But not for existing customers.
>
>My successive fibre contracts have each been an improvement (higher speeds
>or lower cost),

When we discover who that is, we can see if they have these commonplace
"half price for 12/18/24 month" deals, and whether they let existing
customers roll over to whatever their new introductory offer is.

However, I suspect we may find it's something else.

>and prices are fixed for the duration of the contract.

Again, almost no-one guarantees that prices won't rise by at least
inflation, after the minimum contract period.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 05:01:02 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:01 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5gj0j$itg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:59:31 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5e1u4$n5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:48 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/05/2022 07:59, Ken wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 07:37:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My local provider, Gigaclear, is curremtly offering 600/600 for
>>>>>> £26/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gigaclear.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> "Upload/download speed", so Marketing may have added the upload to the
>>>>> download or similar deception.
>>>>
>>>> It says those are the average upload and download speeds.
>>>
>>> I agree, there's no reason why they won't both work at the same time
>>> (remembering, of course, that you'll be sharing 1GB with up to a dozen
>>> or so neighbours, so it depends what they are doing at the same time).
>>>
>>>>> Actual price £59 a month, increasing at
>>>>> inflation + 3.5%, but still good value if it really is 600/600.
>>>>
>>>> Fixed at £26/month for 18 months. The chances are that a similar deal with
>>>> be offered at the expiry of the 18 months contract.
>>>
>>> But not for existing customers.
>>
>> My successive fibre contracts have each been an improvement (higher speeds
>> or lower cost),
>
> When we discover who that is, we can see if they have these commonplace
> "half price for 12/18/24 month" deals, and whether they let existing
> customers roll over to whatever their new introductory offer is.

They do. When my last contract ran out, they offered a couple of perfectly
reasonable renewal options for higher speed deals, but I checked their
latest 'new customer' offers, and said I'd prefer one of those (a slightly
cheaper version of my current deal). They instantly agreed.

>
> However, I suspect we may find it's something else.

Feel free to suspect whatever you like. But you'll be wrong.

>
>> and prices are fixed for the duration of the contract.
>
> Again, almost no-one guarantees that prices won't rise by at least
> inflation, after the minimum contract period.

They do. They guarantee no price rises during the duration of the contract
(not just the initial contract). And, subsequently, there's no requirement
to take out a new contract, though it's financially advantageous to do so.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 05:58:35 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 04:58 UTC

In message <t5h9mo$e9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:50 on Wed, 11 May
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/05/2022 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t5gj8l$o73$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:51 on Wed, 11 May
>>2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
>>>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with
>>>>>>>no  mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or
>>>>>>>whatever but  what about during a power cut?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>>>>profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced
>>>>>>or paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a
>>>>>>monopolist can get away with.
>>
>>>>  They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>>>>regulator to cope with?
>>>>
>>>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of
>>>>>the  Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per
>>>>>year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>>
>>>>  It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they
>>>>last?  Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone
>>>>replacing  something) to a couple of minutes.
>>>
>>> Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
>>>(annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them). We
>>>were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
>>>Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will
>>>last that long.
>> The storm in the Highlands was an exceptional event. In 50yrs of
>>adulthood, I've only ever been cut off from power twice, for more
>> than a couple of days because of storms, and that was before we
>> were joined at the hip to our IT equipment, and in semi-rural areas
>>(where fallen trees were the issue).
>
>Strangely enough, most power cuts here are not trees falling (very few
>trees in Shetland) but by fire.

What's bursting into flames? Overloaded step-down transformers, or
something else.

The last power cut I had which was for more a few minutes was caused
by the County Council's PFI contractor, Balfour Beatty, digging a hole
in the pavement to install a low-energy streetlight [the whole county
is being converted] and accidentally hitting the 240V household
distribution cable.

The streetlights themselves run off a much lower capacity daisy-chained
cable, and much of the BB project involves replacing that, because many
of the streetlights (but not that particular one) are sited differently
to the old ones (the new ones not just being dimmable LEDs, but fewer of
them).

OT: Their "approximately 46% energy saving" sounds plausible if
glaringly false precision, but the 4.5k tonnes of CO2 saved a year
doesn't sound like it's taking into account the carbon footprint of
the extensive civil engineering required. That's only a thousand
car's worth, or a thousand households, and for a county with a
population of 650k spread over 1,100 square miles.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:03:17 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:03 UTC

In message <t5gr6q$2e3$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:22 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>>> speed.
>>
>> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>>
>>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>>
>>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>>
>> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.

>Actually you are.

No I'm not, my telco isn't BT.

>Since you are being nit picky

I'm afraid people like Zen, Sky and EE (none of them either) will be
turning their grave at the idea it's simply nit-picking.

Plusnet (who I *used* to be with) is BT owned though.

>I’ll do the same. OpenReach is wholly owned by BT.

Separately regulated.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:19:12 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:19 UTC

In message <t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:37 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>
>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>
>>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the largest of the
>>> altnets and set to be the third biggest network behind OpenReach and Virgin
>>> Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>>
>>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>>
>>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying an asymmetric
>>> FTTP product.
>>
>> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
>> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
>> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
>> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
>> major exercise!).
>
>Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
>electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
>provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
>fibre.

Openreach are providing the transport layer, but the resellers decide
how to configure it.

So, for example, Zen will have decided on that 900/100 mix, other OR
resellers like Vodafone have chosen 500/75.

>CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural areas.

What's their rationale for offering service in North Walsham?
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:41:49 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:41 UTC

In message <t5gs6q$9rd$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:36:26 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t58mm1$joe$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:13:05 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart
>>>>>>>>>> your bare hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit
>>>>>>>>or cabinet safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken
>>>>>>>>is if someone messes about with it. The only exception would be
>>>>>>>>overhead wires from poles to houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the
>>>>>>>copper local loop has something but not too much with its
>>>>>>>impending replacement with fibre. If you are OpenReach with
>>>>>>>copper that can at best supply 80 Mbit/sec down and 20 up, and
>>>>>>>your competitors come along with fibre that can manage an order
>>>>>>>of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>>>average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive in the market place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>>
>>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>
>>> What upload speeds do you get?
>>
>> I listed them earlier, but two of the speed tests say I'm getting 47Mbps
>> of the theoretical maximum of 50Mbps.
>>
>> In fact they are so consistent about that (while giving different
>> download speeds) I'm inclined to think it's 100% of the theoretical
>> maximum, and "50" is just some marketing person rounding up "47".
>
>There’s a difference between sync speed and data throughput speed -
>protocol overheads. Marketing will sell the former, speed tests will
>measure the latter.

I don't think the marketing people get involved with sync-speeds any
more. My modem/router doesn't even report what it is. Having checked my
provider's marketing material just now, they are selling "45Mbps"
upload, so I'm even more convinced that the 45/47/50 thing is just
people rounding the numbers differently.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:44:52 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:44 UTC

In message <t5grvn$8b0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:32:39 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t58krv$5jv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:07 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart
>>>>>>>>>> your bare hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit
>>>>>>>>or cabinet safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken
>>>>>>>>is if someone messes about with it. The only exception would be
>>>>>>>>overhead wires from poles to houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the
>>>>>>>copper local loop has something but not too much with its
>>>>>>>impending replacement with fibre. If you are OpenReach with
>>>>>>>copper that can at best supply 80 Mbit/sec down and 20 up, and
>>>>>>>your competitors come along with fibre that can manage an order
>>>>>>>of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>>>average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive in the market place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>>
>>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I'd have preferred FTTP, but Openreach haven't done that in my
>>>> street yet. And with the "end of copper" deadline heading for the long
>>>> grass, I decided I didn't want to wait.
>>>>
>>>>>> But who are Openreach's competitors most of the country? Virgin's
>>>>>> precursors gave up extending their network 20yrs ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of local FTTP competitors, but I'm not sure if there
>>>>> are any national ones.
>>>>
>>>> Are those FTTP competitors using their own networks, dug by them through
>>>> the streets; or are they Piggy-backing Openreach's FTTP? In a sense LLU,
>>>> but in this case the local [all the way back to wherever Openreach's
>>>> head end is] loop is fibre, not copper.
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no Virgin here, and actually only two LLU.
>>>
>>> Read up on CityFibres plans and financing. They are digging round here and
>>> intend to (and nearby are) offer service in the same streets as Virgin
>>> Media and OpenReach. They aren’t the only ones going for the suburban
>>> market.
>>>
>>> https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network
>>
>> Interesting, if somewhat spotty, network map there. With some clusters.
>> They say they have their own exchanges, and there's obviously one
>> in/near Crawley. I wonder what's so special about North Walsham (near
>> Norwich)... other than maybe the Bacton Gas Terminal.
>>
>>> CF lay their own fibre, mainly in their own ducts (purple pipes) but
>>> sometime seem to use existing OR ducts into the house. They have their own
>>> head end “exchanges”. Unlike OR’s FTTP, CF offer symmetric up and down
>>> speeds up to 1 GBit/sec. It’s a wholesale network and you can
>>>choose from a
>>> number of retail provides. Vodafone and Zen seem to be the main players at
>>> the moment.
>>>
>>> Your high speed FTTC connection only works because you are very near to
>>> your cabinet, so you are lucky.
>>
>> I'm not *that* close for a built-up area.
>>
>>> It’s nothing to do with OR trying harder.
>>
>> It is, because they bothered to equip the cabinet with G-Fast.
>>
>> Ironically, people living further from the exchange here *can* get FTTP!
>> That's because ...
>>
>>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>>> speed.
>>
>> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>>
>>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>>
>>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>>
>> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
>>
>>> to alter the speed frequencies of the connection. This change within
>>> the frequencies increases the speed through the copper cable which
>>> results in a more reliable broadband with ultrafast speeds.
>>
>> As I usually put it, each advance in the speed of ADSL is basically by
>> SHOUTING LOUDER down the copper, and some better modem silicon, just
>> like we progressed from 2.4K to 14.4k (via 9.6K) dial-up over a
>> relatively short period.
>>
>Well you’d be putting it wrong if you think it is to do with shouting
>louder. By that I assume you mean increasing the amplitude of the signals.

The original concerns with the 2Mbps ADSL was that crosstalk within the
cable bundles would be an issue, also RFI with other services due to the
dropwires etc become aerials. So the amplitude was limited.

>It’s actually achieved by increasing the number of subcarrier frequencies
>used:
>
>“It encodes digital data for transmission over copper wires. The only
>difference is that it uses a wider range of frequencies, ADSL1 is 1.1MHz,
>ADSL2+ is 2.2MHz, VDSL as deployed by BT is 17MHz, and G.Fast goes over
>100MHz.”
>
>Those higher frequencies get attenuated earlier by increasing line length,
>hence the very limited range of gfast between your street cabinet and your
>house.
>
>From what I’ve read OpenReach have stopped installing new gfast plant
>equipment in favour of their newfound enthusiasm for proper fibre FTTP.

G-Fast was a temporary thing to provide up to 300Mbps on copper using
mainly the existing infrastructure (all that needed adding was some
equipment in the street cabinets, and being a bit pickier about where in
the house they would terminate the dropwire).


Click here to read the complete article
Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:47:04 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:47 UTC

In message <t5i4ae$29d$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:01:02 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5gj0j$itg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:59:31 on Wed, 11 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t5e1u4$n5$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:48 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/05/2022 07:59, Ken wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 07:37:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9
>>>>>>>>May 2022,
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up
>>>>>>>>>and down,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my
>>>>>>>>curiosity.
>>>>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My local provider, Gigaclear, is curremtly offering 600/600 for
>>>>>>> £26/month.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.gigaclear.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Upload/download speed", so Marketing may have added the upload to the
>>>>>> download or similar deception.
>>>>>
>>>>> It says those are the average upload and download speeds.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, there's no reason why they won't both work at the same time
>>>> (remembering, of course, that you'll be sharing 1GB with up to a dozen
>>>> or so neighbours, so it depends what they are doing at the same time).
>>>>
>>>>>> Actual price £59 a month, increasing at
>>>>>> inflation + 3.5%, but still good value if it really is 600/600.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fixed at £26/month for 18 months. The chances are that a similar
>>>>>deal with
>>>>> be offered at the expiry of the 18 months contract.
>>>>
>>>> But not for existing customers.
>>>
>>> My successive fibre contracts have each been an improvement (higher speeds
>>> or lower cost),
>>
>> When we discover who that is, we can see if they have these commonplace
>> "half price for 12/18/24 month" deals, and whether they let existing
>> customers roll over to whatever their new introductory offer is.
>
>They do. When my last contract ran out, they offered a couple of perfectly
>reasonable renewal options for higher speed deals, but I checked their
>latest 'new customer' offers, and said I'd prefer one of those (a slightly
>cheaper version of my current deal). They instantly agreed.
>
>> However, I suspect we may find it's something else.
>
>Feel free to suspect whatever you like. But you'll be wrong.
>
>>> and prices are fixed for the duration of the contract.
>>
>> Again, almost no-one guarantees that prices won't rise by at least
>> inflation, after the minimum contract period.
>
>They do. They guarantee no price rises during the duration of the contract
>(not just the initial contract). And, subsequently, there's no requirement
>to take out a new contract, though it's financially advantageous to do so.

I look forward to confirming all this, once we know who the generous
supplier you chose is revealed. [Why the big secret?]
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
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Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 05:55:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 12 May 2022 05:55 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5gr6q$2e3$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:22 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>>>> speed.
>>>
>>> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>>>
>>>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>>>
>>>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>>>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>>>
>>> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
>
>> Actually you are.
>
> No I'm not, my telco isn't BT.
>
>> Since you are being nit picky
>
> I'm afraid people like Zen, Sky and EE (none of them either) will be
> turning their grave at the idea it's simply nit-picking.
>
> Plusnet (who I *used* to be with) is BT owned though.
>
>> I’ll do the same. OpenReach is wholly owned by BT.
>
> Separately regulated.

EE is also wholly owned by BT.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
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Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:05:56 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 12 May 2022 06:05 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:37 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>
>>>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the largest of the
>>>> altnets and set to be the third biggest network behind OpenReach and Virgin
>>>> Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>>>
>>>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>>>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>>>
>>>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying an asymmetric
>>>> FTTP product.
>>>
>>> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
>>> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
>>> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
>>> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
>>> major exercise!).
>>
>> Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
>> electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
>> provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
>> fibre.
>
> Openreach are providing the transport layer, but the resellers decide
> how to configure it.
>
> So, for example, Zen will have decided on that 900/100 mix, other OR
> resellers like Vodafone have chosen 500/75.
>
>> CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural areas.
>
> What's their rationale for offering service in North Walsham?

But you are spectacularly missing the point. The ISPs are unable to offer
symmetric connections over OpenReach FTTP infrastructure because that
infrastructure is unable to support it. You simply can’t get 900/900
service over OR supplied infrastructure. OR are deploying outdated endpoint
electronics.

I’ve no information on why CityFibre are deploying in North Waltham. My
guess is some small outfit was initially involved, which then got purchased
by CF. CF seems to have purchased a number of smaller altnets. Perhaps a
bit of a reply of the cable TV rollout.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5i93a$rau$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 06:22:34 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 12 May 2022 06:22 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5grvn$8b0$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:32:39 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t58krv$5jv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:07 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <3mff7hl713e52uahoanc5ie6hc9686lc6v@4ax.com>, at 14:00:55 on
>>>>> Sun, 8 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 13:19:58 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t56fqb$ni3$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:39 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:05 +0100
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <28ia7hltm2uf8ri8aakvg2qfr5uhm0gs4v@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 17:15:18 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fatter one along the street) are far more robust than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why wouldn't it be?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because in Muttley-world it wasn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not try and tear some standard copper phone cable apart
>>>>>>>>>>> your bare hands then get back to me about how weak it is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And then try and cut it with a pair of scissors, or walk over it a few
>>>>>>>>>> times in heavy boots; then try the same with a typical power cable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its not going to be cut or walked over is it? Its in a conduit
>>>>>>>>> or cabinet safely tucked away. The only time it'll get broken
>>>>>>>>> is if someone messes about with it. The only exception would be
>>>>>>>>> overhead wires from poles to houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rewinding quite a bit on this thread, the reliability of the
>>>>>>>> copper local loop has something but not too much with its
>>>>>>>> impending replacement with fibre. If you are OpenReach with
>>>>>>>> copper that can at best supply 80 Mbit/sec down and 20 up, and
>>>>>>>> your competitors come along with fibre that can manage an order
>>>>>>>> of magnitude better at the same price, which one is the the
>>>>>>>> average customer going to buy? OR have to move to fibre to survive
>>>>>>>> in the market place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not true because if they try hard they can deliver 300Mbps on the
>>>>>>> copper (that's what I have at the moment), in the urban and semi-urban
>>>>>>> areas that might be the ones someone else would offer cable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that FTTC or FTTP?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's FTTC, and the final throw of the dice for copper-to-the-premises.
>>>>> Most resellers won't guarantee more than about 160Mbps, but I seem to be
>>>>> lucky in having towards the upper end of the 330Mbps theoretical limit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I'd have preferred FTTP, but Openreach haven't done that in my
>>>>> street yet. And with the "end of copper" deadline heading for the long
>>>>> grass, I decided I didn't want to wait.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But who are Openreach's competitors most of the country? Virgin's
>>>>>>> precursors gave up extending their network 20yrs ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are plenty of local FTTP competitors, but I'm not sure if there
>>>>>> are any national ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are those FTTP competitors using their own networks, dug by them through
>>>>> the streets; or are they Piggy-backing Openreach's FTTP? In a sense LLU,
>>>>> but in this case the local [all the way back to wherever Openreach's
>>>>> head end is] loop is fibre, not copper.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no Virgin here, and actually only two LLU.
>>>>
>>>> Read up on CityFibres plans and financing. They are digging round here and
>>>> intend to (and nearby are) offer service in the same streets as Virgin
>>>> Media and OpenReach. They aren’t the only ones going for the suburban
>>>> market.
>>>>
>>>> https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network
>>>
>>> Interesting, if somewhat spotty, network map there. With some clusters.
>>> They say they have their own exchanges, and there's obviously one
>>> in/near Crawley. I wonder what's so special about North Walsham (near
>>> Norwich)... other than maybe the Bacton Gas Terminal.
>>>
>>>> CF lay their own fibre, mainly in their own ducts (purple pipes) but
>>>> sometime seem to use existing OR ducts into the house. They have their own
>>>> head end “exchanges”. Unlike OR’s FTTP, CF offer symmetric up and down
>>>> speeds up to 1 GBit/sec. It’s a wholesale network and you can
>>>> choose from a
>>>> number of retail provides. Vodafone and Zen seem to be the main players at
>>>> the moment.
>>>>
>>>> Your high speed FTTC connection only works because you are very near to
>>>> your cabinet, so you are lucky.
>>>
>>> I'm not *that* close for a built-up area.
>>>
>>>> It’s nothing to do with OR trying harder.
>>>
>>> It is, because they bothered to equip the cabinet with G-Fast.
>>>
>>> Ironically, people living further from the exchange here *can* get FTTP!
>>> That's because ...
>>>
>>>> Most FTTC customers aren’t even close enough to get the basic 80 Mbit/sec
>>>> speed.
>>>
>>> ...they weren't getting much joy from even the 12Mbps ADSL.
>>>
>>>> https://cloudandfibre.co.uk/what-is-gfast/
>>>>
>>>> “GFast works in a very similar way to FTTC but extra specialised equipment
>>>> is fitted to the BT cabinet
>>>
>>> It's an Openreach cabinet. I'm not getting service from BT.
>>>
>>>> to alter the speed frequencies of the connection. This change within
>>>> the frequencies increases the speed through the copper cable which
>>>> results in a more reliable broadband with ultrafast speeds.
>>>
>>> As I usually put it, each advance in the speed of ADSL is basically by
>>> SHOUTING LOUDER down the copper, and some better modem silicon, just
>>> like we progressed from 2.4K to 14.4k (via 9.6K) dial-up over a
>>> relatively short period.
>>>
>> Well you’d be putting it wrong if you think it is to do with shouting
>> louder. By that I assume you mean increasing the amplitude of the signals.
>
> The original concerns with the 2Mbps ADSL was that crosstalk within the
> cable bundles would be an issue, also RFI with other services due to the
> dropwires etc become aerials. So the amplitude was limited.
>
>> It’s actually achieved by increasing the number of subcarrier frequencies
>> used:
>>
>> “It encodes digital data for transmission over copper wires. The only
>> difference is that it uses a wider range of frequencies, ADSL1 is 1.1MHz,
>> ADSL2+ is 2.2MHz, VDSL as deployed by BT is 17MHz, and G.Fast goes over
>> 100MHz.”
>>
>> Those higher frequencies get attenuated earlier by increasing line length,
>> hence the very limited range of gfast between your street cabinet and your
>> house.
>>
>> From what I’ve read OpenReach have stopped installing new gfast plant
>> equipment in favour of their newfound enthusiasm for proper fibre FTTP.
>
> G-Fast was a temporary thing to provide up to 300Mbps on copper using
> mainly the existing infrastructure (all that needed adding was some
> equipment in the street cabinets, and being a bit pickier about where in
> the house they would terminate the dropwire).
>
> FTTP is a separate initiative, to replace *all* the "copper" with fibre,
> and leap-frogs G-Fast, which I think you are correct in saying they
> aren't rolling out to additional street cabinets any more.
>
> Apparently by the time they stopped the rollout they had reached 2.8m
> premises, of which about a tenth had taken the service. At the same date
> (Sept 2021) 5.2m premises were reachable by FTTP, of which a fifth had
> taken the service.
>
> I'd have preferred to get FTTP than G-fast, but in their infinite wisdom
> OR have not enabled my Street cabinet/Telegraph pole yet (and have no
> projected date to do so, other than the portmanteau 2025), despite other
> Street cabinets/Telegraph poles on the same exchange and within a mile
> of me, having FTTP. I think they are concentrating on new-build estates,
> of which there are several nearby, and people living where FTTC is only
> giving low tens of Mbps.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5i9qd$uik$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 07:34:52 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Thu, 12 May 2022 06:34 UTC

On 12/05/2022 05:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t5h9mo$e9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:50 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/05/2022 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t5gj8l$o73$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:51 on Wed, 11 May
>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with
>>>>>>>> no  mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or
>>>>>>>> whatever  but  what about during a power cut?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>>>>> profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced
>>>>>>> or  paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a
>>>>>>> monopolist  can get away with.
>>>
>>>>>  They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>>>>> regulator to cope with?
>>>>>
>>>>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of
>>>>>> the  Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>>>
>>>>>  It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they
>>>>> last?  Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone
>>>>> replacing  something) to a couple of minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
>>>> (annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them). We
>>>> were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
>>>> Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will
>>>> last that long.
>>>  The storm in the Highlands was an exceptional event. In 50yrs of
>>> adulthood, I've only ever been cut off from power twice, for more
>>> than a couple of days because of storms, and that was before we
>>> were joined at the hip to our IT equipment, and in semi-rural areas
>>> (where fallen trees were the issue).
>>
>> Strangely enough, most power cuts here are not trees falling (very few
>> trees in Shetland) but by fire.
>
> What's bursting into flames? Overloaded step-down transformers, or
> something else.
>

You've not heard of Up=Helly-Aa?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: ken...@birchanger.com (Ken)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Ken - Thu, 12 May 2022 07:19 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:56:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <d83k7htivq1nqfr3v53lvslnach6e85ago@4ax.com>, at 07:59:12 on
>Tue, 10 May 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 10 May 2022 07:37:26 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>
>>>>Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>
>>>Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>
>>My local provider, Gigaclear, is curremtly offering 600/600 for
>>£26/month.
>>
>>https://www.gigaclear.com/
>
>That's a very good price[1]. Also considering their 900/900 (which is
>essentially the same product) is £46/month.
>
>I don't think it comes with any telephony (yes, I know, many people
>don't want that any more) but BT Broadband does. The tide is turning,
>however, and my (Openreach, but not BT] ADSL package includes telephony,
>but they don't quote a separate figure for the "line rental" like they
>used to. It's all-inclusive.
>
>I presume you are part of SuperfastEssex, which I was looking forward to
>reading about, except their website is down at the moment. Cont'd
>cobblers/shoes.

Gigaclear has done a lot of work in this area for Superfast Essex, if
that's the name for the Government rural superfast broadband
initiative around here, but our village already had decent FTTC.
Gigaclear has made use of the infrastructure they have put in place by
laying fiber in our village as 'commercial infill'.
>
>[1] Albeit minimum 18 month contract, then it goes up to £59/month. I
> detect a subsidy here.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<AzjVqSthtMfiFAYH@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 09:54:57 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 08:54 UTC

In message <xk9pPVnY9JfiFAPX@perry.uk>, at 06:47:04 on Thu, 12 May 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:

>>>> My successive fibre contracts have each been an improvement (higher speeds
>>>> or lower cost),
>>>
>>> When we discover who that is, we can see if they have these commonplace
>>> "half price for 12/18/24 month" deals, and whether they let existing
>>> customers roll over to whatever their new introductory offer is.
>>
>>They do. When my last contract ran out, they offered a couple of perfectly
>>reasonable renewal options for higher speed deals, but I checked their
>>latest 'new customer' offers, and said I'd prefer one of those (a slightly
>>cheaper version of my current deal). They instantly agreed.
>>
>>> However, I suspect we may find it's something else.
>>
>>Feel free to suspect whatever you like. But you'll be wrong.
>>
>>>> and prices are fixed for the duration of the contract.
>>>
>>> Again, almost no-one guarantees that prices won't rise by at least
>>> inflation, after the minimum contract period.
>>
>>They do. They guarantee no price rises during the duration of the contract
>>(not just the initial contract). And, subsequently, there's no requirement
>>to take out a new contract, though it's financially advantageous to do so.
>
>I look forward to confirming all this, once we know who the generous
>supplier you chose is revealed. [Why the big secret?]

I'll have stab at Community Fibre, who have 500/500 on special offer at
£27 (down from £37.50), and £42.50 'after initial contract'. And:

"Any service taken from Community Fibre on and after the 29th of
December 2021 will be subject on or after 1st April every year from
April 2023 by the Consumer Price Index rate of inflation published
in January of that year plus 2.9%.

So maybe it isn't them, as you say its fixed in perpetuity.

"Available in 29 London Boroughs": **Barnet, Brent**, Bexley, Bromley,
Camden, City of London, Croydon, Ealing, Enfield, Greenwich, Hackney,
Hammersmith and Fulham, Harrow, Hillingdon, Hounslow, Islington,
Kensington and Chelsea, Kingston upon Thames, Lambeth, Lewisham,
Merton, Newham, Richmond upon Thames, Southwark, Sutton, Tower
Hamlets, Waltham Forest, Wandsworth and Westminster.

** Although not at either of the postcodes I picked at random in those
boroughs.

No landline (fairly obviously) but some form of VoIP. Fairly
restricted, which leads me to think they haven't go around to
negotiating interconnect agreements internationally [I wonder
if inbound international calls are accepted]:

"Our Phone Service only allows calls to UK landline numbers (numbers
starting with 01,02,03,07 excluding Channel Islands), UK mobile
numbers, UK Freephone numbers and the emergency services. You will
need an alternative means to call any other phone number. Our Phone
Service will not work if there is a power cut or the Broadband
Service fails.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<eiNCOZuYBNfiFALS@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 10:16:08 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 09:16 UTC

In message <t5i93a$rau$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:22:34 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> From what I’ve read OpenReach have stopped installing new gfast plant
>>> equipment in favour of their newfound enthusiasm for proper fibre FTTP.
>>
>> G-Fast was a temporary thing to provide up to 300Mbps on copper using
>> mainly the existing infrastructure (all that needed adding was some
>> equipment in the street cabinets, and being a bit pickier about where in
>> the house they would terminate the dropwire).
>>
>> FTTP is a separate initiative, to replace *all* the "copper" with fibre,
>> and leap-frogs G-Fast, which I think you are correct in saying they
>> aren't rolling out to additional street cabinets any more.
>>
>> Apparently by the time they stopped the rollout they had reached 2.8m
>> premises, of which about a tenth had taken the service. At the same date
>> (Sept 2021) 5.2m premises were reachable by FTTP, of which a fifth had
>> taken the service.
>>
>> I'd have preferred to get FTTP than G-fast, but in their infinite wisdom
>> OR have not enabled my Street cabinet/Telegraph pole yet (and have no
>> projected date to do so, other than the portmanteau 2025), despite other
>> Street cabinets/Telegraph poles on the same exchange and within a mile
>> of me, having FTTP. I think they are concentrating on new-build estates,
>> of which there are several nearby, and people living where FTTC is only
>> giving low tens of Mbps.
>
>I’m afraid you are in asset sweating territory,

And why not, if those assets exist. You can't connect up the entire
country to FTTP overnight.

>which is BT/OR’s long term
>problem. CItyFibre aren’t just in the game for domestic customers.

Nor just for Cities. (And they haven't touched Manchester, Birmingham or
London yet).

>Their infrastructure will connect up all those millimetre band 5G cells
>that will be deployed at high density in urban areas, plus all sorts of
>other things like traffic cameras, traffic lights, business premises
>etc etc. It’s been fashionable for telcos to not want to end up being
>“dumb pipes” hence stupidities such as BT Sport, but CF appear to
>have a strategy of doing exactly that, but providing high quality
>reasonably priced dumb pipes.

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 10:49:01 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 09:49 UTC

In message <t5i844$ltb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:05:56 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:37 on Wed, 11 May
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the largest of the
>>>>> altnets and set to be the third biggest network behind OpenReach
>>>>>and Virgin
>>>>> Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>>>>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying an
>>>>>asymmetric
>>>>> FTTP product.
>>>>
>>>> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
>>>> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
>>>> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
>>>> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
>>>> major exercise!).
>>>
>>> Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
>>> electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
>>> provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
>>> fibre.
>>
>> Openreach are providing the transport layer, but the resellers decide
>> how to configure it.
>>
>> So, for example, Zen will have decided on that 900/100 mix, other OR
>> resellers like Vodafone have chosen 500/75.
>>
>>> CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural areas.
>>
>> What's their rationale for offering service in North Walsham?
>
>But you are spectacularly missing the point.

My point was, why is CITYfibre offering service in North Walsham?

>The ISPs are unable to offer
>symmetric connections over OpenReach FTTP infrastructure because that
>infrastructure is unable to support it. You simply can’t get 900/900
>service over OR supplied infrastructure. OR are deploying outdated endpoint
>electronics.

At the head-end? The splitters are passive, we've been assured over and
over again. In any event, what use do most premises have for more than
100Mbps upload? There's talk of people doing backups etc, but they can
be done in the background, or middle of the night, if 100Mbps really is
to slow for those few minutes in the middle of the day.

I'd rather have something close to a guaranteed 100Mbps, than have to
share 900Mbps with all my neighbours.

>I’ve no information on why CityFibre are deploying in North Waltham. My
>guess is some small outfit was initially involved, which then got purchased
>by CF. CF seems to have purchased a number of smaller altnets. Perhaps a
>bit of a reply of the cable TV rollout.

Would these be bankrupt rural initiatives perhaps?
--
Roland Perry

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