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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

SubjectAuthor
* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerChristopher A. Lee
|+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
|||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRecliner
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGB
||||  |||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraham Nye
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  ||  +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  ||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  |||||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||| `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||   |||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   ||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andKen
||||  |||   |||   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCertes
||||  |||   |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||   |   `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    ||||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||| `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andColinR
||||  |||    ||||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    ||||     +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||     | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    ||||     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    ||||         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andAnna Noyd-Dryver
||||  |||    ||||          +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          |+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChris J Dixon
||||  |||    ||||          |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andGraeme Wall
||||  |||    ||||          | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRolf Mantel
||||  |||    ||||          `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |||`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  |||    ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    || `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andtony sayer
||||  |||    |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    | `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |   +- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |     `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |      `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |       `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |        `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |         `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |          `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |           `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |            `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |             `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    |              | |`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |              | `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |              `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andSam Wilson
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               || `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               ||  `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               ||   `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               ||    `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andRoland Perry
||||  |||    |               |+* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
||||  |||    |               |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMarland
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andChristopher A. Lee
||||  |||    |               +* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andTweed
||||  |||    |               `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andCharles Ellson
||||  |||    `* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNigel Emery
||||  ||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNobody
||||  |`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andNY
||||  `- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andMuttley
|||+- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
|||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and LatimerCharles Ellson
||`* London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andArthur Figgis
|`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube nearAnna Noyd-Dryver
`- London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont andhounslow3@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5iobk$1cu6$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29347&group=uk.railway#29347

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:00 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43 UTC

On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:38:37 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 10.05.2022 um 17:57 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 17:30:51 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:39:22 +0200
>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am 06.05.2022 um 17:44 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>physically
>>>
>>>>>>>>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
>>>>>>> connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
>>>>>>> the same routers from one second to the next.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than marketdroid terminology for the internet.
>>>>>> The latter sounds techy and scary, the former warm and fluffy and doesn't
>
>>>>>> scare off the dimwit techno illiterates in the boardroom.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would've thought that "cloud" implies "using comuputing resources over
>>>>> the internet" as opposed to "data exchange over the interent". This
>>>>> would palce "SETI@Home" as the beginnings of cloud computing.
>>>>
>>>> Computing resources are processing and storage. End. These were both done
>>>> remotely for decades before "Cloud" came along as a term. RPC and NFS were
>>>> both developed in the 80s by Sun for exactly this purpose.
>>>
>>> Both of those were developed for low-latency, workgroup-style contexts -
>>> that was Sun’s market: replace your shared minicomputer or small mainframe
>
>>> with a network of workstations and fileserver(s). It was only in the late
>>> 90s and early 2000s that NFS was developed (with a lot of work outside Sun)
>>> to make it suitable for wider area deployment.
>>
>> Maybe so. Doesn't detract from my point - ie that "cloud" is just marketing
>> BS to describe functionality thats been around for decades.
>
>Just in the way "Smartphone" was just marketing BS for "PDA with mobile
>internet": functionality that had been around before the Iphone.

And?
>
>Does the phrase "emergent phemonemnon" ring a bell?

No, not in this case.

>You need the ingredients
>1) using computing resources over the internet
>2) using data exchange over the internet
>3) Computing rsource contracts where you pay by usage

So stuff thats been around since the 80s then.

>4) Computing resource providers with massive upscale/downscale functionality

Nope, not necessary for Cloud.

>5) Docker technology enabling you to sclone a system within milliseconds

Ditto.

>6) massively parallel service implementations that enable you to scale
>out as soon as the estimated computing time exceeds a second

Ditto.

>=> Cloud services where the user does not need to think about peak load.
> Rather than investing into your own IT center you buy in at AWS,
>halving the staff cost of your IT department, not having to pay millions
>for a server that handles your once-a-year peak loads.

Ditto.

Cloud is just another name for RPC and data storage.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5iol5$462$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29348&group=uk.railway#29348

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rai...@greystane.shetland.co.uk (ColinR)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 11:48:07 +0100
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 by: ColinR - Thu, 12 May 2022 10:48 UTC

On 12/05/2022 07:34, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 12/05/2022 05:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t5h9mo$e9f$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:50 on Wed, 11 May
>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/05/2022 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t5gj8l$o73$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:51 on Wed, 11 May
>>>> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11
>>>>>> May 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>>>>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties
>>>>>>>>> with no  mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or
>>>>>>>>> whatever  but  what about during a power cut?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>>>>>>> profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced
>>>>>>>> or  paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a
>>>>>>>> monopolist  can get away with.
>>>>
>>>>>>  They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
>>>>>> regulator to cope with?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge
>>>>>>> of the  Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per
>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>>>>
>>>>>>  It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they
>>>>>> last?  Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone
>>>>>> replacing  something) to a couple of minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last year about 12 outages here, ranging from a couple of minutes
>>>>> (annoying but not a major problem) to 10-12 hours (most of them).
>>>>> We were lucky, much better than those in parts of the Highlands /
>>>>> Aberdeenshire where it was 3 weeks or so - no battery back-up will
>>>>> last that long.
>>>>  The storm in the Highlands was an exceptional event. In 50yrs of
>>>> adulthood, I've only ever been cut off from power twice, for more
>>>> than a couple of days because of storms, and that was before we
>>>> were joined at the hip to our IT equipment, and in semi-rural areas
>>>> (where fallen trees were the issue).
>>>
>>> Strangely enough, most power cuts here are not trees falling (very
>>> few trees in Shetland) but by fire.
>>
>> What's bursting into flames? Overloaded step-down transformers, or
>> something else.
>>
>
> You've not heard of Up=Helly-Aa?
>
>

Not an obvious answer. Nowhere in Shetland is more than 3 miles from the
sea, most a lot closer. We get a lot of strong winds which pick up
saltwater from the sea.

Most power distribution is by overhead lines on wooden poles. Wires are
hung from insulators. In winter the salt laden air often deposits enough
salt on these insulators to allow flashovers, catching the wooden poles
alight. Hence many power cuts are caused by fire!!

--
Colin

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5iq7t$flm$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29350&group=uk.railway#29350

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: new...@hartig-mantel.de (Rolf Mantel)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:15:09 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Rolf Mantel - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:15 UTC

Am 12.05.2022 um 12:43 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:38:37 +0200
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 10.05.2022 um 17:57 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 17:30:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:39:22 +0200
>>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 06.05.2022 um 17:44 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>> physically
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
>>>>>>>> connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
>>>>>>>> the same routers from one second to the next.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than marketdroid terminology for the internet.
>>>>>>> The latter sounds techy and scary, the former warm and fluffy and doesn't
>>
>>>>>>> scare off the dimwit techno illiterates in the boardroom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would've thought that "cloud" implies "using comuputing resources over
>>>>>> the internet" as opposed to "data exchange over the interent". This
>>>>>> would palce "SETI@Home" as the beginnings of cloud computing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Computing resources are processing and storage. End. These were both done
>>>>> remotely for decades before "Cloud" came along as a term. RPC and NFS were
>>>>> both developed in the 80s by Sun for exactly this purpose.
>>>>
>>>> Both of those were developed for low-latency, workgroup-style contexts -
>>>> that was Sun’s market: replace your shared minicomputer or small mainframe
>>
>>>> with a network of workstations and fileserver(s). It was only in the late
>>>> 90s and early 2000s that NFS was developed (with a lot of work outside Sun)
>>>> to make it suitable for wider area deployment.
>>>
>>> Maybe so. Doesn't detract from my point - ie that "cloud" is just marketing
>>> BS to describe functionality thats been around for decades.
>>
>> Just in the way "Smartphone" was just marketing BS for "PDA with mobile
>> internet": functionality that had been around before the Iphone.
>
> And?
>>
>> Does the phrase "emergent phemonemnon" ring a bell?
>
> No, not in this case.
>
>> You need the ingredients
>> 1) using computing resources over the internet
>> 2) using data exchange over the internet
>> 3) Computing rsource contracts where you pay by usage
>
> So stuff thats been around since the 80s then.
>
>> 4) Computing resource providers with massive upscale/downscale functionality
>
> Nope, not necessary for Cloud.
>
>> 5) Docker technology enabling you to sclone a system within milliseconds
>
> Ditto.
>
>> 6) massively parallel service implementations that enable you to scale
>> out as soon as the estimated computing time exceeds a second
>
> Ditto.
>
>
>> => Cloud services where the user does not need to think about peak load.
>> Rather than investing into your own IT center you buy in at AWS,
>> halving the staff cost of your IT department, not having to pay millions
>> for a server that handles your once-a-year peak loads.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Cloud is just another name for RPC and data storage.

I can still use my smartphone just like the PDA from 2005, does that
mean there's nothing new? Whatsapp (as opposed to SMS and phone) does
bring new qualities even though it's "just internet".

In the Business-to-business sector, items 4 to 6 above are extremely
significant.
In 1990, the customer was renting servers to run his ERP system on, the
customer decided what size of CPU and hard drives were necessary.
In the 2000's, the customer was renting an ERP software provided and run
by the service provider, the service provider decided what size CPU and
hard drives were necessary.
Now, the service provider runs ERP software for 1,000 customers on the
same machine, CPU and hard drives are swapped in and out automatically
as needed.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:13:06 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:13 UTC

In message <t5am0l$d0f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:13:57 on Mon, 9 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:27:09 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t566eg$aje$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:44 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>>The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
>>>guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.
>>
>>Thirty years ago, they had to replace a junction box on the side of my
>>then house from which the phone line to my neighbour was daisy-chained.
>>As with all these other example, really flimsy wiring and
>>accident-waiting-to-happen IDC connectors.
>
>If you think copper is flimsy you must hate fibre.

Fibre is quite resilient by comparison.

Anyway, a picture this week: on the right a copper installation that's
lot its lid, with (it's difficult to see) potentially nine or ten
subscriber lines, and on the left a final 8-way splitter awaiting the
fitting of the individual premises fibres.

http://perry.co.uk/images/Copper-to-fibre.jpg
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:15:57 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:15 UTC

In message <t5alg2$4sr$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:05:06 on Mon, 9 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>The only exception would be overhead wires from poles to
>>> houses but I've never seen one break yet.
>>
>>Ours did. The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
>>guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.
>
>Poor you. As I've said, I've never seen one broken.

Maybe you equate "broken" with "snapped". But 'broken' also means
'completely inoperative'. I've had one of those too.

And speaking of being thick, did not pick up on the point that
drop-wires are deliberately much more robust than the wiring from the
top of the pole back to the cabinet and the exchange?
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:18:24 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:18 UTC

In message <t5ali6$5t8$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:06:14 on Mon, 9 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>My provider in rural Missouri, ran a telephone cable across the
>>ground, through the grass, to my apartment - and the landscapers were
>>forever breaking it when they cut the grass.
>
>You sure you live in the USA and not some banana republic?

I had one a bit like that, when I lived in the USA for a year. The phone
company buried the wires about an inch under the lawn, and left a few
small flags poked in, to alert the next twenty years worth of gardeners
to its presence.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 11:51:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:51 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5i844$ltb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:05:56 on Thu, 12 May
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:37 on Wed, 11 May
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up and down,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they don't.
>>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>>>>>>> We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for as little as £35.
>>>>>>> A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the largest of the
>>>>>> altnets and set to be the third biggest network behind OpenReach
>>>>>> and Virgin
>>>>>> Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>>>>>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying an
>>>>>> asymmetric
>>>>>> FTTP product.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
>>>>> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
>>>>> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
>>>>> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
>>>>> major exercise!).
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
>>>> electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
>>>> provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
>>>> fibre.
>>>
>>> Openreach are providing the transport layer, but the resellers decide
>>> how to configure it.
>>>
>>> So, for example, Zen will have decided on that 900/100 mix, other OR
>>> resellers like Vodafone have chosen 500/75.
>>>
>>>> CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural areas.
>>>
>>> What's their rationale for offering service in North Walsham?
>>
>> But you are spectacularly missing the point.
>
> My point was, why is CITYfibre offering service in North Walsham?
>
>> The ISPs are unable to offer
>> symmetric connections over OpenReach FTTP infrastructure because that
>> infrastructure is unable to support it. You simply can’t get 900/900
>> service over OR supplied infrastructure. OR are deploying outdated endpoint
>> electronics.
>
> At the head-end? The splitters are passive, we've been assured over and
> over again. In any event, what use do most premises have for more than
> 100Mbps upload? There's talk of people doing backups etc, but they can
> be done in the background, or middle of the night, if 100Mbps really is
> to slow for those few minutes in the middle of the day.
>
> I'd rather have something close to a guaranteed 100Mbps, than have to
> share 900Mbps with all my neighbours.
>
>> I’ve no information on why CityFibre are deploying in North Waltham. My
>> guess is some small outfit was initially involved, which then got purchased
>> by CF. CF seems to have purchased a number of smaller altnets. Perhaps a
>> bit of a reply of the cable TV rollout.
>
> Would these be bankrupt rural initiatives perhaps?

It’s the electronics at the customer end (ONT) that really define the
performance of the uplink speed. With OR they have a time domain
multiplexing system. I’m uncertain as to how CF and others improve on this,
but I believe part of the solution is to use more wavelengths.

You have to share your bandwidth with others somewhere between you and the
endpoint computer. Only a private circuit is uncontended. The reality is
there’s so much bandwidth available you never notice it. Most people have
little need for a high average speed, but being able to burst at 1GBit/sec
is very useful for things like file up/down loads. I’d much rather have a
contended 32:1 1Gbit/sec than a guaranteed 100 Mbit/sec.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:55 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5am0l$d0f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:13:57 on Mon, 9 May
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:27:09 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t566eg$aje$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:44 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
>>>> guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.
>>>
>>> Thirty years ago, they had to replace a junction box on the side of my
>>> then house from which the phone line to my neighbour was daisy-chained.
>>> As with all these other example, really flimsy wiring and
>>> accident-waiting-to-happen IDC connectors.
>>
>> If you think copper is flimsy you must hate fibre.
>
> Fibre is quite resilient by comparison.
>
> Anyway, a picture this week: on the right a copper installation that's
> lot its lid, with (it's difficult to see) potentially nine or ten
> subscriber lines, and on the left a final 8-way splitter awaiting the
> fitting of the individual premises fibres.
>
> http://perry.co.uk/images/Copper-to-fibre.jpg

Outdoor grade fibre is incredibly strong. I had some 8 core with plastic
“armour”. About 6mm in diameter. It completely resisted standard wire
cutters and then tin snips. Only a bit of hard work with a hacksaw cut
through it.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<w1g5b66tnPfiFAuo@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:13:33 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:13 UTC

In message <t5bd2u$1h04$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:47:42 on Mon, 9 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:07:20 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t5aloe$90b$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:09:34 on Mon, 9 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>Once again, you fail to distinguish between the cloud-services/cloud
>>>>storage, and the stuff which connects it all together.
>>>
>>>No I'm not. The internet would be meaningless without computers attached to
>>it.
>>
>>Indeed, but the original idea was point-to-point connections (even if
>>with diverse routing in between). Web servers being a box you could go
>>and look at, and browsers running on the box in front of you.
>
>Huh? Web servers didn't appear until the 90s, ~20 years after the Internet.

So what, if it make you happier say "ftp server".

>RPC and NFS were devised in the 80s and cover everything "cloud" does with
>detail differences.

They didn't give access to distributed services, mainly because *they*
hadn't been invented yet.

>>>But if you want to be pedantic then whats wrong with "remote host"?
>>
>>Because point to point (or sometimes called "end to end") services
>>[whether storage or computing] are *not* cloud services.
>
>Yes they are. The cloud can be 1 -> 1 or 1 -> N, its all hidden from the user.

Cloud services (as defined by those pesky marketing people you hate so
much) are always going to be 1 -> Many.

>>I can access files on an a single identifiable computer the other side
>>of the globe (via the Internet cloud), which is entirely different to
>>having my Google Photos spread redundantly across hundreds of servers of
>>which I know absolutely nothing, within the [Internet] cloud.
>
>Bollocks. Standard web servers can hive off requests to different child
>servers to retrieve data from multiply redundant sources. Google search has
>done the same since 2000. Hows that any different?

Hey, a friend of mine was a senior techie at Akamai, so I'm well aware
of the early [around the Millennium] implementations of spreading
content around. But that's cloud services, and my point was that in 1995
I was working for a content provider whose web server was a box in a
room you could go and kick, and people reading its contents were using 1
-> 1 connections.

>>What the Google cloud services does is grab my files (when I ask) from
>>wherever is most expeditious this millisecond (it may be different by
>>the time you've finished reading this).
>
>Thats just data retrieval. Just because you don't know where the data is is
>irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant to this discussion because it's what
differentiates cloud *storage* from single servers.

>Its hardly a new concept.

Define new. Above you seem be the 90's as "new".
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<kFt8Hd7aqPfiFAPX@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:16:26 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:16 UTC

In message <t5g1th$i90$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:45 on Wed, 11 May
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>  There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The
>>>>>>>>>>interviewee was very  difficult to understand because
>>>>>>>>>>roughly every fifth syllable was lost.  After struggling for
>>>>>>>>>>a while, the radio station called them back on a  landline
>>>>>>>>>>(something I've never heard them actually describe quite as  explicitly in the past).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but
>>>>>>>>>>didn't have the  dropouts, so a success. I can't support the
>>>>>>>>>> intermittent  connection was due to anything other than a
>>>>>>>>>>dodgy (<- their word) cloud  (their word was of course 'line').
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>>>>>>>> physically connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Line" implies a static point to point connection, and they way it's
>>>>>>>> used by radio presenters reinforces that. "We've lost the
>>>>>>>>line", "its a
>>>>>>>> dodgy line", "we will try to get the line back" are all harking
>>>>>>>>back to
>>>>>>>> technology of the last century.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
>>>>>>> the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wasn't aware that PSTN connections could change the copper they were
>>>>>> using, mid-call.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Copper?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's the thing they make most of the wires out of, back when they
>>>> installed the PSTN network.
>>>>
>>> I wasn't aware that you were stuck in the 19th century.

>> I'm not, and nor will Openreach be, for much longer. Ripping out the
>>copper. [Did Post Office Telephones even have a switched telephone
>>network in the 1890's?]

>> I'm pretty sure that manual telephone operators didn't pull plugs
>>out and then re-route the call a different way mid sentence, even in
>>the 1950's.
>
>They were known to pull the plugs out on vision circuits mid-sentence,
>notoriously on an interview with Harold Wilson back in the 1970s.

That would indeed be "losing the line". Having every fifth syllable
dropping out isn't a person (or even a machine) plugging and unplugging
cables every other second.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:18:25 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:18 UTC

In message <9moo7h1srrnm0fl41lg6qrbjedaah85du5@4ax.com>, at 02:46:15 on
Thu, 12 May 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>>>>>>>You haven't had a static point to point connection for certain since
>>>>>>>the first time the PSTN was used to provide a link back to a studio.
>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wasn't aware that PSTN connections could change the copper they were
>>>>>>using, mid-call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Copper?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, it's the thing they make most of the wires out of, back when they
>>>>installed the PSTN network.
>>>>
>>>I wasn't aware that you were stuck in the 19th century.
>>
>>I'm not, and nor will Openreach be, for much longer. Ripping out the
>>copper. [Did Post Office Telephones even have a switched telephone
>>network in the 1890's?]
>>
>The National Telephone Company did. It was switched by lots of ladies
>putting plugs in and out. The GPO were also already involved in
>telephones but for practical purposes were only involved in having
>their own network (distinct from linking lots of local ones) when the
>NTC was nationalised in 1912 after a Tory government started the
>process in 1905.
>
>>I'm pretty sure that manual telephone operators didn't pull plugs out
>>and then re-route the call a different way mid sentence, even in the
>>1950's.
>>
>Ah, now you are returning to a different part of the thread rather
>than the bit where you introduced copper into a process involving
>other elements.

Oh I give up. yes some of the wires are made of aluminium. Happy now?

ps Did the National Telephone Company use much aluminium wiring.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:20:00 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:20 UTC

In message <t5ba04$7g1$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:55:00 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5aobq$qbf$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:54:02 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 18:03:44 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t53foa$lbk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:44:10 on Fri, 6 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>>>>>>>>> physically
>>>>>>>>>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
>>>>>>>> connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
>>>>>>>> the same routers from one second to the next.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than marketdroid terminology for the internet.
>>>>>>> The latter sounds techy and scary, the former warm and fluffy
>>>>>>>and doesn't
>>>>>>> scare off the dimwit techno illiterates in the boardroom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once again, you fail to distinguish between the cloud-services/cloud
>>>>>> storage, and the stuff which connects it all together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, I will repeat, was never referred to as a cloud until cloud
>>>>>services
>>>>> came along.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. When I was putting together X.25 systems a long, long time ago we
>>>> always used a cloud symbol in documents and informally called the X.25
>>>> network the cloud. I'd almost forgotten that.
>>>
>>> Yes, we always drew switched networks, or anything else where the topology
>>> was unknown or irrelevant, as a cloud, but any reference to the name was
>>> always incidental and informal. I’m pretty sure you won’t find
>>>any formal
>>> documentation referring to the network as a/the cloud except in passing.
>>
>> Could you bracket that assertion within some dates?
>
>Late 80s to around the turn of the millennium.
>
>FWIW I would still understand “the cloud” to mean the services provided
>rather than the means of accessing them.

Sure, but I'm talking about *a* cloud. As was pointed out earlier, "The
Cloud" is the trading name of a public wifi network.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<Fk7kv08AxPfiFApq@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:23:28 +0100
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:23 UTC

In message <t5ba04$7g1$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:55:00 on Mon, 9 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t590m0$32b$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:03:44 on Sun, 8 May 2022,
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t53foa$lbk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:44:10 on Fri, 6 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:56:52 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <p99a7h1hses2g7a0tiul6q3bs8nio1ahk6@4ax.com>, at 14:40:34 on
>>>>>> Fri, 6 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of
>>>>>>>>physically
>>>>>>>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shush! I wasn't going to raise that. However, especially on bad
>>>>>> connections, the packets might not even be flowing through all
>>>>>> the same routers from one second to the next.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Cloud" is nothing more than marketdroid terminology for the internet.
>>>>> The latter sounds techy and scary, the former warm and fluffy and doesn't
>>>>> scare off the dimwit techno illiterates in the boardroom.
>>>>
>>>> Once again, you fail to distinguish between the cloud-services/cloud
>>>> storage, and the stuff which connects it all together.
>>>
>>> Which, I will repeat, was never referred to
>>
>> within your hearing?
>
>Yes, and I was fairly well informed.

We must have moved in different circles then.

>>> as a cloud until cloud services came along.
>>
>> Which was in the late 90's.
>
>See my response to your other request for dates.

It probably wasn't referred to much as a cloud in the 80's. Not least
because it was still largely a bunch of point-to-point connections (and
with virtually no users outside academia).

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:26:21 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:26 UTC

In message <t539b1$ksg$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:54:41 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 14:32:56 +0100, Graeme Wall
>><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/05/2022 13:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t4tbiq$6up$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:10 on Wed, 4 May 2022,
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t4p2sl$o81$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:03:16 on Mon, 2 May 2022,
>>>>>> Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> remarked:
>>>>>>> Op 1-5-2022 om 17:35 schreef Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:03:08 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t4jmqh$rse$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:06:41 on Sat, 30 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And as I said, not forever. All they do (for various definitions of
>>>>>>>>>> "all") is  an FFT on the incoming data and only write out the level
>>>>>>>>>> of the frequencies  that the algorithm thinks the ear can hear.
>>>>>>>>>> Different algos will have  different ideas of what that'll be but
>>>>>>>>>> ultimately you'll be left with the  common denominator frequencies
>>>>>>>>>> that they all agree are needed and after that  it won't get any
>>>>>>>>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The actual problem of course, isn't voice that's slightly Darlek, but
>>>>>>>>> dropouts where there's either silence, or so little bandwidth
>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>> one only receives every third word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Particularly annoying on radio station interviews where they seem to
>>>>>>>> insist  on the guest using zoom or similar, then halfway through the
>>>>>>>> interview the  line dies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahem! The cloud dies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahem!  All sorts of things might die.  The effect is that the virtual
>>>>> line
>>>>> between the participants dies.
>>>>
>>>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
>>>> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
>>>> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
>>>> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
>>>> explicitly in the past).
>>>>
>>>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
>>>> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
>>>> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
>>>> (their word was of course 'line').
>>>
>>> In what sense is the "cloud" not a line? It still consists of physically
>>> connected components despite the marketing name.
>>
>> Might there not be satellite, microwave or WiFi links along the way?
>
>My guess is that dropouts are mainly due to poor domestic connections,
>either congested link to the ISP or more often than not poorly
>configured/setup domestic WiFi. I regularly use Webex and/or Teams for
>teleconferencing across Europe and we very rarely suffer difficulties.

And the people in this radio interviews are typically fairly senior and
have usually been put up as press spokesmen. They aren't ordinary
members of the public.

As such, you wouldn't expect them to be tolerant of months or years of
such flaky connectivity at their homes.

>The major factor is that most participants are in significant work
>locations with industrial strength network infrastructure. Those that
>do participate from home seem to have properly configured domestic
>setups, but that’s hardly surprising given their line of work.

We appear to be in fierce agreement, so what's actually causing the
dropouts?
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:50:03 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:50 UTC

In message <t53a9j$tbe$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:11:01 on Fri, 6 May 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> There was one yesterday on R4 just before 8am. The interviewee was very
>> difficult to understand because roughly every fifth syllable was lost.
>> After struggling for a while, the radio station called them back on a
>> landline (something I've never heard them actually describe quite as
>> explicitly in the past).
>>
>> The average quality was then perhaps slightly worse, but didn't have the
>> dropouts, so a success. I can't support the idea that the intermittent
>> connection was due to anything other than a dodgy (<- their word) cloud
>> (their word was of course 'line').
>
>So you phrasing would be “a dodgy cloud”? Which one?

I think I've said several times now: "a dodgy connection".

>>> The marginal cost of any single phone call will be zero.
>>
>> I don't think anyone is seriously disputing that it's 'very low', but
>> there are often other logistical issues when using classic landlines.
>> Such as someone else in the family deciding to grab it just before the
>> radio station calls, and people wandering around the house with their
>> cordless phone and entering a room with a radio on, listening to that
>> very programme. Result equals: feedback loop :(
>>
>> Obviously they tell people not to do that, but it's all extra stuff to
>> have to cope with.
>
>Indeed. Cue children and pets crashing Zoom calls.

Quite a lot of those that we see are staged.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:34:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:34 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:15:09 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 12.05.2022 um 12:43 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> Ditto.
>>
>> Cloud is just another name for RPC and data storage.
>
>I can still use my smartphone just like the PDA from 2005, does that
>mean there's nothing new? Whatsapp (as opposed to SMS and phone) does

A smartphone is just a computer with a cellular component and touchscreen
which had already been done before Apple. But Apples marketing budget made sure
2nd time around it was a success.

>bring new qualities even though it's "just internet".

Does it? Its just SMS combined with IRC.

>In the Business-to-business sector, items 4 to 6 above are extremely
>significant.

So was Blackberry Messenger. Look what happened to that.

>Now, the service provider runs ERP software for 1,000 customers on the
>same machine, CPU and hard drives are swapped in and out automatically
>as needed.

Tandem was doing that in the 90s.

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Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:36:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:36 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 11:55:02 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5am0l$d0f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:13:57 on Mon, 9 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:27:09 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t566eg$aje$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:44 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
>>>>> guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.
>>>>
>>>> Thirty years ago, they had to replace a junction box on the side of my
>>>> then house from which the phone line to my neighbour was daisy-chained.
>>>> As with all these other example, really flimsy wiring and
>>>> accident-waiting-to-happen IDC connectors.
>>>
>>> If you think copper is flimsy you must hate fibre.
>>
>> Fibre is quite resilient by comparison.
>>
>> Anyway, a picture this week: on the right a copper installation that's
>> lot its lid, with (it's difficult to see) potentially nine or ten
>> subscriber lines, and on the left a final 8-way splitter awaiting the
>> fitting of the individual premises fibres.
>>
>> http://perry.co.uk/images/Copper-to-fibre.jpg
>
>Outdoor grade fibre is incredibly strong. I had some 8 core with plastic
>“armour”. About 6mm in diameter. It completely resisted standard wire
>cutters and then tin snips. Only a bit of hard work with a hacksaw cut
>through it.

The same can be done with copper. Try cutting an old 10 Base 5 ethernet cable
with anything other than a bolt cutter.

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From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:41:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:41 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:13:33 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t5bd2u$1h04$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:47:42 on Mon, 9 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:07:20 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t5aloe$90b$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:09:34 on Mon, 9 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>Once again, you fail to distinguish between the cloud-services/cloud
>>>>>storage, and the stuff which connects it all together.
>>>>
>>>>No I'm not. The internet would be meaningless without computers attached to
>>>it.
>>>
>>>Indeed, but the original idea was point-to-point connections (even if
>>>with diverse routing in between). Web servers being a box you could go
>>>and look at, and browsers running on the box in front of you.
>>
>>Huh? Web servers didn't appear until the 90s, ~20 years after the Internet.
>
>So what, if it make you happier say "ftp server".

Ftp servers don't load balance (AFAIK).

>>RPC and NFS were devised in the 80s and cover everything "cloud" does with
>>detail differences.
>
>They didn't give access to distributed services, mainly because *they*
>hadn't been invented yet.

Errm, RPC is how distributed services work. You really have been out of the
IT game a long time.

>>Yes they are. The cloud can be 1 -> 1 or 1 -> N, its all hidden from the user.
>
>
>Cloud services (as defined by those pesky marketing people you hate so
>much) are always going to be 1 -> Many.

No they're not. So if I have a Linux VM running on AWS, thats running on
multiple systems at once? Umm, no.

>>Bollocks. Standard web servers can hive off requests to different child
>>servers to retrieve data from multiply redundant sources. Google search has
>>done the same since 2000. Hows that any different?
>
>Hey, a friend of mine was a senior techie at Akamai, so I'm well aware
>of the early [around the Millennium] implementations of spreading
>content around. But that's cloud services, and my point was that in 1995

Thank you for agreeing with me that cloud is just marketing BS for stuff
that already existed.

>>Thats just data retrieval. Just because you don't know where the data is is
>>irrelevant.
>
>Of course it's relevant to this discussion because it's what
>differentiates cloud *storage* from single servers.

No, it isn't. Distributed RDBMs have been around for yonks. No one ever called
them "cloud".

>>Its hardly a new concept.
>
>Define new. Above you seem be the 90's as "new".

Since the term cloud was invented by some gimp in a cheap suit.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:08:34 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:08 UTC

In message <t5j5td$1t9i$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:34:22 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:15:09 +0200
>Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>Am 12.05.2022 um 12:43 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> Ditto.
>>>
>>> Cloud is just another name for RPC and data storage.
>>
>>I can still use my smartphone just like the PDA from 2005, does that
>>mean there's nothing new? Whatsapp (as opposed to SMS and phone) does
>
>A smartphone is just a computer with a cellular component and touchscreen
>which had already been done before Apple. But Apples marketing budget made sure
>2nd time around it was a success.

It's a bit more complicated than that. While there had been PDAs with
connectivity, the iPhone was significantly smaller and more integrated.
Ironically, since then smartphones have been getting bigger and bigger.

>>bring new qualities even though it's "just internet".
>
>Does it? Its just SMS combined with IRC.

If you have to ask, perhaps you are unfamiliar with it. The main thing
which sets Whatsapp apart is the management of closed user groups.

--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:09:24 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:09 UTC

In message <t5j61u$1vpq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:36:46 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 12 May 2022 11:55:02 -0000 (UTC)
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5am0l$d0f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:13:57 on Mon, 9 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:27:09 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t566eg$aje$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:44 on Sat, 7 May 2022,
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> The outer was cracked, the cable was full of water and the BT
>>>>>> guy who replaced it said he didn’t know how it had ever worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thirty years ago, they had to replace a junction box on the side of my
>>>>> then house from which the phone line to my neighbour was daisy-chained.
>>>>> As with all these other example, really flimsy wiring and
>>>>> accident-waiting-to-happen IDC connectors.
>>>>
>>>> If you think copper is flimsy you must hate fibre.
>>>
>>> Fibre is quite resilient by comparison.
>>>
>>> Anyway, a picture this week: on the right a copper installation that's
>>> lot its lid, with (it's difficult to see) potentially nine or ten
>>> subscriber lines, and on the left a final 8-way splitter awaiting the
>>> fitting of the individual premises fibres.
>>>
>>> http://perry.co.uk/images/Copper-to-fibre.jpg
>>
>>Outdoor grade fibre is incredibly strong. I had some 8 core with plastic
>>“armour�. About 6mm in diameter. It completely resisted standard wire
>>cutters and then tin snips. Only a bit of hard work with a hacksaw cut
>>through it.
>
>The same can be done with copper. Try cutting an old 10 Base 5 ethernet cable
>with anything other than a bolt cutter.

Can be done, but routinely isn't done.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:20:00 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:20 UTC

In message <t5j6ah$4jv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:41:21 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:13:33 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t5bd2u$1h04$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:47:42 on Mon, 9 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Mon, 9 May 2022 13:07:20 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t5aloe$90b$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:09:34 on Mon, 9 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>Once again, you fail to distinguish between the cloud-services/cloud
>>>>>>storage, and the stuff which connects it all together.
>>>>>
>>>>>No I'm not. The internet would be meaningless without computers attached to
>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>Indeed, but the original idea was point-to-point connections (even if
>>>>with diverse routing in between). Web servers being a box you could go
>>>>and look at, and browsers running on the box in front of you.
>>>
>>>Huh? Web servers didn't appear until the 90s, ~20 years after the Internet.
>>
>>So what, if it make you happier say "ftp server".
>
>Ftp servers don't load balance (AFAIK).

I didn't suggest they did. In fact the reverse, I'm using it as an
example of point-to-point client-server.

>>>RPC and NFS were devised in the 80s and cover everything "cloud" does with
>>>detail differences.
>>
>>They didn't give access to distributed services, mainly because *they*
>>hadn't been invented yet.
>
>Errm, RPC is how distributed services work.

Oh look, a connectivity cloud:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtEkcBRO6dk/maxresdefault.jpg

>You really have been out of the IT game a long time.

I've been in it long after the 90's.

>>>Yes they are. The cloud can be 1 -> 1 or 1 -> N, its all hidden from
>>>the user.
>>
>>
>>Cloud services (as defined by those pesky marketing people you hate so
>>much) are always going to be 1 -> Many.
>
>No they're not. So if I have a Linux VM running on AWS, thats running on
>multiple systems at once? Umm, no.

AWS provides scaleable service to end users, by distributing the
computing over multiple systems. I suppose you can define one specific
computer in one specific room, to run that Linux VM, but have you?

>>>Bollocks. Standard web servers can hive off requests to different child
>>>servers to retrieve data from multiply redundant sources. Google search has
>>>done the same since 2000. Hows that any different?
>>
>>Hey, a friend of mine was a senior techie at Akamai, so I'm well aware
>>of the early [around the Millennium] implementations of spreading
>>content around. But that's cloud services, and my point was that in 1995
>
>Thank you for agreeing with me that cloud is just marketing BS for stuff
>that already existed.

That's not the issue here. (Anyway, you'd probably disagree on principle
with any buzzphrase used to sell cloud computing).

>>>Thats just data retrieval. Just because you don't know where the data is is
>>>irrelevant.
>>
>>Of course it's relevant to this discussion because it's what
>>differentiates cloud *storage* from single servers.
>
>No, it isn't. Distributed RDBMs have been around for yonks. No one ever called
>them "cloud".

That's not the issue here. Which is when the connectivity, the Internet
that binds all these distributed services together, entered the public
consciouness as a cloud. That would have been some time after people in
the industry, of course.

>>>Its hardly a new concept.
>>
>>Define new. Above you seem be the 90's as "new".
>
>Since the term cloud was invented by some gimp in a cheap suit.

That's probably be Amazon then. For cloud *services*. I'm more
interested in when the Internet, which binds all these distributed
services together, was first thought of as a cloud by techies in the
industry.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:30:28 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:30 UTC

In message <t5isbp$ut2$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:21 on Thu, 12 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5i844$ltb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:05:56 on Thu, 12 May
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t5gr1l$14l$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:16:37 on Wed, 11 May
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t5e1uh$r1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:56:01 on Tue, 10 May 2022,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t5bi40$84b$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:13:36 on Mon, 9
>>>>>>>>May 2022,
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only FTTP I can find with multi-hundred-Mbps upload is Cerberus
>>>>>>>>>> 900/200, and that's £160/mnth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most (all?) of the FTTP altnet providers provide symmetric up
>>>>>>>>>and down,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not all, because I picked one of the most well known, and they
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could nominate one which does, just to satisfy my
>>>>>>>>curiosity. We could also see if they have a 500/500 product for
>>>>>>>>as little as £35. A lot of people would probably love something like that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe I’ve mentioned CityFibre before. Probably the
>>>>>>>largest of the altnets and set to be the third biggest network
>>>>>>>behind OpenReach and Virgin Media. Note CityFibre are wholesalers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner’s provider (I’ve forgotten the name but he has mentioned it
>>>>>>> before) similarly provides symmetric up/down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Toob https://www.toob.co.uk/ are another, down south.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, it’s only OpenReach that are deploying
>>>>>>>an asymmetric FTTP product.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Openreach isn't the person making that decision, it's their
>>>>>> resellers. The fog of war here is how many of the providers are digging
>>>>>> their own fibre (mainly in subsidised rural areas I suspect) and how
>>>>>> many are Openreach resellers (re-digging up the whole of London is a
>>>>>> major exercise!).
>>>>>
>>>>> Absolutely not the case. The upload speed is determined by the ONT, the
>>>>> electronics in the home, and this is provided by OpenReach. Zen will
>>>>> provide 900/900 on CityFibre infrastructure but only 900/100 on OpenReach
>>>>> fibre.
>>>>
>>>> Openreach are providing the transport layer, but the resellers decide
>>>> how to configure it.
>>>>
>>>> So, for example, Zen will have decided on that 900/100 mix, other OR
>>>> resellers like Vodafone have chosen 500/75.
>>>>
>>>>> CityFibre, by their name, aren’t operating in subsidised rural areas.
>>>>
>>>> What's their rationale for offering service in North Walsham?
>>>
>>> But you are spectacularly missing the point.
>>
>> My point was, why is CITYfibre offering service in North Walsham?
>>
>>> The ISPs are unable to offer
>>> symmetric connections over OpenReach FTTP infrastructure because that
>>> infrastructure is unable to support it. You simply can’t get 900/900
>>> service over OR supplied infrastructure. OR are deploying outdated endpoint
>>> electronics.
>>
>> At the head-end? The splitters are passive, we've been assured over and
>> over again. In any event, what use do most premises have for more than
>> 100Mbps upload? There's talk of people doing backups etc, but they can
>> be done in the background, or middle of the night, if 100Mbps really is
>> to slow for those few minutes in the middle of the day.
>>
>> I'd rather have something close to a guaranteed 100Mbps, than have to
>> share 900Mbps with all my neighbours.
>>
>>> I’ve no information on why CityFibre are deploying in North Waltham. My
>>> guess is some small outfit was initially involved, which then got purchased
>>> by CF. CF seems to have purchased a number of smaller altnets. Perhaps a
>>> bit of a reply of the cable TV rollout.
>>
>> Would these be bankrupt rural initiatives perhaps?
>
>It’s the electronics at the customer end (ONT) that really define the
>performance of the uplink speed. With OR they have a time domain
>multiplexing system. I’m uncertain as to how CF and others improve on this,
>but I believe part of the solution is to use more wavelengths.
>
>You have to share your bandwidth with others somewhere between you and the
>endpoint computer. Only a private circuit is uncontended.

Winding back a few layers in the debate, ISDN isn't a private circuit,
and isn't contended. I used to sit at home and call an ISDN modem which
was sat in the same rack as the server I wanted. OK, the three feet of
Ethernet was in a sense contended, but not sufficiently to be
noticeable.

>The reality is there’s so much bandwidth available you never notice
>it.

I used to notice it in the evenings when watching streaming video on a
70Mbps FTTC connection.

>Most people have little need for a high average speed, but being able
>to burst at 1GBit/sec is very useful for things like file up/down
>loads. I’d much rather have a contended 32:1 1Gbit/sec than a
>guaranteed 100 Mbit/sec.

I'm not sure how many need upload bursting at more than 100Mbps. Few
will have local storage capable of feeding that. It's a DVD (4hrs of
content) every 6 minutes. *Down*loading a DVD a minute might be
attractive for the terminally impatient.
--
Roland Perry

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5jaok$dee$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29371&group=uk.railway#29371

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:57:08 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:57 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:08:34 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t5j5td$1t9i$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:34:22 on Thu, 12 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:15:09 +0200
>>Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>Am 12.05.2022 um 12:43 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>> Ditto.
>>>>
>>>> Cloud is just another name for RPC and data storage.
>>>
>>>I can still use my smartphone just like the PDA from 2005, does that
>>>mean there's nothing new? Whatsapp (as opposed to SMS and phone) does
>>
>>A smartphone is just a computer with a cellular component and touchscreen
>>which had already been done before Apple. But Apples marketing budget made
>sure
>>2nd time around it was a success.
>
>It's a bit more complicated than that. While there had been PDAs with
>connectivity, the iPhone was significantly smaller and more integrated.

So have desktop computers. They're still desktop computers.

>Ironically, since then smartphones have been getting bigger and bigger.
>
>>>bring new qualities even though it's "just internet".
>>
>>Does it? Its just SMS combined with IRC.
>
>If you have to ask, perhaps you are unfamiliar with it. The main thing
>which sets Whatsapp apart is the management of closed user groups.

Wow, private groups! Truly it is magic and never been seen before! Oh, wait...

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5jb1t$i00$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29373&group=uk.railway#29373

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!BKzeqmo2UYxb4eR2zKm0zw.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:02:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 16:02 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:20:00 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t5j6ah$4jv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:41:21 on Thu, 12 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>Huh? Web servers didn't appear until the 90s, ~20 years after the Internet.
>>>
>>>So what, if it make you happier say "ftp server".
>>
>>Ftp servers don't load balance (AFAIK).
>
>I didn't suggest they did. In fact the reverse, I'm using it as an
>example of point-to-point client-server.

Which a web request isn't necessarily. Not only can the DNS resolve to any
number of IP addresses (hence servers) but even when you do connect you can
be redirected elsewhere.

>>Errm, RPC is how distributed services work.
>
>Oh look, a connectivity cloud:
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtEkcBRO6dk/maxresdefault.jpg

Oh look, it says "Basic". You've heard of Corba and SOAP I presume?

>>No they're not. So if I have a Linux VM running on AWS, thats running on
>>multiple systems at once? Umm, no.
>
>AWS provides scaleable service to end users, by distributing the
>computing over multiple systems. I suppose you can define one specific
>computer in one specific room, to run that Linux VM, but have you?

The VM is only running on 1 node at any given time.

>>Thank you for agreeing with me that cloud is just marketing BS for stuff
>>that already existed.
>
>That's not the issue here. (Anyway, you'd probably disagree on principle
>with any buzzphrase used to sell cloud computing).

Not principle, facts. But since you went over to the waffle side of the
industry you probably think the words matter more than the tech.

>That's not the issue here. Which is when the connectivity, the Internet
>that binds all these distributed services together, entered the public
>consciouness as a cloud. That would have been some time after people in
>the industry, of course.

The public just use whatever buzzwords are fed to them.

Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and

<t5je65$b5v$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29375&group=uk.railway#29375

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From: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: London Underground: Track inspector hit by Tube near Chalfont and
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 17:55:33 +0100
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 by: martin.c...@round-midnight.org.uk - Thu, 12 May 2022 16:55 UTC

On 11/05/2022 15:06, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t5gbrr$qph$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:57:31 on Wed, 11 May
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 11/05/2022 13:39, Certes wrote:
>>> On 11/05/2022 13:16, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> They've already said they are turning off the copper by 2025.
>>>> What they're not saying is how they will service properties with no
>>>> mobile coverage.  It's all very well say IP phones or whatever but
>>>> what about during a power cut?
>
>>>  Power cuts happen rarely enough to have minimal impact on call
>>> profits,  and they won't care about safety unless they're forced or
>>> paid to care.  It'll be a downgrade in service, which a monopolist
>>> can get away with.
>
> They are highly regulated, so can we perhaps leave this for the
> regulator to cope with?
>
>> It all depends where you live.  My friend who lives on the edge of the
>> Somerset Levels has about eights localised power cuts per year.
>>
>> I don't call eight per year rare.
>
> It's not an unusual number for a rural area, but how long do they last?
> Most of mine are over in anything from ten seconds (someone replacing
> something) to a couple of minutes.
>
> Annoying if you've got lots of appliances with not-battery-backed-up
> clocks in them, but I've long decided to spend a hundred quid on a UPS
> for my home-office to smooth over such hiccups. [Ex data centre
> reconditioned UPS, not a brand new one, which for that amount of money
> is going to be pretty useless].

They last as long as it takes to get a team out to repair the cables as
it is always a broken cable.

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