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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Yet another HS2 route

SubjectAuthor
* Yet another HS2 routeGraeme Wall
`* Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
 +* Yet another HS2 routeGraeme Wall
 |`- Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
 +* Yet another HS2 routeTweed
 |`- Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
 `* Yet another HS2 routeTheo
  `* Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
   `* Yet another HS2 routeRecliner
    `* Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
     `* Yet another HS2 routeRecliner
      `* Yet another HS2 routeRoland Perry
       `* Yet another HS2 routeRecliner
        `- Yet another HS2 routeTweed

1
Yet another HS2 route

<t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 09:58:01 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sun, 15 May 2022 08:58 UTC

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<p32f7v5JLNgiFA1v@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:15:37 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:15 UTC

In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>

One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
(including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.

Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
the way.

So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
Tollerton.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:31:21 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 23
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 by: Graeme Wall - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:31 UTC

On 15/05/2022 11:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>
> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>
> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
> the way.
>
> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards Tollerton.
Even more likely not to happen at all.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Yet another HS2 route

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 10:41:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:41 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>
> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>
> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
> the way.
>
> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
> Tollerton.

Nothing wrong with going via Ruddington. You can have an interchange
station with the northern bit of the Great Central. Perhaps get a few steam
charters onto HS2 and run the occasional HS2 train to Leicester North, once
you’ve wired the GCR. What’s not to like?

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<6HAbXu6SoNgiFAVH@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:46:42 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 30
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:46 UTC

In message <t5qkpp$oli$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:21 on Sun, 15 May
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 15/05/2022 11:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>

>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the
>>Midlands (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m
>>to burn on studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of
>>Nottingham would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost
>>certainly have to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and
>>then a bend left to skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and
>>the Country Park are in the way.

>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>Tollerton.

>Even more likely not to happen at all.

It looks like the least likely of the four to happen, but then it's
allegedly the cheapest.

So we might be back to the original plan via classic lines to Sheffield,
and retaining the end-to-end timings by teleporting the trains, because
the classic lines even at 125mph won't deliver that).
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<pHyf3u7arNgiFA2M@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 11:50:02 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 36
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 15 May 2022 10:50 UTC

In message <t5qlcm$sr6$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:41:26 on Sun, 15 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>
>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>
>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>> the way.
>>
>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>> Tollerton.
>
>Nothing wrong with going via Ruddington. You can have an interchange
>station with the northern bit of the Great Central. Perhaps get a few steam
>charters onto HS2 and run the occasional HS2 train to Leicester North, once
>you’ve wired the GCR. What’s not to like?

Of course, a route just south of Ruddington would go straight through
the country park with whatever that Heritage operation is called this
week. But the local wouldn't allow that, hence to need to go even
further south.

But if you could prise more of the GC Central off the Heritage people
(good luck with that) then [extending the] tram link into central
Nottingham would be relatively easy.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: 15 May 2022 23:08:57 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sun, 15 May 2022 22:08 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
> ><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-phase-2b.pdf
is the report.

> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>
> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
> the way.
>
> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
> Tollerton.

It's proposing using the existing line from EMP and Nottingham station, with
the new route starting at Lowdham. From there it seems to be extra tracks
on the ECML (or close by) with a bypass of Doncaster.

Theo

Re: Yet another HS2 route

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 07:28:52 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
Lines: 51
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:28 UTC

In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>> ><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>
>https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>hase-2b.pdf
>is the report.

Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
for the route-map.

>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>
>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>> the way.
>>
>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>> Tollerton.
>
>It's proposing using the existing line from EMP

For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
uses it extensively

>and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.

Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.

>From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>bypass of Doncaster.

Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
- would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".

Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
trams.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 06:48:02 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:48 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>
>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>> hase-2b.pdf
>> is the report.
>
> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
> for the route-map.
>
>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>
>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>> the way.
>>>
>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>> Tollerton.
>>
>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>
> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
> uses it extensively
>
>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>
> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>
>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>> bypass of Doncaster.
>
> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>
> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
> trams.

Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending. And perhaps the HS2
trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just have a junction,
presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2 platforms.

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<H3aU74K7QhgiFARR@perry.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29567&group=uk.railway#29567

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:07 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:07 UTC

In message <t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:02 on Mon, 16 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
>> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>>
>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>>> hase-2b.pdf
>>> is the report.
>>
>> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
>> for the route-map.
>>
>>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>>
>>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>>> the way.
>>>>
>>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>>> Tollerton.
>>>
>>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>>
>> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
>> uses it extensively
>>
>>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>>
>> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>>
>>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>>> bypass of Doncaster.
>>
>> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
>> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
>> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>>
>> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
>> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
>> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
>> trams.
>
>Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending.

They are only 250m at the moment. So could accommodate half-trains, but
they are proposing Notting to have 400m platforms.

>And perhaps the HS2 trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just
>have a junction, presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2
>platforms.

It's not helped by there being (at least) four versions of the plan.

The "Newark Alignment" one says "East Midlands Parkway, Connection" and
the thumbnail map shows it south of the station. And crucially in Table
17 quotes a London - EMP time of 51 minutes [alongside London-Derby 58
mins and London - Nottingham 57 mins]

Figure 13 shows 2tph from London (one next stop Derby, the other next
stop Nottingham), 1 tph from Birmingham (next stop Nottingham) and an
optional fourth stop on a Birmingham-Lincoln service.

Although not stated explicitly, I expect the stops are mainly to
facilitate Birmingham to Derby/Sheffield trips, which aren't served by
direct trains. London to Doncaster/York-Newcastle will require an
interchange at either EMP or Nottingham because all the direct trains
via Newark are next stop Leeds.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<u1178hho0fcuqot549jearcl1g64erqkgq@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29625&group=uk.railway#29625

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From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 17 May 2022 11:19 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:02 on Mon, 16 May
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
>>> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>>>
>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>>>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>>>> hase-2b.pdf
>>>> is the report.
>>>
>>> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
>>> for the route-map.
>>>
>>>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>>>
>>>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>>>> the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>>>> Tollerton.
>>>>
>>>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>>>
>>> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
>>> uses it extensively
>>>
>>>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>>>
>>> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>>>
>>>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>>>> bypass of Doncaster.
>>>
>>> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
>>> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
>>> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>>>
>>> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
>>> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
>>> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
>>> trams.
>>
>>Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending.
>
>They are only 250m at the moment. So could accommodate half-trains, but
>they are proposing Notting to have 400m platforms.

I would expect HS2 to have its own, longer platforms, leaving the MML platforms unchanged.

>
>>And perhaps the HS2 trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just
>>have a junction, presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2
>>platforms.
>
>It's not helped by there being (at least) four versions of the plan.

It's not a plan, just an early evaluation of several proposals.

>
>The "Newark Alignment" one says "East Midlands Parkway, Connection" and
>the thumbnail map shows it south of the station. And crucially in Table
>17 quotes a London - EMP time of 51 minutes [alongside London-Derby 58
>mins and London - Nottingham 57 mins]
>
>Figure 13 shows 2tph from London (one next stop Derby, the other next
>stop Nottingham), 1 tph from Birmingham (next stop Nottingham) and an
>optional fourth stop on a Birmingham-Lincoln service.
>
>Although not stated explicitly, I expect the stops are mainly to
>facilitate Birmingham to Derby/Sheffield trips, which aren't served by
>direct trains. London to Doncaster/York-Newcastle will require an
>interchange at either EMP or Nottingham because all the direct trains
>via Newark are next stop Leeds.

Don't expect classic line schedules to remain exactly the same as they are now when the full HS2 opens in 20 years time.

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<rDTfmm+d74giFAnM@perry.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29632&group=uk.railway#29632

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 13:02:37 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 17 May 2022 12:02 UTC

In message <u1178hho0fcuqot549jearcl1g64erqkgq@4ax.com>, at 12:19:50 on
Tue, 17 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:02 on Mon, 16 May
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
>>>> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>>>>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>>>>> hase-2b.pdf
>>>>> is the report.
>>>>
>>>> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
>>>> for the route-map.
>>>>
>>>>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>>>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>>>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>>>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>>>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>>>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>>>>> the way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>>>>> Tollerton.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>>>>
>>>> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
>>>> uses it extensively
>>>>
>>>>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>>>>
>>>> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>>>>
>>>>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>>>>> bypass of Doncaster.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
>>>> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
>>>> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>>>>
>>>> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
>>>> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
>>>> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
>>>> trams.
>>>
>>>Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending.
>>
>>They are only 250m at the moment. So could accommodate half-trains, but
>>they are proposing Notting to have 400m platforms.
>
>I would expect HS2 to have its own, longer platforms, leaving the MML
>platforms unchanged.

Ah, you've not read the document then. (And apart from everything else,
Nottingham Station doesn't have any spare footprint for extra platforms.

>>>And perhaps the HS2 trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just
>>>have a junction, presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2
>>>platforms.
>>
>>It's not helped by there being (at least) four versions of the plan.
>
>It's not a plan, just an early evaluation of several proposals.

"The plan" is to find something better than what they call "do nothing",
which in effect means "more than dump the trains onto the existing
tracks at EMP".

There are at least four distinct proposals, with different flavours.

>>The "Newark Alignment" one says "East Midlands Parkway, Connection" and
>>the thumbnail map shows it south of the station. And crucially in Table
>>17 quotes a London - EMP time of 51 minutes [alongside London-Derby 58
>>mins and London - Nottingham 57 mins]
>>
>>Figure 13 shows 2tph from London (one next stop Derby, the other next
>>stop Nottingham), 1 tph from Birmingham (next stop Nottingham) and an
>>optional fourth stop on a Birmingham-Lincoln service.
>>
>>Although not stated explicitly, I expect the stops are mainly to
>>facilitate Birmingham to Derby/Sheffield trips, which aren't served by
>>direct trains. London to Doncaster/York-Newcastle will require an
>>interchange at either EMP or Nottingham because all the direct trains
>>via Newark are next stop Leeds.
>
>Don't expect classic line schedules to remain exactly the same as they
>are now when the full HS2

There's never going to be a "full HS2"; at least, it's extremely
unlikely.

And of course people can change from HS2 to classic lines to get to
places not otherwise served. But to get to places which *are* served
will require HS2/HS2 changes sometimes. What did you think the
"Interchange" stations were for?

>opens in 20 years time.

Again, you've clearly not read the document, it goes into that in some
detail.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Yet another HS2 route

<t609lv$4fe$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=29634&group=uk.railway#29634

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 13:58:24 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <t609lv$4fe$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Recliner - Tue, 17 May 2022 13:58 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <u1178hho0fcuqot549jearcl1g64erqkgq@4ax.com>, at 12:19:50 on
> Tue, 17 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:02 on Mon, 16 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
>>>>> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>>>>>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>>>>>> hase-2b.pdf
>>>>>> is the report.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
>>>>> for the route-map.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>>>>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>>>>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>>>>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>>>>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>>>>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>>>>>> the way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>>>>>> Tollerton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>>>>>
>>>>> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
>>>>> uses it extensively
>>>>>
>>>>>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>>>>>> bypass of Doncaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
>>>>> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
>>>>> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>>>>>
>>>>> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
>>>>> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
>>>>> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
>>>>> trams.
>>>>
>>>> Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending.
>>>
>>> They are only 250m at the moment. So could accommodate half-trains, but
>>> they are proposing Notting to have 400m platforms.
>>
>> I would expect HS2 to have its own, longer platforms, leaving the MML
>> platforms unchanged.
>
> Ah, you've not read the document then. (And apart from everything else,
> Nottingham Station doesn't have any spare footprint for extra platforms.

I was obviously referring to EMD, not NOT.

>
>>>> And perhaps the HS2 trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just
>>>> have a junction, presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2
>>>> platforms.
>>>
>>> It's not helped by there being (at least) four versions of the plan.
>>
>> It's not a plan, just an early evaluation of several proposals.
>
> "The plan" is to find something better than what they call "do nothing",
> which in effect means "more than dump the trains onto the existing
> tracks at EMP".
>
> There are at least four distinct proposals, with different flavours.

Yes, at least four distinct *proposals*.

>
>>> The "Newark Alignment" one says "East Midlands Parkway, Connection" and
>>> the thumbnail map shows it south of the station. And crucially in Table
>>> 17 quotes a London - EMP time of 51 minutes [alongside London-Derby 58
>>> mins and London - Nottingham 57 mins]
>>>
>>> Figure 13 shows 2tph from London (one next stop Derby, the other next
>>> stop Nottingham), 1 tph from Birmingham (next stop Nottingham) and an
>>> optional fourth stop on a Birmingham-Lincoln service.
>>>
>>> Although not stated explicitly, I expect the stops are mainly to
>>> facilitate Birmingham to Derby/Sheffield trips, which aren't served by
>>> direct trains. London to Doncaster/York-Newcastle will require an
>>> interchange at either EMP or Nottingham because all the direct trains
>>> via Newark are next stop Leeds.
>>
>> Don't expect classic line schedules to remain exactly the same as they
>> are now when the full HS2
>
> There's never going to be a "full HS2"; at least, it's extremely
> unlikely.

Well, it depends what you mean by the term.

Re: Yet another HS2 route

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From: usenet.t...@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Yet another HS2 route
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:56:42 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Tweed - Tue, 17 May 2022 16:56 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u1178hho0fcuqot549jearcl1g64erqkgq@4ax.com>, at 12:19:50 on
>> Tue, 17 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 10:07:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t5ss32$bck$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:02 on Mon, 16 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <5cx*+5fOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 23:08:57 on Sun,
>>>>>> 15 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t5qfap$lhr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:01 on Sun, 15 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-61274952>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa
>>>>>>> ds/attachment_data/file/1033903/strategic-alternatives-to-high-speed-2-p
>>>>>>> hase-2b.pdf
>>>>>>> is the report.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Despite being the headline of the BBC story, skip to Figure 15, page 65
>>>>>> for the route-map.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of four, and the only proposal that ignores stations in the Midlands
>>>>>>>> (including Nottingham Midland). But hey, they've got £100m to burn on
>>>>>>>> studying what I'll file for now as four dead cats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Getting from East Midlands Parkway by going round the east of Nottingham
>>>>>>>> would be "interesting" to say the least, as you'd almost certainly have
>>>>>>>> to still cross the river, then do a rapid u-turn and then a bend left to
>>>>>>>> skirt Edwalton and Gamston. But Ruddington and the Country Park are in
>>>>>>>> the way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So it's much more likely to go south of Kegworth and up towards
>>>>>>>> Tollerton.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's proposing using the existing line from EMP
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For clarity, that's not the station's code, but to be fair the report
>>>>>> uses it extensively
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and Nottingham station, with the new route starting at Lowdham.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Despite which, the plan includes closing over 20 level crossings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From there it seems to be extra tracks on the ECML (or close by) with a
>>>>>>> bypass of Doncaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, so when they say "Under the plans, a new line - or high-speed bypass
>>>>>> - would be built east of Nottingham", they don't mean "around the east
>>>>>> of Nottingham", but "further east than Nottingham".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surprisingly high cost of the junction south of EMD, 4x the cost of
>>>>>> extending Nottingham Station; and no mention of extending Parkway
>>>>>> station to 400m, or indeed the airport, or ground transportation like
>>>>>> trams.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, the existing platforms wouldn't need extending.
>>>>
>>>> They are only 250m at the moment. So could accommodate half-trains, but
>>>> they are proposing Notting to have 400m platforms.
>>>
>>> I would expect HS2 to have its own, longer platforms, leaving the MML
>>> platforms unchanged.
>>
>> Ah, you've not read the document then. (And apart from everything else,
>> Nottingham Station doesn't have any spare footprint for extra platforms.
>
> I was obviously referring to EMD, not NOT.
>
>>
>>>>> And perhaps the HS2 trains aren't intended to stop there at all? Just
>>>>> have a junction, presumably to the north of the station, with no HS2
>>>>> platforms.
>>>>
>>>> It's not helped by there being (at least) four versions of the plan.
>>>
>>> It's not a plan, just an early evaluation of several proposals.
>>
>> "The plan" is to find something better than what they call "do nothing",
>> which in effect means "more than dump the trains onto the existing
>> tracks at EMP".
>>
>> There are at least four distinct proposals, with different flavours.
>
> Yes, at least four distinct *proposals*.
>
>>
>>>> The "Newark Alignment" one says "East Midlands Parkway, Connection" and
>>>> the thumbnail map shows it south of the station. And crucially in Table
>>>> 17 quotes a London - EMP time of 51 minutes [alongside London-Derby 58
>>>> mins and London - Nottingham 57 mins]
>>>>
>>>> Figure 13 shows 2tph from London (one next stop Derby, the other next
>>>> stop Nottingham), 1 tph from Birmingham (next stop Nottingham) and an
>>>> optional fourth stop on a Birmingham-Lincoln service.
>>>>
>>>> Although not stated explicitly, I expect the stops are mainly to
>>>> facilitate Birmingham to Derby/Sheffield trips, which aren't served by
>>>> direct trains. London to Doncaster/York-Newcastle will require an
>>>> interchange at either EMP or Nottingham because all the direct trains
>>>> via Newark are next stop Leeds.
>>>
>>> Don't expect classic line schedules to remain exactly the same as they
>>> are now when the full HS2
>>
>> There's never going to be a "full HS2"; at least, it's extremely
>> unlikely.
>
> Well, it depends what you mean by the term.
>
>

There’s not going to be the money for this. The rail system is bleeding
money and is showing no signs of this significantly improving. What money
there is will be spent on electrification of existing lines.

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