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aus+uk / uk.railway / Re: Timetable change

SubjectAuthor
* Timetable changeAnna Noyd-Dryver
+- Timetable changeRoland Perry
`* Timetable changeNY
 +* Timetable changeLew 1
 |+- Timetable changeLew 1
 |`* Timetable changeNY
 | +* Timetable changeLew 1
 | |`* Timetable changeRoland Perry
 | | `* Timetable changeSam Wilson
 | |  `* Timetable changeRoland Perry
 | |   `- Timetable changeSam Wilson
 | `* Timetable changeDave Jackson
 |  +- Timetable changeMuttley
 |  `* Timetable changeJeremy Double
 |   `* Timetable changeNY
 |    `* Timetable changeRecliner
 |     +* Timetable changeJeremy Double
 |     |+* Timetable changeRecliner
 |     ||`* Timetable changeAnna Noyd-Dryver
 |     || `- Timetable changeRecliner
 |     |`- Timetable changeSam Wilson
 |     `- Timetable changeAnna Noyd-Dryver
 +- Timetable changeBob
 `- Timetable changeAnna Noyd-Dryver

1
Timetable change

<t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Timetable change
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 01:32:17 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Sun, 15 May 2022 01:32 UTC

Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:

Southern 455s withdrawn.

Southern service to Milton Keynes ends.

gWr service to Brighton ends.

Bristol gWr drivers lose knowledge between Warminster and Portsmouth.

Birmingham XC crews no longer go beyond Cambridge (lose Stansted Airport
knowledge)

Leeds XC drivers lose knowledge Newcastle-Edinburgh.

I'll keep my eye on the thread for others.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Timetable change

<pE8vXtkibJgiFA2f@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 07:00:02 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Sun, 15 May 2022 06:00 UTC

In message <t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me>, at 01:32:17 on Sun, 15 May
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
>of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>
>Southern 455s withdrawn.
>
>Southern service to Milton Keynes ends.
>
>gWr service to Brighton ends.
>
>Bristol gWr drivers lose knowledge between Warminster and Portsmouth.
>
>Birmingham XC crews no longer go beyond Cambridge (lose Stansted Airport
>knowledge)

They've always had Cambridge-based drivers, because at dawn and dusk the
service deteriorates into an airport shuttle. eg First through train on
a Sunday leaves Cambridge at 14:15.

<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CBG/to/gb-
nr:SSD/2022-07-03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XC>

Believe it or not that's the first Sunday ahead where the service isn't
truncated from the North by engineering works.

15/5 Nuneaton (as was 8th May).
22/5 Coleshill Parkway
29/5 Melton Mowbray
05/6 Peterbrorugh
12/6 Ely
19/6 Cambridge
26/6 Cambridge
03/7 Birmingham (hurrah)

>Leeds XC drivers lose knowledge Newcastle-Edinburgh.
>
>I'll keep my eye on the thread for others.
>
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

--
Roland Perry

Re: Timetable change

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 20:08:59 +0100
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 by: NY - Sun, 15 May 2022 19:08 UTC

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>
> Southern 455s withdrawn.

I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not quite)
as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats (a
thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant that
you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear every
noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.

I have "fond" memories of them on the Bracknell-Waterloo line. When I first
started travelling, the service was operated by VEPs which were getting on a
bit in years but they had nice comfy seats and rode well. Some sets had a
carriage of compartment stock, I think a few of them being first class. OK,
their slam doors meant they had to be retired on H&S grounds, but I hoped
we'd get something better than what came after: the dreaded 455 which was
tolerable for a short journey, but left passengers with numb-bum if they
were doing the full 90-minute Waterloo-Reading journey. The lack of toilets
was another reason they weren't suitable for journeys as long as
Waterloo-Reading.

Re: Timetable change

<1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>

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From: ema...@nowhere.com (Lew 1)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 09:09:03 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lew 1 - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:09 UTC

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>
>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>
> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not quite)
> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats (a
> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant that
> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear every
> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.

To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
years ago….?

Lew

Re: Timetable change

<982229159.674385111.014541.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>

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From: ema...@nowhere.com (Lew 1)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 09:12:43 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lew 1 - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:12 UTC

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>
>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>
>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not quite)
>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats (a
>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant that
>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear every
>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>
> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
> years ago….?

In fact, the SWT refurbishment turned them into pretty decent trains -
those ones, at least, are still plying their trade.

Re: Timetable change

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:23:59 +0100
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 by: NY - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:23 UTC

"Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>> cuts
>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>
>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>
>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>> quite)
>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>> (a
>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>> that
>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>> every
>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>
> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
> years ago….?

That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.

It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough. They were
often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158. The 158 carriages
got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages remained half empty until they
became the only place where there were seats.

The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)

Re: Timetable change

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From: ema...@domain.com (Bob)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 11:31:51 +0200
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 by: Bob - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:31 UTC

On 2022-05-15 19:08:59 +0000, NY said:

> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>
>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>
> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
> quite) as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their
> stone-hard seats (a thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with
> low backs which meant that you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also
> meant that you could hear every noisy child or shouted mobile-phone
> conversation in the carriage.

The seats were undoubtedly terrible, but was the ride significantly
different from other Mk3 derived units (eg 321, 319 etc)? I would have
assumed they had the same bodyshells and bogies, so the ride ought to
be similar. As built there were compartments in each driving coach of
a VEP, with one 2nd class and 3 1st each.

> I have "fond" memories of them on the Bracknell-Waterloo line. When I
> first started travelling, the service was operated by VEPs which were
> getting on a bit in years but they had nice comfy seats and rode well.

The last VEPs entered service less than 10 years before the first 455s.

> Some sets had a carriage of compartment stock, I think a few of them
> being first class. OK, their slam doors meant they had to be retired on
> H&S grounds,

Also the body-on-underframe construction was not particularly
crashworthy (see Clapham Junction crash).

Robin

Re: Timetable change

<618680824.674388182.455383.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>

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From: ema...@nowhere.com (Lew 1)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 10:04:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Lew 1 - Mon, 16 May 2022 10:04 UTC

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>>> cuts
>>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>>
>>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>>
>>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>>> quite)
>>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>>> (a
>>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>>> that
>>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>>> every
>>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>>
>> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
>> years ago….?
>
> That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
> Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
> the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
> then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
> metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
> were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.
>
> It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough. They were
> often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158. The 158 carriages
> got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages remained half empty until they
> became the only place where there were seats.

How did that work given, I presume, you couldn’t transfer between the
units? Much dashing between them at station stops?

Lew

Re: Timetable change

<2CGI27SIhigiFAEu@perry.uk>

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 11:32:40 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Mon, 16 May 2022 10:32 UTC

In message <618680824.674388182.455383.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
at 10:04:37 on Mon, 16 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>>>> cuts
>>>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>>>
>>>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>>>
>>>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>>>> quite)
>>>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>>>> (a
>>>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>>>> that
>>>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>>>> every
>>>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>>>
>>> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
>>> years ago….?
>>
>> That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
>> Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
>> the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
>> then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
>> metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
>> were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.
>>
>> It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough. They were
>> often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158. The 158 carriages
>> got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages remained half empty until they
>> became the only place where there were seats.
>
>How did that work given, I presume, you couldn’t transfer between the
>units? Much dashing between them at station stops?

People looking through the windows as the train arrives on the platform?

Happens a lot here, especially with 3-car 170's, where despite the
ability to move between cars, most people seem to want to get in the
emptiest one at the first attempt.
--
Roland Perry

Re: Timetable change

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From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 12:52:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Mon, 16 May 2022 12:52 UTC

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being cuts
>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>
>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>
> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not quite)
> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats (a
> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant that
> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear every
> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>
> I have "fond" memories of them on the Bracknell-Waterloo line. When I first
> started travelling, the service was operated by VEPs which were getting on a
> bit in years but they had nice comfy seats and rode well. Some sets had a
> carriage of compartment stock, I think a few of them being first class. OK,
> their slam doors meant they had to be retired on H&S grounds, but I hoped
> we'd get something better than what came after: the dreaded 455 which was
> tolerable for a short journey, but left passengers with numb-bum if they
> were doing the full 90-minute Waterloo-Reading journey. The lack of toilets
> was another reason they weren't suitable for journeys as long as
> Waterloo-Reading.
>
>

I went for a last ride on Southern 455s a couple of weeks ago, they now
have seating which matches the rest of the Southern fleet, high-backed and
I'm sure some will complain that they're inadequately padded. The only real
clue that you were riding on an 'old' train is how slooooooowly they
accelerate compared to newer units!

Meanwhile SWR's 455s continue in service for now, but they've all been
retractioned with more modern equipment; so what the end of the SN 455s
actually represents is, I think, the end of EE507 traction motors and
camshaft control.

And interesting addendum from a friend:

<quote>
20 years ago I was given the job of doubling the reliability
of Southern's 455s by 2005 alongside a major
refurbishment project. 20 years later they are the latest
victim of post Covid service cuts and today is their last
weekday in service, so I felt that I had to revisit them for
one last time.

I'm pleased to report that we actually managed to at least
triple the fleet reliability by use of our Innovation Award
winning TAPAS system, the first fleet-wide retrospective
application of condition monitoring equipment in the UK.
Armed with accurate and reliable data about what the
trains were actually doing (or trying to do) we were able to
get to the root cause of problems and make some very
cost-effective reliability modifications, of which the
electronic notching relay was by far the best (replacing an
almost impossible to calibrate electromechanical relay
and some ancillary components with a simple electronic
box).

It's always sad to see something that you've worked on for
many years get retired, but after 40 years of service to
South London they don't owe anyone anything, and still
look good inside, if rather functional on the outside.
</quote>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Timetable change

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From: dav...@dave-jackson.org.uk (Dave Jackson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 16:58:26 +0100
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 by: Dave Jackson - Mon, 16 May 2022 15:58 UTC

On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)

You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
--
Dave,
Frodsham
http://s1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc461/Davy41/

Re: Timetable change

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Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 16:01:49 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Mutt...@dastardlyhq.com - Mon, 16 May 2022 16:01 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:58:26 +0100
Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>
>You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>now the preserve of Metrolink trams.

Go ride a 72 stock tube train on the bakerloo line to fine out what a poor
ride really means. No BR train comes close to just how bad it is.

Re: Timetable change

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 09:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Tue, 17 May 2022 09:11 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <618680824.674388182.455383.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 10:04:37 on Mon, 16 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>>>>> cuts
>>>>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>>>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>>>>> quite)
>>>>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>>>>> (a
>>>>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>>>>> that
>>>>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>>>>> every
>>>>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess about 15
>>>> years ago….?
>>>
>>> That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
>>> Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
>>> the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
>>> then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
>>> metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
>>> were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.
>>>
>>> It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough. They were
>>> often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158. The 158 carriages
>>> got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages remained half empty until they
>>> became the only place where there were seats.
>>
>> How did that work given, I presume, you couldn’t transfer between the
>> units? Much dashing between them at station stops?
>
> People looking through the windows as the train arrives on the platform?
>
> Happens a lot here, especially with 3-car 170's, where despite the
> ability to move between cars, most people seem to want to get in the
> emptiest one at the first attempt.

Is that with pairs of 170s? You can always move between carriages in a 170
set, can’t you?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: Timetable change

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From: rol...@perry.co.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:12:04 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Tue, 17 May 2022 11:12 UTC

In message <t5vorg$t5h$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:12 on Tue, 17 May
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <618680824.674388182.455383.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>> at 10:04:37 on Mon, 16 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>>>>>> cuts
>>>>>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>>>>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>>>>>> quite)
>>>>>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>>>>>> (a
>>>>>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess
>>>>>about 15
>>>>> years ago….?
>>>>
>>>> That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
>>>> Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
>>>> the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
>>>> then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
>>>> metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
>>>> were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.
>>>>
>>>> It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough.
>>>>They were often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158.
>>>>The 158 carriages got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages
>>>>remained half empty until they became the only place where there were seats.
>>>
>>> How did that work given, I presume, you couldn’t transfer between the
>>> units? Much dashing between them at station stops?
>>
>> People looking through the windows as the train arrives on the platform?
>>
>> Happens a lot here, especially with 3-car 170's, where despite the
>> ability to move between cars, most people seem to want to get in the
>> emptiest one at the first attempt.
>
>Is that with pairs of 170s?

No, we only see that about once a year (and usually one half is locked
out).

>You can always move between carriages in a 170 set, can’t you?

Yes, but people are either unaware, or don't want the bother, or want to
grab a seat as soon as possible [bird in the hand, and all that].

viz: "despite the ability to move between cars, most people seem to want
to get in the emptiest one at the first attempt."
--
Roland Perry

Re: Timetable change

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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 11:48:20 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Tue, 17 May 2022 11:48 UTC

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t5vorg$t5h$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:12 on Tue, 17 May
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <618680824.674388182.455383.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>> at 10:04:37 on Mon, 16 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Lew 1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1726018405.674384893.579379.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org...
>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:t5pl71$u5e$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> Today's timetable change brings a number of 'lasts', among them being
>>>>>>>> cuts
>>>>>>>> of through services and cuts in traincrew route knowledge. Information
>>>>>>>> mostly culled from a thread elsewhere on social media:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Southern 455s withdrawn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I won't shed a tear for the 455s. They were almost (almost - but not
>>>>>>> quite)
>>>>>>> as bad a Pacers for their uncomfortable ride and their stone-hard seats
>>>>>>> (a
>>>>>>> thin piece of foam on a hard plastic shell) with low backs which meant
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> you couldn't lean back. Those low seats also meant that you could hear
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> noisy child or shouted mobile-phone conversation in the carriage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair, they hadn’t had those seats for many years - I guess
>>>>>> about 15
>>>>>> years ago….?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's very likely. I last used 455s in 2000 when I moved away from the
>>>>> Bracknell area. But it is the impression that you gathered while you used
>>>>> the train that is the one that lingers, even if things have changed since
>>>>> then. Same as for Pacers. I first used them when they had the low
>>>>> metal-framed bus-type bench seats. I know that since then most/all the sets
>>>>> were refurbished to have high-backed individual seats.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was always interesting to see the trains to/from Knaresborough.
>>>>> They were often formed of a two-car Pacer coupled to a 2-car 158.
>>>>> The 158 carriages got full very quickly and the Pacer carriages
>>>>> remained half empty until they became the only place where there were seats.
>>>>
>>>> How did that work given, I presume, you couldn’t transfer between the
>>>> units? Much dashing between them at station stops?
>>>
>>> People looking through the windows as the train arrives on the platform?
>>>
>>> Happens a lot here, especially with 3-car 170's, where despite the
>>> ability to move between cars, most people seem to want to get in the
>>> emptiest one at the first attempt.
>>
>> Is that with pairs of 170s?
>
> No, we only see that about once a year (and usually one half is locked
> out).
>
>> You can always move between carriages in a 170 set, can’t you?
>
> Yes, but people are either unaware, or don't want the bother, or want to
> grab a seat as soon as possible [bird in the hand, and all that].
>
> viz: "despite the ability to move between cars, most people seem to want
> to get in the emptiest one at the first attempt."

Oh, I see - right. Thanks,

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: Timetable change

<1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net>

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From: jmd.nos...@btinternet.com (Jeremy Double)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: 29 May 2022 14:54:57 GMT
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 by: Jeremy Double - Sun, 29 May 2022 14:54 UTC

Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>
> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.

People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
mind.

Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.

--
Jeremy Double

Re: Timetable change

<t703ki$aks$1@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Sun, 29 May 2022 16:31:08 +0100
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 by: NY - Sun, 29 May 2022 15:31 UTC

"Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>
>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.

I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
whether it was a Pacer.

> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
> mind.

Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
some such phrase.

> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.

I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.

My overwhelming memories of the 115s on the Aylesbury run were a) the
choking diesel-smoke in the compartments which were too hot in summer, and
very cold with condensation running down the inside of the windows in
winter; b) the characteristic driving style that 1st Gen DMUs needed:
accelerate in first gear, close the throttle and let the train coast for
ages with the engine idling, engage second, accelerate again, and likewise
through the gears. I gather this was imposed by the multiple-unit technology
which needed a long idle period at each gearchange to allow for different
delays in each gearbox performing the change (they didn't want one engine in
second gear while another was still in first).

Re: Timetable change

<t704sp$k7a$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30326&group=uk.railway#30326

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Sun, 29 May 2022 15:52:57 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Sun, 29 May 2022 15:52 UTC

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>
>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>
> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
> whether it was a Pacer.
>
>
>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>> mind.
>
> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
> some such phrase.

Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
chassis could BR have based them on?

However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
wagon chassis'.

>
>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>
> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>

They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
based on. The Sri Lankan railway did it much more wholeheartedly:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157641801963124>

Re: Timetable change

<1450673866.675873463.145887.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net>

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From: jmd.nos...@btinternet.com (Jeremy Double)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: 2 Jun 2022 14:41:25 GMT
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 by: Jeremy Double - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:41 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>
>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>
>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>
>>
>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>> mind.
>>
>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>> some such phrase.
>
> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
> chassis could BR have based them on?
>
> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
> wagon chassis'.
>
>>
>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>
>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>
>
> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
> based on.

The class 141s were (IIRC) the same width as a Leyland National bus, with
2+2 seating. Expanding to full railway carriage width (and 3+2 seating)
came with the later class 142, 143 and 144.

IMO, the Alexander-bodied classes 143 and 144 were slightly nicer than the
Leyland National-bodied class 142, and these were all better than the
original class 141s.
--
Jeremy Double

Re: Timetable change

<t7ak2r$thm$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30571&group=uk.railway#30571

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:13:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:13 UTC

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>>
>>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>>
>>>
>>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>>> mind.
>>>
>>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>>> some such phrase.
>>
>> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
>> chassis could BR have based them on?
>>
>> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
>> wagon chassis'.
>>
>>>
>>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>>
>>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>>
>>
>> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
>> based on.
>
> The class 141s were (IIRC) the same width as a Leyland National bus, with
> 2+2 seating. Expanding to full railway carriage width (and 3+2 seating)
> came with the later class 142, 143 and 144.
>
> IMO, the Alexander-bodied classes 143 and 144 were slightly nicer than the
> Leyland National-bodied class 142, and these were all better than the
> original class 141s.

Yes, I was referring to the later Pacer classes, not the small, short-lived
141 fleet.

Re: Timetable change

<t7alu4$d64$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30575&group=uk.railway#30575

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
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From: ukr...@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:45:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Sam Wilson - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:45 UTC

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>>
>>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>>
>>>
>>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>>> mind.
>>>
>>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>>> some such phrase.
>>
>> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
>> chassis could BR have based them on?
>>
>> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
>> wagon chassis'.
>>
>>>
>>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>>
>>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>>
>>
>> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
>> based on.
>
> The class 141s were (IIRC) the same width as a Leyland National bus, with
> 2+2 seating. Expanding to full railway carriage width (and 3+2 seating)
> came with the later class 142, 143 and 144.
>
> IMO, the Alexander-bodied classes 143 and 144 were slightly nicer than the
> Leyland National-bodied class 142, and these were all better than the
> original class 141s.

And are the 155s/153s narrower than the 142-144, being longer, or are they
they same?

<sound-fx type=“wikipeding”, reason=“answering own question”>
unknown Leyland prototypes
2.5 m 140
2.5 m 141
2.8 m 142
2.695 m 143
2.695 m 144
2.7 m 155
</sound-fx>

So the Alexanders were narrower, at least externally, than the
Leyland-built 142.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: Timetable change

<t7bb6m$odo$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30580&group=uk.railway#30580

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:48:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:48 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>
>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>
>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>
>>
>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>> mind.
>>
>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>> some such phrase.
>
> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
> chassis could BR have based them on?
>
> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
> wagon chassis'.
>

The HSFV (High Speed Freight Vehicle) which the pacer chassis was based on,
never actually made it as far as freight service. The contemporary
long-wheelbase freight wagons were leaf-sprung.

>>
>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>
>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>
>
> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
> based on. The Sri Lankan railway did it much more wholeheartedly:
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157641801963124>
>

The prototypes, class 140 and class 141 were standard bus width. Class 142
used the same panels but were wider.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Timetable change

<t7bb6m$odo$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30581&group=uk.railway#30581

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ann...@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:48:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:48 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>>>
>>>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>>>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>>>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>>>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>>>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>>>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>>>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>>>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>>>> mind.
>>>>
>>>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>>>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>>>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>>>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>>>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>>>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>>>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>>>> some such phrase.
>>>
>>> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
>>> chassis could BR have based them on?
>>>
>>> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
>>> wagon chassis'.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>>>
>>>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>>>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>>>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>>>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>>>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>>>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>>>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
>>> based on.
>>
>> The class 141s were (IIRC) the same width as a Leyland National bus, with
>> 2+2 seating. Expanding to full railway carriage width (and 3+2 seating)
>> came with the later class 142, 143 and 144.
>>
>> IMO, the Alexander-bodied classes 143 and 144 were slightly nicer than the
>> Leyland National-bodied class 142, and these were all better than the
>> original class 141s.
>
> Yes, I was referring to the later Pacer classes, not the small, short-lived
> 141 fleet.
>
>

Whereas the person you were replying to was referring to a class 141.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: Timetable change

<t7bcmh$5c2$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=30582&group=uk.railway#30582

 copy link   Newsgroups: uk.railway
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: recliner...@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway
Subject: Re: Timetable change
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 22:13:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <t7bcmh$5c2$2@dont-email.me>
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 22:13 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Jeremy Double" <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1134943236.675528540.285305.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.net...
>>>>>> Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16/05/2022 10:23, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>> The best you can say about 455s and Pacers is that they were a means of
>>>>>>>> transport "better than walking - but only just" ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You clearly never rode a Pacer from Oldham Mumps down to Manchester
>>>>>>> Victoria. Alton Towers couldn't match that run. Pity that the route is
>>>>>>> now the preserve of Metrolink trams.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did actually do that journey once. I'd driven to Manchester to go to the
>>>>> Industrial Museum, and I decided to park at Oldham and get the train for the
>>>>> last bit, rather than trying to park in the city centre. It was a scorching
>>>>> hot day and the train had no air-con, and the hopper windows were as little
>>>>> use as ventilation as hopper windows always are. The long drag out of
>>>>> Victoria up the bank to the north on the way back, with the engines working
>>>>> hard and the train barely moving, was a stifling experience. Not sure
>>>>> whether it was a Pacer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> People are often very rude about the Pacers, but forget that first
>>>>>> generation DMUs could be very bouncy at speed, especially with a driving
>>>>>> trailer leading. The class 114s based at Lincoln particularly come to
>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of that may be due to the bouncy springing in the very
>>>>> well-padded/sprung seats in a 1st-gen DMU or EMU. I remember the Class 115s
>>>>> that did the Aylesbury-Marylebone run. But Pacers weren't bouncy, they were
>>>>> a very firm feel-every-track-defect ride, and also lurched and jolted on
>>>>> tight curves, presumably because their axles did not pivot on bogies. One
>>>>> article that I read, maybe at the time Pacers were withdrawn from one
>>>>> service, described them as being "freight wagons with a passenger body" or
>>>>> some such phrase.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that was well known, and hardly surprising — what other 4-wheel
>>>> chassis could BR have based them on?
>>>>
>>>> However, it's not accurate to describe them as a 'bus body on a freight
>>>> wagon chassis'.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, the windows of Pacers were considerably larger than those of class
>>>>>> 150s or 156s, making them better if you wanted to look at the scenery, for
>>>>>> instance on the Settle-Carlisle line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd never actually noticed that Pacers had larger windows. Maybe I was
>>>>> distracted by the ride. My first ride on a Pacer was from Knaresborough to
>>>>> York and back, before they were refurbished. Very slow clackety-clack with
>>>>> waits at the stations where dual track narrowed to single, for the opposite
>>>>> service to arrive. The one I rode on looked just like a single-decker bus
>>>>> body on rail wheels, and had the older bus-type 2-person seats: moquette
>>>>> base and backrest, with chrome-plated tubing around the backrest.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They were wider than the 1970s Leyland National bus body they were loosely
>>>> based on.
>>>
>>> The class 141s were (IIRC) the same width as a Leyland National bus, with
>>> 2+2 seating. Expanding to full railway carriage width (and 3+2 seating)
>>> came with the later class 142, 143 and 144.
>>>
>>> IMO, the Alexander-bodied classes 143 and 144 were slightly nicer than the
>>> Leyland National-bodied class 142, and these were all better than the
>>> original class 141s.
>>
>> Yes, I was referring to the later Pacer classes, not the small, short-lived
>> 141 fleet.
>>
>>
>
> Whereas the person you were replying to was referring to a class 141.

Yes, you're right, I'd missed that.

1
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