https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/

On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:

> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/

I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
aura of cool"

No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/

It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until the end
- emissions. They are using them in emissions *unregulated* spaces. As
well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how else do you lubricate the rotor
tip seals except with oil-loss lubrication mechanisms - just like the
Wankel engine. All they did was move the rotor tip seals to the
epichotroid chamber - lubrication issues still apply. One thing they did
improve on will be cooling. Wankel engines suffered a lot from
differential expansion due, in part, to the location of exhaust ports
relative to intake ports. This engine has tripled the number of exhaust
port locations spreading the heat loading more evenly. One of the
distinct disadvantages of the Wankel engine was that it was rotor
ported. No flexibility in intake and exhaust flow timings, unlike a
conventional engine where cam timing on the fly makes a huge difference
to performance, economy and smoothness.

It's compact, but so was the Wankel engine, and look at where that is now.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Xeno wrote:
> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>
>
> It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until the
> end - emissions. They are using them in emissions *unregulated*
> spaces. As well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how else do you
> lubricate the rotor tip seals except with oil-loss lubrication
> mechanisms - just like the Wankel engine. All they did was move the
> rotor tip seals to the epichotroid chamber - lubrication issues still
> apply. One thing they did improve on will be cooling. Wankel engines
> suffered a lot from differential expansion due, in part, to the
> location of exhaust ports relative to intake ports. This engine has
> tripled the number of exhaust port locations spreading the heat
> loading more evenly. One of the distinct disadvantages of the Wankel
> engine was that it was rotor ported. No flexibility in intake and
> exhaust flow timings, unlike a conventional engine where cam timing on
> the fly makes a huge difference to performance, economy and smoothness.
>
> It's compact, but so was the Wankel engine, and look at where that is
> now.
>

sounds like it should have been called the 'wanker' not the 'wankel'

--
Have a nice day!..

On 15/11/2023 11:22 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>
>> It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until the
>> end - emissions. They are using them in emissions *unregulated*
>> spaces. As well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how else do you
>> lubricate the rotor tip seals except with oil-loss lubrication
>> mechanisms - just like the Wankel engine. All they did was move the
>> rotor tip seals to the epichotroid chamber - lubrication issues still
>> apply. One thing they did improve on will be cooling. Wankel engines
>> suffered a lot from differential expansion due, in part, to the
>> location of exhaust ports relative to intake ports. This engine has
>> tripled the number of exhaust port locations spreading the heat
>> loading more evenly. One of the distinct disadvantages of the Wankel
>> engine was that it was rotor ported. No flexibility in intake and
>> exhaust flow timings, unlike a conventional engine where cam timing on
>> the fly makes a huge difference to performance, economy and smoothness.
>>
>> It's compact, but so was the Wankel engine, and look at where that is
>> now.
>>
>
> sounds like it should have been called the 'wanker' not the 'wankel'
>
Well, it looks like all the hype around it is purely because they are
trying to suc... interest investors.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Xeno wrote:
> On 15/11/2023 11:22 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Xeno wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until the
>>> end - emissions. They are using them in emissions *unregulated*
>>> spaces. As well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how else do you
>>> lubricate the rotor tip seals except with oil-loss lubrication
>>> mechanisms - just like the Wankel engine. All they did was move the
>>> rotor tip seals to the epichotroid chamber - lubrication issues
>>> still apply. One thing they did improve on will be cooling. Wankel
>>> engines suffered a lot from differential expansion due, in part, to
>>> the location of exhaust ports relative to intake ports. This engine
>>> has tripled the number of exhaust port locations spreading the heat
>>> loading more evenly. One of the distinct disadvantages of the Wankel
>>> engine was that it was rotor ported. No flexibility in intake and
>>> exhaust flow timings, unlike a conventional engine where cam timing
>>> on the fly makes a huge difference to performance, economy and
>>> smoothness.

how is valve timing on the fly done?

--
Have a nice day!..

On 15/11/2023 11:44 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
> Xeno wrote:
>> On 15/11/2023 11:22 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>>> Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until the
>>>> end - emissions. They are using them in emissions *unregulated*
>>>> spaces. As well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how else do you
>>>> lubricate the rotor tip seals except with oil-loss lubrication
>>>> mechanisms - just like the Wankel engine. All they did was move the
>>>> rotor tip seals to the epichotroid chamber - lubrication issues
>>>> still apply. One thing they did improve on will be cooling. Wankel
>>>> engines suffered a lot from differential expansion due, in part, to
>>>> the location of exhaust ports relative to intake ports. This engine
>>>> has tripled the number of exhaust port locations spreading the heat
>>>> loading more evenly. One of the distinct disadvantages of the Wankel
>>>> engine was that it was rotor ported. No flexibility in intake and
>>>> exhaust flow timings, unlike a conventional engine where cam timing
>>>> on the fly makes a huge difference to performance, economy and
>>>> smoothness.
>
> how is valve timing on the fly done?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

A good video that covers the whole gamut - timing *and* lift.

https://youtu.be/I5dy2Vnf95w

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Xeno wrote:
> On 15/11/2023 11:44 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Xeno wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 11:22 am, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>>>> Xeno wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't solve the problem that dogged the rotary engine until
>>>>> the end - emissions. They are using them in emissions
>>>>> *unregulated* spaces. As well, it has to be an *oil burner* - how
>>>>> else do you lubricate the rotor tip seals except with oil-loss
>>>>> lubrication mechanisms - just like the Wankel engine. All they did
>>>>> was move the rotor tip seals to the epichotroid chamber -
>>>>> lubrication issues still apply. One thing they did improve on will
>>>>> be cooling. Wankel engines suffered a lot from differential
>>>>> expansion due, in part, to the location of exhaust ports relative
>>>>> to intake ports. This engine has tripled the number of exhaust
>>>>> port locations spreading the heat loading more evenly. One of the
>>>>> distinct disadvantages of the Wankel engine was that it was rotor
>>>>> ported. No flexibility in intake and exhaust flow timings, unlike
>>>>> a conventional engine where cam timing on the fly makes a huge
>>>>> difference to performance, economy and smoothness.
>>
>> how is valve timing on the fly done?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing
>
>
>
> A good video that covers the whole gamut - timing *and* lift.
>
> https://youtu.be/I5dy2Vnf95w
>
>
>

Thanks. that explains it. modern engines are now so sophisticated. I
knew the timing would be computer controlled, but I didn't know how it
would work mechanically, because back in the day when I worked on cars
the relationship between the camshaft and the valves was fixed and
unchangeable of course, being controlled by pushrods. I remember doing
tappet adjustments when they became noisy, and the only way to alter
valve timing was by a camshaft gind or replacing it with one with
different lobes. then later overhead cams became the norm.

--
Have a nice day!..

On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>
>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>
>
> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
> aura of cool"
>
> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>
>

Something we agree on.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
> > On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
> >
> >> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
> >>
> >
> > I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
> > aura of cool"
> >
> > No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
> >
> >
> Something we agree on.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>
> --
> In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
> Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
> proven liar."
>
> On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
> "He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>> aura of cool"
>>>
>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>
>>>
>> Something we agree on.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.

Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
German tank :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>> aura of cool"
>>>
>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>
>>>
>> Something we agree on.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.

Never owned on myself but my son recently bought an RX8, pretty rough
example which he got very cheap as a project.
One of the reasons it was so cheap was that it was difficult to start
and wouldn't start at all when hot.
Someone had told the person he bought it from that the starting problem
was due to low compression and they are known for loosing compression
with age.
A bit of online research and he found that by replacing the OE starter
with an updated version that spins the engine over much faster the
starting problem was solved including hot starts.
I drove it last Friday and it actually drives quite well.
The plan is to get it roadworthy, registered and gradually restore it,
if it proves too difficult to get RW it may become a track only car.
One option is to replace the rotary with a Duratec, AFAIK it shares a
lot of it underpinnings with an MX5 so it shouldn't be a difficult swap
but that's a long way down the track and only if the rotary turns out to
be too far gone.

Daryl

Noddy wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>
>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Something we agree on.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>
> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
> to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
> German tank :)
>

LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
when the revs are low.

--
Have a nice day!..

On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Something we agree on.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>
>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
>> to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
>> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
>> German tank :)
>>
>
> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
> when the revs are low.
>
You will find, if you look at a torque chart for that engine, that the
torque comes in at fairly high revs. A turbo will fix it.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 17/11/2023 8:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Something we agree on.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>
>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
>> to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
>> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
>> German tank :)
>>
>
> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
> when the revs are low.
>

Yep, it's gutless so you need to give it some - once it's run in.

--
In thread "May need to buy petrol soon" Sept 23 2021 11:15:59am
Keithr0 wrote: "He made the assertion either he proves it or he is a
proven liar."

On Sept 23 2021 3:16:29pm Keithr0 wrote:
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if it is unproven, he is lying."

On 17/11/2023 10:08 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>
>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Something we agree on.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>
> Never owned on myself but my son recently bought an RX8, pretty rough
> example which he got very cheap as a project.
> One of the reasons it was so cheap was that it was difficult to start
> and wouldn't start at all when hot.
> Someone had told the person he bought it from that the starting problem
> was due to low compression and they are known for loosing compression
> with age.
> A bit of online research and he found that by replacing the OE starter
> with an updated version that spins the engine over much faster the
> starting problem was solved including hot starts.
> I drove it last Friday and it actually drives quite well.
> The plan is to get it roadworthy, registered and gradually restore it,
> if it proves too difficult to get RW it may become a track only car.
> One option is to replace the rotary with a Duratec, AFAIK it shares a
> lot of it underpinnings with an MX5 so it shouldn't be a difficult swap
> but that's a long way down the track and only if the rotary turns out to
> be too far gone.

sounds like the rotor seals, the main weakness of the Wankel. The new
engine has the seals on the stator where it's easier to lubricate them.

Clocky wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 8:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines
>>>>>> have an
>>>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Something we agree on.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>
>>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was
>>> enough to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my
>>> engines to make more torque than an analogue clock, and generally
>>> use less fuel than a German tank :)
>>>
>>
>> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
>> when the revs are low.
>>
>
> Yep, it's gutless so you need to give it some

I only really notice it if I'm in top gear at it's low end, and want to
move quickly.

> - once it's run in.
>

 the manual says not to rev beyond 3,000 rpm until 1,500 Klms are up. I
may have done once or twice but no more. I have 1,250 up already, and I
will finish the run in this coming week sometime. :)

--
Have a nice day!..

On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:

>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>
>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
>> to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
>> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
>> German tank :)
>>
>
> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
> when the revs are low.

Which would be more to do with your transmission not changing to a more
appropriate gear than a lack of torque. Remember when Clasener said you
can't labour an engine driving an automatic transmission? :)

I don't know what the torque spec of your engine is Felix, but I imagine
it's not high and only having 4 forward gear ratios would be doing it no
favours at all.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 18/11/2023 2:13 am, Keithr0 wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 10:08 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Something we agree on.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>
>> Never owned on myself but my son recently bought an RX8, pretty rough
>> example which he got very cheap as a project.
>> One of the reasons it was so cheap was that it was difficult to start
>> and wouldn't start at all when hot.
>> Someone had told the person he bought it from that the starting
>> problem was due to low compression and they are known for loosing
>> compression with age.
>> A bit of online research and he found that by replacing the OE starter
>> with an updated version that spins the engine over much faster the
>> starting problem was solved including hot starts.
>> I drove it last Friday and it actually drives quite well.
>> The plan is to get it roadworthy, registered and gradually restore it,
>> if it proves too difficult to get RW it may become a track only car.
>> One option is to replace the rotary with a Duratec, AFAIK it shares a
>> lot of it underpinnings with an MX5 so it shouldn't be a difficult
>> swap but that's a long way down the track and only if the rotary turns
>> out to be too far gone.
>
> sounds like the rotor seals, the main weakness of the Wankel. The new
> engine has the seals on the stator where it's easier to lubricate them.
>

Very likely worn seals but it doesn't appear to be that bad at the moment.
I saw how the redesigned rotary flipped the way the seals work.
I can imagine it being an option for small engines but can't imagine it
going into a car.

--
Daryl

On 18/11/2023 9:22 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>
>>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was
>>> enough to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines
>>> to make more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less
>>> fuel than a German tank :)
>>>
>>
>> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
>> when the revs are low.
>
> Which would be more to do with your transmission not changing to a more
> appropriate gear than a lack of torque. Remember when Clasener said you
> can't labour an engine driving an automatic transmission? :)
>
> I don't know what the torque spec of your engine is Felix, but I imagine
> it's not high and only having 4 forward gear ratios would be doing it no
> favours at all.
>
>
A 4spd auto is rubbish in 2023, my 21 yr old MB has a 5spd auto and from
around 2009 C Class went to 7spd.
Must be some old cheap parts bin trans they found lying around somewhere.

--
Daryl

Noddy wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>
>>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was
>>> enough to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my
>>> engines to make more torque than an analogue clock, and generally
>>> use less fuel than a German tank :)
>>>
>>
>> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
>> when the revs are low.
>
> Which would be more to do with your transmission not changing to a
> more appropriate gear than a lack of torque.

once I finish the run in I will be able to give it more revs which
should make it drop down to the next lower gear

> Remember when Clasener said you can't labour an engine driving an
> automatic transmission? :)

I think you can if you don't have enough revs up to cause it to change down

>
> I don't know what the torque spec of your engine is Felix, but I
> imagine it's not high and only having 4 forward gear ratios would be
> doing it no favours at all.
>
>

but it's not that long since cars only had three gears, so four should
be enough

--
Have a nice day!..

On 18/11/2023 8:27 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 2:13 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 10:08 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
>>>>> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
>>>>>> aura of cool"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Something we agree on.
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>
>>> Never owned on myself but my son recently bought an RX8, pretty rough
>>> example which he got very cheap as a project.
>>> One of the reasons it was so cheap was that it was difficult to start
>>> and wouldn't start at all when hot.
>>> Someone had told the person he bought it from that the starting
>>> problem was due to low compression and they are known for loosing
>>> compression with age.
>>> A bit of online research and he found that by replacing the OE
>>> starter with an updated version that spins the engine over much
>>> faster the starting problem was solved including hot starts.
>>> I drove it last Friday and it actually drives quite well.
>>> The plan is to get it roadworthy, registered and gradually restore
>>> it, if it proves too difficult to get RW it may become a track only car.
>>> One option is to replace the rotary with a Duratec, AFAIK it shares a
>>> lot of it underpinnings with an MX5 so it shouldn't be a difficult
>>> swap but that's a long way down the track and only if the rotary
>>> turns out to be too far gone.
>>
>> sounds like the rotor seals, the main weakness of the Wankel. The new
>> engine has the seals on the stator where it's easier to lubricate them.
>>
>
> Very likely worn seals but it doesn't appear to be that bad at the moment.
> I saw how the redesigned rotary flipped the way the seals work.
> I can imagine it being an option for small engines but can't imagine it
> going into a car.
>
One of the coolest engines that I have seen was at a boat show a few
years ago. It was a supercharged wankel designed for jet skis and such.
The whole thing including the supercharger and gearbox was a cylinder
about 50cm diameter and less than a metre long.

Noddy <me@home.com> wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>
>>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
>>> to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my engines to make
>>> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
>>> German tank :)
>>>
>>
>> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
>> when the revs are low.
>
> Which would be more to do with your transmission not changing to a more
> appropriate gear than a lack of torque. Remember when Clasener said you
> can't labour an engine driving an automatic transmission? :)

And you still can’t. Felix has mentioned the lack of power, not labouring
the engine. The engine is simply not a powerhouse.
>
> I don't know what the torque spec of your engine is Felix, but I imagine
> it's not high and only having 4 forward gear ratios would be doing it no
> favours at all.

You really don’t understand autos, do you? Especially you haven’t a clue
about torque converters.

____
Xeno

Mighty Mouse <meow@pussie.com> wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 11:15 pm, Mighty Mouse wrote:
>>> Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>   So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.
>>>>
>>>> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was
>>>> enough to convince me that I never want to own one. I like my
>>>> engines to make more torque than an analogue clock, and generally
>>>> use less fuel than a German tank :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> LOL! speaking of torque.. I notice that that ZS has poor acceleration
>>> when the revs are low.
>>
>> Which would be more to do with your transmission not changing to a
>> more appropriate gear than a lack of torque.
>
> once I finish the run in I will be able to give it more revs which
> should make it drop down to the next lower gear
>
>> Remember when Clasener said you can't labour an engine driving an
>> automatic transmission? :)
>
> I think you can if you don't have enough revs up to cause it to change down

Nope, the torque converter allows the engine to spin freely up to the
current stall point. To labour an engine requires it to be locked in a high
ratio in a solid link drivetrain under heavy load. Autos only achieve that
under OD plus TCL and it only does that under no load. Apply throttle, TCL
will drop off, then OD will drop out. Further throttle will trigger a
downshift whilst WOT will trigger a kickdown.

Load sensing, change down according to load versus throttle setting. Don’t
give it throttle, it’s programmed to remain in a higher gear for fuel
economy. That’s normal.
>
>>
>> I don't know what the torque spec of your engine is Felix, but I
>> imagine it's not high and only having 4 forward gear ratios would be
>> doing it no favours at all.
>>
>>
>
> but it's not that long since cars only had three gears, so four should
> be enough
>
>
____
Xeno

On Friday, 17 November 2023 at 22:06:04 UTC+11, Noddy wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 8:48 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 19:22:48 UTC+11, Clocky wrote:
> >> On 15/11/2023 5:04 am, Noddy wrote:
> >>> On 15/11/2023 3:41 am, Keithr0 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/this-inside-out-design-solves-most-of-the-rotary-engines-problems/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I stopped reading after the first sentence of "Rotary engines have an
> >>> aura of cool"
> >>>
> >>> No, they don't, and they never, ever did :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Something we agree on.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > So, to come to that conclusion, you guys have owned rotaries then?.

> Me personally? No. But I've known people who have, and that was enough
> to convince me that I never want to own one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I`ve mentioned it before, the RX4, 13B, 5 speed manual (conversion) that my ex owned was a rocket ship.! Every gear change on the buzzer (on the open rd) A bit thirsty (shrug) but the performance was worth it. (Wasn`t a concern back then anyhoo)

I like my engines to make
> more torque than an analogue clock, and generally use less fuel than a
> German tank :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Torque? not really a concern The gear lever is there to use (which is why the P/O converted it) keeping the revs up is key!.
Maintenance of the ignition system was the big deal, (two sets of points, leading/trailing plugs) The rest pretty well looked after itself...All in all, a fuckin' top car!
This was a four door, we were always going to get an RX7 but never eventuated.. Ah well. Actually,

On thinking about it, fuel consumption was on a par with my Jeep!.
> --
> --
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.