I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.

Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
to comment on that.

Thanks.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.
>

yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.

They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)

Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and verse.....

what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to give
me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house

However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche
got the same treatment.

S.

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.

I've been using a powerline adapter in the lounge for several years. An
ancient MW battery-powered radio in the bathroom (about 7 metres away)
never appeared to suffer any interference.

--

Jeff

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.
>
I had a powerline pair to extend my ethernet to another floor where I
had a machine that didn't have wifi. It worked most of the time[1] but
the house wiring had the two floors on separate ring mains so the router
and powerline on one ring had to get the signal down to the basement
where the fusebox lives and then up two floors to the other powerline,
and my powerline connection always ran a bit below its rated speed.

[1] I found that when I used my laptop on its battery the powerline link
was OK, but when the batteries ran down a bit and I switched on the
"compatible" power supply (the original had died some time before), it
killed the powerline connection completely. The laptop power supply was
obviously squirting something into the mains that interfered with the
powerline connection. So don't regard powerlines as foolproof.

I eventually ran a long (50 metre) Cat5e ethernet cable upstairs and put
an 8-port ethernet switch on the end of it to regenerate any losses from
the long cable and that worked perfectly. The powerlines are now back
in their box, and I have used another of the ports off the upstairs
switch for a NAS device because I had the flexibility to do that.

The other alternative if you are expecting to use only wifi devices
remotely is to use a wifi repeater. You can get some with a
pass-through mains socket so that the mains outlet still remains
available for use.

Jim

In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
<jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
> pain.

> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.

Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will* notice
it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near neighbours will
encounter interference from you using it.

Bascially, it should never have been legalised. OffCrap simply took for
granted that it couldn't be a problem when they allowed the system to be
sold. In effect, they considered one of the sources *without* considering
the effects of adding the house wiring in typical real houses. Bit like
testing a sig gen without connecting an antenna or output cables.

Later on as the wanted/approved bandwidth was increased they did say the
devices should 'notch out' the main consumer radio bands. But even when
that is done it ignored minor snags - like most 'loads' on house mains
being nonlinear. So when you have items like TVs, radios, etc, working
their PSUs may act as 'mixers'... and convert some of the power-line
signals into crap in the 'notched' gaps anyway!

However no surprise given that OfCom's real job is to maximise Government
income from RF. The old 'tech' tasks of the RadCom Agency essentially were
all assumed to be down to companies who wanted to make a quick buck. So
when the two were 'merged' they basically fired the engineers and kept the
suits. Any engineer with a clue would have told them the idea was bad. But
there was money to be made, so...

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
>> pain.
>>
>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would
>> be able to comment on that.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>
> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
> Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>
> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
> verse.....
>
> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
> some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to give
> me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>
> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
> sockets dotted around the house.....   Even the garage and the kitche
> got the same treatment.
>
>

Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is
not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or
three units.

The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the
airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:39:11 +0000, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

>
>I eventually ran a long (50 metre) Cat5e ethernet cable upstairs and put
>an 8-port ethernet switch on the end of it to regenerate any losses from
>the long cable and that worked perfectly. The powerlines are now back
>in their box, and I have used another of the ports off the upstairs
>switch for a NAS device because I had the flexibility to do that.
>
+1 to running CAT5e ethernet via the outside from my office to the
attic where there is a switch, the DVR and a Synology NAS, and PoE
CCTV cameras connected to the switch.
A few years ago, when I had some work done in the hall which included
the installation of laminate flooring, I took the opportunity to run
more CAT5e from the office, under the laminate floor, to CAT5e and
RJ45 sockets in the the hall and the integral garage.
Lasy year I installed a pair of
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0939VVZZ8, one in the office and
one in the attic. Subjectively, connecting the DVR to ports 9 or 10
result in in it displaying the CCTV noticeably faster than when I used
Netgear switches.

On 13/01/2022 16:48, Woody wrote:
> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
>>> pain.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would
>>> be able to comment on that.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>
>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>
>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
>> Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>
>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>> verse.....
>>
>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
>> some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to
>> give me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>
>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>> sockets dotted around the house.....   Even the garage and the kitche
>> got the same treatment.
>>
>>
>
> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
> and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is
> not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or
> three units.
>
> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
> connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the
> airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.
>

And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown....
ran it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down pipe
then across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)

On Thu 13/01/2022 18:33, SH wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 16:48, Woody wrote:
>> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
>>>> pain.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>>>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here
>>>> would be able to comment on that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>>
>>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
>>> Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>>
>>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>>> verse.....
>>>
>>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to
>>> fit some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms
>>> to give me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>>
>>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>>> sockets dotted around the house.....   Even the garage and the kitche
>>> got the same treatment.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do
>> work and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band
>> which is not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router
>> plus two or three units.
>>
>> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
>> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
>> connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the
>> airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.
>>
>
>
> And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown....
> ran it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down pipe
> then across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)

....and it worked?

On 13/01/2022 18:39, Woody wrote:
> On Thu 13/01/2022 18:33, SH wrote:
>> On 13/01/2022 16:48, Woody wrote:
>>> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>>>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be
>>>>> a pain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>>>>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here
>>>>> would be able to comment on that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>>>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>>>
>>>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave,
>>>> Long Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>>>
>>>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>>>> verse.....
>>>>
>>>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to
>>>> fit some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms
>>>> to give me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>>>
>>>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>>>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>>>> sockets dotted around the house.....   Even the garage and the
>>>> kitche got the same treatment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do
>>> work and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band
>>> which is not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router
>>> plus two or three units.
>>>
>>> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
>>> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
>>> connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside
>>> the airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown....
>> ran it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down
>> pipe then across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)
>
> ...and it worked?
>

of course.......

I had a patch panel in loft so the ethernet cable was punched down into
that and then into the back of a cat5e module mounted in a faceplate...

SH <i.love@spam.com> wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 18:39, Woody wrote:
>> On Thu 13/01/2022 18:33, SH wrote:
>>> On 13/01/2022 16:48, Woody wrote:
>>>> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>>>>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be
>>>>>> a pain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>>>>>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here
>>>>>> would be able to comment on that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>>>>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>>>>
>>>>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave,
>>>>> Long Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>>>>> verse.....
>>>>>
>>>>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to
>>>>> fit some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms
>>>>> to give me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>>>>
>>>>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>>>>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>>>>> sockets dotted around the house.....   Even the garage and the
>>>>> kitche got the same treatment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do
>>>> work and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band
>>>> which is not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router
>>>> plus two or three units.
>>>>
>>>> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
>>>> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
>>>> connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside
>>>> the airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown....
>>> ran it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down
>>> pipe then across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)
>>
>> ...and it worked?
>>
>
> of course.......
>
> I had a patch panel in loft so the ethernet cable was punched down into
> that and then into the back of a cat5e module mounted in a faceplate...
>

Given the OP says wiring will be a pain I assume Ethernet cable is not an
option. I’d second the recommendation for a mesh network. You need a 3
radio per unit version. 2.5 and 5GHz plus an additional hidden 5GHz that
links the units together. I have a Linksys Velop system and it works well.
If the house has a wooden upstairs floor place the units upstairs and let
them shine down into the ground floor. Wood is pretty transparent to RF.

"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:srpl44$h8n$1@dont-email.me...
>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>> sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche got
>> the same treatment.

The difficulty is retro-fitting cable to an existing house, without failing
the SWMBO-it-must-not-be visible test. That is the only advantage of
power-line networking - that the cables are already buried in trunking and
are therefore hidden.

> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
> and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is not
> normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or three
> units.

I can certainly vouch for the Linksys Velop system. It works fine and gives
good transfer rates, and seamless comms as you walk round the house from one
node to another, even for data-hungry apps like watching a video.

The only problem I have with ours is that it is not resilient to power cuts.
It requires nodes to be turned on in sequence: primary, followed by one node
at a time. This is because we need 2.4 GHz to feed devices that cannot speak
5 GHz, or to provide longer-range 2.4 GHz from just one node to cover the
outhouses and garden. We need 6 nodes to cover our house, because of thick
walls inside as well as out, and that uses up all the available 2.4 GHz
channels. It's a shame you can't have blanket 5 GHz coverage and only enable
2.4 GHz on the few nodes that have 2.4-only devices in range, which would
only need two non-overlapping channels (eg 1 and 6, or 6 and 11) - one for
the security cameras and another for the garden.

> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need connections.
> One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the airing cupboard
> and then under the upstairs floors.

Which means lifting carpets and floorboards. That sort of cabling is best
done before the house is occupied by furniture and carpet and before the
walls have been papered.

In article <59aa15e7eenoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
> > be a pain.

> > Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
> > suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
> > knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.

> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.

> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.

+1

Bob.

"Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:59aa4f40dcbob@sick-of-spam.invalid...
> In article <59aa15e7eenoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
> Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
>> > be a pain.
>
>> > Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
>> > suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
>> > knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.
>
>> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
>> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
>> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
>
>> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
>
> +1

Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect broadcast
comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline interference I
believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to avoid MW radio
530-1300 kHz approx.

Powerline was a great idea *in theory* in that it used exsisting wiring and
so didn't require any unsightly channels to be cut in your papered wall or
floorboards to be listed to lay Cat 5+ (which is incontrovertibly the best
way to do things proving you can tolerate the mess while it is installed).

But it causes too much interference and it has very limited usable range.
Our house is L-shaped with several ring mains: upstairs and downstairs in
one part of the house with one consumer unit. ditto for another consumer
unit fed from the same meter. But I found that power line devices failed to
communicate at more than a few tens of kbps (out of a stated maximum of 200
Mbps) even between adjacent sockets on the same ring main and the same
consumer unit. And there was very chance if you needed to span ring mains
and none at all if you spanned CUs.

I tested with two powerline devices connected by Ethernet to two different
laptops. With them in the two sockets of a double-socket, I got about 150
Mbps. Move one to a socket on the other side of the room (proved to be same
ring main because the same MCB turns off both sockets) and it dropped to
about 50 Mbps. Move to the next room, 5 Mbps. Move a bit further, 1 Mbps. By
this stage, you've only covered a bit of the house - there are still many
more rooms to cover. I did wonder about trying for two isolated powerline
networks on the two different CUs, with a bit of Ethernet between powerlines
in the two closest sockets on different CUs.

I was all set to try to run Cat 5 through the lofts (plural), with branches
feeding wifi access points to cover the various bedrooms where we might want
to use portable devices, and a proper Ethernet feed to static computers. The
we heard about mesh networking and that's what we opted for. Still with Cat
5 to static computers in my study, and wifi for everywhere else which tends
only to access the internet, and where faster comms between computers on my
LAN are less needed.

On Thu 13/01/2022 20:53, NY wrote:
> "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:59aa4f40dcbob@sick-of-spam.invalid...
>> In article <59aa15e7eenoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
>>   Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> > I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
>>> > be a pain.
>>
>>> > Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
>>> > suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
>>> > knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.
>>
>>> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
>>> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
>>> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
>>
>>> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
>>
>> +1
>
> Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
> standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect
> broadcast comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline
> interference I believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to
> avoid MW radio 530-1300 kHz approx.
>
> Powerline was a great idea *in theory* in that it used exsisting wiring
> and so didn't require any unsightly channels to be cut in your papered
> wall or floorboards to be listed to lay Cat 5+ (which is
> incontrovertibly the best way to do things proving you can tolerate the
> mess while it is installed).
>
> But it causes too much interference and it has very limited usable
> range. Our house is L-shaped with several ring mains: upstairs and
> downstairs in one part of the house with one consumer unit. ditto for
> another consumer unit fed from the same meter. But I found that power
> line devices failed to communicate at more than a few tens of kbps (out
> of a stated maximum of 200 Mbps) even between adjacent sockets on the
> same ring main and the same consumer unit. And there was very chance if
> you needed to span ring mains and none at all if you spanned CUs.
>
> I tested with two powerline devices connected by Ethernet to two
> different laptops. With them in the two sockets of a double-socket, I
> got about 150 Mbps. Move one to a socket on the other side of the room
> (proved to be same ring main because the same MCB turns off both
> sockets) and it dropped to about 50 Mbps. Move to the next room, 5 Mbps.
> Move a bit further, 1 Mbps. By this stage, you've only covered a bit of
> the house - there are still many more rooms to cover. I did wonder about
> trying for two isolated powerline networks on the two different CUs,
> with a bit of Ethernet between powerlines in the two closest sockets on
> different CUs.
>
> I was all set to try to run Cat 5 through the lofts (plural), with
> branches feeding wifi access points to cover the various bedrooms where
> we might want to use portable devices, and a proper Ethernet feed to
> static computers. The we heard about mesh networking and that's what we
> opted for. Still with Cat 5 to static computers in my study, and wifi
> for everywhere else which tends only to access the internet, and where
> faster comms between computers on my LAN are less needed.

I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
(built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable
to the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.

I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Thu 13/01/2022 20:53, NY wrote:
>> "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:59aa4f40dcbob@sick-of-spam.invalid...
>>> In article <59aa15e7eenoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
>>>   Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
>>>>> be a pain.
>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
>>>>> suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
>>>>> knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.
>>>
>>>> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
>>>> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
>>>> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
>>>
>>>> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
>> standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect
>> broadcast comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline
>> interference I believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to
>> avoid MW radio 530-1300 kHz approx.
>>
>> Powerline was a great idea *in theory* in that it used exsisting wiring
>> and so didn't require any unsightly channels to be cut in your papered
>> wall or floorboards to be listed to lay Cat 5+ (which is
>> incontrovertibly the best way to do things proving you can tolerate the
>> mess while it is installed).
>>
>> But it causes too much interference and it has very limited usable
>> range. Our house is L-shaped with several ring mains: upstairs and
>> downstairs in one part of the house with one consumer unit. ditto for
>> another consumer unit fed from the same meter. But I found that power
>> line devices failed to communicate at more than a few tens of kbps (out
>> of a stated maximum of 200 Mbps) even between adjacent sockets on the
>> same ring main and the same consumer unit. And there was very chance if
>> you needed to span ring mains and none at all if you spanned CUs.
>>
>> I tested with two powerline devices connected by Ethernet to two
>> different laptops. With them in the two sockets of a double-socket, I
>> got about 150 Mbps. Move one to a socket on the other side of the room
>> (proved to be same ring main because the same MCB turns off both
>> sockets) and it dropped to about 50 Mbps. Move to the next room, 5 Mbps.
>> Move a bit further, 1 Mbps. By this stage, you've only covered a bit of
>> the house - there are still many more rooms to cover. I did wonder about
>> trying for two isolated powerline networks on the two different CUs,
>> with a bit of Ethernet between powerlines in the two closest sockets on
>> different CUs.
>>
>> I was all set to try to run Cat 5 through the lofts (plural), with
>> branches feeding wifi access points to cover the various bedrooms where
>> we might want to use portable devices, and a proper Ethernet feed to
>> static computers. The we heard about mesh networking and that's what we
>> opted for. Still with Cat 5 to static computers in my study, and wifi
>> for everywhere else which tends only to access the internet, and where
>> faster comms between computers on my LAN are less needed.
>
>
> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable
> to the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
>
> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.
>
Just as a point of information, my mesh network sustains my Virgin Media
200Mbit/sec data rate all over my house.

On Fri 14/01/2022 08:24, Tweed wrote:
> Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On Thu 13/01/2022 20:53, NY wrote:
>>> "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:59aa4f40dcbob@sick-of-spam.invalid...
>>>> In article <59aa15e7eenoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
>>>>   Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In article <xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
>>>>>> be a pain.
>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
>>>>>> suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
>>>>>> knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
>>>>> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
>>>>> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
>>>>
>>>>> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
>>> standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect
>>> broadcast comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline
>>> interference I believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to
>>> avoid MW radio 530-1300 kHz approx.
>>>
>>> Powerline was a great idea *in theory* in that it used exsisting wiring
>>> and so didn't require any unsightly channels to be cut in your papered
>>> wall or floorboards to be listed to lay Cat 5+ (which is
>>> incontrovertibly the best way to do things proving you can tolerate the
>>> mess while it is installed).
>>>
>>> But it causes too much interference and it has very limited usable
>>> range. Our house is L-shaped with several ring mains: upstairs and
>>> downstairs in one part of the house with one consumer unit. ditto for
>>> another consumer unit fed from the same meter. But I found that power
>>> line devices failed to communicate at more than a few tens of kbps (out
>>> of a stated maximum of 200 Mbps) even between adjacent sockets on the
>>> same ring main and the same consumer unit. And there was very chance if
>>> you needed to span ring mains and none at all if you spanned CUs.
>>>
>>> I tested with two powerline devices connected by Ethernet to two
>>> different laptops. With them in the two sockets of a double-socket, I
>>> got about 150 Mbps. Move one to a socket on the other side of the room
>>> (proved to be same ring main because the same MCB turns off both
>>> sockets) and it dropped to about 50 Mbps. Move to the next room, 5 Mbps.
>>> Move a bit further, 1 Mbps. By this stage, you've only covered a bit of
>>> the house - there are still many more rooms to cover. I did wonder about
>>> trying for two isolated powerline networks on the two different CUs,
>>> with a bit of Ethernet between powerlines in the two closest sockets on
>>> different CUs.
>>>
>>> I was all set to try to run Cat 5 through the lofts (plural), with
>>> branches feeding wifi access points to cover the various bedrooms where
>>> we might want to use portable devices, and a proper Ethernet feed to
>>> static computers. The we heard about mesh networking and that's what we
>>> opted for. Still with Cat 5 to static computers in my study, and wifi
>>> for everywhere else which tends only to access the internet, and where
>>> faster comms between computers on my LAN are less needed.
>>
>>
>> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
>> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
>> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
>> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
>> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
>> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
>> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
>> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
>> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable
>> to the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
>>
>> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.
>>
> Just as a point of information, my mesh network sustains my Virgin Media
> 200Mbit/sec data rate all over my house.
>

Domestically I ran a CAT5e gigabit cable from the router to upstairs at
the other end of the house on a CAT5e external grade cable partly
external over 20 years ago. It there goes into a Cisco 16-port gigabit
switch and feeds out to all other equipments. I have only two items - a
HP Laserjet printer and a Cisco PAP2T ATA - that are not gigabit capable.
Wifi from the main router hits most of the house quite well on both
bands, but I have a BTHH5 configured as an access point off the switch
to give improved coverage. We get about 30Mb on 2G4Hz and over double
that on 5GHz in most of the house and within maybe 10m (5GHz) outside
dependent on how much brick is in the way.

Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate. Think about the
bandwidth used by your internet or local network, and superimpose that on
the frequencies from about 3MHz upwards. Ofcom only require the vendors to
put notches in for the radio ham bands, not the international broadcast
bands. The interference manifest itself as various whining noises
superimposed onto a ticking that sounds like an old car which had no
suppression with a fast tick over.

OK there are many other devices around the home that also radiate rfi, like
switch mode wall warts, TVs and even microwaves, but none of these
intentionally create huge signals on the wiring. They need to be quite
powerful to get around the losses inherent in a system with lots of other
things attached to it, and so we are left with a mess.

It used to be quite fun listening around the short waves for all sorts of
users, but now, sadly its almost impossible unless you move well away from
any buildings and often any mains supply, and use batteries.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0ncthcs19svj5001@news.individual.net...
>
> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
> If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is

Yes I took my cable up through the ceiling under the airing cupboard , which
was actually quite easy to do. Just one wire up the wall.
Upstairs I have a network switcher and there is quite enough speed for what
most want to do.
In any case if you want to use things like speakers of the Amazon kind,
they only work via Wifi and the later ones have more bands. Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:srpl44$h8n$1@dont-email.me...
> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
>>> pain.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
>>> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
>>> to comment on that.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>
>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>
>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
>> Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>
>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>> verse.....
>>
>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
>> some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to give
>> me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>
>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>> sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche got
>> the same treatment.
>>
>>
>
> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
> and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is not
> normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or three
> units.
>
> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need connections.
> One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the airing cupboard
> and then under the upstairs floors.
>

Watch out for the Rats though, they seem to love the outer insulation on
outdoor cables for some reason.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"SH" <i.love@spam.com> wrote in message news:srpr91$uo6$1@dont-email.me...
> On 13/01/2022 16:48, Woody wrote:
>> On Thu 13/01/2022 08:49, SH wrote:
>>> On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
>>>> pain.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
>>>> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be
>>>> able to comment on that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
>>> antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.
>>>
>>> They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
>>> Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)
>>>
>>> Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and
>>> verse.....
>>>
>>> what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
>>> some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to give
>>> me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house
>>>
>>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>>> sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche got
>>> the same treatment.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
>> and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is
>> not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or
>> three units.
>>
>> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
>> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need connections.
>> One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the airing cupboard
>> and then under the upstairs floors.
>>
>
>
> And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown.... ran
> it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down pipe then
> across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)

"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:srrao7$89i$1@dont-email.me...

[snip: my account of spectacularly poor data transfer dates with Powerline]

> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable to
> the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
>
> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.

I had been using a pair of WD Livewire (*) devices at our old house (2 ring
mains, one CU - nice and simple) to get Ethernet from the router to a TV or
PVR which only had Ethernet and no wifi. It gave perfectly good results,
though I forget what speed.

I tried those in our new house, and also a pair of Dlink DHP-500AV devices
for comparison, and in both cases the results were dramatically worse. In
both cases I was using like with like, rather than Dlink talking to WD.

I can only think that there is something about the wiring in our house which
spoils the Powerline signal. I can understand that going from one ring main
to another *might* cause extra denaturing of the signal, and going from one
CU to the other will probably cause more of it, but I don't see why two
sockets about 20 feet apart on the same ring main should be *so* bad.

It's the first time I've had such severe problems with Powerline.

When I can find an AM radio and power it up, I'll plug the devices in and
see whether I can detect any interference in the LW or MW band that is
attributable to Powerline. I can't test the effect on amateur radio bands.

Another oddity of powerline networks is that at least around here, some
manage to also work two houses down the street but not in the in between
houses. I would imagine this means that the signals are not getting to the
phases of the mains on the intervening properties. When there used to be
analogue wireless intercoms plugged into the mains, the same effect could be
seen, so watch it with older baby monitors.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Peter Johnson" <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote in message
news:h5o0ugh9cb5qk2bha4kfp6rrmuqsnumq90@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:39:11 +0000, Indy Jess John
> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I eventually ran a long (50 metre) Cat5e ethernet cable upstairs and put
>>an 8-port ethernet switch on the end of it to regenerate any losses from
>>the long cable and that worked perfectly. The powerlines are now back
>>in their box, and I have used another of the ports off the upstairs
>>switch for a NAS device because I had the flexibility to do that.
>>
> +1 to running CAT5e ethernet via the outside from my office to the
> attic where there is a switch, the DVR and a Synology NAS, and PoE
> CCTV cameras connected to the switch.
> A few years ago, when I had some work done in the hall which included
> the installation of laminate flooring, I took the opportunity to run
> more CAT5e from the office, under the laminate floor, to CAT5e and
> RJ45 sockets in the the hall and the integral garage.
> Lasy year I installed a pair of
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0939VVZZ8, one in the office and
> one in the attic. Subjectively, connecting the DVR to ports 9 or 10
> result in in it displaying the CCTV noticeably faster than when I used
> Netgear switches.

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
> stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
> birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
> never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate. Think about the
> bandwidth used by your internet or local network, and superimpose that on
> the frequencies from about 3MHz upwards. Ofcom only require the vendors to
> put notches in for the radio ham bands, not the international broadcast
> bands. The interference manifest itself as various whining noises
> superimposed onto a ticking that sounds like an old car which had no
> suppression with a fast tick over.
>
> OK there are many other devices around the home that also radiate rfi, like
> switch mode wall warts, TVs and even microwaves, but none of these
> intentionally create huge signals on the wiring. They need to be quite
> powerful to get around the losses inherent in a system with lots of other
> things attached to it, and so we are left with a mess.
>
>
> It used to be quite fun listening around the short waves for all sorts of
> users, but now, sadly its almost impossible unless you move well away from
> any buildings and often any mains supply, and use batteries.
> Brian
>

Short Wave listening is a dead duck for a number of reasons, PLTs being a
distant cause. There’s so many poorly designed switched mode power supplies
in all sorts of domestic equipment that the whole HF RF spectrum is being
sprayed with crud. Then we come to the fact that you can listen to almost
any overseas broadcaster via the Internet that attempting to use HF radio
is pretty pointless.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:srrao7$89i$1@dont-email.me...
>
> [snip: my account of spectacularly poor data transfer dates with Powerline]
>
>> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
>> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
>> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
>> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
>> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
>> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
>> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
>> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
>> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable to
>> the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
>>
>> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.
>
> I had been using a pair of WD Livewire (*) devices at our old house (2 ring
> mains, one CU - nice and simple) to get Ethernet from the router to a TV or
> PVR which only had Ethernet and no wifi. It gave perfectly good results,
> though I forget what speed.
>
> I tried those in our new house, and also a pair of Dlink DHP-500AV devices
> for comparison, and in both cases the results were dramatically worse. In
> both cases I was using like with like, rather than Dlink talking to WD.
>
> I can only think that there is something about the wiring in our house which
> spoils the Powerline signal. I can understand that going from one ring main
> to another *might* cause extra denaturing of the signal, and going from one
> CU to the other will probably cause more of it, but I don't see why two
> sockets about 20 feet apart on the same ring main should be *so* bad.
>
> It's the first time I've had such severe problems with Powerline.
>
>
> When I can find an AM radio and power it up, I'll plug the devices in and
> see whether I can detect any interference in the LW or MW band that is
> attributable to Powerline. I can't test the effect on amateur radio bands.
>
>

The problems I’ve found with power line adapters is interference from other
devices plugged in. A simple test will show a respectable throughput, but
long term you get periodic dropouts, when fridge motors, washing machines
etc start up. The link does recover, but it’s not ideal for the likes of
video calls.

On 14/01/2022 09:53, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
> stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
> birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
> never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate.
Well, overhead phone cables were never intended to carry RF either, but
they do thanks to ADSL etc.

I remember a few years ago driving in France trying to listen to R4
Droitwich. There was interference when driving along side telephone cables.

Back to power adaptors. Never used them myself, but in sorting out
others I've discovered they don't work well when plugged into 'flying
lead' extension blocks.
Try to use them plugged into the actual wall socket.