On 19/01/2022 12:08, Java Jive wrote:
> On 19/01/2022 00:11, Indy Jess John wrote:
>>
>> On 18/01/2022 16:07, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> On 18/01/2022 12:25, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Given how many people may be affected, maybe there's a
>>>> business-model in
>>>> some people offerring a 'works in a famiiliar way' service that
>>>> installs a
>>>> Doze-alike linux setup and helping previously doze-captured people
>>>> to use
>>>> it. If nothing else it might embarass/pressure MS into actually helping
>>>> people rather than facilitating ripping them off.
>>>
>>> It's a long time since I tried it, but I thought that was the thinking
>>> behind PCLinuxOS?
>>
>> Underlying the later Apple Mac computers is a Unix core with the Mac
>> GUI, a combination which was maintained by Apple.
>>
>> It is difficult to see how PCLinuxOS could continue to look like
>> Windows without Microsoft's co-operation, and why would they do that?
>
> AFAIAA, PCLinuxOS is maintained, like many distros, by volunteers, their
> problem being to make the 'Look & Feel' like Windows enough to be easy
> for Windows users to adapt to, while making it different enough to avoid
> Microsoft suing.
>

Just like Aldi then! :-)

"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:6q3duglb0afhp3beflfjrfsjge1l2uv0r2@4ax.com...
>
> It's forced obsolescence. We're in for a similar story in 2025 when
> support for Windows 10 runs out and the world discovers the full
> significance of the fact that more than half of all computers will not
> run Windows 11. Because Microsoft has decided not to allow it.

There's a very simple workaround to bypass the "lockout" that
MS have imposed to prevent installation on older hardware.
It installed on a machine from 2010 here without problems.

Driver compatibility remains an issue for some however - that
depends on the specific hardware you're using, and isn't
guaranteed.

In article <ss6okg$5ok$2@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
> > Given how many people may be affected, maybe there's a business-model
> > in some people offerring a 'works in a famiiliar way' service that
> > installs a Doze-alike linux setup and helping previously doze-captured
> > people to use it. If nothing else it might embarass/pressure MS into
> > actually helping people rather than facilitating ripping them off.

> It's a long time since I tried it, but I thought that was the thinking
> behind PCLinuxOS?

I can't recall the name(s) but I think there have been attempts in the
past.

I suspect they've tended not to become adopted for a variety of reasons
based largely on people being 'trained' into using Windows and its standard
progs, not educated to be able to use computers. Certainly in the UK some
decades ago arrangements in schools changed when they were forced to take
on governing boards that included local 'promotors' of Doze PCs who wanted
the students trained for office jobs, not have them learn about computing
or how to program. Training and habituation tended to replace education.

The result has been "Keep a tight grip of nurse for fear of something
worse" amongst those who emerge in many cases. Curiously, at much the same
time FE and apprenticeships had much support removed and students were
encouraged to feel that they had to go to Uni and get a 'degree'.

Also, of course, most people have no real idea about Linux or believe it is
like it was some decades ago and that you have to spend all your time
typing arcane commands into a terminal, and it taking great skill/patience
to install.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <ss7kuq$49o$2@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> On 18/01/2022 16:07, Java Jive wrote:
> > On 18/01/2022 12:25, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> >>
> >> Given how many people may be affected, maybe there's a business-model
> >> in some people offerring a 'works in a famiiliar way' service that
> >> installs a Doze-alike linux setup and helping previously
> >> doze-captured people to use it. If nothing else it might
> >> embarass/pressure MS into actually helping people rather than
> >> facilitating ripping them off.
> >
> > It's a long time since I tried it, but I thought that was the thinking
> > behind PCLinuxOS?
> >
> Underlying the later Apple Mac computers is a Unix core with the Mac
> GUI, a combination which was maintained by Apple.

> It is difficult to see how PCLinuxOS could continue to look like Windows
> without Microsoft's co-operation, and why would they do that?

You probably can't make it identical down to all the icons, etc. But can
make it generally behave in the same ways in terms of interface and put the
visual changes into the 'user customised' range. MS don't own the concept
of the WIMP, etc.

FWIW I tend to use ROX-Filer on Linux as it gives me an interface
reasonably like my preferred RISC OS desktop. But one of the points of
Linux is that it can be arranged to present as the user wishs.

BTW IIUC MS have contributed code to Linux. I think they've also
'borrowed' from some Linux ideas as well. But can't really say as I stopped
needing to ever use MS some decades ago, thank heavens.

The real hurdle is, I think, as I wrote earlier. That people have either
never heard of Linux, or have been lead to feel it is "too difficult" in
some way. So don't try it. Given that most people have little background in
computing *outwith* using MS or specific things at work, they shy away. It
is understandable, but a mental trap. Similarly, I guess many people don't
think of items like a modern 'mobile device' as a 'computer', either.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <59ad30f4adnoise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ss6okg$5ok$2@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> > > Given how many people may be affected, maybe there's a business-model
> > > in some people offerring a 'works in a famiiliar way' service that
> > > installs a Doze-alike linux setup and helping previously doze-captured
> > > people to use it. If nothing else it might embarass/pressure MS into
> > > actually helping people rather than facilitating ripping them off.

> > It's a long time since I tried it, but I thought that was the thinking
> > behind PCLinuxOS?

> I can't recall the name(s) but I think there have been attempts in the
> past.

> I suspect they've tended not to become adopted for a variety of reasons
> based largely on people being 'trained' into using Windows and its
> standard progs, not educated to be able to use computers. Certainly in
> the UK some decades ago arrangements in schools changed when they were
> forced to take on governing boards that included local 'promotors' of
> Doze PCs

[Snip]
My wife's school went Windows because 'kind' parents passed on their out of
date machines when they re-equipped their offices.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article <59ad4dcaf9charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <59ad30f4adnoise@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ss6okg$5ok$2@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
> > <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > > Given how many people may be affected, maybe there's a
> > > > business-model in some people offerring a 'works in a famiiliar
> > > > way' service that installs a Doze-alike linux setup and helping
> > > > previously doze-captured people to use it. If nothing else it might
> > > > embarass/pressure MS into actually helping people rather than
> > > > facilitating ripping them off.

> > > It's a long time since I tried it, but I thought that was the
> > > thinking behind PCLinuxOS?

> > I can't recall the name(s) but I think there have been attempts in the
> > past.

> > I suspect they've tended not to become adopted for a variety of reasons
> > based largely on people being 'trained' into using Windows and its
> > standard progs, not educated to be able to use computers. Certainly in
> > the UK some decades ago arrangements in schools changed when they were
> > forced to take on governing boards that included local 'promotors' of
> > Doze PCs

> [Snip] My wife's school went Windows because 'kind' parents passed on
> their out of date machines when they re-equipped their offices.

I should have said "the school she taught at ...."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 19/01/2022 17:04, charles wrote:

>> [Snip] My wife's school went Windows because 'kind' parents passed on
>> their out of date machines when they re-equipped their offices.
>
> I should have said "the school she taught at ...."
>

I think we all assumed you meant the one where she was a cleaner...

Bill

On side-glances at this thread, I keep reading the title as something to
do with Airfix.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:53:21 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>> It is difficult to see how PCLinuxOS could continue to look like Windows
>> without Microsoft's co-operation, and why would they do that?
>
>You probably can't make it identical down to all the icons, etc. But can
>make it generally behave in the same ways in terms of interface and put the
>visual changes into the 'user customised' range.

Linux Mint pretty much fulfills that requirement already without any
further customising at all-

Taskbar along the bottom of the screen - check.
(They don't call it a taskbar, but it's the same thing)

Button at bottom left corner to bring up a menu - check.

Info area at bottom right corner - check.

Windows that can be maximised, minimised resized, snapped left or
right and closed with the same controls as Windows - check.

Thus, all the main controls work in much the same way, and the rest is
just detail. Anyone who has a Windows computer, an iPhone and a TV
streaming device and thinks they couldn't cope with different
operating systems needs to have it pointed out that they already do.

Rod.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:22:52 -0000, "Alexander" <none@nowhere.fr>
wrote:

>
>"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:6q3duglb0afhp3beflfjrfsjge1l2uv0r2@4ax.com...
>>
>> It's forced obsolescence. We're in for a similar story in 2025 when
>> support for Windows 10 runs out and the world discovers the full
>> significance of the fact that more than half of all computers will not
>> run Windows 11. Because Microsoft has decided not to allow it.
>
>There's a very simple workaround to bypass the "lockout" that
>MS have imposed to prevent installation on older hardware.
>It installed on a machine from 2010 here without problems.
>
>Driver compatibility remains an issue for some however - that
>depends on the specific hardware you're using, and isn't
>guaranteed.

Could you tell us what this "very simple" workaround is? All the ones
I've seen described require several operations including diving into
obscure settings screens and meddling with registry settings.

In any case, it's clear that Microsoft are prepared to do something
deliberate to prevent their software working on hardware they don't
approve of, so there's no guarantee that they wouldn't block any
attempts to subvert this. I'd rather use something I can depend on.

Rod.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:37:19 +0000, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
wrote:

>>> [Snip] My wife's school went Windows because 'kind' parents passed on
>>> their out of date machines when they re-equipped their offices.
>>
>> I should have said "the school she taught at ...."
>>
>
> I think we all assumed you meant the one where she was a cleaner...

I think you mean a hygiene engineering technician.

What do they call dinner ladies these days?

On 23/01/2022 00:58, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:37:19 +0000, williamwright<wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> [Snip] My wife's school went Windows because 'kind' parents passed on
>>>> their out of date machines when they re-equipped their offices.
>>>
>>> I should have said "the school she taught at ...."
>>>
>>
>> I think we all assumed you meant the one where she was a cleaner...
>
> I think you mean a hygiene engineering technician.
>
> What do they call dinner ladies these days?

Prestidigitators? They have to be magicians these days to make
nourishing meals from the paltry "per head" target.

Jim

On 23/01/2022 11:08, Indy Jess John wrote:

> Prestidigitators?  They have to be magicians these days to make
> nourishing meals from the paltry "per head" target.
>
> Jim

No reason why the cost to parents can't be increased. Poor families get
free dinners anyway.

Bill

In article <j54u49FcbndU3@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 23/01/2022 11:08, Indy Jess John wrote:

> > Prestidigitators? They have to be magicians these days to make
> > nourishing meals from the paltry "per head" target.
> >
> > Jim

> No reason why the cost to parents can't be increased. Poor families get
> free dinners anyway.

The risk is that the number of children who fail to get decent nourishment
might then increase because of "cannae be bothered" parents who can
(allegedly) "afford to pay"... but simply don't.

Thus enabling harm to children. Unless, of course, you also want intrusive
'inspectors' to go round checking and fining people who they decide haven't
provided for their kids as per regulations.

Given that the general education is paid for via taxation (inc rates)
rather than demand parents cough up, and that decent nourishment is needed
for children to learn effectively, it makes more sense for meals to simply
be a part of the basis of education at school, and thus funded via
taxation/rates. This helps avoid some children having an education limited
by the failures of their parents.

The main downside is that selfish skinflints might have to pay towards the
support of children. Not just fall on the 'Scrooge Excuse' - "Are there no
workhouses?"

Hence perhaps not quite "no reason" in reality. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html