Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't consider
today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal with...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

On 25/01/2022 09:43, TWP wrote:
> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't consider
> today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal with...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

(This is the agreement to respect Ukraine's territory in exchange for
the large numbers of nuclear weapons that Ukraine could probably disable
but couldn't independently fire at anyone. This agreement was also with
the US and UK)

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:43:06 +0000
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't
> consider today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal
> with...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

That's just a side-show.

We can pretend we don't understand why Putin is upset as we break our promises not to push NATO forces up against Russia's border, as we provide troops and "lethal aid" to enemies of Russia, as we threaten Russia's sovereignty.

We can lie that we aren't trying to provoke war with Russia when that is exactly what we are doing.

This is a continuation of the effort by US and UK to provoke a proxy war between the EU and Russia which was started under Obama, by Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nulland.

The only question is whether the US, UK and NATO will get their war or will be forced to back down.

On 25/01/2022 13:13, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:43:06 +0000
> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't
>> consider today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal
>> with...
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
>
> That's just a side-show.
>
> We can pretend we don't understand why Putin is upset as we break our promises not to push NATO forces up against Russia's border, as we provide troops and "lethal aid" to enemies of Russia, as we threaten Russia's sovereignty.
>
> We can lie that we aren't trying to provoke war with Russia when that is exactly what we are doing.
>
> This is a continuation of the effort by US and UK to provoke a proxy war between the EU and Russia which was started under Obama, by Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nulland.
>
> The only question is whether the US, UK and NATO will get their war or will be forced to back down.
>

We can also pretend not to remember the extremes that Russia has gone to
in the past to have a buffer zone against the West, such as the
subjugation of Eastern Europe and the millions of people therein. Are
we doing that?

>
> We can also pretend not to remember the extremes that Russia has gone to
> in the past to have a buffer zone against the West, such as the
> subjugation of Eastern Europe and the millions of people therein.  Are
> we doing that?
>

Really there should have been a war then.

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 17:09:01 +0000
TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 25/01/2022 13:13, The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:43:06 +0000
> > TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't
> >> consider today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal
> >> with...
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
> >>
> >
> > That's just a side-show.
> >
> > We can pretend we don't understand why Putin is upset as we break
> > our promises not to push NATO forces up against Russia's border, as
> > we provide troops and "lethal aid" to enemies of Russia, as we
> > threaten Russia's sovereignty.
> >
> > We can lie that we aren't trying to provoke war with Russia when
> > that is exactly what we are doing.
> >
> > This is a continuation of the effort by US and UK to provoke a
> > proxy war between the EU and Russia which was started under Obama,
> > by Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nulland.
> >
> > The only question is whether the US, UK and NATO will get their war
> > or will be forced to back down.
>
> We can also pretend not to remember the extremes that Russia has gone
> to in the past to have a buffer zone against the West, such as the
> subjugation of Eastern Europe and the millions of people therein.
> Are we doing that?

The people of Eastern Ukraine say we are doing exactly that.

I am not convinced the British Empire handed out invites to be subjugated and oppressed.

TWP wrote:
> On 25/01/2022 13:13, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:43:06 +0000
>> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't
>>> consider today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal
>>> with...
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
>>
>> That's just a side-show.
>>
>> We can pretend we don't understand why Putin is upset as we break our
>> promises not to push NATO forces up against Russia's border, as we
>> provide troops and "lethal aid" to enemies of Russia, as we threaten
>> Russia's sovereignty.
>>
>> We can lie that we aren't trying to provoke war with Russia when that
>> is exactly what we are doing.
>>
>> This is a continuation of the effort by US and UK to provoke a proxy
>> war between the EU and Russia which was started under Obama, by
>> Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nulland.
>>
>> The only question is whether the US, UK and NATO will get their war or
>> will be forced to back down.
>>
>
> We can also pretend not to remember the extremes that Russia has gone to
> in the past to have a buffer zone against the West, such as the
> subjugation of Eastern Europe and the millions of people therein.  Are
> we doing that?
>
>
>

There is enough blame to go around, on the one hand it was an insulting
mistake for NATO to snuggle up with Ukraine and refuse to rule out the
possibility of NATO membership and also to float the possibility of NATO
membership.
We could have had a decent relationship with Ukraine both politically
and militarily without forging political pacts and military alliances ,,
And just see what a disaster that would have been if we were bound, ALA
1939 Poland, to come to Ukraine's aid if attacked - As it stands, US
personnel are the 1st to scamper out under Bolshevik orders, and no one
is seriously talking about intervening and risk WW3 over what has always
been and always will be due to simple geography a prime Soviet bailiwick.

On the other hand yes, Russia has always been a domineering,
invading/occupying threat to each and every one of her neighbors and I
think theres no doubt Putin calculated the time is ripe for Soviet Union
version 2, and we all know how it goes once a dictators appetite for
conquest is whetted. Presumably if we are not going to stand up to the
loss of Ukraine then it will be the tiny Baltic states, and Putin will
have drawn his red line.

All bets are off but I think most likely he will orchestrate a fake
reason for invading east Ukraine and the pro Soviet Donbas region after
a few Russian soldiers/civilians are killed by a mortar attack, false
flag would be super easy to orchestrate, and in fact they have been
provoking the Ukrainians for months to fire back with mortars, snipers
and even armed drones.
This would give Xiden his out that it was a limited territorial
violation and thus might be content with useless sanctions - Lest we
forget, Xiden is highly compromised by both Russia and Ukraine, and he
was in a high position of power when the Soviets gobbled up Crimea and
didn't do a thing.

Ukraine is also highly vulnerable to amphibious attacks having almost no
navy and Russians could land almost anywhere, thus flanking the main
battle force of Ukraine facing the Donbas. There is a disputed island
called Snake Island that Russia covets, very possibly they may take that
as well and make the claim that they really didn't violate Ukraines
territory, which the weak US/EU might agree with to avoid any blood
being spilled.

Dictators obviously have a high advantage in being focused and resolute
without any internal opposition while the USA fights a defacto civil war
and obsesses with social issues - In the best of times, democracies can
make no long range plans as they are subject to overturn with new
leaders - EU actually outnumbers Russia in most military aspects, except
nuclear of course, and thats without the US or UK - But they are
fractured and disjointed offering little prospects of a coherent foreign
policy to deter Russia, and being beholden to Russia for energy supplies
sure does not help.
Germany in particular seems to have no interest in deterring Russia, and
is quite content to see the brainless giant USA flail around and react
to Russian moves while they laugh their way to the bank.

It can be assumed that if Russia makes any moves over the border that
command and control/infrastructure will be a priority target - That
being the case, we should give Ukraine to tools it needs to target and
cripple Soviet cyber infrastructure, would hurt Russia without causing
physical destruction, expose weaknesses, we'd have plausible deniability
and a little revenge for all the attacks already aimed against us.
Russia probably has Xidens handlers on notice that they would
immediately dish out dirt on the criminal Xiden family if anything like
that occurs, so I am not holding my breath for this obvious move to come
to fruition.

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:29:42 -0500
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> There is enough blame to go around, on the one hand it was an
> insulting mistake for NATO to snuggle up with Ukraine and refuse to
> rule out the possibility of NATO membership and also to float the
> possibility of NATO membership.

Exactly that. We have chosen to put pressure on Russia and should not be surprised that Russia is pushing back.

It was always quite simply "We're going to make Ukraine our bitches, turn them into western enemies against you".

> no one is seriously talking about intervening and risk
> WW3 over what has always been and always will be due to simple
> geography a prime Soviet bailiwick.

Except that is exactly what the US is threatening, trying to get any action Russia takes seen as an attack on NATO, which is an attack on all of NATO, which merits a unified military response from NATO on Russia.

The UK as pro-US lapdog is of course cheering for World War III, happily stirring the pot.

The ultimate goal is probably not to have an actual war but to plunge the EU into turmoil because both the US and UK see the EU as a threat to US supremacy. They know they can disadvantage the EU by forcing the EU to apply sanctions against Russia.

That's what it's all about; pushing Putin and Russia into an ever tighter spot, curtailing the EU's rising supremacy.

JeSSe wrote:
> TWP wrote:
>> On 25/01/2022 13:13, The Happy Hippy wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:43:06 +0000
>>> TWP <ngspammersad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apparently Putin can violate this agreement because he doesn't
>>>> consider today's Ukraine to be the same one they signed the deal
>>>> with...
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's just a side-show.
>>>
>>> We can pretend we don't understand why Putin is upset as we break our
>>> promises not to push NATO forces up against Russia's border, as we
>>> provide troops and "lethal aid" to enemies of Russia, as we threaten
>>> Russia's sovereignty.
>>>
>>> We can lie that we aren't trying to provoke war with Russia when that
>>> is exactly what we are doing.
>>>
>>> This is a continuation of the effort by US and UK to provoke a proxy
>>> war between the EU and Russia which was started under Obama, by
>>> Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nulland.
>>>
>>> The only question is whether the US, UK and NATO will get their war
>>> or will be forced to back down.
>>>
>>
>> We can also pretend not to remember the extremes that Russia has gone
>> to in the past to have a buffer zone against the West, such as the
>> subjugation of Eastern Europe and the millions of people therein.  Are
>> we doing that?
>>
>>
>>
>
> There is enough blame to go around, on the one hand it was an insulting
> mistake for NATO to snuggle up with Ukraine and refuse to rule out the
> possibility of NATO membership and also to float the possibility of EU
> membership.

Corrected

--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.