End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>
>
>

I don’t think it’s just goat herders that might be affected, if what the
article states is entirely accurate. I visited the StP ticket office on
Friday (to enquire what my options were with an advance ticket as they had
just cancelled my train) and there were several elderly ladies who quite
obviously would never make head nor tail of ordering online. Add to that a
couple of overseas visitors who haven’t had the opportunity to study GCSE
ticketing for UK railways (which seems to be necessary to understand our
arcane system) and I can still see the necessity for some sort of residual
ticket office service.

On 19/06/2022 06:42, Tweed wrote:
> I don’t think it’s just goat herders that might be affected, if what the
> article states is entirely accurate. I visited the StP ticket office on
> Friday (to enquire what my options were with an advance ticket as they had
> just cancelled my train) and there were several elderly ladies who quite
> obviously would never make head nor tail of ordering online. Add to that a
> couple of overseas visitors who haven’t had the opportunity to study GCSE
> ticketing for UK railways (which seems to be necessary to understand our
> arcane system) and I can still see the necessity for some sort of residual
> ticket office service.

I am sure there are many who do not want the hassle of finding a
computer and navigating through a (almost certainly incomprehensible)
booking system.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 19/06/2022 06:42, Tweed wrote:
>> I don’t think it’s just goat herders that might be affected, if what the
>> article states is entirely accurate. I visited the StP ticket office on
>> Friday (to enquire what my options were with an advance ticket as they had
>> just cancelled my train) and there were several elderly ladies who quite
>> obviously would never make head nor tail of ordering online. Add to that a
>> couple of overseas visitors who haven’t had the opportunity to study GCSE
>> ticketing for UK railways (which seems to be necessary to understand our
>> arcane system) and I can still see the necessity for some sort of residual
>> ticket office service.
>
> I am sure there are many who do not want the hassle of finding a
> computer and navigating through a (almost certainly incomprehensible)
> booking system.
>
>

For regular users the online systems are fine (well fine-ish, the problem
is they have to cope with the underlying ticket rules which are not fit for
purpose). However for irregular users it’s just an arcane jungle. We forget
that there is a significant chunk of society that just about cope with
life. Many of these people don’t have access to cars.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>

Going ticket office-less isn’t impossible, but surely it can’t be done with
the current labyrinth of ticket options? Something major would have to
happen to the fares structure to allow it to be simple and obvious enough
for people to feel comfortable using machines / other methods.

Lew

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>
>>
>>
>
> I don’t think it’s just goat herders that might be affected, if what the
> article states is entirely accurate. I visited the StP ticket office on
> Friday (to enquire what my options were with an advance ticket as they had
> just cancelled my train) and there were several elderly ladies who quite
> obviously would never make head nor tail of ordering online. Add to that a
> couple of overseas visitors who haven’t had the opportunity to study GCSE
> ticketing for UK railways (which seems to be necessary to understand our
> arcane system) and I can still see the necessity for some sort of residual
> ticket office service.
>
>

I assume the idea is to copy what TfL did, and have staff available to help
'customers' with the machines. The staff would also have access to extra
functionality to do more complex tasks.

In large stations, the staff would be placed near the TVMs, and would
volunteer their assistance if anyone appeared to be struggling; in smaller
stations, they may need to be summoned if needed. I suppose, in some cases,
the assistance could be remote, if no local staff were available.

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>
>
> Going ticket office-less isn’t impossible, but surely it can’t be done with
> the current labyrinth of ticket options? Something major would have to
> happen to the fares structure to allow it to be simple and obvious enough
> for people to feel comfortable using machines / other methods.
>

That's also supposed to be part of the GBR plan.

On 19/06/2022 08:21, Tweed wrote:
> However for irregular users it’s just an arcane jungle. We forget
> that there is a significant chunk of society that just about cope with
> life.

There are many who can cope with life just fine but rarely use trains
for a whole range of reasons and can remember when you just turned up at
the station and asked for a ticket to somewhere without any of these
complications.

The railways should be trying to attract passengers and not be driving
them away.

In message <t8mr1o$qpp$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:42:16 on Sun, 19 Jun
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 19/06/2022 08:21, Tweed wrote:
>> However for irregular users it’s just an arcane jungle. We forget
>> that there is a significant chunk of society that just about cope with
>> life.
>
>There are many who can cope with life just fine but rarely use trains
>for a whole range of reasons and can remember when you just turned up
>at the station and asked for a ticket to somewhere without any of these
>complications.
>
>The railways should be trying to attract passengers and not be driving
>them away.

I think especially people planning quite long trips, very likely with AP
tickets and hence also reservations, require the advice of a human
ticket seller. And then of course there's the business of "which walk-up
ticket to buy depending on how near is it to 9.30am, and when am I
coming back, and which day.

The current generation of TVMs in particular would be hopeless at any of
these. And many apps aren't much better.
--
Roland Perry

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 19/06/2022 08:21, Tweed wrote:
>> However for irregular users it’s just an arcane jungle. We forget
>> that there is a significant chunk of society that just about cope with
>> life.
>
> There are many who can cope with life just fine but rarely use trains
> for a whole range of reasons and can remember when you just turned up at
> the station and asked for a ticket to somewhere without any of these
> complications.
>
> The railways should be trying to attract passengers and not be driving
> them away.

The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.

On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.

Is that standard contactless or an "App"?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>

The timing is rather convenient, don't you think?
Suddenly this 'leak' comes out, but of course it's not an official statement
so nobody can hold them to it later. In other words, it's just negotiating
through the press with menaces.

Not to say that it doesn't have some degree of merit but, as the thread
mentioned, it's only feasible if there's a radical simplification of both
the ticketing system and improvement ticket machines.

Plus many ticket offices are only manned for short hours (the morning peak
only, for example), and staff do have other duties on the station. So
staffing is already adjusted to suit demand.

Although I suspect ticket office sales are bursty - my local station used to
have 1tph in each direction which both called within 9 minutes the top of
the hour, so they had a busy period and then a quiet period (the best time
to renew your season, book an Advance or similar tasks).

I wonder whether we'll end up with machines where you can effectively do a
Zoom call with a remote ticket agent rather than having someone on site.
That might offer a better service than a ticket office manned for a couple
of hours a day, if that. Won't do very much for the queue of people behind
them though.

Theo

In message <t8mrtl$11l$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:57:09 on Sun, 19 Jun
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 19/06/2022 08:21, Tweed wrote:
>>> However for irregular users it’s just an arcane jungle. We forget
>>> that there is a significant chunk of society that just about cope with
>>> life.
>>
>> There are many who can cope with life just fine but rarely use trains
>> for a whole range of reasons and can remember when you just turned up at
>> the station and asked for a ticket to somewhere without any of these
>> complications.
>>
>> The railways should be trying to attract passengers and not be driving
>> them away.
>
>The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.

In the early days, the roving staff spent much of their time helping
people through things like topping up their Oyster, or getting a
journey-printout, using the TVMs, when many in the past would have used
a manned window. So Londoners are probably more used to things by now.

Most of the rest of the country (and foreign tourists) are a completely
different demographic.

Also the risk of "getting it wrong" when travelling within London is
relatively low: almost no travelling grippers, and unresolved journey
fare only £8.90 for most trips, but as soon as you step onto National
Rail it'll be £40 or more, and could be into three figures for a trip
on the wrong route or at the wrong time.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:58:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>
>Is that standard contactless or an "App"?

Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything
from TfL, no need to register, no need to do anything in advance, no need to use a ticket machine. Not only is it
quicker and easier, but it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.

On 19 Jun 2022 12:13:39 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>
>
>The timing is rather convenient, don't you think?
>Suddenly this 'leak' comes out, but of course it's not an official statement
>so nobody can hold them to it later. In other words, it's just negotiating
>through the press with menaces.

Shapps has been saying that many ticket offices sell hardly any tickets:

"Nowadays, just 1 in 8 tickets is sold over the counter, yet we still have roughly the same number of ticket offices as
in the days when we all queued up at stations to buy our tickets. The quietest office sold just 17 tickets in 3 months.
That’s one ticket every 5 and a half days.

Any sensible plan would move staff away from where they are not needed, like ticket offices, and increase shifts where
they are needed, like weekends."

<https://policymogul.com/key-updates/23378/building-a-better-railway-speech-by-transport-secretary-grant-shapps?search=null>

>
>Not to say that it doesn't have some degree of merit but, as the thread
>mentioned, it's only feasible if there's a radical simplification of both
>the ticketing system and improvement ticket machines.

It's clearly needed, but any attempt to simplify fares hits the same problem: there will be (big) winners and losers, if
the average fare stays the same. The losers will scream loudly, but the winners will say little.

>
>Plus many ticket offices are only manned for short hours (the morning peak
>only, for example), and staff do have other duties on the station. So
>staffing is already adjusted to suit demand.
>
>Although I suspect ticket office sales are bursty - my local station used to
>have 1tph in each direction which both called within 9 minutes the top of
>the hour, so they had a busy period and then a quiet period (the best time
>to renew your season, book an Advance or similar tasks).
>
>I wonder whether we'll end up with machines where you can effectively do a
>Zoom call with a remote ticket agent rather than having someone on site.
>That might offer a better service than a ticket office manned for a couple
>of hours a day, if that. Won't do very much for the queue of people behind
>them though.

Yes, I think we're headed that way, with central ticket experts available to advise on the more complicated ticket
questions. At least one TVM in each station would have that facility.

In message <t8mvgu$o2m$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:39 on Sun, 19 Jun
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:

>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>
>Is that standard contactless or an "App"?

Often people use the expression CCC (contactless credit card) to avoid
confusion.

But in this case when he says "phone" he'll probably be referring to a
contactless payment method such as Apple|Google pay, and then there's
the in-between which is a banking app that emulates a credit card, such
as Amex-Pay.

Although the latter is perhaps over-sold because they claim "It's
accepted everywhere you can use your contactless Card" when I know that
hasn't been true of National Rail TVMs when I've tried.

I wonder if those TVMs accept Apple|Google Pay?

And finally there's ITSO contactless, where for example KeyGo is the GTR
brand and their map is a handy compendium of much of this maze of twisty
passages:

<https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard/keygo>

In other words PAYG on selected heavy rail lines, and you can also load
a TravelCard (and possibly other tickets valid on TfL metals) onto the
TheKey itself.

I do wonder if that map is up to date, because prepaid ticketing on the
TheKey works at least as far out as Ely, AFAICT. ie not cripple to
Foxton any more. And why wouldn't they also extend the PAYG capability,
because all that was lacking was joining up the validators to back
offices.
--
Roland Perry

In message <per*4e8Qy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:13:39 on Sun,
19 Jun 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> End of the line for railway ticket offices as sales move online
>>
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8244db02-ef41-11ec-a7ea-792e433452b
>>2?shareToken=e2fdf28963ea32800fbfc0068a0bca81>
>
>The timing is rather convenient, don't you think?
>Suddenly this 'leak' comes out, but of course it's not an official statement
>so nobody can hold them to it later. In other words, it's just negotiating
>through the press with menaces.
>
>Not to say that it doesn't have some degree of merit but, as the thread
>mentioned, it's only feasible if there's a radical simplification of both
>the ticketing system and improvement ticket machines.
>
>Plus many ticket offices are only manned for short hours (the morning peak
>only, for example), and staff do have other duties on the station. So
>staffing is already adjusted to suit demand.
>
>Although I suspect ticket office sales are bursty - my local station used to
>have 1tph in each direction which both called within 9 minutes the top of
>the hour, so they had a busy period and then a quiet period (the best time
>to renew your season, book an Advance or similar tasks).
>
>I wonder whether we'll end up with machines where you can effectively do a
>Zoom call with a remote ticket agent rather than having someone on site.
>That might offer a better service than a ticket office manned for a couple
>of hours a day, if that. Won't do very much for the queue of people behind
>them though.

And if you have TVMs with people doing protracted hand-held
transactions, you also need at least one more where it's possible
to collect pre-booked tickets without delay. The MML has long had
such two-tier machines, but I don't see them on many other lines.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:58:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
>>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>>
>> Is that standard contactless or an "App"?
>
> Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple
> Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything
> from TfL, no need to register, no need to do anything in advance, no need
> to use a ticket machine. Not only is it
> quicker and easier, but it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.
>

Also many of the groups of people that are more likely to be unable to cope
with complexity are issues with free travel passes in London.

On 19/06/2022 12:33, Recliner wrote:
> Shapps has been saying that many ticket offices sell hardly any tickets:

Don't they take telephone bookings in slack periods.

I am fairly sure that a call to Calmac can end up with any Calmac ticket
office and be handled by them. That is quite normal amongst many companies.

On 19/06/2022 12:24, Recliner wrote:
> Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything
> from TfL, no need to register, no need to do anything in advance, no need to use a ticket machine. Not only is it
> quicker and easier, but it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.

How do you prove that you have paid if you paid using a standard
contactless card if there is no paper ticket?

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:54:07 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 19/06/2022 12:33, Recliner wrote:
>> Shapps has been saying that many ticket offices sell hardly any tickets:
>
>Don't they take telephone bookings in slack periods.
>
>I am fairly sure that a call to Calmac can end up with any Calmac ticket
>office and be handled by them. That is quite normal amongst many companies.
>

I'm not talking about a phone call, but a direct AV link to the ticket machine, so the adviser can see your screen and
what you're doing on it, and talk you through the process. Perhaps they'd also be able to take over from you?

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:57:09 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 19/06/2022 12:24, Recliner wrote:
>> Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything
>> from TfL, no need to register, no need to do anything in advance, no need to use a ticket machine. Not only is it
>> quicker and easier, but it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.
>
>How do you prove that you have paid if you paid using a standard
>contactless card if there is no paper ticket?

There are very few inspectors on LU trains, but they can tell if you touched in with an Oyster card (not contactless).
If a roving inspector checks your contactless card or phone, they find out later if it was touched in, and if not, a
penalty will be charged to it.
<https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tfl-apple-pay-fare-dodging>

Most exits are barriered, and if you only touch in one direction, you end up paying the maximum fare. So most people do
touch in and out, even if the barriers are open or if there's only touch pads (as in most DLR and LO stations). Those
lines see more grippers.

You don't actually pay till the end of the capping period. In other words, a fare is calculated when you touch out, but
with OSI, another journey might be tacked on to the first one (usually making the second journey cheaper or even free),
and, with capping, cumulative fares above the cap reduce to zero if you make enough journeys in a day or week. In other
words, what starts out as a single ticket can grow into a rover.

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/pay-as-you-go-caps>

In message <ni1uah1f9mlp8fkk4rc02jmd4e8tppaovj@4ax.com>, at 12:24:21 on
Sun, 19 Jun 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:58:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
>>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>>
>>Is that standard contactless or an "App"?
>
>Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple
>Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything from TfL, no need to
>register, no need to do anything in advance,

I wonder how that works nowadays with pre-paid credit cards [which are
more accurately pre-paid debit cards], does TfL just take a commercial
risk, or might they be rejected?

>no need to use a ticket machine. Not only is it quicker and easier, but
>it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.

Again, very much a London-centric view. In the provinces there's no
discounts for contactless or m-tickets.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:42:12 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <ni1uah1f9mlp8fkk4rc02jmd4e8tppaovj@4ax.com>, at 12:24:21 on
>Sun, 19 Jun 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:58:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
>>>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>>>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>>>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>>>
>>>Is that standard contactless or an "App"?
>>
>>Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple
>>Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything from TfL, no need to
>>register, no need to do anything in advance,
>
>I wonder how that works nowadays with pre-paid credit cards [which are
>more accurately pre-paid debit cards], does TfL just take a commercial
>risk, or might they be rejected?

I suppose it would take a risk the first time, but black-list them if the transaction subsequently fails.

>
>>no need to use a ticket machine. Not only is it quicker and easier, but
>>it's cheaper than buying paper tickets.
>
>Again, very much a London-centric view. In the provinces there's no
>discounts for contactless or m-tickets.

Of course it's a London-centric reply to a question about how it works in London. Not everything revolves around Ely!

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ni1uah1f9mlp8fkk4rc02jmd4e8tppaovj@4ax.com>, at 12:24:21 on
> Sun, 19 Jun 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 11:58:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/06/2022 10:57, Recliner wrote:
>>>> The policy has worked surprisingly well in London, but of course most
>>>> travellers have no need to buy tickets, as they're using
>>>> Oyster/contactless/phone to pay for their travel.
>>>
>>> Is that standard contactless or an "App"?
>>
>> Just standard contactless cards and smartphone payment systems (Apple
>> Pay, Google Pay). No need to download anything from TfL, no need to
>> register, no need to do anything in advance,
>
> I wonder how that works nowadays with pre-paid credit cards [which are
> more accurately pre-paid debit cards], does TfL just take a commercial
> risk, or might they be rejected?
>
It will be rejected for further use on another day. TfL take the hit. But
not really different to a debit card where the bank account has no funds.