*We're reaching a very dangerous tipping point, as the debate over
Israel-Gaza is reduced to black-and-white*
/7.30, By Laura Tingle, ABC News, Australia/

<https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-02/dangerous-tipping-point-debate-israel-gaza/103178716?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web>

<https://tinyurl.com/ycxwubf4>

"Three young actors took their curtain call at the Sydney Theatre
Company last Saturday night wearing keffiyehs — the scarves associated
with Palestinians — around their shoulders.

What happened in the aftermath is a reflection of how the latest
conflict in the Middle East has erupted into bitter and dangerous
reductionism in political debates in Australia.

This trend, which has now visibly spread to the arts, has been
supercharged in recent weeks by politicians who should know better and
some media outlets who are fanning outrage and seem to be emphasising
only a rise in anti-Semitism in Australia without equally acknowledging
a rise in Islamophobia.

*Nuance is dead.*

The conflation of attempts at balanced commentary with the most divisive
hardliners on both sides of the conflict sees arguments reduced to black
and white.

Support for civilians caught up in the conflict — and a wish for the
conflict to end — is taken as endorsement of Hamas, and hostility
towards all Jewish people, including members of the Australian Jewish
community.

Equally, members of the local Jewish community who do not agree with the
actions of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu feel like they are being
tarred with the same brush of the government in Tel Aviv.

Everyone can have their own opinion about whether it was a good idea for
the three actors to don the keffiyehs in the current tense environment.
But the actors weren't donning the colours of Hamas. ... "

~~~~ ~~~~

Islamophobia...Antisemitism...White
supremacy...Hate...Intolerance...Religious fundamentalism...Demands for
violent and extremist solutions...Disregard for human suffering and that
all over the planet. All these despicable trends do NOT bode well for
our societies and the future of the human race (the only real race on
this planet).

--
Ördög
"A reminder for your mortification"

Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was the greatest
diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.

This dump, where most Jews choose not to live, has been radiating
political poison ever since. Especially in the Levant.

And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.

And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill 'em
all!

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 08:15:40 +1100
*Ördög* the real newsgroup Devil <devil@a.shadow.that.scares.edu> wrote:

> *We're reaching a very dangerous tipping point, as the debate over
> Israel-Gaza is reduced to black-and-white*
> /7.30, By Laura Tingle, ABC News, Australia/
>
> <https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-02/dangerous-tipping-point-debate-israel-gaza/103178716?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web>
>
> <https://tinyurl.com/ycxwubf4>
>
>
> "Three young actors took their curtain call at the Sydney Theatre
> Company last Saturday night wearing keffiyehs — the scarves associated
> with Palestinians — around their shoulders.
>
> What happened in the aftermath is a reflection of how the latest
> conflict in the Middle East has erupted into bitter and dangerous
> reductionism in political debates in Australia.
>
> This trend, which has now visibly spread to the arts, has been
> supercharged in recent weeks by politicians who should know better and
> some media outlets who are fanning outrage and seem to be emphasising
> only a rise in anti-Semitism in Australia without equally acknowledging
> a rise in Islamophobia.
>
> *Nuance is dead.*
>
> The conflation of attempts at balanced commentary with the most divisive
> hardliners on both sides of the conflict sees arguments reduced to black
> and white.
>
> Support for civilians caught up in the conflict — and a wish for the
> conflict to end — is taken as endorsement of Hamas, and hostility
> towards all Jewish people, including members of the Australian Jewish
> community.
>
> Equally, members of the local Jewish community who do not agree with the
> actions of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu feel like they are being
> tarred with the same brush of the government in Tel Aviv.
>
> Everyone can have their own opinion about whether it was a good idea for
> the three actors to don the keffiyehs in the current tense environment.
> But the actors weren't donning the colours of Hamas. ... "
>
> ~~~~ ~~~~
>
> Islamophobia...Antisemitism...White
> supremacy...Hate...Intolerance...Religious fundamentalism...Demands for
> violent and extremist solutions...Disregard for human suffering and that
> all over the planet. All these despicable trends do NOT bode well for
> our societies and the future of the human race (the only real race on
> this planet).
>

The question of why this is happening is interesting. How it is that
in the West, politicians have solidly taken a fundamental pro-Israel
side. We can understand geo-political motiviations for taking the
side of Ukraine, but where is the benefit for us, politically, or in
any way, in taking an anti-Palestinian position? I suspect this have
may have more to do with influence over politicians, and threats of
accusations of anti-semitism, than it does pragmatic politics.

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote

> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was thegreatest
> diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.

Hard to substantiate that claim given the diplomatic
blunders involved in the start of WW1, the Versailles
treaty, the diplomatic blunder of not stopping Adolf
once it became clear he was going to rampage thru
half of europe, Vietnam, Iraq etc.

> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live,

That's a lie, its only about half of them who don't.

> has been radiating political poisonever since. Especially in the
> Levant.

Hardly surprising given all the non jews there want to drive them into the
sea.

> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.

That last is bullshit.

> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill 'em
> all!

Yes it was certainly stupid to hand that area to the jews but thats done
now.

Borax Man

> Ördög
>
>> *We're reaching a very dangerous tipping point, as the debate over
>> Israel-Gaza is reduced to black-and-white*
>> /7.30, By Laura Tingle, ABC News, Australia/
>>
>> <https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-02/dangerous-tipping-point-debate-israel-gaza/103178716?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web>
>>
>> <https://tinyurl.com/ycxwubf4>
>> "Three young actors took their curtain call at the Sydney Theatre
>> Company last Saturday night wearing keffiyehs — the scarves associated
>> with Palestinians — around their shoulders.
>>
>> What happened in the aftermath is a reflection of how the latest
>> conflict in the Middle East has erupted into bitter and dangerous
>> reductionism in political debates in Australia.
>>
>> This trend, which has now visibly spread to the arts, has been
>> supercharged in recent weeks by politicians who should know better and
>> some media outlets who are fanning outrage and seem to be emphasising
>> only a rise in anti-Semitism in Australia without equally acknowledging
>> a rise in Islamophobia.
>>
>> *Nuance is dead.*
>>
>> The conflation of attempts at balanced commentary with the most divisive
>> hardliners on both sides of the conflict sees arguments reduced to black
>> and white.
>>
>> Support for civilians caught up in the conflict — and a wish for the
>> conflict to end — is taken as endorsement of Hamas, and hostility
>> towards all Jewish people, including members of the Australian Jewish
>> community.
>>
>> Equally, members of the local Jewish community who do not agree with the
>> actions of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu feel like they are being
>> tarred with the same brush of the government in Tel Aviv.
>>
>> Everyone can have their own opinion about whether it was a good idea for
>> the three actors to don the keffiyehs in the current tense environment.
>> But the actors weren't donning the colours of Hamas. ... "
>>
>> ~~~~ ~~~~
>>
>> Islamophobia...Antisemitism...White
>> supremacy...Hate...Intolerance...Religious fundamentalism...Demands for
>> violent and extremist solutions...Disregard for human suffering and that
>> all over the planet. All these despicable trends do NOT bode well for
>> our societies and the future of the human race (the only real race on
>> this planet).
>>
>
>
> The question of why this is happening is interesting. How it is that
> in the West, politicians have solidly taken a fundamental pro-Israel
> side. We can understand geo-political motiviations for taking the
> side of Ukraine, but where is the benefit for us, politically, or in
> any way, in taking an anti-Palestinian position? I suspect this have
> may have more to do with influence over politicians, and threats of
> accusations of anti-semitism, than it does pragmatic politics.
>

You must look at this issue in correct historical context, namely the
Cold War. Initially Palestinians as well as some other Arab countries
were more likely left leaning instead of the currently so dominant
hard-right religious fundamentalism.
That had horribly upset US superpower geopolitical interests in that
region knowing well that in their desperation Palestinians might become
fully allied with the USSR.
That explains why the die hard and over the top US (and its brown nosing
allies like the UK and Australia) support for the ultra
nationalist/extreme Zionist/hard right Israeli political
establishment/government came into existence. After the fall of the USSR
US involvement has not diminished but instead increased many folds due
to the need to secure oil supplies and deal with upsurgent Islamism in
the region.
Basically Israel is doing US's over/covert dirty work in the that part
of the planet.

--
Ördög
"A reminder for your mortification"

On 2023-12-02, *Ördög* the real newsgroup Devil <devil@a.shadow.that.scares.edu> wrote:
> Borax Man
>
>
>> Ördög
>>
>>> *We're reaching a very dangerous tipping point, as the debate over
>>> Israel-Gaza is reduced to black-and-white*
>>> /7.30, By Laura Tingle, ABC News, Australia/
>>>
>>> <https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-02/dangerous-tipping-point-debate-israel-gaza/103178716?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web>
>>>
>>> <https://tinyurl.com/ycxwubf4>
>>> "Three young actors took their curtain call at the Sydney Theatre
>>> Company last Saturday night wearing keffiyehs — the scarves associated
>>> with Palestinians — around their shoulders.
>>>
>>> What happened in the aftermath is a reflection of how the latest
>>> conflict in the Middle East has erupted into bitter and dangerous
>>> reductionism in political debates in Australia.
>>>
>>> This trend, which has now visibly spread to the arts, has been
>>> supercharged in recent weeks by politicians who should know better and
>>> some media outlets who are fanning outrage and seem to be emphasising
>>> only a rise in anti-Semitism in Australia without equally acknowledging
>>> a rise in Islamophobia.
>>>
>>> *Nuance is dead.*
>>>
>>> The conflation of attempts at balanced commentary with the most divisive
>>> hardliners on both sides of the conflict sees arguments reduced to black
>>> and white.
>>>
>>> Support for civilians caught up in the conflict — and a wish for the
>>> conflict to end — is taken as endorsement of Hamas, and hostility
>>> towards all Jewish people, including members of the Australian Jewish
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Equally, members of the local Jewish community who do not agree with the
>>> actions of the government of Benjamin Netanyahu feel like they are being
>>> tarred with the same brush of the government in Tel Aviv.
>>>
>>> Everyone can have their own opinion about whether it was a good idea for
>>> the three actors to don the keffiyehs in the current tense environment.
>>> But the actors weren't donning the colours of Hamas. ... "
>>>
>>> ~~~~ ~~~~
>>>
>>> Islamophobia...Antisemitism...White
>>> supremacy...Hate...Intolerance...Religious fundamentalism...Demands for
>>> violent and extremist solutions...Disregard for human suffering and that
>>> all over the planet. All these despicable trends do NOT bode well for
>>> our societies and the future of the human race (the only real race on
>>> this planet).
>>>
>>
>>
>> The question of why this is happening is interesting. How it is that
>> in the West, politicians have solidly taken a fundamental pro-Israel
>> side. We can understand geo-political motiviations for taking the
>> side of Ukraine, but where is the benefit for us, politically, or in
>> any way, in taking an anti-Palestinian position? I suspect this have
>> may have more to do with influence over politicians, and threats of
>> accusations of anti-semitism, than it does pragmatic politics.
>>
>
> You must look at this issue in correct historical context, namely the
> Cold War. Initially Palestinians as well as some other Arab countries
> were more likely left leaning instead of the currently so dominant
> hard-right religious fundamentalism.
> That had horribly upset US superpower geopolitical interests in that
> region knowing well that in their desperation Palestinians might become
> fully allied with the USSR.
> That explains why the die hard and over the top US (and its brown nosing
> allies like the UK and Australia) support for the ultra
> nationalist/extreme Zionist/hard right Israeli political
> establishment/government came into existence. After the fall of the USSR
> US involvement has not diminished but instead increased many folds due
> to the need to secure oil supplies and deal with upsurgent Islamism in
> the region.
> Basically Israel is doing US's over/covert dirty work in the that part
> of the planet.
>

An interesting analysis, but I'm not this explains the over the top
support for Israel. Either the US is shockingly ignorant, continuing
to inflame tensions to fight a left wing movement which is long dead,
or it has a hard on for Israel for other reasons, regardless of the
cost. The US has propped up other regimes, but its been willing to
shift allegiences where required. But Israel is "Our Greatest Ally",
the US's support is unshakeable. This is a weird exception, which
leads me to think there is some kind of capture here. No US
politician would dare go against Israel, which suggests the US is
*not* in control of this relationship.

On Sat, 02 Dec 2023 11:02:16 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
>
>> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was thegreatest
>> diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.
>
>Hard to substantiate that claim given the diplomatic
>blunders involved in the start of WW1, the Versailles
>treaty, the diplomatic blunder of not stopping Adolf
>once it became clear he was going to rampage thru
>half of europe, Vietnam, Iraq etc.

Are you being deliberately contentious?
Nobody was propping up Hitler.

>
>> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live,
>
>That's a lie, its only about half of them who don't.

Will you settle for a "significant proportion"?
>
>> has been radiating political poisonever since. Especially in the
>> Levant.
>
>Hardly surprising given all the non jews there want to drive them into the
>sea.

Hardly surprising since the Zionists invaded their territory!

>
>> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
>> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.
>
>That last is bullshit.

It is not bullshit. It is granite truth!
>
>> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
>> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
>> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill 'em
>> all!
>
>Yes it was certainly stupid to hand that area to the jews but thats done
>now.

The USA has the financial ability to squeeze the Zionists into some
sort of settlement. After the current battle is won, the war will go
on.

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote

>>> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was thegreatest
>>> diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.

>> Hard to substantiate that claim given the diplomatic
>> blunders involved in the start of WW1, the Versailles
>> treaty, the diplomatic blunder of not stopping Adolf
>> once it became clear he was going to rampage thru
>> half of europe, Vietnam, Iraq etc.

> Are you being deliberately contentious?

I rub your nose in the most stupid of your claims.

> Nobody was propping up Hitler.

Chaimberlain and the frogs did nothing when Adolf
started grabbing various territory that wasnt his.

>>> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live,

>> That's a lie, its only about half of them who don't.

> Will you settle for a "significant proportion"?

Nope, I never settle, its a bullet in the back of the neck for you, boy.

>>> has been radiating political poisonever since. Especially in the
>>> Levant.

>> Hardly surprising given all the non jewsthere want to drive them into
>> the sea.

> Hardly surprising since the Zionists invaded their territory!

>>> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
>>> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.

>> That last is bullshit.

> It is not bullshit. It is granite truth!

Bullshit with the last bit.

>>> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
>>> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
>>> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill
>>> 'em all!

>> Yes it was certainly stupid to hand that area to the jews but thats done
>> now.

> The USA has the financial ability to squeezethe Zionists into some sort
> of settlement.

But given that there are almost as many jews in the USA
as there are in Israel, and that the jews control so much
of the US financial system, that aint gunna happen, stupid.

> After the current battle is won, the war will go on.

But is remains to be seen what capacity Hamas has to do much.

Arrafat became completely irrelevant.

Peter Jason wrote:
> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was the greatest
> diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.
>
> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live, has been radiating
> political poison ever since. Especially in the Levant.
>
> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.
>
> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill 'em
> all!
>

The Jewish lobby is rather powerful in the USA, they are going to
automatically support Israel.
A few weeks ago I was watching a TV chat show in Iceland, which has only
10 to 20 Jews. There was a punk band on the show with a FREE PALESTINE
banner. Imagine that in the USA.

On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 10:17:59 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
>
>>>> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was thegreatest
>>>> diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.
>
>>> Hard to substantiate that claim given the diplomatic
>>> blunders involved in the start of WW1, the Versailles
>>> treaty, the diplomatic blunder of not stopping Adolf
>>> once it became clear he was going to rampage thru
>>> half of europe, Vietnam, Iraq etc.
>
>> Are you being deliberately contentious?
>
>I rub your nose in the most stupid of your claims.
>
>> Nobody was propping up Hitler.
>
>Chaimberlain and the frogs did nothing when Adolf
>started grabbing various territory that wasnt his.
>
Huh! Another pitiful attempt to WEASEL out of the argument. "Propping
up" is not the same as "did nothing"!
How typical of Rod Slow to screw up.

>>>> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live,
>
>>> That's a lie, its only about half of them who don't.
>
>> Will you settle for a "significant proportion"?
>
>Nope, I never settle, its a bullet in the back of the neck for you, boy.
>
>>>> has been radiating political poisonever since. Especially in the
>>>> Levant.
>
>>> Hardly surprising given all the non jewsthere want to drive them into
>>> the sea.
>
>> Hardly surprising since the Zionists invaded their territory!
>
>>>> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen lives
>>>> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.
>
>>> That last is bullshit.
>
>> It is not bullshit. It is granite truth!
>
>Bullshit with the last bit.
>
>>>> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
>>>> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
>>>> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill
>>>> 'em all!
>
>>> Yes it was certainly stupid to hand that area to the jews but thats done
>>> now.
>
>> The USA has the financial ability to squeezethe Zionists into some sort
>> of settlement.
>
>But given that there are almost as many jews in the USA
>as there are in Israel, and that the jews control so much
>of the US financial system, that aint gunna happen, stupid.

Now Rod's run off to hide in the tall grass.
>
>> After the current battle is won, the war will go on.
>
>But is remains to be seen what capacity Hamas has to do much.
>
>Arrafat became completely irrelevant.

Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote

>>>>> Yet more evidence that the creation of Israel was the
>>>>> greatest diplomatic blunder of the mid 20th century.

>>>> Hard to substantiate that claim given the diplomatic
>>>> blunders involved in the start of WW1, the Versailles
>>>> treaty, the diplomatic blunder of not stopping Adolf
>>>> once it became clear he was going to rampage thru
>>>> half of europe, Vietnam, Iraq etc.

>>> Are you being deliberately contentious?

>> I rub your nose in the most stupid of your claims.

>>> Nobody was propping up Hitler.

>> Chaimberlain and the frogs did nothing when Adolf
>> started grabbing various territory that wasnt his.

> Huh! Another pitiful attempt to WEASEL out of the argument.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

> "Propping up" is not the same as "did nothing"!

That clearly was a DIPLOMATIC BLUNDER, fuckwit.

>>>>> This dump, where most Jews choose not to live,

>>>> That's a lie, its only about half of them who don't.

>>> Will you settle for a "significant proportion"?

>> Nope, I never settle, its a bullet in the back of the neck for you, boy.

>>>>> has been radiating political poisonever since. Especially in the
>>>>> Levant.

>>>> Hardly surprising given all the non jewsthere want to drive them into
>>>> the sea.

>>> Hardly surprising since the Zionists invaded their territory!

>>>>> And this, history's greatest Jewish ghetto, has consumed umpteen
>>>>> lives
>>>>> and cost the USA vast amounts of money it cannot afford much longer.

>>>> That last is bullshit.

>>> It is not bullshit. It is granite truth!

>> Bullshit with the last bit.

>>>>> And like the warlord Moses in 1350BC, he has that problem of how to
>>>>> deal with the then incumbent population. Of course Moses had his
>>>>> Final Solution! (It's in the bible.) No intermarriage, just kill
>>>>> 'em all!

>>>> Yes it was certainly stupid to hand that area to the jews but thats
>>>> done now.

>>> The USA has the financial ability to squeeze
>>> the Zionists into some sort of settlement.

>> But given that there are almost as many jews in the USA
>> as there are in Israel, and that the jews control so much
>> of the US financial system, that aint gunna happen, stupid.

<reams of your shit flushed where it belongs>

>>> After the current battle is won, the war will go on.

>> But is remains to be seen what capacity Hamas has to do much.

>> Arrafat became completely irrelevant.