In message <t8q1cv$147r$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:49:03 on Mon, 20 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 14:48:32 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t8pikf$13t$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:37:03 on Mon, 20 Jun
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>your look out. I'd sooner have it done by people who have a vague clue of the
>>>education system.
>>
>>Oh dear, where do we even start! Perhaps with parents being in a
>>minority as Governors, and even then some having day-jobs in other parts
>
>How many is some?

It will vary from school to school.

>>Did you ever answer my earlier question about whether local councillors
>>should exist, because they tick many of your boxes too.
>
>Worrying about when bins get collected isn't a profession.

It is for the local government officers running the refuse collection
service.

>Teaching is.
>
>>I suppose you think PTAs are a waste of time too, and parents should
>>have no say whatsoever in the running of the system for which they are
>>the "customer".
>
>When did you last have a say in how your local hospital was run?

My mother was on a committee which gave formal feedback on behalf of
patients to the management. But that's on a somewhat different plane.
Hospital Trusts have boards of directors, who are separate from the
administrative staff.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8rsgp$1ms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:38:01 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 18:30:35 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:37:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>teachers being vetted by social climbing busybodies with too much time on
>>>their hands and the square root of fuck all experience of education then
>>thats
>>>your look out.
>>
>>And yet more things that you're wrong about! You're really on a roll today,
>>aren't you.
>
>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have they
>with practical classroom experience?

Not relevant because school governors don't have a remit over the
classroom performance of staff. They are a lot more like accountants,
and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising the
use of the limited funds they have.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8s5fc$45f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:10:52 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have they
>>
>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>
>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>
>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier was about?
>
>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>
>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.

Management is a transferable skill from one industry to another. And yes
any idiot can give the wrong orders or make daft suggestions.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:45:21 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 07:38:01 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 18:30:35 +0100
>>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:37:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>teachers being vetted by social climbing busybodies with too much time on
>>>>>their hands and the square root of fuck all experience of education then
>>>>thats
>>>>>your look out.
>>>>
>>>>And yet more things that you're wrong about! You're really on a roll today,
>>>>aren't you.
>>>
>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have they
>>
>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>
>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>
>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier was about?

The role of governers is to provide oversight. They are recruited for that
particular skillset. Just because it's oversight of a school doesn't mean they
have to have teaching experience to do it. You wouldn't expect a hospital
administrator to have a medical degree, or a school accountant to be a former
teacher, or (dragging things back on topic for the group) a railway signaller to
be a former driver.

>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>
>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.

You really are determined to rack up the wrong, aren't you :-)

Mark

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:46:31 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t8q1cv$147r$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:49:03 on Mon, 20 Jun
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Worrying about when bins get collected isn't a profession.
>
>It is for the local government officers running the refuse collection
>service.

Not really.

>>Teaching is.
>>
>>>I suppose you think PTAs are a waste of time too, and parents should
>>>have no say whatsoever in the running of the system for which they are
>>>the "customer".
>>
>>When did you last have a say in how your local hospital was run?
>
>My mother was on a committee which gave formal feedback on behalf of
>patients to the management. But that's on a somewhat different plane.
>Hospital Trusts have boards of directors, who are separate from the
>administrative staff.

They're not a bunch of hobbyist amateurs unlike school governors.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:48:36 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t8rsgp$1ms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:38:01 on Tue, 21 Jun
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 18:30:35 +0100
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:37:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>teachers being vetted by social climbing busybodies with too much time on
>>>>their hands and the square root of fuck all experience of education then
>>>thats
>>>>your look out.
>>>
>>>And yet more things that you're wrong about! You're really on a roll today,
>>>aren't you.
>>
>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have they
>
>>with practical classroom experience?
>
>Not relevant because school governors don't have a remit over the
>classroom performance of staff. They are a lot more like accountants,
>and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising the
>use of the limited funds they have.

They're not accountants. They influence the direction of teaching in the
school, "vision" or "strategy" in management speak and hold the head teacher
to account. I don't want amateurs holding someone who is probably a multi
decades teaching professional to account. That is the job of paid employees
of an education authority.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:50:20 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t8s5fc$45f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:10:52 on Tue, 21 Jun
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have
>they
>>>
>>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>>
>>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>>
>>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier was about?
>
>>
>>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>>
>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>
>Management is a transferable skill from one industry to another. And yes

Sorry, management is not a skill, at least not on a par with the professions.
If you prefer it has the same skill level as bin collection - anyone can do it,
and unfortunately they do.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:09:11 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier was about?
>
>
>The role of governers is to provide oversight. They are recruited for that
>particular skillset. Just because it's oversight of a school doesn't mean they

Oversight is a skill set is it? On what planet?

>have to have teaching experience to do it. You wouldn't expect a hospital
>administrator to have a medical degree, or a school accountant to be a former

Given how badly some hospitals have been run since authority was taken away
from medical consultants in that realm thats hardly a vote of confidence for
employing the ignorant.

>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>
>You really are determined to rack up the wrong, aren't you :-)

I know it probably hurts your ego as know doubt its what you do for a job.
But holding meetings, divying up work and creating endless MS Office documents
few people will ever read isn't a notable skill. Being a contractor I've
worked for more managers than I can shake a stick at and without exception the
only good ones were the ones who'd worked their way in the relevant industry.
The ones parachuted in from elsewhere were useless blaggers who soon got found
out.

On 21/06/2022 12:48, Roland Perry wrote:

> and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising the
> use of the limited funds they have.

Is that really a bigger problem than all the kids..?

--
Arthur Figgis

On 20/06/2022 09:25, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Clank wrote:
>
>> I'm profoundly grateful I received free school meals - not least
>> because it was pretty much the only regular food I had until I
>> left home. But I also remember the abject horror that was
>> queuing up outside the admin office - conveniently located at the
>> main entrance in view of everyone - every Monday morning to
>> collect the roll of paper meal tickets that was handed out for
>> the week. Short of actually wearing a special uniform*, it's hard
>> to imagine a better way of making sure everybody in school knew
>> who the "povs" or "gyppos" (in the endearing vernacular of the
>> time) were.
>
> Way back in my schooldays, each class would have a Dinner
> Register, completed daily by the Dinner Monitor, of which I was
> once one.

At our school the kids on free dinners got tokens at register (In bulk
once a week? Every day? I can't remember) to spend in the canteen
instead of cash. With careful planning they could load extra drinks,
puddings etc onto their trays up the maximum value (which was very
slightly more than a typical meal) and share them out with their mates.

I don't think there was any particular stigma, beyond the general sense
that all kids who used the canteen were undesirable trouble-causers
looking for violence, not like the kids who don't clutter up the school
when they don't have to be there.

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <t8sn0u$7ve$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:10:22 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:46:31 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t8q1cv$147r$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:49:03 on Mon, 20 Jun
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Worrying about when bins get collected isn't a profession.
>>
>>It is for the local government officers running the refuse collection
>>service.
>
>Not really.
>
>>>Teaching is.
>>>
>>>>I suppose you think PTAs are a waste of time too, and parents should
>>>>have no say whatsoever in the running of the system for which they are
>>>>the "customer".
>>>
>>>When did you last have a say in how your local hospital was run?
>>
>>My mother was on a committee which gave formal feedback on behalf of
>>patients to the management. But that's on a somewhat different plane.
>>Hospital Trusts have boards of directors, who are separate from the
>>administrative staff.
>
>They're not a bunch of hobbyist amateurs unlike school governors.

Neither are the school governors, in fact certain flavours of school
governor are picked precisely for the business/adminstrative skills they
bring to the position.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8sn61$a8v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:13:05 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:48:36 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t8rsgp$1ms$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:38:01 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 18:30:35 +0100
>>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:37:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>teachers being vetted by social climbing busybodies with too much time on
>>>>>their hands and the square root of fuck all experience of education then
>>>>thats
>>>>>your look out.
>>>>
>>>>And yet more things that you're wrong about! You're really on a roll today,
>>>>aren't you.
>>>
>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses
>>>have they
>>
>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>
>>Not relevant because school governors don't have a remit over the
>>classroom performance of staff. They are a lot more like accountants,
>>and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising the
>>use of the limited funds they have.
>
>They're not accountants. They influence the direction of teaching in the
>school, "vision" or "strategy" in management speak and hold the head teacher
>to account.

Most of the time they are making decisions in order to balance the
books. There's very little remit to influence the teaching, anyway,
because as you rightly suggest that's the role for the head and his
senior management team.

And you are quite right that "strategy" is an important keyword, and
some people have greater skills at that (often acquired from their
day-job career in different sectors).

Of course sometimes whatever that day job is, brings new skills into the
school. You wouldn't expect a Head Teacher to be an expert at Data
Protection, but as it happens, I am. And there were several times when
to avoid risking crossing a red line, it was my advice which steered
things in the right direction.

I know the Head was quite relieved to know that if there was any such
trouble on the horizon I would *always* pick up on it, and *always* turn
out to be right. So he could relax and get on with things more aligned
with schooling.

Although I was never asked to do it, I could have done the same for
their IT/Internet access, because one of my clients (ie people I was
paid to advise in my day job) was BECTA, the government agency set up to
offer mass-produced advice on such things to schools.

One of the other governors was an expert at retailing (a Professor,
even) and that came in handy when subjects like the school uniform shop
cropped up. Or did you expect the Head teacher to be the ultimate source
of wisdom on that too, is that a module at Teacher Training College?

>I don't want amateurs holding someone who is probably a multi decades
>teaching professional to account.

Very little of what governors do relates to the classroom teaching. I'm
not sure how many times I have to keep saying that.

>That is the job of paid employees of an education authority.

I'm very glad you brought that up. As soon as a school gets Foundation
status, let alone becomes an Academy, the education authority (and their
employees) are quietly shown the door. That's actually the whole point
of those two transitions! The school becomes an independent business,
with the Head as CEO and the Governors as the board of directors.

Meanwhile the Chair of the Governors when I joined held a quite senior
role in some other department of the County Council (and just happened
to leave nearby and thus have children in the school), and was hence
well qualified to assist the school in navigating the maze which is
local authority bureaucracy.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8sn96$cah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:14:46 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:50:20 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t8s5fc$45f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:10:52 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have
>>they
>>>>
>>>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>>>
>>>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>>>
>>>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>>>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier
>>>was about?
>>
>>>
>>>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>>>
>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>
>>Management is a transferable skill from one industry to another. And yes
>
>Sorry, management is not a skill,

I know you've met some bad managers, but then I've met some bad
teachers.

>at least not on a par with the professions. If you prefer it has the
>same skill level as bin collection - anyone can do it, and
>unfortunately they do.

We are so far into Dunning-Kruger territory here, it's painful.
--
Roland Perry

In message <VYqdnav-NJm7YSz_nZ2dnUU7-SGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
18:13:09 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 21/06/2022 12:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising
>>the use of the limited funds they have.
>
>Is that really a bigger problem than all the kids..?

Of course it is. Money for textbooks used to be a thing, and that's
because almost all the funds a school is allocated goes on paying the
staff. Dealing with the kids on a day to day basis is entirely the tack
of the teachers, and governors only get involved if there's an appeal
against an exclusion order.

Which also has financial consequences because if a child is excluded
from school for more than a certain amount of time, the school has to
pay for home tutoring, and the have very little budget for that. The
middle course is to use the scarce funds to set up an in-school "sin
bin" classroom and get specially qualified teachers to give what
amounts to onsite individual tutoring.

But every penny you spend on that means you have no money for toilet
paper (yes, really!) or to recruit a teacher of Spanish which the
parents are clamouring for (in addition to German and French).

Governors, (as representatives of the parents, if nothing else) are
therefore politicians trying to work out strategically what the
least-worst way is to resolve this and dozens of other such issues.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall wrote:

>Being Catholic in 60s Britain was similarly hazardous! At least when I
>went to secondary school, there were a number of Polish catholics in the
>school. Their parents had been in the Polish squadrons of the RAF based
>nearby.

Our Head Teacher's two sons attended the school. They were
amongst those who were permitted to avoid the religious part of
our daily assembly, lead by their father, because they were RC.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:07:06 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t8sn96$cah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:14:46 on Tue, 21 Jun
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:50:20 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t8s5fc$45f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:10:52 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have
>>>they
>>>>>
>>>>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>>>>
>>>>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>>>>
>>>>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>>>>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier
>>>>was about?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>>>>
>>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>>
>>>Management is a transferable skill from one industry to another. And yes
>>
>>Sorry, management is not a skill,
>
>I know you've met some bad managers, but then I've met some bad
>teachers.
>
>>at least not on a par with the professions. If you prefer it has the
>>same skill level as bin collection - anyone can do it, and
>>unfortunately they do.
>
>We are so far into Dunning-Kruger territory here, it's painful.

I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
"consultant". How many have you worked for? I have a damn good idea of what
makes a good manager and what doesn't. The only idea you have of it is when
you look in the mirror.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:09:11 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>
>>You really are determined to rack up the wrong, aren't you :-)
>
>I know it probably hurts your ego as know doubt its what you do for a job.

Another factually wrong statement. Ker-ching!

Mark

In message <t8ukb9$1qmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:07:06 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t8sn96$cah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:14:46 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 12:50:20 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t8s5fc$45f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:10:52 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh right, so school governers have all done teacher training courses have
>>>>they
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>with practical classroom experience?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, and why should they? They aren't teachers, they're governers. They are
>>>>>
>>>>>Because then they might have a clue about what they're dealing with. Would
>>>>>you want a army general who didn't have a clue what being a soldier
>>>>>was about?
>>>>
>>>>>>recruited for that particular skillset.
>>>>>
>>>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>Management is a transferable skill from one industry to another. And yes
>>>
>>>Sorry, management is not a skill,
>>
>>I know you've met some bad managers, but then I've met some bad
>>teachers.
>>
>>>at least not on a par with the professions. If you prefer it has the
>>>same skill level as bin collection - anyone can do it, and
>>>unfortunately they do.
>>
>>We are so far into Dunning-Kruger territory here, it's painful.
>
>I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
>"consultant". How many have you worked for?

At least as many as that. But such metrics are disjoint from whether a
professional manager (for example a Head Teacher) has according to you
the same skills as a bin man.

>I have a damn good idea of what makes a good manager and what doesn't.

I'm sure you do, but you appear to have had a spectacular run of bad
luck.

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:05:25 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:09:11 +0100
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>>
>>>You really are determined to rack up the wrong, aren't you :-)
>>
>>I know it probably hurts your ego as know doubt its what you do for a job.
>
>Another factually wrong statement. Ker-ching!

I really don't give damn, you're full of shit you just don't know it.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:14:48 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t8ukb9$1qmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
>>"consultant". How many have you worked for?
>
>At least as many as that. But such metrics are disjoint from whether a
>professional manager (for example a Head Teacher) has according to you
>the same skills as a bin man.

I wonder if a head teacher qualifies as a teacher then spends a decade
or 2 in the classroom first.... hmm, tricky...

>>I have a damn good idea of what makes a good manager and what doesn't.
>
>I'm sure you do, but you appear to have had a spectacular run of bad
>luck.

I have? News to me.

On 22/06/2022 17:14, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:14:48 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8ukb9$1qmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
>>> "consultant". How many have you worked for?
>>
>> At least as many as that. But such metrics are disjoint from whether a
>> professional manager (for example a Head Teacher) has according to you
>> the same skills as a bin man.
>
> I wonder if a head teacher qualifies as a teacher then spends a decade
> or 2 in the classroom first.... hmm, tricky...

In the past I've heard anecdotally of teachers complaining that being
"good at teaching" doesn't provide the skill set needed for managing
other teachers (or things like procurement), and have heard of heads
struggling with the transition.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 22/06/2022 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <VYqdnav-NJm7YSz_nZ2dnUU7-SGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 18:13:09 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 21/06/2022 12:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> and let's face it the biggest problem schools have is prioritising
>>> the  use of the limited funds they have.
>>
>> Is that really a bigger problem than all the kids..?
>
> Of course it is.

I'm pretty sure getting rid of the kids would solve a lot of the money
concerns, while getting rid of the money wouldn't solve the kid
problems. See also: the pandemic showing that railways really do run
better when there are no passengers to get in the way.

--
Arthur Figgis

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:12:51 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:05:25 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:09:11 +0100
>>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>What particular skill set is that then, "Governing"? Thats not a skill. Any
>>>>>fucking idiot can give orders or make suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>You really are determined to rack up the wrong, aren't you :-)
>>>
>>>I know it probably hurts your ego as know doubt its what you do for a job.
>>
>>Another factually wrong statement. Ker-ching!
>
>I really don't give damn, you're full of shit you just don't know it.

Ker-ching :-)

Mark

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 17:14, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:14:48 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t8ukb9$1qmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
>>>> "consultant". How many have you worked for?
>>>
>>> At least as many as that. But such metrics are disjoint from whether a
>>> professional manager (for example a Head Teacher) has according to you
>>> the same skills as a bin man.
>>
>> I wonder if a head teacher qualifies as a teacher then spends a decade
>> or 2 in the classroom first.... hmm, tricky...
>
> In the past I've heard anecdotally of teachers complaining that being
> "good at teaching" doesn't provide the skill set needed for managing
> other teachers (or things like procurement), and have heard of heads
> struggling with the transition.

Exactly the same used to happen in Universities, where a Professor,
distinguished by being a good researcher, was also required to be head of
department, requiring good administrative and political skills. There were
some disasters and things are much more flexible these days.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/06/2022 17:14, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:14:48 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t8ukb9$1qmq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> I've worked in over 20 companies in my career with another 3 as a placed
>>>>> "consultant". How many have you worked for?
>>>>
>>>> At least as many as that. But such metrics are disjoint from whether a
>>>> professional manager (for example a Head Teacher) has according to you
>>>> the same skills as a bin man.
>>>
>>> I wonder if a head teacher qualifies as a teacher then spends a decade
>>> or 2 in the classroom first.... hmm, tricky...
>>
>> In the past I've heard anecdotally of teachers complaining that being
>> "good at teaching" doesn't provide the skill set needed for managing
>> other teachers (or things like procurement), and have heard of heads
>> struggling with the transition.
>
> Exactly the same used to happen in Universities, where a Professor,
> distinguished by being a good researcher, was also required to be head of
> department, requiring good administrative and political skills. There were
> some disasters and things are much more flexible these days.
>

It's not just in education. In almost every field, people who are really
good at something don't necessarily turn out to be good at managing teams
of other people of more variable ability doing the same job. And they're
even less likely to be naturally excellent senior managers of other
managers.

They need training for the management role, and many discover that they
don't enjoying managing nearly as much as doing. The extra money and perks
are nice, but the job may be less fun (eg, lots of pilots hate 'flying a
desk', after they get promoted into senior management). Conversely, a few
people are natural leaders, and are better in that role.