The consensus of lawyers, judges, historians — and the founders — is that there
is no constitutional state power to secede. Because there is no such power, it
is not left to the states via the tenth amendment.

The notion that the United States is a "federation" of sovereign states is
simply wrong. The states, like Native American tribes, have an extremely and
tightly circumscribed sovereignty and autonomy. For example, sovereign states
have the power to enter into treaties and military alliances with other
sovereign states; can grant or withhold official recognition of the governments
of other sovereign states; can place tariffs on goods coming from other
sovereign states; etc. American states have no power to do any of those things.
And sovereign states can withdraw from treaties and other agreements pursuant to
the terms of the agreements. The Constitution is not such a treaty or agreement.

The legal and historical consensus, made official by Texas v. White, is that the
United States is a perpetual union, and there is no power to secede.

Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> wrote

> The consensus of lawyers, judges, historians — and the founders— is
> that there is no constitutional state power to secede.

Pity that that is what the declaration of independance did.

> Because there is no such power, it is notleft to the states via the
> tenth amendment.

Mindless legal wanking.

> The notion that the United States is a "federation"of sovereign states
> is simply wrong.

Even sillier.

> The states, like Native American tribes, have an extremelyand tightly
> circumscribed sovereignty and autonomy.

So do the feds with what they are allowed to do by the constitution.

> For example, sovereign states have the power to enter into treaties and
> military alliances with other sovereign states; can grant or withhold
> official recognition of the governments of other sovereign states; can
> place tariffs on goods coming from other sovereign states; etc. American
> states have no power to do any of those things. And sovereign states can
> withdraw from treaties and other agreements pursuant to the terms of the
> agreements.

Duh.

> The Constitution is not such a treaty or agreement.

So you are proclaiming that it was handed down by some god or other are
you ?

You'll end up blind if you don't watch out, boy.

> The legal and historical consensus,

No such animal. The law is not about consensus.

> made official by Texas v. White,

It does no such thing.

> is that the United States is a perpetual union,

Thats what the king claimed too. He discovered that it wasnt.

> and there is no power to secede.

Thats what the king claimed too. He discovered that there was.

On 1/10/2024 9:37 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
> Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> wrote
>
>> The consensus of lawyers, judges, historians — and the founders— is  that
>> there is no constitutional state power to secede.
>
> Pity that that is what the declaration of independance [sic] did.

*independence*

And no, it didn't.

>
>> Because there is  no such power, it is not left  to the states via the tenth
>> amendment.
>
> Mindless legal wanking.

Nope. Your pal scooter said that the tenth amendment *does* leave states with
the power to secede, and you agreed with him. But it's wrong — there *is* no
power to secede.

>
>> The notion that the United States is a "federation"of sovereign states  is
>> simply wrong.
>
> Even sillier.

No.

>
>> The states, like Native American tribes, have an  extremely and tightly
>> circumscribed sovereignty and autonomy.
>
> So do the feds with what they are allowed to do by the constitution.

Domestically. Domestically, there is shared sovereignty. Of course, the nature
of a republic is that sovereignty resides in the people.

>
>> For  example, sovereign states have the power to enter into treaties and
>> military alliances with other sovereign states; can grant or withhold official
>> recognition of the governments of other sovereign states; can place tariffs on
>> goods coming from other sovereign states; etc. American states have no power
>> to do any of those things. And sovereign states can withdraw from treaties and
>> other agreements pursuant to the terms of the agreements.
>
> Duh.
>
>> The Constitution is not such a treaty or agreement.
>
> So you are proclaiming that it was handed down by some god or other are you ?

No. I'm stating a fact: it cannot be unilaterally abrogated by a state. The
states could convene a constitutional convention at which they agree to dissolve
the Constitution, but no state can leave on its own.

>
> You'll end up blind if you don't watch out, boy.

I didn't say what you thought I said, wanker.

>
>> The legal and historical consensus,
>
> No such animal.

Yes, there is.

>> made official by Texas v. White,
>
> It does no such thing.

It does. That's how our system, which you do not understand, operates.

>
>> is  that the United States is a perpetual union,
>
> Thats what the king claimed too. He discovered that it wasnt.

It's a perpetual union until a constitutional convention dissolves it.

>
>> and there is no power to  secede.
>
> Thats what the king claimed too.

Nope.

You don't understand a bit of this.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:35:26 -0800, Matt Singer
<out.of.key@wyebur.con> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 9:37 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> wrote
>>
>>> The consensus of lawyers, judges, historians — and the founders— is  that
>>> there is no constitutional state power to secede.
>>
>> Pity that that is what the declaration of independance [sic] did.
>
>*independence*
>
>And no, it didn't.
>
>>
>>> Because there is  no such power, it is not left  to the states via the tenth
>>> amendment.
>>
>> Mindless legal wanking.
>
>Nope. Your pal scooter said that the tenth amendment *does* leave states with
>the power to secede, and you agreed with him. But it's wrong — there *is* no
>power to secede.
>
There qas before the civil war
Not after it.
<https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm>
>>
>>> The notion that the United States is a "federation"of sovereign states  is
>>> simply wrong.
>>
>> Even sillier.
>
>No.
>
>>
>>> The states, like Native American tribes, have an  extremely and tightly
>>> circumscribed sovereignty and autonomy.
>>
>> So do the feds with what they are allowed to do by the constitution.
>
>Domestically. Domestically, there is shared sovereignty. Of course, the nature
>of a republic is that sovereignty resides in the people.
>
>>
>>> For  example, sovereign states have the power to enter into treaties and
>>> military alliances with other sovereign states; can grant or withhold official
>>> recognition of the governments of other sovereign states; can place tariffs on
>>> goods coming from other sovereign states; etc. American states have no power
>>> to do any of those things. And sovereign states can withdraw from treaties and
>>> other agreements pursuant to the terms of the agreements.
>>
>> Duh.
>>
>>> The Constitution is not such a treaty or agreement.
>>
>> So you are proclaiming that it was handed down by some god or other are you ?
>
>No. I'm stating a fact: it cannot be unilaterally abrogated by a state. The
>states could convene a constitutional convention at which they agree to dissolve
>the Constitution, but no state can leave on its own.
>
>>
>> You'll end up blind if you don't watch out, boy.
>
>I didn't say what you thought I said, wanker.
>
>
>>
>>> The legal and historical consensus,
>>
>> No such animal.
>
>Yes, there is.
>
>>> made official by Texas v. White,
>>
>> It does no such thing.
>
>It does. That's how our system, which you do not understand, operates.
>
>>
>>> is  that the United States is a perpetual union,
>>
>> Thats what the king claimed too. He discovered that it wasnt.
>
>It's a perpetual union until a constitutional convention dissolves it.
>
>>
>>> and there is no power to  secede.
>>
>> Thats what the king claimed too.
>
>Nope.
>
>You don't understand a bit of this.
--
Petzl
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot
survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable,
for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves
amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling
through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself
For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar
to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he
appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He
rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night
to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so
that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

- Marcus Tullius Cicero