A little story I was unaware of.

Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243

I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
though many a town
had a Station Hotel which had stables .

GH

On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
> A little story I was unaware of.
>
> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243

Michael Portillo covered this in Great British Rail Journeys.
I can't seem to find the episode.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2006 - The Completist's Library - Sarandon

On 06/07/2021 08:09, Basil Jet wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>
>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>
>>
>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>
> Michael Portillo covered this in Great British Rail Journeys.
> I can't seem to find the episode.

Series 3 Episode 7 at 10m30s, according to Railforums, though slightly
off route for Reading to Alton.

<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/general-knowledge-quiz.69606/page-490>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railway_Journeys#Series_3_(2012)>

On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
> A little story I was unaware of.
>
> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>
> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
> though many a town
> had a Station Hotel which had stables .
>

Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever, by
rail or towed by horses?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/07/2021 10:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>
>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>
>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>>
>> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
>> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
>> though many a town
>> had a Station Hotel which had stables .
>
> Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever, by
> rail or towed by horses?

"taken across the channel and on by train to Micheldever station".
<http://datchethistory.org.uk/datchet-people/evelyn-ellis-and-the-first-motor-car-in-england/>

In message <sc18l8$in5$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:44:08 on Tue, 6 Jul 2021,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 06/07/2021 10:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>>
>>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>>
>>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>>>
>>> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
>>> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
>>> though many a town
>>> had a Station Hotel which had stables .

>> Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever,
>>by rail or towed by horses?
>
>"taken across the channel and on by train to Micheldever station".
><http://datchethistory.org.uk/datchet-people/evelyn-ellis-and-the-
>first-motor-car-in-england/>

What I found interesting was the existence of the 2ph/4mph speed limit
before there were any cars to which they might apply.

But the Red Flag law was originally for steam-powered traction engines
and passenger coaches, which leads to discovering:

"Beginning about 1868, Britain was the scene of a vogue for
light steam-powered personal carriages; if the popularity of
these vehicles had not been legally hindered, it would certainly
have resulted in widespread enthusiasm for motoring in the 1860s
rather than in the 1890s. Some of the steamers could carry as
few as two people and were capable of speeds of 20 miles (32 km)
per hour."

But history has apparently decreed they aren't "motor cars".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car#Early_history
--
Roland Perry

On 06/07/2021 10:44, Certes wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 10:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>>
>>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>>
>>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>>>
>>> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
>>> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
>>> though many a town
>>> had a Station Hotel which had stables .
>>
>> Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever, by
>> rail or towed by horses?
>
> "taken across the channel and on by train to Micheldever station".
> <http://datchethistory.org.uk/datchet-people/evelyn-ellis-and-the-first-motor-car-in-england/>
>

Thanks, lovely description of the journey. Reckless driving though
averaging nearly 10mph, maniac!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/07/2021 10:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>
>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>
>>
>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>>
>> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
>> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
>> though many a town
>> had a Station Hotel which had stables .
>>
>
>
> Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever, by
> rail or towed by horses?
>
>
That episode is being shown on Yesterday this week.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sc18l8$in5$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:44:08 on Tue, 6 Jul 2021,
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>> On 06/07/2021 10:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>>>> A little story  I was unaware of.
>>>>
>>>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>>>
>>>>   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
>>>>
>>>> I wonder when the first station car parking charges were introduced ?
>>>> Previously it would not have been practical to leave ones horse and trap
>>>> though many a town
>>>> had a Station Hotel which had stables .
>
>>> Begs the question as to how it got from Southampton to Micheldever,
>>> by rail or towed by horses?
>>
>> "taken across the channel and on by train to Micheldever station".
>> <http://datchethistory.org.uk/datchet-people/evelyn-ellis-and-the-
>> first-motor-car-in-england/>
>
> What I found interesting was the existence of the 2ph/4mph speed limit
> before there were any cars to which they might apply.
>
> But the Red Flag law was originally for steam-powered traction engines
> and passenger coaches, which leads to discovering:
>
> "Beginning about 1868, Britain was the scene of a vogue for
> light steam-powered personal carriages; if the popularity of
> these vehicles had not been legally hindered, it would certainly
> have resulted in widespread enthusiasm for motoring in the 1860s
> rather than in the 1890s. Some of the steamers could carry as
> few as two people and were capable of speeds of 20 miles (32 km)
> per hour."
>
> But history has apparently decreed they aren't "motor cars".
>
>

I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
not necessarily appropriate.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
> combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
> guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
> logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
> not necessarily appropriate.

Steam cars that are powered by liquid fuel have quite a lot of similarities
of form with ICE cars - a different kind of engine and a water tank, but
otherwise the chassis/bodywork/layout is roughly the same.

Steam cars that are powered by coal are a different thing, sharing more
heritage with locomotives and traction engines than ICE cars. When people
talk about them before 1890s, I assume it's these to which they refer.

Theo

On 06/07/2021 08:09, Basil Jet wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 07:36, Marland wrote:
>> A little story I was unaware of.
>>
>> Plaque in Micheldever marks first UK car journey
>>
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-57698243
> Michael Portillo covered this in Great British Rail Journeys.
> I can't seem to find the episode.

Just having a read.

Gloucestershire Chronicle - Saturday 31 August 1895
In the House of Commons on Monday night, Mr. Macdona asked the President
of the Local Government Board whether he was aware that a petroleum
motor, owned by the Hon. Evelyn Ellis (who is now staying in
Gloucester), which won the first prize in the recent horseless carriage
race between Paris and Bordeaux, had since then travelled in this
country from Micheldever to Datchet, a distance of 56 miles, in five and
a half hours, at a cost of one halfpenny worth of petroleum per hour,
carrying four persons all the time

On 06/07/2021 22:23, MB wrote:
>
>  Gloucestershire Chronicle - Saturday 31 August 1895
> In the House of Commons on Monday night, Mr. Macdona asked the President
> of the Local Government Board whether he was aware that a petroleum
> motor, owned by the Hon. Evelyn Ellis (who is now staying in
> Gloucester), which won the first prize in the recent horseless carriage
> race between Paris and Bordeaux, had since then travelled in this
> country from Micheldever to Datchet, a distance of 56 miles, in five and
> a half hours, at a cost of one halfpenny worth of petroleum per hour,
> carrying four persons all the time

Why would someone get the car shipped by train from Southampton to
Micheldever, and then drive it to Datchet? There must have been a goods
depot nearer to Datchet.. or why not drive it from Southampton Dock?

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2018 - Rats Don't Eat Synthesizers - The Dwarfs Of East Agouza

Basil Jet <basil@spamspamspam.com> wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 22:23, MB wrote:
>>
>>  Gloucestershire Chronicle - Saturday 31 August 1895
>> In the House of Commons on Monday night, Mr. Macdona asked the President
>> of the Local Government Board whether he was aware that a petroleum
>> motor, owned by the Hon. Evelyn Ellis (who is now staying in
>> Gloucester), which won the first prize in the recent horseless carriage
>> race between Paris and Bordeaux, had since then travelled in this
>> country from Micheldever to Datchet, a distance of 56 miles, in five and
>> a half hours, at a cost of one halfpenny worth of petroleum per hour,
>> carrying four persons all the time
>
> Why would someone get the car shipped by train from Southampton to
> Micheldever, and then drive it to Datchet? There must have been a goods
> depot nearer to Datchet.. or why not drive it from Southampton Dock?
>

Maybe he wanted to do a drive of a reasonable length but wanted to
minimise risk of being stopped for speeding? Southampton with lots of
horse drawn traffic and its own Police Force and staffed accordingly for a
town might have been seen as too risky to start such a venture in.
Micheldever would have been in the much quieter Hampshire County Police
area.

It is quite a small place today but still has a motoring connection due to
a businessman deciding
the former station goods yard on the up side was a good location to set up
his burgeoning tyre fitting business on.
Today it is one of the largest tyre suppliers in the country .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protyre

GH

On 06/07/2021 22:35, Basil Jet wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 22:23, MB wrote:
>>
>>   Gloucestershire Chronicle - Saturday 31 August 1895
>> In the House of Commons on Monday night, Mr. Macdona asked the
>> President of the Local Government Board whether he was aware that a
>> petroleum motor, owned by the Hon. Evelyn Ellis (who is now staying in
>> Gloucester), which won the first prize in the recent horseless
>> carriage race between Paris and Bordeaux, had since then travelled in
>> this country from Micheldever to Datchet, a distance of 56 miles, in
>> five and a half hours, at a cost of one halfpenny worth of petroleum
>> per hour, carrying four persons all the time
>
> Why would someone get the car shipped by train from Southampton to
> Micheldever, and then drive it to Datchet? There must have been a goods
> depot nearer to Datchet.. or why not drive it from Southampton Dock?
>

Didn't want to get stopped by police in Southampton. Micheldever, then
and now, is a quiet spot that doesn't see a policeman that often.

As for goods depots, every station was one in those days.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2021-07-06 16:40:58 +0000, Theo said:

> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
>> combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
>> guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
>> logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
>> not necessarily appropriate.
>
> Steam cars that are powered by liquid fuel have quite a lot of similarities
> of form with ICE cars - a different kind of engine and a water tank, but
> otherwise the chassis/bodywork/layout is roughly the same.
>
> Steam cars that are powered by coal are a different thing, sharing more
> heritage with locomotives and traction engines than ICE cars. When people
> talk about them before 1890s, I assume it's these to which they refer.

Some of the later era steam road vehicles had a lot in common with IC
engined vehciles of their era, regardless of fuel. The Sentinel S
series of steam lorries had quite a lit in common with IC engined
lorries of the time. High speed engines with single acting cylinders
and poppet valves, prop shaft and differential drive, pneumatic tyres
and the like, although they were generally coal fired.

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2021-07-06 16:40:58 +0000, Theo said:
>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
>>> combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
>>> guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
>>> logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
>>> not necessarily appropriate.
>>
>> Steam cars that are powered by liquid fuel have quite a lot of similarities
>> of form with ICE cars - a different kind of engine and a water tank, but
>> otherwise the chassis/bodywork/layout is roughly the same.
>>
>> Steam cars that are powered by coal are a different thing, sharing more
>> heritage with locomotives and traction engines than ICE cars. When people
>> talk about them before 1890s, I assume it's these to which they refer.
>
> Some of the later era steam road vehicles had a lot in common with IC
> engined vehciles of their era, regardless of fuel. The Sentinel S
> series of steam lorries had quite a lit in common with IC engined
> lorries of the time. High speed engines with single acting cylinders
> and poppet valves, prop shaft and differential drive, pneumatic tyres
> and the like, although they were generally coal fired.

I remember seeing what I think I later decided was a Sentinel passing by
(Hertford on a Sunday morning 20+ years ago). It may have been coasting at
the time, but it was remarkably quiet.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 2021-07-07 07:39:41 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-06 16:40:58 +0000, Theo said:
>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
>>>> combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
>>>> guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
>>>> logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
>>>> not necessarily appropriate.
>>>
>>> Steam cars that are powered by liquid fuel have quite a lot of similarities
>>> of form with ICE cars - a different kind of engine and a water tank, but
>>> otherwise the chassis/bodywork/layout is roughly the same.
>>>
>>> Steam cars that are powered by coal are a different thing, sharing more
>>> heritage with locomotives and traction engines than ICE cars. When people
>>> talk about them before 1890s, I assume it's these to which they refer.
>>
>> Some of the later era steam road vehicles had a lot in common with IC
>> engined vehciles of their era, regardless of fuel. The Sentinel S
>> series of steam lorries had quite a lit in common with IC engined
>> lorries of the time. High speed engines with single acting cylinders
>> and poppet valves, prop shaft and differential drive, pneumatic tyres
>> and the like, although they were generally coal fired.
>
> I remember seeing what I think I later decided was a Sentinel passing by
> (Hertford on a Sunday morning 20+ years ago). It may have been coasting at
> the time, but it was remarkably quiet.

The McMullen's brewery in Hertford had a sentinel DG4 steam wagon that
they used for deliveries to Hertford area pubs around that sort of
time. Not sure whether they still have it or if they do whether it is
still operational, but in the '90s it was a reasonably common sight in
the area.

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2021-07-07 07:39:41 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-06 16:40:58 +0000, Theo said:
>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> I think steam cars are generally regarded as separate from internal
>>>>> combustion engined cars, and have been for as long as I can remember. I
>>>>> guess if the context is 'precedents to modern motoring' then there's some
>>>>> logic to the separation, though I'd agree with you that in this case it's
>>>>> not necessarily appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> Steam cars that are powered by liquid fuel have quite a lot of similarities
>>>> of form with ICE cars - a different kind of engine and a water tank, but
>>>> otherwise the chassis/bodywork/layout is roughly the same.
>>>>
>>>> Steam cars that are powered by coal are a different thing, sharing more
>>>> heritage with locomotives and traction engines than ICE cars. When people
>>>> talk about them before 1890s, I assume it's these to which they refer.
>>>
>>> Some of the later era steam road vehicles had a lot in common with IC
>>> engined vehciles of their era, regardless of fuel. The Sentinel S
>>> series of steam lorries had quite a lit in common with IC engined
>>> lorries of the time. High speed engines with single acting cylinders
>>> and poppet valves, prop shaft and differential drive, pneumatic tyres
>>> and the like, although they were generally coal fired.
>>
>> I remember seeing what I think I later decided was a Sentinel passing by
>> (Hertford on a Sunday morning 20+ years ago). It may have been coasting at
>> the time, but it was remarkably quiet.
>
> The McMullen's brewery in Hertford had a sentinel DG4 steam wagon that
> they used for deliveries to Hertford area pubs around that sort of
> time. Not sure whether they still have it or if they do whether it is
> still operational, but in the '90s it was a reasonably common sight in
> the area.

Looking at pictures of the model I’d guess that was the one.

<https://12.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/loughboroughmo/images/corgi-80006-sentinal-dg4-steam-wagon-c-w-barrels-mcmullen-brewery-1-50-scale-%5B4%5D-141073-p.jpg?v=1>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:47:34 +0200
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2021-07-07 07:39:41 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>> I remember seeing what I think I later decided was a Sentinel passing by
>> (Hertford on a Sunday morning 20+ years ago). It may have been coasting at
>> the time, but it was remarkably quiet.
>
>The McMullen's brewery in Hertford had a sentinel DG4 steam wagon that
>they used for deliveries to Hertford area pubs around that sort of
>time. Not sure whether they still have it or if they do whether it is
>still operational, but in the '90s it was a reasonably common sight in
>the area.

Youngs brewery in south west london used shire horses and a cart to deliver
locally up until about 10 years ago. We did a tour of the brewery back in the
90s, was well worth the money.

<MrSpud_ja_2o4l@5vo0zxnwfqg39qv7y7p9x.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:47:34 +0200
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-07 07:39:41 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>> I remember seeing what I think I later decided was a Sentinel passing by
>>> (Hertford on a Sunday morning 20+ years ago). It may have been coasting at
>>> the time, but it was remarkably quiet.
>>
>> The McMullen's brewery in Hertford had a sentinel DG4 steam wagon that
>> they used for deliveries to Hertford area pubs around that sort of
>> time. Not sure whether they still have it or if they do whether it is
>> still operational, but in the '90s it was a reasonably common sight in
>> the area.
>
> Youngs brewery in south west london used shire horses and a cart to deliver
> locally up until about 10 years ago. We did a tour of the brewery back in the
> 90s, was well worth the money.
>
>
>

When Whitbread still had Horse drays operating from their Chiswell Street
Brewery the draymen were occasionally called upon to provide the staff the
Speakers Coach which was kept at he brewery at ceremonial occasions under a
long standing arrangement. Made a lot of sense as by the late 1970’s when
the brewery closed such Draymen were among the few people with experience
of controlling a large horse drawn vehicle through the streets of London.
The last occasion was the Wedding of Charles and Diana and the coach now
well over 300 years old now considered to be too valuable to be used again
and there are no draymen who can be called upon, after a restoration it now
resides at NT property in Devon which houses the National carraige
collection.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/arlington-court-and-the-national-trust-carriage-museum/features/monitoring-our-special-carriage

Arlington Court is fairly close to the revived section of the Lynton and
Barnstaple so combining the two makes a reasonable day out for anyone down
that way.

GH

On 07/07/2021 07:49, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/07/2021 22:35, Basil Jet wrote:
>> On 06/07/2021 22:23, MB wrote:
>>>
>>>   Gloucestershire Chronicle - Saturday 31 August 1895
>>> In the House of Commons on Monday night, Mr. Macdona asked the
>>> President of the Local Government Board whether he was aware that a
>>> petroleum motor, owned by the Hon. Evelyn Ellis (who is now staying
>>> in Gloucester), which won the first prize in the recent horseless
>>> carriage race between Paris and Bordeaux, had since then travelled in
>>> this country from Micheldever to Datchet, a distance of 56 miles, in
>>> five and a half hours, at a cost of one halfpenny worth of petroleum
>>> per hour, carrying four persons all the time
>>
>> Why would someone get the car shipped by train from Southampton to
>> Micheldever, and then drive it to Datchet? There must have been a
>> goods depot nearer to Datchet.. or why not drive it from Southampton
>> Dock?
>
> Didn't want to get stopped by police in Southampton. Micheldever, then
> and now, is a quiet spot that doesn't see a policeman that often.
>
> As for goods depots, every station was one in those days.

I'd have been tempted to drive legally through Southampton and speed up
once I hit the countryside. Cautious practice is always a good start
when driving for the first time, even if there are no police around.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> I'd have been tempted to drive legally through Southampton and speed up
> once I hit the countryside. Cautious practice is always a good start
> when driving for the first time, even if there are no police around.

Bearing in mind it took over 8 hours to drive from Micheldever to Datchet at
an average speed of under 10mph, the docks to Micheldever is about 20 miles,
and the maximum speed under the red flag act was 2 mph in town or 4 mph
outside, how long do you think he was going to spend doing this?

Theo

On 07/07/2021 18:23, Theo wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> I'd have been tempted to drive legally through Southampton and speed up
>> once I hit the countryside. Cautious practice is always a good start
>> when driving for the first time, even if there are no police around.
>
> Bearing in mind it took over 8 hours to drive from Micheldever to Datchet at
> an average speed of under 10mph, the docks to Micheldever is about 20 miles,
> and the maximum speed under the red flag act was 2 mph in town or 4 mph
> outside, how long do you think he was going to spend doing this?
>
> Theo

Probably three hours: one to drive the first two miles through the city
(then much smaller than today) and two to pass Micheldever on the road
which would later become the A33.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 07/07/2021 18:23, Theo wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> I'd have been tempted to drive legally through Southampton and speed up
>>> once I hit the countryside. Cautious practice is always a good start
>>> when driving for the first time, even if there are no police around.
>>
>> Bearing in mind it took over 8 hours to drive from Micheldever to Datchet at
>> an average speed of under 10mph, the docks to Micheldever is about 20 miles,
>> and the maximum speed under the red flag act was 2 mph in town or 4 mph
>> outside, how long do you think he was going to spend doing this?

> Probably three hours: one to drive the first two miles through the city
> (then much smaller than today)

Actually in that direction Southampton hasn’t grown that much with most
growth going East and West ‘the last move to incorporate North being
Bassett in the 1920’s part of which which for a long time was a desirable
garden suburb. Certainly there has been infilling especially with 1930’s
council estates taking over some manor house parklands to move people from
slum housing in the centre but just beyond them a combination of desirable
upper market houses in well spaced grounds ,golf courses and the desire to
keep some space between Southampton and Eastleigh has stopped growth to
the North *, Chilworth is still much on the boundary now as it was at the
end of the 19th Century and comes under Test Valley Council rather than
Southampton.

And Southampton was still a town then ,city status didn’t come till 1964.

* Though Eastleigh is now doing its best to expand South up towards the M27
junction 5 and people passing probably don’t realise where the boundary is.

Though Eastleigh considers itself in the shadow of Southampton the council
area is slightly larger,at the time of the motoring exploit the LSWR had
only recently started to move operations to what was then Bishopstoke and
start creating a new railway town so it a fairly young place compared to
many.

GH