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aus+uk / uk.tech.digital-tv / Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

SubjectAuthor
* Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?David
+* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Indy Jess John
|+* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
||`* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Bob Latham
|| `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
||  +- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Bob Latham
||  `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Robin
||   `- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Unsteadyken
|`* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?alan_m
| +* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
| |`* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?alan_m
| | `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?williamwright
| |  `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
| |   +- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?alan_m
| |   `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Unsteadyken
| |    `- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
| `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?Brian Gregory
|  +- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?alan_m
|  `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
|   `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?David Woolley
|    `* Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?NY
|     `- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?David Woolley
`- Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?David

1
Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

<jcli9hF5a0cU4@mid.individual.net>

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From: wib...@btinternet.com (David)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: 24 Apr 2022 18:13:05 GMT
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 by: David - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:13 UTC

Yet again I am wanting to watch the F1 Qualifying highlights from
yesterday whilst the Humax box is recording the highlights from today's
race.

The Humax HB1000S has a single tuner, so I can only record one thing, but
can I safely play back a recording whilst a new recording is being made?

If not, what would be a suitable Freesat box to be able to do this?

For context, I have a VM box downstairs which can do this, but I like to
watch F1 on the bedroom set so that I don't compete for the downstairs set
during prime time viewing.

Every time this comes up I make a mental note to sort this out, but then
forget.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

<t446eq$pm4$1@dont-email.me>

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From: bathwatc...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com (Indy Jess John)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 19:55:21 +0100
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 by: Indy Jess John - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:55 UTC

On 24/04/2022 19:13, David wrote:
> Yet again I am wanting to watch the F1 Qualifying highlights from
> yesterday whilst the Humax box is recording the highlights from today's
> race.
>
> The Humax HB1000S has a single tuner, so I can only record one thing, but
> can I safely play back a recording whilst a new recording is being made?
>
> If not, what would be a suitable Freesat box to be able to do this?
>
> For context, I have a VM box downstairs which can do this, but I like to
> watch F1 on the bedroom set so that I don't compete for the downstairs set
> during prime time viewing.
>
> Every time this comes up I make a mental note to sort this out, but then
> forget.
>

I had a look at some reviews and they focus on the fact that with a
single tuner you can't watch one channel while recording another, but
that isn't your problem. What you want to do is watch a recording
already made while recording another.

The disc is connected via a USB connection, and the speed of that is the
limit to throughput. My guess is that it is theoretically possible
because the playback isn't using the single tuner, but unless it is a
USB3 socket connecting to a USB3 disc, then concurrently recording and
playing back at HD resolutions is pushing your luck.

By all means try it, and if it does mess up yout new recording you will
know not to do it again. If you do have a messed up recording it might
be possible to re-record it later as a catch-up. If you don't get a
messed up recording you will then know you can do it whenever you like.

Jim

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

<t449m5$img$1@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 20:49:38 +0100
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 by: NY - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 19:49 UTC

"Indy Jess John" <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
news:t446eq$pm4$1@dont-email.me...
> I had a look at some reviews and they focus on the fact that with a single
> tuner you can't watch one channel while recording another, but that isn't
> your problem. What you want to do is watch a recording already made while
> recording another.
>
> The disc is connected via a USB connection, and the speed of that is the
> limit to throughput. My guess is that it is theoretically possible
> because the playback isn't using the single tuner, but unless it is a USB3
> socket connecting to a USB3 disc, then concurrently recording and playing
> back at HD resolutions is pushing your luck.
>
> By all means try it, and if it does mess up yout new recording you will
> know not to do it again. If you do have a messed up recording it might be
> possible to re-record it later as a catch-up. If you don't get a messed up
> recording you will then know you can do it whenever you like.

The following may help with the throughput of USB2.

My PVR is a Raspberry Pi 4 with various Freeview and Freesat tuners. All the
recordings are written to an external USB2 HDD (spinning, not solid state).

As a test, I have tried recording three different SD channels or 2 SD and 1
HD simultaneously. This is glitch-free.

I have even tried playing a recording (either an earlier one or one that is
currently recording) during this recording of three channels. And that works
too: OK, playing it on the Pi (eg using VLC) puts too much strain on the
CPU, but accessing the file across the network (using SMB) and playing on a
Windows PC is fine.

Some of this is testament to the CPU and USB controller, but ultimately the
data from three channels can be written to disk and one can be read back -
all over the USB2 link. But then this is not surprising. USB2 is 480
Mbit/sec and an HD recording is about 4-5 Mbit/sec. Speed of the disc itself
is more likely to be an issue, though a SATA disk can probably handle a few
1-3 Mbit/sec (SD) and 4-5 Mbit/sec (HD) streams without too much problem.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:56:16 +0100
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 06:56 UTC

In article <t449m5$img$1@dont-email.me>,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> My PVR is a Raspberry Pi 4 with various Freeview and Freesat
> tuners.

> but accessing the file across the network (using SMB) and playing
> on a Windows PC is fine.

If you can play the recordings via SMB from the recorded file does
that mean that the file has been stripped of the HDMI encryption or
have I misunderstood?


Bob.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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 by: NY - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:08 UTC

On 25/04/2022 07:56, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <t449m5$img$1@dont-email.me>,
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> My PVR is a Raspberry Pi 4 with various Freeview and Freesat
>> tuners.
>
>> but accessing the file across the network (using SMB) and playing
>> on a Windows PC is fine.
>
> If you can play the recordings via SMB from the recorded file does
> that mean that the file has been stripped of the HDMI encryption or
> have I misunderstood?

HD recordings that I have made in the UK using various PVR packages
(Windows Media Centre, Next PVR, TVHeadend) and USB DVB-T/S tuners have
never had any playback restrictions or encryption. I wonder if
manufacturers of dedicated PVR hardware are required to implement
copy-protection which is not present in standalone software.

The only copy protection that I've encountered is on a PVR (dedicated
hardware) that my parents have. This has a menu item which will allow SD
recordings to be copied to a USB memory stick, but the option is
greyed-out for HD recordings.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

<jcn2hfF5ggmU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:56:31 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:56 UTC

On 24/04/2022 19:55, Indy Jess John wrote:

>
> The disc is connected via a USB connection, and the speed of that is the
> limit to throughput.  My guess is that it is theoretically possible
> because the playback isn't using the single tuner, but unless it is a
> USB3 socket connecting to a USB3 disc, then concurrently recording and
> playing back at HD resolutions is pushing your luck.

HD is only around 0.5Mbps so even USB1 should cope.

My box (non-freesat) with an internal hard disk can cope with recording
8+ recordings at once whilst watching a recording (including watching
from the start of a recording that is still taking place).

High performance hard disks are not required for a PVR.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:52 UTC

In article <3tadnStPjpN21fv_nZ2dnUU7-IXNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> HD recordings that I have made in the UK using various PVR packages
> (Windows Media Centre, Next PVR, TVHeadend) and USB DVB-T/S tuners
> have never had any playback restrictions or encryption.

I have a Humax PVR which encrypts the recording using a code unique
to that individual machine. Consequently, you can transfer HD
recordings to another similar machine but they will not play.

However, I have installed custom firmware that auto decrypts the file
shortly after the recording finishes.

Interestingly, if you feed a Sky box into an HDMI modulator and
record the output that is also encryption free.

> I wonder if manufacturers of dedicated PVR hardware are required to
> implement copy-protection which is not present in standalone
> software.

Yes, I think that may be correct.

Bob.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
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 by: NY - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:12 UTC

"alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jcn2hfF5ggmU1@mid.individual.net...
> High performance hard disks are not required for a PVR.

Until I did the calculations, I'd always thought that they would be needed.
Where you would notice the difference between slow and fast HDD, or slow and
fast USB, would be if you were copying a recording flat-out from one disk to
another, rather than playing/recording it at normal broadcast speed.

How much does the seek time of HDDs vary from one make to another? I presume
fast seek allows the HDD to multiplex the writing to several different files
"simultaneously". Does that make a 10K or 7200 rpm disc better than a 5400
rpm one?

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

<bb819674-ae62-b75d-a858-0bf07511014e@outlook.com>

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From: rbw...@outlook.com (Robin)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:25:14 +0100
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 by: Robin - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:25 UTC

On 25/04/2022 08:08, NY wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 07:56, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <t449m5$img$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> My PVR is a Raspberry Pi 4 with various Freeview and Freesat
>>> tuners.
>>
>>> but accessing the file across the network (using SMB) and playing
>>> on a Windows PC is fine.
>>
>> If you can play the recordings via SMB from the recorded file does
>> that mean that the file has been stripped of the HDMI encryption or
>> have I misunderstood?
>
> HD recordings that I have made in the UK using various PVR packages
> (Windows Media Centre, Next PVR, TVHeadend) and USB DVB-T/S tuners have
> never had any playback restrictions or encryption. I wonder if
> manufacturers of dedicated PVR hardware are required to implement
> copy-protection which is not present in standalone software.
>

they are:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection>

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: unsteady...@gmail.com (Unsteadyken)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:00:30 +0100
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 by: Unsteadyken - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:00 UTC

In article <bb819674-ae62-b75d-a858-0bf07511014e@outlook.com>,
Robin says...

>
> they are:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection>
>

I have 2 UHD/4K capable PVRs; Sky Q & BT Youview.

Unless they are connected to a HDCP2.1 or HDCP2.2 compliant HDMI port
neither will output UHD/4K and are restricted to HD.

--
Ken

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 11:36:47 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:36 UTC

On 25/04/2022 09:12, NY wrote:
> "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jcn2hfF5ggmU1@mid.individual.net...
>> High performance hard disks are not required for a PVR.
>
> Until I did the calculations, I'd always thought that they would be
> needed. Where you would notice the difference between slow and fast HDD,
> or slow and fast USB, would be if you were copying a recording flat-out
> from one disk to another, rather than playing/recording it at normal
> broadcast speed.
>
> How much does the seek time of HDDs vary from one make to another? I
> presume fast seek allows the HDD to multiplex the writing to several
> different files "simultaneously". Does that make a 10K or 7200 rpm disc
> better than a 5400 rpm one?

Data transfer rate to a hard disk are Giga bits per second. Broadcast TV
is Giga bits per hour. Possibly even the slowest HDD is 1000x overkill
to record a single program. :) PVR disks tend to be formatted for large
partitions and large file sizes. My PVR disk is formatted at Ext4.

Even 15 years ago when I had a Topfield PVR there were third party
applications that allowed everything on a (Freeview) MUX to be recorded
at the same time. This was more experimental than useful as cheap hard
disks at the time were limited to maybe 150Mbytes and soon filled up if
recording a MUX.

A slower speed disk works extremely well in a PVR and if internally
mounted has the added advantage of being quieter and taking less power
allowing the box to run cooler. These latter two being important for
something that sits beneath your TV or maybe in an enclosed cabinet.

My PVR that can simultaneously record 8+ programs at a time whilst
watching a recording has a 5400 rpm 2.5" hard disk fitted internally via
a SATA connection.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: wrightsa...@f2s.com (williamwright)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 13:20:13 +0100
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 by: williamwright - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 12:20 UTC

On 25/04/2022 11:36, alan_m wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 09:12, NY wrote:
>> "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:jcn2hfF5ggmU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> High performance hard disks are not required for a PVR.
>>
>> Until I did the calculations, I'd always thought that they would be
>> needed. Where you would notice the difference between slow and fast
>> HDD, or slow and fast USB, would be if you were copying a recording
>> flat-out from one disk to another, rather than playing/recording it at
>> normal broadcast speed.
>>
>> How much does the seek time of HDDs vary from one make to another? I
>> presume fast seek allows the HDD to multiplex the writing to several
>> different files "simultaneously". Does that make a 10K or 7200 rpm
>> disc better than a 5400 rpm one?
>
> Data transfer rate to a hard disk are Giga bits per second. Broadcast TV
> is Giga bits per hour.  Possibly even the slowest HDD is 1000x overkill
> to record a single program. :)  PVR disks tend to be formatted for large
> partitions and large file sizes. My PVR disk is formatted at Ext4.
>
> Even 15 years ago when I had a Topfield PVR there were third party
> applications that allowed everything on a (Freeview) MUX to be recorded
> at the same time. This was more experimental than useful as cheap hard
> disks at the time were limited to maybe 150Mbytes and soon filled up if
> recording a MUX.
>
> A slower speed disk works extremely well in a PVR and if internally
> mounted has the added advantage of being quieter and taking less power
> allowing the box to run cooler. These latter two being important for
> something that sits beneath your TV or maybe in an enclosed cabinet.
>
> My PVR that can simultaneously record 8+ programs at a time whilst
> watching a recording has a 5400 rpm 2.5" hard disk fitted internally via
> a SATA connection.
>
>

I must have missed something here. I have two Humax Freesat boxes and
two Humax Freeview boxes. It's never occurred to me that I might not be
able to play back and record at the same time, on any of them. I
sometimes watch the playback of a programme while it's still being
recorded.
What have I missed?

Bill

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: me...@privacy.invalid (NY)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 14:38:13 +0100
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 by: NY - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 13:38 UTC

"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:jcnhvsF8eglU1@mid.individual.net...
> I must have missed something here. I have two Humax Freesat boxes and two
> Humax Freeview boxes. It's never occurred to me that I might not be able
> to play back and record at the same time, on any of them. I sometimes
> watch the playback of a programme while it's still being recorded.
> What have I missed?

Nothing. I've heard of HDD recorders (eg Sky or Freeview recorder) being
able to offer "chasing playback" (playing the beginning of a programme
before the end has finished recording) for years. Recording many programmes
simultaneously and/or playing several programmes simultaneously (eg over a
network on different PCs/TVs) obviously puts a lot more strain on the HDD
and the SATA or USB interface to it than one recording and one playback, but
as people have shown, the load is probably well within the capability of the
technology.

It's interesting that the restrictions on not being able to copy HD
programmes from a dedicated PVR to play them on another player (eg to give a
recording to a friend) doesn't seem to apply to "roll your own" PVRs
consisting of a generic computer (Windows, Linux) with USB DVB-T/S tuners
and software such as TVHeadend (to record) and VLC (to play). I certainly
like my slightly geeky solution because it allows me to edit out continuity
announcements and adverts, and watch at faster than real time playback if
I'm short of time. Maybe at some time in the future software that doesn't
implement copy/edit protection in the same way as dedicated PVRs will become
illegal - let them try to implement and enforce that ;-)

I've already fallen foul of one stupid Freeview / Freesat restriction with
our TV: when we bought it, it had the ability to define "favourite" channels
so you could have a subset of all the channels that were available so you
could do channel up/down over a small number instead of having to remember
today's LCN for a channel. But the buggers forced a software update without
telling people of the implications, and that took away the "favourite"
feature (*) so you only see the full set of channels - and there a lot of
them for Freesat ;-) Trying to remember the Freeview LCN and the Freesat
LCN of a given channel is a pain - which bozo decided that a given channel
would have different LCNs on Freeview, Freesat, Sky and Virgin? Indeed why
should Freesat and Sky be different - surely Freesat should be a subset of
Sky (excluding the Sky-only channels).

(*) When I rang Philips to ask where the feature and gone, I was told
"Freeview imposed the change on us - we had to implement it or else we'd
lose the right to use the term Freeview". The guy did say "the restriction
doesn't apply for other countries", in a way that made it obvious he was
giving me a very big unspoken hint. The solution (and this has been
discussed in internet forums) is to redo the setup but specify my country as
somewhere else in Europe: the Favourites feature returned, at the expense of
it having to do a full VHF+UHF scan because it didn't ask for postcode to
determine transmitter and therefore mux frequencies. But even that loophole
has been plugged now. The bastards: how dare they force vendors to remove a
feature that was universally available, simply so you can't edit your
channel list to exclude channels you never watch.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:32:51 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:32 UTC

On 25/04/2022 14:38, NY wrote:

> But even that loophole has been plugged now. The bastards:
> how dare they force vendors to remove a feature that was universally
> available, simply so you can't edit your channel list to exclude
> channels you never watch.

Even worse is not allowing the order in which channels appear in the list.

At least on my Enigma2 box running Openvix I can set-up a favourites
list of channels and put the channels I'm more likely to watch at the
top of the list.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: wib...@btinternet.com (David)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: 25 Apr 2022 15:39:07 GMT
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 by: David - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:39 UTC

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:13:05 +0000, David wrote:

> Yet again I am wanting to watch the F1 Qualifying highlights from
> yesterday whilst the Humax box is recording the highlights from today's
> race.
>
> The Humax HB1000S has a single tuner, so I can only record one thing,
> but can I safely play back a recording whilst a new recording is being
> made?
>
> If not, what would be a suitable Freesat box to be able to do this?
>
> For context, I have a VM box downstairs which can do this, but I like to
> watch F1 on the bedroom set so that I don't compete for the downstairs
> set during prime time viewing.
>
> Every time this comes up I make a mental note to sort this out, but then
> forget.

OK
Thanks all.
Looks like I was worrying unnecessarily.

I will go away and schedule a recording and test playback when it is
recording.

Thanks

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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From: unsteady...@gmail.com (Unsteadyken)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 17:26:38 +0100
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 by: Unsteadyken - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:26 UTC

In article <t4688l$stl$1@dont-email.me>,
NY says...

> The bastards: how dare they force vendors to remove a
> feature that was universally available, simply so you can't edit your
> channel list to exclude channels you never watch.
>
They have not forced LG to do this. My recent LG TV has 6 favourite
lists which allow channel reordering. And also allows unwanted channels
to be hidden in the standard channel list.

Freeview says:
https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/favourite-channels

--
Ken

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: void-inv...@email.invalid (Brian Gregory)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:23:10 +0100
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 by: Brian Gregory - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 17:23 UTC

On 25/04/2022 08:56, alan_m wrote:
> HD is only around 0.5Mbps so even USB1 should cope.

No. An HD TV channel is around 2 to 6 Mbps, sometimes even more on
satellite.

Are you perhaps muddling Mb (megabits) with MB (megabytes)?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: jun...@admac.myzen.co.uk (alan_m)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:38:13 +0100
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 by: alan_m - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:38 UTC

On 25/04/2022 18:23, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 08:56, alan_m wrote:
>> HD is only around 0.5Mbps so even USB1 should cope.
>
> No. An HD TV channel is around 2 to 6 Mbps, sometimes even more on
> satellite.
>
> Are you perhaps muddling Mb (megabits) with MB (megabytes)?
>

You are correct, a decimal point in the wrong place:( A lot of my HD
recordings are around 2Gbytes per hour (4.4Mbs). But it doesn't change
that a PVR only needs a low speed/power hard disk.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: me...@privacy.net (NY)
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 by: NY - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:42 UTC

On 25/04/2022 17:26, Unsteadyken wrote:
> In article <t4688l$stl$1@dont-email.me>,
>
> NY says...
>
>> The bastards: how dare they force vendors to remove a
>> feature that was universally available, simply so you can't edit your
>> channel list to exclude channels you never watch.
>>
> They have not forced LG to do this. My recent LG TV has 6 favourite
> lists which allow channel reordering. And also allows unwanted channels
> to be hidden in the standard channel list.
>
> Freeview says:
> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/favourite-channels

Hmmm. So Philips tech support were telling me a load of porkies. They
swore blind that they had been forced by Freeview/Freesat to withdraw a
feature which they knew their customers liked and relied on.

I'd got the TV set up just the way I wanted it, with two different ITV
regions for different local news, just the channels we watched, etc. And
then the TV started nagging every hours or so "Do you want to update the
software". So eventually I did, having first taken a security copy of
the channel setup - which couldn't be read back in after the update had
restored everything (including contrast, brightness, sharpness etc) back
to factory state. I was NOT impressed.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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 by: NY - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:52 UTC

On 25/04/2022 18:23, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 08:56, alan_m wrote:
>> HD is only around 0.5Mbps so even USB1 should cope.
>
> No. An HD TV channel is around 2 to 6 Mbps, sometimes even more on
> satellite.
>
> Are you perhaps muddling Mb (megabits) with MB (megabytes)?

The highest bitrate I've seen for SD has been about 6 Mbps, for an
archive programme on BBC1 that was presumably originated on PAL and
therefore had a bit more noise and didn't compress so well.

HD on satellite (BBC1 at 22:45) is around 4.5-5 Mbps. On SD, it's
remarkably similar (around 4.3-4.5) - lower resolution but less
efficient compression being MPEG rather than H264.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: dav...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid (David Woolley)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 11:07:02 +0100
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 by: David Woolley - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:07 UTC

On 25/04/2022 22:52, NY wrote:
>
> The highest bitrate I've seen for SD has been about 6 Mbps, for an
> archive programme on BBC1 that was presumably originated on PAL and
> therefore had a bit more noise and didn't compress so well.

I think that must have been a policy choice, based on other users at the
time. Video codecs generally only specify how to decode. The encoder
then endeavours to produce something which, when decoded, best
approximates the original (in human terms) within the bit rate constraints.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
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 by: NY - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 11:08 UTC

"David Woolley" <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message
news:t48g87$61m$1@dont-email.me...
> On 25/04/2022 22:52, NY wrote:
>>
>> The highest bitrate I've seen for SD has been about 6 Mbps, for an
>> archive programme on BBC1 that was presumably originated on PAL and
>> therefore had a bit more noise and didn't compress so well.
>
> I think that must have been a policy choice, based on other users at the
> time. Video codecs generally only specify how to decode. The encoder
> then endeavours to produce something which, when decoded, best
> approximates the original (in human terms) within the bit rate
> constraints.

Yes what I was implying is that the H264 codec of HD can tolerate greater
amounts of compression than the MPEG-1 codec of SD, for the same subjective
image quality. And H265 (UHD) is even better.

HD is 1920x1080 (about 2 million pixels) and SD is 720x576 (about 0.4
million pixels), and yet the more efficient H264 codec manages to compress
5x as many pixels into a data rate that is comparable or only slightly
greater than SD/MPEG, without sacrificing image quality with visible
compression artefacts. My impression is that H264's error-correction isn't
quite as rugged, so when a glitch occurs it is sometimes more visible, and
it is a real pig to decode, so players which can easily shuttle through MPEG
at 10x speed (when locating a part of a recording) have to start dropping
lots of frames; at first I thought this was due to the greater number of
pixels, but it happens even with sub-SD 544x576 channels that are encoded
with H264, and they have 3/4 the number of pixels of SD.

The encoder which multiplexes many channels together statistically (ie the
proportion of bandwidth for each channel varies from one instant to another
depending on picture complexity of each channel at that moment) is probably
instructed by the broadcaster that when an archive programme is being shown,
a disproportionately high bitrate is used because the extra noise in PAL
masters means that a "traditional" bit rate produces nasty compression
artefacts.

Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?

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From: dav...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid (David Woolley)
Newsgroups: uk.tech.digital-tv
Subject: Re: Humax HB1000S - record and play back at same time?
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 by: David Woolley - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:30 UTC

On 26/04/2022 12:08, NY wrote:
> or only slightly greater than SD/MPEG, without sacrificing image quality
> with visible compression artefacts. My impression is that H264's
> error-correction isn't quite as rugged, so when a glitch occurs it is
> sometimes more visible

I would have thought that was more a question of how the codec was used.
If you rely a lot of coding motion, and send very few key frames, you
will save bandwidth, but dropouts will cause old content to wander
around the screen for a long time.

Video codecs send occasional key frames, which are complete detailed
frames, between those they send instructions to move parts of the
picture around, and they also transmit differences between what the
picture would look like if transmitted correctly, and what it would look
like if sent using a more ideal system. Only a key frame will reset any
errors due to lost or corrupted data.

Error correction on the raw data stream is, I believe, done at the
multiplex level, not the channel level, so independent of codec.

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