<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>
>

It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how “encouragement”
will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
options depending on how things pan out.

On 07/07/2021 07:25, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>
>>
>
> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how “encouragement”
> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
> options depending on how things pan out.
>

Being reasonable doesn't make good scare headlines.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>
>>
>
> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how “encouragement”
> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
> options depending on how things pan out.
>
>

I wonder if the flight from towns and cities to the countryside that we are
told has happened to an extent will have any effect on rail provision in
the next few decades .
Cornwall and to a lesser extent Devon are two counties where many such
people are supposed to have headed and certainly at the moment the property
market down there has been distorted by
people from up country buying anything available that suits their
requirements many without even viewing.

Commuting daily over the distance back to London will be too far but those
who have moved there may well wish to come back to HQ on occasions and once
established will start to use rail.
If they do so in enough numbers there may be calls to alleviate the
pressure on the existing network
by reinstating some closed lines, Okehampton is happening so the next
candidate would logically be the gap between there and Bere Alston
providing a second link again but could we in the future
see some of the North Cornwall route reinstated Wadebridge is already being
mooted but if I am able to live to 100 I wonder if I could see a train at
Bude or Launceston* again.
looking at numbers for the Night Riviera sleeper to Cornwall over the
next couple of years may be interesting,I suspect many newcomers havn’t
discovered it yet.

* I mean a full size one that runs on the national network before some
clever dick mentions the narrow gauge there.

GH

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>
>

A relevant Twitter thread:

<https://twitter.com/noeldolphin/status/1412321469745487873?s=21>

"Disappointed whole UK mask debate is framed around trains, with various
ministers discussing how busy/quiet would it need to be for them to
wear/not wear a mask on a train. There will be long term public perception
issues. The risk is any busy indoor place, with low ventilation

The risk on trains has been researched, Gov should be using research not
gut feel and not using rail as an analogy for any generic location.
<https://www.rssb.co.uk/-/media/Project/RSSB/RssbWebsite/Documents/Public/Public-content/Insight-and-News/2020-08-Methodology-C19-Infection-Risk-v11-jan-2021.pdf>

The issue I have is the use of rail as an analogy for all UK covid risks.
If you listed to Boris's & Sajid's response to questions last night & knew
nothing else about covid you would assume the vast and overwhelming
majority of cases in the the UK were due to rail.

The Gov does not use RSSB research - I have done a freedom of information
request and they confirmed they don't use when making Covid decisions on
rail. I agree we should have up to date research- but it will be of little
real benefit if it is not used.

On TV they are encouraging people to go to crowded nightclubs after the
19th, but discouraging people from using public transport. NR is cutting
1/4 its staff in Anglia as a trial before rolling that on to every region.
Every TOC will soon be doing the same.

My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
it every day."

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>
>>
>
> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how “encouragement”
> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
> options depending on how things pan out.
>
>

There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is higher than
pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
non-commuting passengers back to rail.

IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
suggests other trains are empty.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:24:43 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>it every day."

If the bed wetting neurotics stay away from the trains and tube it'll be
good news for those of us who use them. It does make the expense of HS2
- and to a lesser extent crossrail - seem even more absurd however though
given the sunken cost fallacy that seems to rule whitehall there'll be
no turning back on HS2 regardless.

Am 07.07.2021 um 11:24 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:

> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
> suggests other trains are empty.

Is that being enforced in UK? In Germany, we just have symbols in the
electronic time-table "probably more than half full".

I recently had my first train trip since Covid. On the way out, the
train was 30% full, quite relaxing, I was able to eat and drink at my
seat without feeling uncomfortable.
On the way back, the train was 80% full, no chance to sit alone. I sat
next to somebody and did not dare to eat or drink until the person next
to me had left the train.

Rolf "fully vaccinated now"

<MrSpud_f7YA@30u3.biz> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:24:43 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>> it every day."
>
> If the bed wetting neurotics stay away from the trains and tube it'll be
> good news for those of us who use them. …

Even though lower passenger numbers will mean prices will go up, or subsidy
and therefore tax burden will have to rise, and services are likely to be
cut. OK.

> … It does make the expense of HS2
> - and to a lesser extent crossrail - seem even more absurd however though
> given the sunken cost fallacy that seems to rule whitehall there'll be
> no turning back on HS2 regardless.

No comment.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sc3rsr$7nd$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:43 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb64449
>>>29?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
>> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
>> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how
>>“encouragement”
>> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
>> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
>> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
>> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
>> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
>> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
>> options depending on how things pan out.
>
>There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is higher than
>pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
>non-commuting passengers back to rail.
>
>IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>suggests other trains are empty.

Not just photos of trains. I posed something earlier in the week showing
Littleport station car park virtually empty (normally it would be 90%
full) and Ely station car park is still only about half full (normally
would be rammed from 7am, with two overflow car parks run by the
council).
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:54:54 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><MrSpud_f7YA@30u3.biz> wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:24:43 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>>> it every day."
>>
>> If the bed wetting neurotics stay away from the trains and tube it'll be
>> good news for those of us who use them. …
>
>Even though lower passenger numbers will mean prices will go up, or subsidy
>and therefore tax burden will have to rise, and services are likely to be
>cut. OK.

I guess we'll find out soon enough. However I'd pay a bit more to actually
get a seat and not be squashed up against a door for 30 mins.

I suspect however that over time the melts will eventually find a working
pair of bollocks - or just get sick of wfh or sitting in traffic jams - that
they'll gradually return to the trains.

On 07/07/2021 10:24, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>
>>
>
> A relevant Twitter thread:
>
> <https://twitter.com/noeldolphin/status/1412321469745487873?s=21>
>
> "Disappointed whole UK mask debate is framed around trains, with various
> ministers discussing how busy/quiet would it need to be for them to
> wear/not wear a mask on a train. There will be long term public perception
> issues. The risk is any busy indoor place, with low ventilation
>
> The risk on trains has been researched, Gov should be using research not
> gut feel and not using rail as an analogy for any generic location.
> <https://www.rssb.co.uk/-/media/Project/RSSB/RssbWebsite/Documents/Public/Public-content/Insight-and-News/2020-08-Methodology-C19-Infection-Risk-v11-jan-2021.pdf>
>
> The issue I have is the use of rail as an analogy for all UK covid risks.
> If you listed to Boris's & Sajid's response to questions last night & knew
> nothing else about covid you would assume the vast and overwhelming
> majority of cases in the the UK were due to rail.
>
> The Gov does not use RSSB research - I have done a freedom of information
> request and they confirmed they don't use when making Covid decisions on
> rail. I agree we should have up to date research- but it will be of little
> real benefit if it is not used.
>
> On TV they are encouraging people to go to crowded nightclubs after the
> 19th, but discouraging people from using public transport. NR is cutting
> 1/4 its staff in Anglia as a trial before rolling that on to every region.
> Every TOC will soon be doing the same.
>
> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
> it every day."

The railway ToCs are not helping themselves either.

TfW have yet to reinstate their early and late services and will not do
so until September at least. This makes some day trips I would normally
undertake in the summer unviable and I would so this year if possible.

Services through Bristol Temple Meads railway stations are heavily
restricted through the school summer holidays. I accept this would be
the period with the lowest number of travellers in a normal year but
this year is not normal. This year most journeys through that station
are likely to be optional pleasure ones with a peak during the summer so
the inconvenience has been maximised.

I wanted to make a second attempt to do Cogan to Penzance and back in a
day next month but that it not longer with the summer timetable. At
least I'm safe from arrest by BTP for suspicion of a prohibited journey.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sc3rsr$7nd$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:43 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb64449
>>>> 29?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
>>> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
>>> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how
>>> “encouragement”
>>> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
>>> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
>>> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
>>> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
>>> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
>>> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
>>> options depending on how things pan out.
>>
>> There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is higher than
>> pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
>> non-commuting passengers back to rail.
>>
>> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>> suggests other trains are empty.
>
> Not just photos of trains. I posed something earlier in the week showing
> Littleport station car park virtually empty (normally it would be 90%
> full) and Ely station car park is still only about half full (normally
> would be rammed from 7am, with two overflow car parks run by the
> council).

Would that be full with commuters (who mostly aren't currently travelling)
or off-peak travellers, who could very much be travelling by rail?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<MrSpud_f7YA@30u3.biz> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:24:43 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>> it every day."
>
> If the bed wetting neurotics stay away from the trains and tube it'll be
> good news for those of us who use them. It does make the expense of HS2
> - and to a lesser extent crossrail - seem even more absurd however though
> given the sunken cost fallacy that seems to rule whitehall there'll be
> no turning back on HS2 regardless.
>
>

HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And
eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <sc43sl$462$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:41:09 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sc3rsr$7nd$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:43 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb64449
>>>>> 29?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
>>>> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
>>>> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how
>>>> “encouragement”
>>>> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
>>>> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
>>>> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
>>>> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
>>>> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
>>>> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
>>>> options depending on how things pan out.
>>>
>>> There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is higher than
>>> pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
>>> non-commuting passengers back to rail.
>>>
>>> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>>> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>>> suggests other trains are empty.
>>
>> Not just photos of trains. I posed something earlier in the week showing
>> Littleport station car park virtually empty (normally it would be 90%
>> full) and Ely station car park is still only about half full (normally
>> would be rammed from 7am, with two overflow car parks run by the
>> council).
>
>Would that be full with commuters (who mostly aren't currently travelling)
>or off-peak travellers, who could very much be travelling by rail?

Given that both would have filled up before 8am, I suspect not very many
off-peak travellers. (Although the Littleport one would have a handful
of spaces for them).
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:41:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><MrSpud_f7YA@30u3.biz> wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:24:43 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>>> it every day."
>>
>> If the bed wetting neurotics stay away from the trains and tube it'll be
>> good news for those of us who use them. It does make the expense of HS2
>> - and to a lesser extent crossrail - seem even more absurd however though
>> given the sunken cost fallacy that seems to rule whitehall there'll be
>> no turning back on HS2 regardless.
>>
>>
>
>HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
>WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And

I doesn't look like we'll need that capacity anytime soon and if we did there
are cheaper ways of achieving it. Eg electrify the whole MML for a start which
would cost buttons compared to HS2. But the fact that government will spend
100bn on HS2 but won't fork out for the last 50 miles of wires for the MML
shows just how fucked up their thinking is.

>eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
>the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).

The sort of clowns who fly to edinburgh from london to save maybe an hour
when you take travel time to and from airports and all the faffing around that
involves into account, arn't going to switch to any train no matter how fast.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 07/07/2021 10:24, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A relevant Twitter thread:
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/noeldolphin/status/1412321469745487873?s=21>
>>
>> "Disappointed whole UK mask debate is framed around trains, with various
>> ministers discussing how busy/quiet would it need to be for them to
>> wear/not wear a mask on a train. There will be long term public perception
>> issues. The risk is any busy indoor place, with low ventilation
>>
>> The risk on trains has been researched, Gov should be using research not
>> gut feel and not using rail as an analogy for any generic location.
>> <https://www.rssb.co.uk/-/media/Project/RSSB/RssbWebsite/Documents/Public/Public-content/Insight-and-News/2020-08-Methodology-C19-Infection-Risk-v11-jan-2021.pdf>
>>
>> The issue I have is the use of rail as an analogy for all UK covid risks.
>> If you listed to Boris's & Sajid's response to questions last night & knew
>> nothing else about covid you would assume the vast and overwhelming
>> majority of cases in the the UK were due to rail.
>>
>> The Gov does not use RSSB research - I have done a freedom of information
>> request and they confirmed they don't use when making Covid decisions on
>> rail. I agree we should have up to date research- but it will be of little
>> real benefit if it is not used.
>>
>> On TV they are encouraging people to go to crowded nightclubs after the
>> 19th, but discouraging people from using public transport. NR is cutting
>> 1/4 its staff in Anglia as a trial before rolling that on to every region.
>> Every TOC will soon be doing the same.
>>
>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>> it every day."
>
> The railway ToCs are not helping themselves either.
>
> TfW have yet to reinstate their early and late services and will not do
> so until September at least. This makes some day trips I would normally
> undertake in the summer unviable and I would so this year if possible.
>
> Services through Bristol Temple Meads railway stations are heavily
> restricted through the school summer holidays. I accept this would be
> the period with the lowest number of travellers in a normal year but
> this year is not normal. This year most journeys through that station
> are likely to be optional pleasure ones with a peak during the summer so
> the inconvenience has been maximised.
>
> I wanted to make a second attempt to do Cogan to Penzance and back in a
> day next month but that it not longer with the summer timetable. At
> least I'm safe from arrest by BTP for suspicion of a prohibited journey.
>
>

There are massive engineering works at Bristol Temple Meads this summer.
Basically the entire east-end station throat is being replaced with new
pointwork, an extra line and new layout.

Many of the replies to gWr's FB posts about this have been along the lines
of "couldn't you have done this last year when nobody was travelling?". I
keep replying to the effect of, as most in this group already recognise;
these works have been in planning for around a decade, preparatory works
(new pointwork and a huge new signal gantry installed but not yet
commissioned, plus more not so visible) were carried out over the last year
- so to move these works to last year you'd have had to move those works to
pre-covid! And probably move 2018's resignalling back too… Plus the staff
for this project will have been working on other projects then, so those
would have had to be either cancelled or moved, too…

I'll do a post about the works when I get chance; there'll be opportunities
to ride around the "Rhubarb" curve, Bristol East Depot down goods loop, and
the single line through St Philips Marsh (SPM) depot.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sc43sl$462$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:41:09 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sc3rsr$7nd$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:43 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb64449
>>>>>> 29?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
>>>>> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
>>>>> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how
>>>>> “encouragement”
>>>>> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
>>>>> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
>>>>> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
>>>>> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the settled state of
>>>>> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not obvious to me
>>>>> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
>>>>> options depending on how things pan out.
>>>>
>>>> There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is higher than
>>>> pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
>>>> non-commuting passengers back to rail.
>>>>
>>>> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>>>> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>>>> suggests other trains are empty.
>>>
>>> Not just photos of trains. I posed something earlier in the week showing
>>> Littleport station car park virtually empty (normally it would be 90%
>>> full) and Ely station car park is still only about half full (normally
>>> would be rammed from 7am, with two overflow car parks run by the
>>> council).
>>
>> Would that be full with commuters (who mostly aren't currently travelling)
>> or off-peak travellers, who could very much be travelling by rail?
>
> Given that both would have filled up before 8am, I suspect not very many
> off-peak travellers. (Although the Littleport one would have a handful
> of spaces for them).

So it's entirely possible that the car parks can be empty but the off-peak
trains heavily (FSVO) loaded.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <sc4bk9$r5v$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:53:13 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sc43sl$462$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:41:09 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sc3rsr$7nd$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:24:43 on Wed, 7 Jul 2021,
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb64449
>>>>>>> 29?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to be rather premature criticism. Their main moan is there is no
>>>>>> plan to encourage passengers back to rail. Assuming that the bulk of
>>>>>> traffic loss is due to people not commuting I can’t see how
>>>>>> “encouragement”
>>>>>> will change things. People will base their decision on how much they want
>>>>>> to cut down on working from home, and/or what the view of their employer
>>>>>> is. Using the train is just a necessary evil for most people in that
>>>>>> position. It’s going to take a few months yet before the
>>>>>>settled state of
>>>>>> the future of working from home becomes apparent. It’s not
>>>>>>obvious to me
>>>>>> how anyone on the railway can produce a plan right now. Perhaps various
>>>>>> options depending on how things pan out.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's currently plenty of demand for travel - road traffic is
>>>>>higher than
>>>>> pre-covid - but there's apparently little effort made to attract
>>>>> non-commuting passengers back to rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>>>>> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>>>>> suggests other trains are empty.
>>>>
>>>> Not just photos of trains. I posed something earlier in the week showing
>>>> Littleport station car park virtually empty (normally it would be 90%
>>>> full) and Ely station car park is still only about half full (normally
>>>> would be rammed from 7am, with two overflow car parks run by the
>>>> council).
>>>
>>> Would that be full with commuters (who mostly aren't currently travelling)
>>> or off-peak travellers, who could very much be travelling by rail?
>>
>> Given that both would have filled up before 8am, I suspect not very many
>> off-peak travellers. (Although the Littleport one would have a handful
>> of spaces for them).
>
>So it's entirely possible that the car parks can be empty but the off-peak
>trains heavily (FSVO) loaded.

Only if you think people can suddenly change mode to arriving at the
station not by car. In practice at stations like Littleport, the number
of off-peak pax was in single figures per train. It's all about
commuting to jobs mainly in Cambridge.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:41:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
>WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And
>eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
>the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).

Which last bit is why you might expect the Greens to support it.

On 07/07/2021 14:53, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/07/2021 10:24, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cc9660be-de9d-11eb-ab4e-c25eb6444929?shareToken=3fbdd62d58480bd197d151a465c1bd8c>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A relevant Twitter thread:
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/noeldolphin/status/1412321469745487873?s=21>
>>>
>>> "Disappointed whole UK mask debate is framed around trains, with various
>>> ministers discussing how busy/quiet would it need to be for them to
>>> wear/not wear a mask on a train. There will be long term public perception
>>> issues. The risk is any busy indoor place, with low ventilation
>>>
>>> The risk on trains has been researched, Gov should be using research not
>>> gut feel and not using rail as an analogy for any generic location.
>>> <https://www.rssb.co.uk/-/media/Project/RSSB/RssbWebsite/Documents/Public/Public-content/Insight-and-News/2020-08-Methodology-C19-Infection-Risk-v11-jan-2021.pdf>
>>>
>>> The issue I have is the use of rail as an analogy for all UK covid risks.
>>> If you listed to Boris's & Sajid's response to questions last night & knew
>>> nothing else about covid you would assume the vast and overwhelming
>>> majority of cases in the the UK were due to rail.
>>>
>>> The Gov does not use RSSB research - I have done a freedom of information
>>> request and they confirmed they don't use when making Covid decisions on
>>> rail. I agree we should have up to date research- but it will be of little
>>> real benefit if it is not used.
>>>
>>> On TV they are encouraging people to go to crowded nightclubs after the
>>> 19th, but discouraging people from using public transport. NR is cutting
>>> 1/4 its staff in Anglia as a trial before rolling that on to every region.
>>> Every TOC will soon be doing the same.
>>>
>>> My ultimate worry is these people using cars rather than trains as
>>> collectively scared them senseless are never coming back to public
>>> transport. I fear most of the damage is done, and we are just reinforcing
>>> it every day."
>>
>> The railway ToCs are not helping themselves either.
>>
>> TfW have yet to reinstate their early and late services and will not do
>> so until September at least. This makes some day trips I would normally
>> undertake in the summer unviable and I would so this year if possible.
>>
>> Services through Bristol Temple Meads railway stations are heavily
>> restricted through the school summer holidays. I accept this would be
>> the period with the lowest number of travellers in a normal year but
>> this year is not normal. This year most journeys through that station
>> are likely to be optional pleasure ones with a peak during the summer so
>> the inconvenience has been maximised.
>>
>> I wanted to make a second attempt to do Cogan to Penzance and back in a
>> day next month but that it not longer with the summer timetable. At
>> least I'm safe from arrest by BTP for suspicion of a prohibited journey.
>>
>>
>
> There are massive engineering works at Bristol Temple Meads this summer.
> Basically the entire east-end station throat is being replaced with new
> pointwork, an extra line and new layout.
>
> Many of the replies to gWr's FB posts about this have been along the lines
> of "couldn't you have done this last year when nobody was travelling?". I
> keep replying to the effect of, as most in this group already recognise;
> these works have been in planning for around a decade, preparatory works
> (new pointwork and a huge new signal gantry installed but not yet
> commissioned, plus more not so visible) were carried out over the last year
> - so to move these works to last year you'd have had to move those works to
> pre-covid! And probably move 2018's resignalling back too… Plus the staff
> for this project will have been working on other projects then, so those
> would have had to be either cancelled or moved, too…
>
> I'll do a post about the works when I get chance; there'll be opportunities
> to ride around the "Rhubarb" curve, Bristol East Depot down goods loop, and
> the single line through St Philips Marsh (SPM) depot.
>
>
Thanks.

I knew about the Bristol Est Depot down goods loop and Rhubarb curve and
have a plan in hand but didn't about line through the depot. I have
done that line previously but obviously need a second plan is needed as
well.

Please keep us posted.

On 07/07/2021 16:15, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:41:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
>> WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And
>> eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
>> the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).
>
> Which last bit is why you might expect the Greens to support it.
>

One thing I've learnt from here is that people who fly here, there, and
everywhere close their minds to any possible alternative such as
ferries or Eurostar.

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 07.07.2021 um 11:24 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>
>> IMX some trains are busy (if 2+2 seating is now effectively 1+1, then
>> they're 'full and standing'), while photographic evidence on social media
>> suggests other trains are empty.
>
> Is that being enforced in UK? In Germany, we just have symbols in the
> electronic time-table "probably more than half full".

No, it's not being enforced. People just try to keep their distance.

>
> I recently had my first train trip since Covid. On the way out, the
> train was 30% full, quite relaxing, I was able to eat and drink at my
> seat without feeling uncomfortable.
> On the way back, the train was 80% full, no chance to sit alone. I sat
> next to somebody and did not dare to eat or drink until the person next
> to me had left the train.
>
> Rolf "fully vaccinated now"
>

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 07/07/2021 16:15, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:41:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
>>> WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And
>>> eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
>>> the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).
>>
>> Which last bit is why you might expect the Greens to support it.
>>
>
>
> One thing I've learnt from here is that people who fly here, there, and
> everywhere close their minds to any possible alternative such as
> ferries or Eurostar.
>

There’s one thing that is rarely mentioned in this sort of argument. By
rail the journey is often significantly longer (I’m comparing Birmingham to
Glasgow at 1hr 20 minutes flying, approx 5 hours by train, a journey I want
to make soon). Costs are comparable *but* only if I go standard class. Just
over an hour on a cramped plane is fine. 5 hours on what is an increasingly
less pleasant standard class is something different. So I look at first
class fares and recoil with the shock. So plane it is. Same with Eurostar -
standard class is cramped and pre pandemic very full.

On 07/07/2021 18:26, Tweed wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/07/2021 16:15, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 11:41:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> HS2 will free up lots of capacity for stopping trains and freight on the
>>>> WCML, Birmingham area and eventually Manchester area, MML and ECML too. And
>>>> eventually has potential to reduce London-Edinburgh air travel (currently
>>>> the 6th busiest air corridor in Europe).
>>>
>>> Which last bit is why you might expect the Greens to support it.
>>
>> One thing I've learnt from here is that people who fly here, there, and
>> everywhere close their minds to any possible alternative such as
>> ferries or Eurostar.
>
> There’s one thing that is rarely mentioned in this sort of argument. By
> rail the journey is often significantly longer (I’m comparing Birmingham to
> Glasgow at 1hr 20 minutes flying, approx 5 hours by train, a journey I want
> to make soon). Costs are comparable *but* only if I go standard class. Just
> over an hour on a cramped plane is fine. 5 hours on what is an increasingly
> less pleasant standard class is something different. So I look at first
> class fares and recoil with the shock. So plane it is. Same with Eurostar -
> standard class is cramped and pre pandemic very full.

You can often get a cheap First Class rail fare if you book as far in
advance as you might for a flight. First class air travel can be
extortionate too, though comparison with business class might be fairer.