On 04/07/2022 11:59, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:jift2eFtj0aU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 04/07/2022 11:02, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> im Lesurf wrote:
>>>
>>>> AIUI the BBC have said that BBC4 will be dropped from 'Freeview' at
>>>> some
>>>> point
>>> I interpret that as a call to pre-emptively complain about losing it
>>> (like 6music)
>> Indeed.
>>
>> I challenge anybody to produce a quote from anybody in BBC management
>> saying that BBC 4 *Will* close ?
>>
>> What Tim Davey said is, 'services *such as*...BBC 4 might have to close
>
> If the BBC mention the word "close", even if it is qualified by
> "might" or "could", I think we can take it as read that it is the firm
> plan to do so, even if this is an internal-only-not-for-publication
> plan. Or am I just being cynical?
>
Well there might be a plan, but as Andy reminds us we went through the
same thing regarding 6 Music, it was eventually retained, through
'listener outrage'
Perhaps the Beeb are trying to stir up outrage over BBC 4, and if none
materialises then that gives them the mandate to close it.

Whatever, nothing is due to happen for another 3 or 4 years, so anything
could happen before then

On 04/07/2022 10:20, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> Change here was on the 30th. Since then we've had BBC4 SD on a channel
> number specific to Scotland. Along with a message that BBC4 will "return
> soon".

The message actually says that "BBC 4 HD will return soon" both in the
caption and EPG (?). Presumably written by someone down South who is
unaware of Freeview Lite.

On 04/07/2022 10:53, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 04/07/2022 10:40, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Robin wrote:
>>
>>> NY wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can see the arguments for and against making COM7/8 into
>>>> single-frequency networks. But when it was decided to do this, why
>>>> did they choose such high carrier frequencies, *above* the 700 MHz
>>>> threshold that was being sold off?
>>
>> Raking in a few quid before the spectrum auctions had taken place and
>> the mobile networks were ready to start using it.
>>
>>> From its conception t'was only ever going to be a temporary service.
>>
>> True enough.
>>
>>> It used spectrum that even in 2013 was headed for mobile operators.
>> COM7 was originally at CH31,32,33 depending on transmitter and COM8 at
>> CH34,35,37 similarly.
>>
> Yes, I lose track of what was intended, but as I said in the other post,
> this sub band (500 MHz band) had originally been cleared of broadcast
> services, and lay empty between DSO in each area, and COM 7 and 8 coming
> along in 2013/4.
>
> I can't remember whether the original intention was to flog this off too ?
>

Yes, sorry, my cock-up. The original space was free but earmarked by
Ofcom for moving existing services from 700 to 600 so they offered
temporary use till (I think) 2018 so one remove from that tranche of
mobile services.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 04/07/2022 13:40, MB wrote:
> On 04/07/2022 10:20, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>> Change here was on the 30th. Since then we've had BBC4 SD on a channel
>> number specific to Scotland. Along with a message that BBC4 will "return
>> soon".
>
> The message actually says that "BBC 4 HD will return soon" both in the
> caption and EPG (?). Presumably written by someone down South who is
> unaware of Freeview Lite.

How would you have engineered separate captions for ex COM 7 and non COM
7 transmitters then ?
It's not even a case of Freeview Lite, there are 50 main six-mux
transmitters that never carried COM 7 either.

And Freeview Lite has nothing to do with North/South etc. The
Hammersmith and Alexandra Palace transmitters (for instance) are
Freeview Lite

"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:t9un4e$3ck27$1@dont-email.me...
> On 04/07/2022 10:20, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>> Change here was on the 30th. Since then we've had BBC4 SD on a channel
>> number specific to Scotland. Along with a message that BBC4 will "return
>> soon".
>
> The message actually says that "BBC 4 HD will return soon" both in the
> caption and EPG (?). Presumably written by someone down South who is
> unaware of Freeview Lite.

Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all* transmitters, even
Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.

In article <ta0sr0$3ln72$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all* transmitters,
> even Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.

May depend on your unstated definitions of "all" and "available". I just
checked and here it *still* shows the "available soon" messages and points
to ch24 for the (non HD) version.

Maybe your "all" means "in England"?

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 05/07/2022 09:56, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <ta0sr0$3ln72$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all* transmitters,
>> even Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.
> May depend on your unstated definitions of "all" and "available". I just
> checked and here it *still* shows the "available soon" messages and points
> to ch24 for the (non HD) version.
>
There is currently no live stream of BBC 4 HD on PSB 3 (or any other mux)

All that exists (since June 29th) is a place holder on PSB3 on LCN 106,
linked to MHEG caption stating 'available soon'
and advising punters to go away and continue to use the SD version on
LCN 9 (LCN 24 in Scotland)

PSB 3 is carried by every DTT transmitter in the UK. (1154 sites)

On 06/07/2022 10:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 05/07/2022 09:56, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>> In article <ta0sr0$3ln72$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all* transmitters,
>>> even Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.
>> May depend on your unstated definitions of "all" and "available". I just
>> checked and here it *still* shows the "available soon" messages and
>> points
>> to ch24 for the (non HD) version.
>>
> There is currently no live stream of BBC 4 HD on PSB 3 (or any other mux)
>
> All that exists (since June 29th) is a place holder on PSB3 on LCN 106,
> linked to MHEG caption stating 'available soon'
> and advising punters to go away and continue to use the SD version on
> LCN 9 (LCN 24 in Scotland)
>
> PSB 3 is carried by every DTT transmitter in the UK. (1154 sites)

It seems a lost opportunity to rejig Com4, com5 and Com6 to become HD
and a SFN for the whole country as that could have freed up some space
for Com7 and Com8 to have moved down in frequency.

I'm not aware of any reqgional variations on coms 4 to 6.... It could
have also provided an opportunity for the freeview lite TXes to start
broadcasting Com4 to com6 and be a carrot to nudge people to upgrade
from SD to HD to get the extra channels.

Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to HD and
therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and Ch6 in both SD
and HD. This would have freed up capacity for new channels to launch.
Obviosuly the regional variations make SFNing PSB1 to PSB3 more of a
challenge......

On 06/07/2022 10:54, SH wrote:
> On 06/07/2022 10:47, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 05/07/2022 09:56, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>>> In article <ta0sr0$3ln72$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all*
>>>> transmitters,
>>>> even Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.
>>> May depend on your unstated definitions of "all" and "available". I
>>> just
>>> checked and here it *still* shows the "available soon" messages and
>>> points
>>> to ch24 for the (non HD) version.
>>>
>> There is currently no live stream of BBC 4 HD on PSB 3 (or any other
>> mux)
>>
>> All that exists (since June 29th) is a place holder on PSB3 on LCN
>> 106, linked to MHEG caption stating 'available soon'
>> and advising punters to go away and continue to use the SD version on
>> LCN 9 (LCN 24 in Scotland)
>>
>> PSB 3 is carried by every DTT transmitter in the UK. (1154 sites)
>
> It seems a lost opportunity to rejig Com4, com5 and Com6 to become HD
> and a SFN for the whole country as that could have freed up some space
> for Com7 and Com8 to have moved down in frequency.

You could of course turn COM 4/5/6 into national SFNs, but in order to
that you end up increasing the guard interval, and in turn reducing the
payload, and so in turn the number of services that can be carried, so
you don't end up any better off.

> I'm not aware of any reqgional variations on coms 4 to 6.... It could
> have also provided an opportunity for the freeview lite TXes to start
> broadcasting Com4 to com6 and be a carrot to nudge people to upgrade
> from SD to HD to get the extra channels.
No one is going to equip over 1000 transmitter sites with three more muxes

"Jim Lesurf" <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5a032827danoise@audiomisc.co.uk...
> In article <ta0sr0$3ln72$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Now that BBC Four HD is on PSB3, it is available on *all* transmitters,
>> even Freeview Lite which has PSB1,2,3 but not COM4,5,6.
>
> May depend on your unstated definitions of "all" and "available". I just
> checked and here it *still* shows the "available soon" messages and points
> to ch24 for the (non HD) version.
>
> Maybe your "all" means "in England"?

Apologies. After I posted I realised that my use of "all" and "available"
was ambiguous. I meant that the channels are now *potentially* available (ie
present on the TV's list of channels after a re-scan) on all transmitters
including Lite ones, whereas previously they were only available on most of
the main transmitters that transmitted COM7. But I realise that at the
moment, there are no data streams for BBC Four HD and CBeebies HD, other
than the "available soon" messages.

I was taking issue with the "what about Freeview Lite" statement. Or are the
channels not even *listed* on PSB3 for Freeview Lite transmitters for
Scotland?

> Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to
> HD and therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and
> Ch6 in both SD and HD.

And immediately obsoleting probably millions of non-HD TVs, some sold only a
few years ago, including two of mine.

Angus

In article <memo.20220706141409.15844B@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>,
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <angus@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to
> > HD and therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and
> > Ch6 in both SD and HD.

> And immediately obsoleting probably millions of non-HD TVs, some
> sold only a few years ago, including two of mine.

Define "a few years ago".

If you've purchased a tv in the last 10 or 12 years and purchased one
without T2 then that was more than a bit daft. If it's older than
that, you've had your value out of it.

Bob.

On 06/07/2022 14:13, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
>> Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to
>> HD and therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and
>> Ch6 in both SD and HD.
>
> And immediately obsoleting probably millions of non-HD TVs, some sold only a
> few years ago, including two of mine.
>
> Angus
>
But why did you buy soon to be obsolete tellys? I was advising customers
to buy only HD equipment donkey's years ago.

Bill

> But why did you buy soon to be obsolete tellys? I was advising
> customers to buy only HD equipment donkey's years ago.

Not my main TV, but I've only watched Sky HD for 20 years so don't have any
interest in Freeview.

HD has little value on smaller screens, which I guess is why it was excluded.

Angus

On 06/07/2022 15:38, williamwright wrote:
> On 06/07/2022 14:13, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
>>> Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to
>>> HD and therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and
>>> Ch6 in both SD and HD.
>>
>> And immediately obsoleting probably millions of non-HD TVs, some sold
>> only a
>> few years ago, including two of mine.
>>
>> Angus
>>
> But why did you buy soon to be obsolete tellys? I was advising customers
> to buy only HD equipment donkey's years ago.
>
> Bill

quite.....

I bought a Panasonic TV before 2012 that had both Freeview HD AND
Freesat HD.

Why do I know I bought it before 2012? I moved to my current address in
January 2012 and the aforesaid TV moved with me from my previous address.

I've since bought two more TV's both with Freesat HD and Freeview HD
(and I still use the one from previous address) along with several PCIe
twin tuner cards taht do both Freeview HD and Freesat HD.

"Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd" <angus@magsys.co.uk> wrote in
message news:memo.20220706141409.15844B@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk...
>> Another opportunity was lost in not converting PSB1 and PSB2 to
>> HD and therefor remove simulcasting of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Ch4 and
>> Ch6 in both SD and HD.
>
> And immediately obsoleting probably millions of non-HD TVs, some sold only
> a
> few years ago, including two of mine.

SD (well, MPEG) is a lot quicker to decode, so it means that you can shuttle
through a recording at many times normal speed to find a particular place,
without the picture jerking, whereas HD (well, H264) is a lot more complex
to decode so you get jerking pictures and a lot of start/stop lag. Even
sub-SD channels on PSB3 or COM7 were jerky when shuttled, so it's not due to
the increased resolution and therefore number of pixels of HD.

My impression is that HD is less tolerant of glitches in broadcasting. I get
a lot more glitches on BBC1 One HD than I do on BBC1 SD, for the same
transmission medium (eg satellite). For terrestrial, you could blame it on
different propagation characteristics of the frequencies used for PSB1 and
PSB3, but for satellite I doubt whether there is much different between one
mux and another. And anyway, for me, PSB1 is slightly weaker and poorer
quality than PSB3, judging by the stats reported on my TV.

> In article <ji83hoFpms8U1@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > It should have shut down without the transport stream being
> > present, as it's an SFN transmitter

Just a quick check before I switch off C55 in the Triax TMB2000 and
surprisingly, according to my spectrum analyser C55 carrier is still
there over a month after the mux closed. Of course I cannot be
certain it is still the Sutton Coldfield that is putting the signal
there but it is the same amplitude as before and there's nothing else
continuous around it until you get down to C48.

I would have expected it to be shut down PDQ to save power and to
comply with license restrictions. Most odd to me.

Bob.

On 06/08/2022 15:35, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <ji83hoFpms8U1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> It should have shut down without the transport stream being
>>> present, as it's an SFN transmitter
>
> Just a quick check before I switch off C55 in the Triax TMB2000 and
> surprisingly, according to my spectrum analyser C55 carrier is still
> there over a month after the mux closed. Of course I cannot be
> certain it is still the Sutton Coldfield that is putting the signal
> there but it is the same amplitude as before and there's nothing else
> continuous around it until you get down to C48.
>
> I would have expected it to be shut down PDQ to save power and to
> comply with license restrictions. Most odd to me.
>
> Bob.
>

were you measuring for C55 before or after the TMB2000?