Apologies for the OT post but if, like me, you think disposable
barbecues are environmental disasters waiting to happen, you may want to
sign this:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618664

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 15/08/2022 12:40, Java Jive wrote:
> Apologies for the OT post but if, like me, you think disposable
> barbecues are environmental disasters waiting to happen, you may want to
> sign this:
>
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618664

Signed!
(I think your words "waiting to happen" are superfluous from what's been
reported on the TV news)

--

Jeff

Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point misuse
them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and safer.
Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:tddbb3$3k4cd$1@dont-email.me...
> Apologies for the OT post but if, like me, you think disposable barbecues
> are environmental disasters waiting to happen, you may want to sign this:
>
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618664
>
> --
>
> Fake news kills!
>
> I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
> www.macfh.co.uk

"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tdfkci$pm8$1@dont-email.me...
> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
> misuse them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them
> correctly. Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective
> and safer.
> Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....

I agree, Brian. In an ideal world we should be selling disposable barbecues
freely, but policing the use of them better. Restricting the sale affects
responsible users just as much as idiots who accidentally *or deliberately*
cause fires with them, or who bury a used barbecue in the sand on a beach to
"dispose" of it, and then a child comes along, digs in the sand and gets
badly burned. On a beach, you've got a ready-made supply of water (the sea),
so a few bucketfuls of sea water will cool it down - or else drag it to the
sea. And then take the cooled barbecue away with you.

If I was going to have any sort of fire (barbecue, bonfire) outside at the
moment, I'd have several buckets of water alongside, so I could soak any
stray embers before they have chance to start a bigger fire. And maybe a
hosepipe at the ready as well (hosepipe laws be buggered: preventing a fire
is even more important!). But really I'd play it safe and not have a
bonfire/barbecue in the first place at the moment.

As for those guys who were seen *deliberately* throwing a barbecue into
woodland... That needs to be punished very severely. We've all seen on the
news the results of wildfires - while people may not care about fields of
crops being burned (though they *should* do), once the fire burns people's
houses, that's much more serious.

People really don't seem to think any more about the consequences of their
actions. There have been numerous deaths or serious injuries from people
jumping into lakes, maybe off cliffs, to cool down in the hot weather. But
that doesn't seem to stop more people doing it - maybe they think that
*they* will be invincible, unlike the people who have already died. The same
applies to wildfires - maybe people think that *their* barbie or bonfire
won't start a fire, unlike all the previous fires.

On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point misuse
> them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and safer.
> Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....

And allow people to send up those hot air beacons to spread fire far and
wide.

The potable barbecues are possibly safer than what a lot of people seem
to do when away from home. Recently I've seen the remnants of fires
made on the ground in tinder dry grass car parks.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jm16avFangrU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
>> misuse
>> them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
>> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and
>> safer.
>> Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....
>
> And allow people to send up those hot air beacons to spread fire far and
> wide.
>
> The potable barbecues are possibly safer than what a lot of people seem to
> do when away from home. Recently I've seen the remnants of fires made on
> the ground in tinder dry grass car parks.

It needs proper Boy Sprout training: if you are going to build a fire
outdoors, surround it with a ring of stones to help prevent the embers from
igniting the surrounding grass etc. Have some water and or earth handy in
case anything ignites. And choose your location very carefully.

On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and safer.

The problem is that the idiots will take the barbecue home but dispose
of the embers irresponsibly. You can also do silly things with
non-disposable ones, like my neighbour who sprays them with, I think,
diesel fuel to get them started (fortunately they seem to have got the
message about this not being the right weather for barbecues).

Whilst is is, unfortunately the case, that without legislation, people
will sell products with the expectation that they will be used in
illegal or irresponsible ways, I feel uncomfortable about banning the
sale of any product that has a legitimate use.

In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that would
allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a government ban
if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the creation of
statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes of product.
I'm not sure that an Act giving such wide powers would be desirable.

On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point misuse
> them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and safer.

I agree it shows stupidity but what about the various organisations that
build picnic sites with tables and benches. They might have a location
for a barbeque included but do they always include some way of disposing
of the used barbeque? They often do not provide even adequate provision
for disposing of rubbish.

On 16/08/2022 10:27, NY wrote:
>
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:tdfkci$pm8$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
>> misuse them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them
>> correctly. [snip]
>
> I agree, Brian. In an ideal world we should be selling disposable
> barbecues freely, but policing the use of them better.

But, as we see every day, we don't live in an ideal world, and what's
left of the 'natural' world, already impoverished in ecological terms,
is rapidly being lost. There are now nearly 8bn people in the world,
and this country's population is higher than it's ever been before, and
no-one seems to want to pay for the constant presence of environmental
police to make all those people behave properly, so, if we are going to
be able to save anything worth saving, strong laws are needed.

There are precedents, ring pulls on cans, that used to get left in
fields where cattle would be injured by swallowing them, were replaced
by the modern lever system which, theoretically at least, shouldn't
leave any loose bits beside the can itself. Of course, the slobs just
through those away still, as I see examples of every day in my walks,
but at least they are less damaging to farm and wild life.

And plastic bags now have a surcharge in an attempt to ensure that fewer
of them end up in the environment, but I see those every day as well,
and drink bottles, sandwich wrappings, and all the other crap that
people throw out of their car windows.

Want to be disgusted? Listen to this:

Costing the Earth - Litter
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0742d31

And then please sign this petition. There isn't enough space in the
world for 8bn people disposing anything at all, let something as
ill-conceived as disposable BBQs.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 16/08/2022 10:32, NY wrote:
>
> "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jm16avFangrU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>
>>> Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....
>>
>> And allow people to send up those hot air beacons to spread fire far
>> and wide.

Chinese lanterns, I confess that I and my stepfather used to do that :-(
However, we usually did it around bonfire time, and the world is
usually wetter then, but even so, barns full of straw? I was too young
at the time to realise the dangers, but I've occasionally wondered since
how many things we set on fire.

>> The potable barbecues are possibly safer than what a lot of people
>> seem to do when away from home.  Recently I've seen the remnants of
>> fires made on the ground in tinder dry grass car parks.
>
> It needs proper Boy Sprout training: if you are going to build a fire
> outdoors, surround it with a ring of stones to help prevent the embers
> from igniting the surrounding grass etc.

Some rock types can contain sufficient moisture in them to explode if
you do this, so maybe not.

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+stones+explode+if+you+heat+them+in+a+fire

> Have some water and or earth
> handy in case anything ignites. And choose your location very carefully.

Or, in weather such as we've had recently, just don't do it.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 16/08/2022 11:59, David Woolley wrote:
>
> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and
>> safer.
>
> The problem is that the idiots will take the barbecue home but dispose
> of the embers irresponsibly.  You can also do silly things with
> non-disposable ones, like my neighbour who sprays them with, I think,
> diesel fuel to get them started (fortunately they seem to have got the
> message about this not being the right weather for barbecues).
>
> Whilst is is, unfortunately the case, that without legislation, people
> will sell products with the expectation that they will be used in
> illegal or irresponsible ways, I feel uncomfortable about banning the
> sale of any product that has a legitimate use.

We already do it with knives and guns.

> In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that would
> allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a government ban
> if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the creation of
> statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes of product.
> I'm not sure that an Act giving such wide powers would be desirable.

As above, there are already relevant classes of product subject to such
bans, so I can't really see that there would be any judicial difficulty.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 16/08/2022 12:42, MB wrote:
>
> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
>> misuse
>> them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
>> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and
>> safer.
>
> I agree it shows stupidity but what about the various organisations that
> build picnic sites with tables and benches.  They might have a location
> for a barbeque included but do they always include some way of disposing
> of the used barbeque? They often do not provide even adequate provision
> for disposing of rubbish.

Yes, many lay-bys in Scotland used to have have plastic bins, and some
in scenic places still do, but do we really want people to set them on
fire by chucking a BBQ in it? Of course the bins say not to do this,
but how to dispose of them otherwise, preferably in a safer manner?

And that's not even allowing for the bored teenagers in local
playgrounds who set bins on fire deliberately, even piling the wood
chippings from the ground into them to make the fire worse.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 14:18:13 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 16/08/2022 10:27, NY wrote:
>>
>> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:tdfkci$pm8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
>>> misuse them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them
>>> correctly. [snip]
>>
>> I agree, Brian. In an ideal world we should be selling disposable
>> barbecues freely, but policing the use of them better.
>
>But, as we see every day, we don't live in an ideal world, and what's
>left of the 'natural' world, already impoverished in ecological terms,
>is rapidly being lost. There are now nearly 8bn people in the world,
>and this country's population is higher than it's ever been before, and
>no-one seems to want to pay for the constant presence of environmental
>police to make all those people behave properly, so, if we are going to
>be able to save anything worth saving, strong laws are needed.
>
>There are precedents, ring pulls on cans, that used to get left in
>fields where cattle would be injured by swallowing them, were replaced
>by the modern lever system which, theoretically at least, shouldn't
>leave any loose bits beside the can itself. Of course, the slobs just
>through those away still, as I see examples of every day in my walks,
>but at least they are less damaging to farm and wild life.
>
>And plastic bags now have a surcharge in an attempt to ensure that fewer
>of them end up in the environment, but I see those every day as well,
>and drink bottles, sandwich wrappings, and all the other crap that
>people throw out of their car windows.
>
>Want to be disgusted? Listen to this:
>
>Costing the Earth - Litter
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0742d31
>
>And then please sign this petition. There isn't enough space in the
>world for 8bn people disposing anything at all, let something as
>ill-conceived as disposable BBQs.

The worst examples of careless waste must be open air rock festivals.
I've never had the tiniest inclination to go to one, but I've seen the
aftermath pictures on newspapers' websites, and it's absolutely
appalling how much potentially useful camping gear is discarded,
presumably because the people who brought it can't be arsed to take it
home and clean it.

Rod.

On 16/08/2022 14:33, Java Jive wrote:
> We already do it with knives and guns.
>
>> In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that
>> would allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a
>> government ban if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the
>> creation of statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes
>> of product. I'm not sure that an Act giving such wide powers would be
>> desirable.
>
> As above, there are already relevant classes of product subject to such
> bans, so I can't really see that there would be any judicial difficulty.

For knives and guns, it is achieved by primary legislation, which
normally takes a long time to bring into force, as it requires
parliament to be in session, and to go through Commons, Lords and
committee stages, and get Royal assent. In exceptional circumstances,
very small pieces of primary legislation can be put through in a day or
two, but they have to be exceedingly urgent and non-controversial, and
having lots of pieces of primary legislation isn't really desirable.

In the case of knives, flick knives are covered directly by primary
legislation, The Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959. Other types
of knives are covered, indirectly, by the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
Section 141(2) allows the creation of secondary legislation, and the
main list is in SI 1988/2019.

Secondary legislation can be put through parliament on the nod, or even
on the basis that, if parliament doesn't request a vote, it can go
through automatically. That means that, once enabled by primary
legislation the minister, usually acting for the civil service, can make
legislation quickly.

There isn't, I believe, primary legislation that would allow the
government to create secondary legislation to ban disposable barbecues,
so the full process for creating primary legislation would be needed.

On 16/08/2022 14:30, Java Jive wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 10:32, NY wrote:
>>
>> "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:jm16avFangrU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mind you, we still do allow people to buy fireworks....
>>>
>>> And allow people to send up those hot air beacons to spread fire far
>>> and wide.
>
> Chinese lanterns, I confess that I and my stepfather used to do that :-(
>  However, we usually did it around bonfire time, and the world is
> usually wetter then, but even so, barns full of straw?  I was too young
> at the time to realise the dangers, but I've occasionally wondered since
> how many things we set on fire.

The other problem with them is they often had a wire or plastic ring to
hold the bag open. These often ended up in fields with grazing livestock.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 16/08/2022 12:42, MB wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Its not the units its the idiots who use them and more to the point
>> misuse
>> them or use them in silly places and do not dispose of them correctly.
>> Surely a portable reusable one would be far more cost effective and
>> safer.
>
> I agree it shows stupidity but what about the various organisations that
> build picnic sites with tables and benches.  They might have a location
> for a barbeque included but do they always include some way of disposing
> of the used barbeque? They often do not provide even adequate provision
> for disposing of rubbish.
>

My local council built public barbecue facilities at a beach car park
but had to close it down earlier this year due to (unspecified) abuse.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 16/08/2022 14:43, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> The worst examples of careless waste must be open air rock festivals.
> I've never had the tiniest inclination to go to one, but I've seen the
> aftermath pictures on newspapers' websites, and it's absolutely
> appalling how much potentially useful camping gear is discarded,
> presumably because the people who brought it can't be arsed to take it
> home and clean it.

Glastonbury usually gets false accusations after the festival but has a
very well organised system to clear the site - they have to clear it
completely because it is agricultural land and any litter could be fatal
to farm animals.

On 16/08/2022 15:50, David Woolley wrote:
> There isn't, I believe, primary legislation that would allow the
> government to create secondary legislation to ban disposable barbecues,
> so the full process for creating primary legislation would be needed.

It would be difficult to define.

Why not have a law where an area could be quickly declared a fire risk
and anyone in the area having any form of fire prosecuted - barbeque,
open fire, cigarette .......

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 18:16:18 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 16/08/2022 14:43, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> The worst examples of careless waste must be open air rock festivals.
>> I've never had the tiniest inclination to go to one, but I've seen the
>> aftermath pictures on newspapers' websites, and it's absolutely
>> appalling how much potentially useful camping gear is discarded,
>> presumably because the people who brought it can't be arsed to take it
>> home and clean it.
>
>
>Glastonbury usually gets false accusations after the festival but has a
>very well organised system to clear the site - they have to clear it
>completely because it is agricultural land and any litter could be fatal
>to farm animals.

I'm sure they do, but it shouldn't be needed. How difficult is it to
put rubbish in a bin instead of leaving it on the grass, and what's
wrong with people that makes them abandon perfectly good tents,
camping chairs etc instead of taking them home to use again?

Rod.

On 16/08/2022 11:59, David Woolley wrote:

> In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that would
> allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a government ban
> if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the creation of
> statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes of product.

It is also quite difficult to frame a Statutory Instrument that is
immune from circumventions.

For instance, many years ago I ordered some things by mail order and
because the total order value was above a threshold I also got what was
advertised as a "mystery gift", which in my case was a disposable
barbecue. Even if there had been legislation at the time banning the
sale of disposable barbecues, this gift would still have been a legal
product.

Jim

On 16/08/2022 21:01, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 11:59, David Woolley wrote:
>
>> In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that would
>> allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a government ban
>> if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the creation of
>> statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes of product.
>
> It is also quite difficult to frame a Statutory Instrument that is
> immune from circumventions.
>
> For instance, many years ago I ordered some things by mail order and
> because the total order value was above a threshold I also got what was
> advertised as a "mystery gift", which in my case was a disposable
> barbecue. Even if there had been legislation at the time banning the
> sale of disposable barbecues, this gift would still have been a legal
> product.

The usual wording to avoid this is "sale or supply".

--

Jeff

On 16/08/2022 18:20, MB wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 15:50, David Woolley wrote:
>> There isn't, I believe, primary legislation that would allow the
>> government to create secondary legislation to ban disposable barbecues,
>> so the full process for creating primary legislation would be needed.
>
> It would be difficult to define.
>
> Why not have a law where an area could be quickly declared a fire risk
> and anyone in the area having any form of fire prosecuted - barbeque,
> open fire, cigarette .......

That would be good seeing the number of smokers who think it acceptable
to throw their still alight dog-ends from car windows.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 16/08/2022 14:43, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 14:18:13 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:

>> Costing the Earth - Litter
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0742d31
>>
>> And then please sign this petition. There isn't enough space in the
>> world for 8bn people disposing anything at all, let something as
>> ill-conceived as disposable BBQs.
>
> The worst examples of careless waste must be open air rock festivals.
> I've never had the tiniest inclination to go to one, but I've seen the
> aftermath pictures on newspapers' websites, and it's absolutely
> appalling how much potentially useful camping gear is discarded,
> presumably because the people who brought it can't be arsed to take it
> home and clean it.

Enables indigent stragglers to earn a few bob clearing it up.

--
Max Demian

On 16/08/2022 18:43, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> I'm sure they do, but it shouldn't be needed. How difficult is it to
> put rubbish in a bin instead of leaving it on the grass, and what's
> wrong with people that makes them abandon perfectly good tents,
> camping chairs etc instead of taking them home to use again?

Unfortunately many locations either don't have bins or never seem to
empty them.

People tend to use cheap tents at music festivals because they are left
unattended most of the time which would be risky if they were expensive
ones.

The organisers collect up the tents afterwards, some are given to
charities to be re-used and the cheaper ones re-cycled for the materials.

On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 1:32:00 AM UTC+5:30, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 11:59, David Woolley wrote:
> > In practice, I'm not sure what enabling legislation there is that would
> > allow the sale to be banned. You are only going to get a government ban
> > if there is an Act of Parliament that authorises the creation of
> > statutory instruments to ban the sale of relevant classes of product.
> It is also quite difficult to frame a Statutory Instrument that is
> immune from circumventions.
>
> For instance, many years ago I ordered some things by mail order and
> because the total order value was above a threshold I also got what was
> advertised as a "mystery gift", which in my case was a disposable
> barbecue. Even if there had been legislation at the time banning the
> sale of disposable barbecues, this gift would still have been a legal
> product.
>
> Jim
yes, have a look at this https://tinytask.pro/