Rather incredible:

One of the most, if not ***the*** most, developed economies in the world
with a de facto anti public transport policy is offering lower fares.

Indeed, the busses just north of New York City were completely free over
the summer.

Here? They're talking about hiking fares.

https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2022/news20220811

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-to-provide-50-discount-on-all-fares-using-clipper-for-september-anniversary/

I did not exactly mean the most developed economy in the world, for
clarification, but rather a developed economy with one of the most
anti-public transport policies.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 19:23:27 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Rather incredible:
>
>One of the most, if not ***the*** most, developed economies in the world
>with a de facto anti public transport policy is offering lower fares.
>
>Indeed, the busses just north of New York City were completely free over
>the summer.
>
>Here? They're talking about hiking fares.
>
>https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2022/news20220811
>
>https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-to-provide-50-discount-on-all-fares-using-clipper-for-september-anniversary/

Kansas City buses and light rail are free.

On 21/08/2022 19:27, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 19:23:27 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Rather incredible:
>>
>> One of the most, if not ***the*** most, developed economies in the world
>> with a de facto anti public transport policy is offering lower fares.
>>
>> Indeed, the busses just north of New York City were completely free over
>> the summer.
>>
>> Here? They're talking about hiking fares.
>>
>> https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2022/news20220811
>>
>> https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-to-provide-50-discount-on-all-fares-using-clipper-for-september-anniversary/
>
> Kansas City buses and light rail are free.

See?

On 21/08/2022 19:23, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Rather incredible:
>
> One of the most, if not ***the*** most, developed economies in the world
> with a de facto anti public transport policy is offering lower fares.
>
> Indeed, the busses just north of New York City were completely free over
> the summer.
>
> Here? They're talking about hiking fares.
>
> https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2022/news20220811
>
> https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-to-provide-50-discount-on-all-fares-using-clipper-for-september-anniversary/

California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.

On 21/08/2022 19:30, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 21/08/2022 19:27, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

>> Kansas City buses and light rail are free.
>
> See?

Aren't USians somewhat to the left of Stalin on public transit? It's a
subsdised, state-run service for the public good. Not like Europe, where
the state is too busy checking school kids for guns to run the trains
and buses.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:

> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.

Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
confusion elsewhere?

--
Arthur Figgis

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:

>On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>
>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>
>Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>confusion elsewhere?

Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans debates that are tearing the Left apart.

On 21/08/2022 23:26, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>
>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>
>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>> confusion elsewhere?
>
> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans debates that are tearing the Left apart.

And it's bringing together the extreme right who are anti woke.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 21/08/2022 23:26, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>
>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>
>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>
>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans debates
>> that are tearing the Left apart.
>
> And it's bringing together the extreme right who are anti woke.
>

Yes. Woke Watch was one of the early themes of GB News, and the Telegraph
often rants about it. Perhaps the Mail, too, but I try to avoid it.

On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>
>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>
>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>> confusion elsewhere?
>
> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
> debates that are tearing the Left apart.

Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
men though).

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
>> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>
>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>
>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>
>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
>> debates that are tearing the Left apart.
>
> Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
> commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
> addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
> allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
> men though).
>

It's the Left that's being torn apart by definitions of 'women'. For
example, Potterworld has pretty much cancelled J K Rowling for not being
pro-Trans, and look how Suzanne Moore was treated at the Guardian:

<https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-trans-women-gender-b2048408.html>

<https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-moore-leaves-guardian-months-after-staff-send-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/>

Academia is similarly affected:
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
>>> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>>
>>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
>>> debates that are tearing the Left apart.
>>
>> Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
>> commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
>> addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
>> allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
>> men though).
>>
>
> It's the Left that's being torn apart by definitions of 'women'. For
> example, Potterworld has pretty much cancelled J K Rowling for not being
> pro-Trans, and look how Suzanne Moore was treated at the Guardian:
>
> <https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-trans-women-gender-b2048408.html>
>
> <https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-moore-leaves-guardian-months-after-staff-send-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/>
>
> Academia is similarly affected:
> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row>

And another one today:

Cathy Boardman: Lecturer in trans row sues over ‘sacking’

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fc3b090c-2175-11ed-bb7e-0eb11fc7ccd4?shareToken=a7d21a8695bb2de2298f1d2956a8f3e6>

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 08:23:29 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
>>> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>>
>>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
>>> debates that are tearing the Left apart.
>>
>> Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
>> commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
>> addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
>> allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
>> men though).
>>
>
>It's the Left that's being torn apart by definitions of 'women'. For
>example, Potterworld has pretty much cancelled J K Rowling for not being
>pro-Trans, and look how Suzanne Moore was treated at the Guardian:
>
><https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-trans-women-gender-b2048408.html>
>
><https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-moore-leaves-guardian-months-after-staff-send-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/>
>
>Academia is similarly affected:
><https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row>
>

It's basically trans women v radical feminists, the latter of which
reserve the exclusive right to be considered women and don't want men,
who many consider dangerous, coming into female spaces.
This is one of those arguments where I really can see both sides. It's
tricky and there's a great deal of intransigence all round.
Keep well clear!

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 08:23:29 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
>>>> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
>>>> debates that are tearing the Left apart.
>>>
>>> Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
>>> commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
>>> addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
>>> allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
>>> men though).
>>>
>>
>> It's the Left that's being torn apart by definitions of 'women'. For
>> example, Potterworld has pretty much cancelled J K Rowling for not being
>> pro-Trans, and look how Suzanne Moore was treated at the Guardian:
>>
>> <https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-trans-women-gender-b2048408.html>
>>
>> <https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-moore-leaves-guardian-months-after-staff-send-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/>
>>
>> Academia is similarly affected:
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row>
>>
>
> It's basically trans women v radical feminists, the latter of which
> reserve the exclusive right to be considered women and don't want men,
> who many consider dangerous, coming into female spaces.
> This is one of those arguments where I really can see both sides. It's
> tricky and there's a great deal of intransigence all round.
> Keep well clear!
>

Most of the Left back the Trans women, though I'm not sure who left-wing
femininists back. The Right almost universally back the feminists. So the
arguments are purely on the Left.

On 22/08/2022 10:30, Ken wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 08:23:29 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-08-21 22:26:34 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
>>>> <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans
>>>> debates that are tearing the Left apart.
>>>
>>> Are they? All the "debate" I have noticed seems to come from
>>> commentators on the right getting upset about people wishing to be
>>> addressed by pronouns of their chosing, and about trans women being
>>> allowed to use women's bathrooms (they seem less concerned about trans
>>> men though).
>>>
>>
>> It's the Left that's being torn apart by definitions of 'women'. For
>> example, Potterworld has pretty much cancelled J K Rowling for not being
>> pro-Trans, and look how Suzanne Moore was treated at the Guardian:
>>
>> <https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-trans-women-gender-b2048408.html>
>>
>> <https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-moore-leaves-guardian-months-after-staff-send-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/>
>>
>> Academia is similarly affected:
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row>
>>
>
> It's basically trans women v radical feminists, the latter of which
> reserve the exclusive right to be considered women and don't want men,
> who many consider dangerous, coming into female spaces.
> This is one of those arguments where I really can see both sides. It's
> tricky and there's a great deal of intransigence all round.
> Keep well clear!

That's an excellent summary.

On 21/08/2022 23:26, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>
>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>
>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>> confusion elsewhere?
>
> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans debates that are tearing the Left apart.

In the UK a lot of it seems to be cultural appropriation (somewhat
ironically), and trying to cut-and-paste issues which don't really exist
here.

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/08/2022 23:26, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 23:15:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/08/2022 19:41, Certes wrote:
>>>
>>>> California is increasingly pro public transport, environmentally
>>>> friendly and generally "woke", at least by U.S. standards.
>>>
>>> Isn't "woke" a quite specifically US thing, which is why it causes
>>> confusion elsewhere?
>>
>> Not at all. In the UK, it typically gets manifested in the Trans debates
>> that are tearing the Left apart.
>
> In the UK a lot of it seems to be cultural appropriation (somewhat
> ironically), and trying to cut-and-paste issues which don't really exist
> here.
>

Yes, on the Black Lives Matter issue.