A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s rail
passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.

A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus passengers
in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will be
called Transport UK Group Limited.

Led by Managing Director Dominic Booth, who has decades of experience
running public transport services in the UK, this deal has been widely
welcomed by industry partners and experts. Completion of the buyout deal is
subject to formal approval from partners including the Department for
Transport, Transport for London and Merseytravel as well as regulatory
consent from the Office for Rail and Road.

After 20 years in the UK Nederlandse Spoorwegen has decided to withdraw
from the UK market to focus on domestic service provision within, and
international railway services to and from, the Netherlands.

Mr Booth said today:

“I’ve been a railwayman all my life. I am thrilled to have the opportunity
to return key public transport services back into UK ownership at a time
when some of our competitors look destined for overseas ownership. We
expect the business to transfer by the end of the year, following which we
will focus all our energies and expertise on continuing to deliver the best
possible services for our passengers, investing in our train and bus
routes, and helping to develop a future ready, low emission UK transport
network.

“Our wish to buy the company from Nederlandse Spoorwegen demonstrates our
confidence in the existing Abellio UK team, both in our Head Office and on
the ground. It’s the dedication of our 15,000 employees, together with a
continuity of management, that will ensure our new company is a great
success.

“We are grateful for the support and backing that we have received from
Nederlandse Spoorwegen to date, and we look forward to continuing to work
closely with them to manage this process to a successful conclusion.”

Bert Groenewegen, acting CEO of Nederlandse Spoorwegen, which will continue
to support the new company during a transition period, said today:

“After a successful 20 years in the UK passenger transport market, NS is
proud to support this natural next step for Abellio UK as it transitions
with our blessing into a new management owned passenger transport group.”

Abellio UK is responsible for running four of the UK’s rail passenger
services – East Midlands, West Midlands, Greater Anglia and Merseyrail – as
well as being the fastest growing operator in the London bus network. The
emergence of a new UK transport group reflects the management team’s
confidence in the long-term prospects for the UK transport sector and its
support for the Williams-Shapps review for Great British Railways which it
has been helping to shape and implement.

<https://railuk.com/rail-news/key-rail-and-bus-services-to-return-to-uk-ownership/>

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s rail
>passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>
>A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus passengers
>in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will be
>called Transport UK Group Limited.

Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments to run
previously state run organisations.

In message <eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s rail
>>passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>
>>A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus passengers
>>in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will be
>>called Transport UK Group Limited.
>
>Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments

I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies

>to run previously state run organisations.

It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.

The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
better.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s rail
>>>passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>>
>>>A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus passengers
>>>in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will be
>>>called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>
>>Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>
>I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>
>>to run previously state run organisations.
>
>It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>
>The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>better.

When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to reduce the fleet, but still run the full
service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.

In message <9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>, at 15:02:46 on
Sun, 28 Aug 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>>Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the
>>>>country’s rail
>>>>passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>>>
>>>>A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>>Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>>Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>>>passengers
>>>>in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will be
>>>>called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>>
>>>Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>>
>>I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>>
>>>to run previously state run organisations.
>>
>>It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>>
>>The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>>they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>>Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>>better.
>
>When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able
>to reduce the fleet, but still run the full service? This seemed
>improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.

Yes, that was the first bit of the iceberg to become visible.
--
Roland Perry

On 28 Aug 2022, Recliner wrote
(in article<9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>):

> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry<roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
> > In message<eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
> > Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
> > > On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> > > <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s
> > > > rail
> > > > passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
> > > >
> > > > A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
> > > > Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
> > > > Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
> > > > passengers
> > > > in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will
> > > > be
> > > > called Transport UK Group Limited.
> > >
> > > Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
> >
> > I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
> >
> > > to run previously state run organisations.
> >
> > It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
> >
> > The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
> > they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
> > Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
> > better.
>
> When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to
> reduce the fleet, but still run the full
> service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.

AIUI [from sources in NL], they compared Anglia diagrams / mileage /
maintenance etc with their own experience and thence [?mis?]-calculated their
fleet requirements. But I don’t know any details of how they got the calcs
wrong.

Elsewhere in the UK, however, I’m told they made some useful changes to
internal systems and processes – but I’m not clear if any of these were
imports across the North Sea or simply developed in-house given local impetus
to do so.There’s no doubt that the UK management teams – who will
apparently be the backbone of the new TUK group – includes some experienced
and capable people.

—
Ken
kwelsby [at] gmail.com

In message <0001HW.28BC98CB01BF75E470000C27038F@news.tweaknews.eu>, at
08:48:43 on Mon, 29 Aug 2022, Ken in Caen <kenw@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 28 Aug 2022, Recliner wrote
>(in article<9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry<roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > In message<eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>> > Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>> > > On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> > > <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the
>> > > >country’s
>> > > > rail
>> > > > passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of
>> > > >this year.
>> > > >
>> > > > A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>> > > > Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take
>> > > >over all
>> > > > Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>> > > > passengers
>> > > > in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new
>> > > >company will
>> > > > be
>> > > > called Transport UK Group Limited.
>> > >
>> > > Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>> >
>> > I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>> >
>> > > to run previously state run organisations.
>> >
>> > It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>> >
>> > The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>> > they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>> > Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>> > better.
>>
>> When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to
>> reduce the fleet, but still run the full
>> service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.
>
>AIUI [from sources in NL], they compared Anglia diagrams / mileage /
>maintenance etc with their own experience and thence [?mis?]-calculated their
>fleet requirements. But I don’t know any details of how they got the calcs
>wrong.

ICBW, but I think it may have been underestaimating the number of one of
their rather ancient fleets which were out-of-action for maintenance at
any one time.

>Elsewhere in the UK, however, I’m told they made some useful changes to
>internal systems and processes – but I’m not clear if any of these were
>imports across the North Sea or simply developed in-house given local impetus
>to do so.There’s no doubt that the UK management teams – who will
>apparently be the backbone of the new TUK group – includes some experienced
>and capable people.

One positive benefit has been interoperability of ITSO cards across
their more recent franchises (maybe not all, but at least some). That's
not something which I think Stagecoach cared about, and their cards
didn't even interoperate between rail and bus.
--
Roland Perry

Ken in Caen <kenw@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2022, Recliner wrote
> (in article<9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry<roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message<eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>>> Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s
>>>>> rail
>>>>> passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>>> Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>>> Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>>>> passengers
>>>>> in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will
>>>>> be
>>>>> called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>>>
>>>> Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>>>
>>> I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>>>
>>>> to run previously state run organisations.
>>>
>>> It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>>>
>>> The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>>> they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>>> Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>>> better.
>>
>> When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to
>> reduce the fleet, but still run the full
>> service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.
>
> AIUI [from sources in NL], they compared Anglia diagrams / mileage /
> maintenance etc with their own experience and thence [?mis?]-calculated their
> fleet requirements. But I don’t know any details of how they got the calcs
> wrong.
>
> Elsewhere in the UK, however, I’m told they made some useful changes to
> internal systems and processes – but I’m not clear if any of these were
> imports across the North Sea or simply developed in-house given local impetus
> to do so.There’s no doubt that the UK management teams – who will
> apparently be the backbone of the new TUK group – includes some experienced
> and capable people.
>

Yes, it's an MBO, so the management team won't change. I was wondering what
they will have to pay the Dutch to buy it? I gather it's enough that they
will need financial backers, but I'd have thought it would still be quite a
modest sum. There are no capital assets (unless it owns some buses), and
the new PSCs will operate with low margins.

In message <tei034$10evm$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:15:16 on Mon, 29 Aug
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Ken in Caen <kenw@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28 Aug 2022, Recliner wrote
>> (in article<9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry<roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message<eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>>>> Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s
>>>>>> rail
>>>>>> passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>>>> Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>>>> Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>> in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>>>>
>>>> I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>>>>
>>>>> to run previously state run organisations.
>>>>
>>>> It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>>>>
>>>> The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>>>> they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>>>> Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>>>> better.
>>>
>>> When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to
>>> reduce the fleet, but still run the full
>>> service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.
>>
>> AIUI [from sources in NL], they compared Anglia diagrams / mileage /
>> maintenance etc with their own experience and thence
>>[?mis?]-calculated their
>> fleet requirements. But I don’t know any details of how they got the calcs
>> wrong.
>>
>> Elsewhere in the UK, however, I’m told they made some useful changes to
>> internal systems and processes – but I’m not clear if any of these were
>> imports across the North Sea or simply developed in-house given local
>>impetus
>> to do so.There’s no doubt that the UK management teams – who will
>> apparently be the backbone of the new TUK group – includes some
>>experienced
>> and capable people.
>>
>
>Yes, it's an MBO, so the management team won't change. I was wondering what
>they will have to pay the Dutch to buy it? I gather it's enough that they
>will need financial backers, but I'd have thought it would still be quite a
>modest sum. There are no capital assets (unless it owns some buses),

Do they lease things like their ITSO ticketing barriers and back
offices?

>and the new PSCs will operate with low margins.

Sshh, don't tell the RMT, they still think the profit margins are
excessive.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:33:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <tei034$10evm$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:15:16 on Mon, 29 Aug
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Ken in Caen <kenw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 28 Aug 2022, Recliner wrote
>>> (in article<9atmgh58f2bodt75hin1j3aoqseue2fp8q@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 15:15:36 +0100, Roland Perry<roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message<eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>>>>> Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the country’s
>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>> passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>>>>> Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>>>>> Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>> in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company will
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>>>>>
>>>>>> to run previously state run organisations.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>>>>> they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>>>>> Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not
>>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> When they first took over Anglia, didn't they claim they would be able to
>>>> reduce the fleet, but still run the full
>>>> service? This seemed improbable, and I think they duly failed to do so.
>>>
>>> AIUI [from sources in NL], they compared Anglia diagrams / mileage /
>>> maintenance etc with their own experience and thence
>>>[?mis?]-calculated their
>>> fleet requirements. But I don’t know any details of how they got the calcs
>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> Elsewhere in the UK, however, I’m told they made some useful changes to
>>> internal systems and processes – but I’m not clear if any of these were
>>> imports across the North Sea or simply developed in-house given local
>>>impetus
>>> to do so.There’s no doubt that the UK management teams – who will
>>> apparently be the backbone of the new TUK group – includes some
>>>experienced
>>> and capable people.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, it's an MBO, so the management team won't change. I was wondering what
>>they will have to pay the Dutch to buy it? I gather it's enough that they
>>will need financial backers, but I'd have thought it would still be quite a
>>modest sum. There are no capital assets (unless it owns some buses),
>
>Do they lease things like their ITSO ticketing barriers and back
>offices?

Probably.

>
>>and the new PSCs will operate with low margins.
>
>Sshh, don't tell the RMT, they still think the profit margins are
>excessive.

On 27/08/2022 15:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
> Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the
>>> country’s rail
>>> passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this
>>> year.
>>>
>>> A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>> Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>> Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>> passengers
>>> in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company
>>> will be
>>> called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>
>> Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>
> I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>
>> to run previously state run organisations.
>
> It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>
> The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
> they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
> Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not better.

Certainly EMR's introduction of the Class 360 units on the Corby -
London service has not been an unqualified success.

Friends who use it regularly from Bedford tell of cancelled services,
four coach peak services where twelve coaches were promised etc etc.

The refurbishment to "Inter City" standards seems to have stalled at
exterior repainting into quite an attractive purple. But the interiors
apparently haven't been touched with the 3+2 seating in a shabby state.

To be fair to EMR, it may be that the DFT is refusing to allow the
upgrades. However, EMR hadn't even bothered to let the contracts for
refurbishment before the pandemic hit home. Had they done so the work
probably couldn't have been cancelled.

At least Bedford travellers have the option of Thameslink which some of
my friends now prefer. Those using Wellingborough station don't have
that option. And it seems that EMR are extremely loath to stop a long
distance service at Wellingborough to cover gaps due to cancelled
Connect services - phrases like "it's as if there are two TOCs who don't
talk to one another" have been mentioned when it reality of course there
is only one.

There is also a tremendous difference in fare levels to/from London at
Wellingborough compared to Bedford which is Thameslink priced. Such that
splitting tickets at Bedford or Luton Airport Parkway can save a great deal.

I think if EMR/Abellio were to hand back the keys there might be some
rejoicing!

In message <tenc5q$1pk1l$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:08 on Wed, 31 Aug
2022, Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> remarked:

>There is also a tremendous difference in fare levels to/from London at
>Wellingborough compared to Bedford which is Thameslink priced. Such
>that splitting tickets at Bedford or Luton Airport Parkway can save a
>great deal.

Back in the day by far the cheapest way to get to London was to buy a
return to the furthest north Travelcards were available at the time
[Kettering I think] and split.

Ticket office staff at Nottingham had apparently been briefed to refuse
to sell the combination, because it was "trying to beat the system".
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:12:08 +0100, Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/08/2022 15:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <eh4kgh9hjujg2c2qpcnno1d43u45hh9tei@4ax.com>, at 07:49:25 on
>> Sat, 27 Aug 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:27:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A new UK-run transport company is set to operate four of the
>>>> country’s rail
>>>> passenger services and over 50 London bus routes by the end of this
>>>> year.
>>>>
>>>> A management buyout from the state-owned rail company, Nederlandse
>>>> Spoorwegen will pave the way for a new UK-based company to take over all
>>>> Abellio UK’s existing services, serving millions of rail and bus
>>>> passengers
>>>> in London, Liverpool, the Midlands and East Anglia. The new company
>>>> will be
>>>> called Transport UK Group Limited.
>>>
>>> Privatisation was never meant for foreign governments
>>
>> I think you mean "[foreign] State owned companies
>>
>>> to run previously state run organisations.
>>
>> It's present in the water and electricity sectors too.
>>
>> The main problem with specifically Nederlandse Spoorwegen was the way
>> they arrived with bucket-loads of hubris saying "we'll show you ignorant
>> Brits how to run a railway properly", and everything got worse, not better.
>
>Certainly EMR's introduction of the Class 360 units on the Corby -
>London service has not been an unqualified success.
>
>Friends who use it regularly from Bedford tell of cancelled services,
>four coach peak services where twelve coaches were promised etc etc.
>
>The refurbishment to "Inter City" standards seems to have stalled at
>exterior repainting into quite an attractive purple. But the interiors
>apparently haven't been touched with the 3+2 seating in a shabby state.
>
>To be fair to EMR, it may be that the DFT is refusing to allow the
>upgrades. However, EMR hadn't even bothered to let the contracts for
>refurbishment before the pandemic hit home. Had they done so the work
>probably couldn't have been cancelled.
>
>At least Bedford travellers have the option of Thameslink which some of
>my friends now prefer. Those using Wellingborough station don't have
>that option. And it seems that EMR are extremely loath to stop a long
>distance service at Wellingborough to cover gaps due to cancelled
>Connect services - phrases like "it's as if there are two TOCs who don't
>talk to one another" have been mentioned when it reality of course there
>is only one.
>
>There is also a tremendous difference in fare levels to/from London at
>Wellingborough compared to Bedford which is Thameslink priced. Such that
>splitting tickets at Bedford or Luton Airport Parkway can save a great deal.
>
>I think if EMR/Abellio were to hand back the keys there might be some
>rejoicing!

Yes, this seems like another former Stagecoach TOC that has gone downhill since the change of franchise. The same is
true of SWR, and, particularly, the joint Virgin/Stagecoach West Coast, which has gone from well to very badly run. Only
VTEC/ LNER seems not to have got worse since Stagecoach's departure.

Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> wrote:

>
> Certainly EMR's introduction of the Class 360 units on the Corby -
> London service has not been an unqualified success.
>
> Friends who use it regularly from Bedford tell of cancelled services,
> four coach peak services where twelve coaches were promised etc etc.
>
> The refurbishment to "Inter City" standards seems to have stalled at
> exterior repainting into quite an attractive purple. But the interiors
> apparently haven't been touched with the 3+2 seating in a shabby state.
>
> To be fair to EMR, it may be that the DFT is refusing to allow the
> upgrades. However, EMR hadn't even bothered to let the contracts for
> refurbishment before the pandemic hit home. Had they done so the work
> probably couldn't have been cancelled.
>

When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.

Incidentally the 360/2s, ex-HConn, purchased by ROG for freight traffic,
have just been scrapped.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:27:46 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Certainly EMR's introduction of the Class 360 units on the Corby -
>> London service has not been an unqualified success.
>>
>> Friends who use it regularly from Bedford tell of cancelled services,
>> four coach peak services where twelve coaches were promised etc etc.
>>
>> The refurbishment to "Inter City" standards seems to have stalled at
>> exterior repainting into quite an attractive purple. But the interiors
>> apparently haven't been touched with the 3+2 seating in a shabby state.
>>
>> To be fair to EMR, it may be that the DFT is refusing to allow the
>> upgrades. However, EMR hadn't even bothered to let the contracts for
>> refurbishment before the pandemic hit home. Had they done so the work
>> probably couldn't have been cancelled.
>>
>
>When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.
>
>Incidentally the 360/2s, ex-HConn, purchased by ROG for freight traffic,
>have just been scrapped.

Yes, I saw that. I guess it was a small sub-fleet that had been stored for years, and not in great condition. There are
plenty of other EMUs coming off lease, and many might be in better condition.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:27:46 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Certainly EMR's introduction of the Class 360 units on the Corby -
>>> London service has not been an unqualified success.
>>>
>>> Friends who use it regularly from Bedford tell of cancelled services,
>>> four coach peak services where twelve coaches were promised etc etc.
>>>
>>> The refurbishment to "Inter City" standards seems to have stalled at
>>> exterior repainting into quite an attractive purple. But the interiors
>>> apparently haven't been touched with the 3+2 seating in a shabby state.
>>>
>>> To be fair to EMR, it may be that the DFT is refusing to allow the
>>> upgrades. However, EMR hadn't even bothered to let the contracts for
>>> refurbishment before the pandemic hit home. Had they done so the work
>>> probably couldn't have been cancelled.
>>>
>>
>> When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.
>>
>> Incidentally the 360/2s, ex-HConn, purchased by ROG for freight traffic,
>> have just been scrapped.
>
> Yes, I saw that. I guess it was a small sub-fleet that had been stored
> for years, and not in great condition. There are
> plenty of other EMUs coming off lease, and many might be in better condition.
>

Only stored for two years, and only 16 years old.

I guess one problem for those units was being a small fleet, rather like
the class 322s which over the years variously worked for Stansted Express,
WAGN, fNW, ScotRail, One, ScotRail again, Northern and finally back with GA
before withdrawals began recently.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 31/08/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.

Absolutely.

However both the GA and EMR franchises were "owned" by Abellio.

From June 2020 the 360s were progressively sent to Siemens in
Northampton to have their traction motors upgraded for 110 mph running.

Following this they returned to service on GA for some time - restricted
to 100 mph of course.

I would argue that if EMR were able to contract with Siemens for the
motor upgrades well ahead of receiving the units in service, then they
could have pushed ahead with contracts for the full interior upgrades as
well. Of course the latter would have been the greater expense. But they
would have been assured that the parent company would ensure that they
did indeed receive the promised units when needed so the investment
would not be at risk.

Ironically, the use of the 110 mph top speed has so far been restricted
to a few miles mainly between Bedford and Wellingborough. I'm not sure
of the line speed on the Down Fast between Wellingborough and Kettering
but some Class 360 services do use that - it may be 100 or 110 north of
Harrowden. But anyway by the time they reached 110 it would soon be time
to decelerate to negotiate a switch to the slows at Kettering South
Junction.

Of course this situation will change with the overhead line upgrades
between Bedford and London needed for the 125 mph bi-modes.

On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 10:51:57 +0100, Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> wrote:

>On 31/08/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.
>
>Absolutely.
>
>However both the GA and EMR franchises were "owned" by Abellio.
>
> From June 2020 the 360s were progressively sent to Siemens in
>Northampton to have their traction motors upgraded for 110 mph running.
>
>Following this they returned to service on GA for some time - restricted
>to 100 mph of course.
>
>I would argue that if EMR were able to contract with Siemens for the
>motor upgrades well ahead of receiving the units in service, then they
>could have pushed ahead with contracts for the full interior upgrades as
>well. Of course the latter would have been the greater expense. But they
>would have been assured that the parent company would ensure that they
>did indeed receive the promised units when needed so the investment
>would not be at risk.

I wonder if the reason was that they first wanted all the units to be mechanically upgraded before starting the interior
refurbishment? That probably has to be done in a more continuous process, and obviously by a different company.

In message <tepvc1$2559m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:51:57 on Thu, 1 Sep
2022, Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> remarked:
>On 31/08/2022 13:27, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> When the pandemic started, the 360 fleet were all still with GA.
>
>Absolutely.
>
>However both the GA and EMR franchises were "owned" by Abellio.
>
>From June 2020 the 360s were progressively sent to Siemens in
>Northampton to have their traction motors upgraded for 110 mph running.
>
>Following this they returned to service on GA for some time -
>restricted to 100 mph of course.
>
>I would argue that if EMR were able to contract with Siemens for the
>motor upgrades well ahead of receiving the units in service, then they
>could have pushed ahead with contracts for the full interior upgrades
>as well. Of course the latter would have been the greater expense. But
>they would have been assured that the parent company would ensure that
>they did indeed receive the promised units when needed so the
>investment would not be at risk.
>
>Ironically, the use of the 110 mph top speed has so far been restricted
>to a few miles mainly between Bedford and Wellingborough. I'm not sure
>of the line speed on the Down Fast between Wellingborough and Kettering
>but some Class 360 services do use that - it may be 100 or 110 north of
>Harrowden. But anyway by the time they reached 110 it would soon be
>time to decelerate to negotiate a switch to the slows at Kettering
>South Junction.
>
>Of course this situation will change with the overhead line upgrades
>between Bedford and London needed for the 125 mph bi-modes.

Is that because the bi-modes are expected to run at 125mph - and is the
OHL the only barrier to that currently?
--
Roland Perry

On 01/09/2022 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> Is that because the bi-modes are expected to run at 125mph - and is the
> OHL the only barrier to that currently? > --

I believe so.

The OHLE put in for the BedPan service was not expected at the time to
have to handle speeds in excess of 90mph but was subsequently deemed
adequate for a maximum of 100mph.

Only sections of the route between London and Bedford have linespeeds of
125 mph. There are of course other sections with various linespeeds in
excess of 100 mph.

All of which adds up but it's not as if the bi-modes would be running at
125mph from the outskirts of London to passing Bedford.

However running on diesel under the wires in order to keep to time might
be rather embarrassing. Likewise timetabling for a maximum 100mph speed.

In message <teqe36$26svb$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:03:13 on Thu, 1 Sep
2022, Guy <gslj@dsl.invalid> remarked:
>On 01/09/2022 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Is that because the bi-modes are expected to run at 125mph - and is
>>the OHL the only barrier to that currently? > --
>
>I believe so.
>
>The OHLE put in for the BedPan service was not expected at the time to
>have to handle speeds in excess of 90mph but was subsequently deemed
>adequate for a maximum of 100mph.
>
>Only sections of the route between London and Bedford have linespeeds
>of 125 mph.

OK, so it's not *only* the OHL which prevents 125mph all the way (well,
once up to speed outside the London suburbs)

>There are of course other sections with various linespeeds in excess of
>100 mph.
>
>All of which adds up but it's not as if the bi-modes would be running
>at 125mph from the outskirts of London to passing Bedford.
>
>However running on diesel under the wires in order to keep to time
>might be rather embarrassing. Likewise timetabling for a maximum 100mph
>speed.

I wonder if anyone has a diagram of which sections are which speed, and
those which will increase to 125mph with the pans up, so we can see
exactly how many minutes are involved in each scenario.
--
Roland Perry

On 02/09/2022 06:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has a diagram of which sections are which speed, and
> those which will increase to 125mph with the pans up, so we can see > exactly how many minutes are involved in each scenario.

I found some information on current line speeds here :-

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20September/London%20North%20Eastern%20Sectional%20Appendix%20September%202022.pdf

It's a large pdf.

The relevant section for the MML is in module LN4.doc starting at page 19

It clearly shows the current EMU limit of 100 mph wherever the line
speed otherwise exceeds 100 mph.

It's not a given but presumably the new OHLE will support all the
existing 100-125 mph sections.

Trying to accurately calculate exact minutes saved by running at 110 mph
or 125 mph rather than 100 mph would be a complex job involving
knowledge of acceleration and braking performance of the types of
rolling stock.

However I think we can say that it doesn't amount to a huge saving.

Even if there were no restrictions at all and infinite acceleration from
zero to maximum speed then the savings on the 50 miles between London
and Bedford would not be massive.

At 100 mph the journey would take 30 minutes
At 110 mph the journey would take ~27m 30s
At 125 mph the journey would take 24 minutes

In practice the time savings would be far less than this.